Author Topic: Durian seed  (Read 18507 times)

Future

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2012, 06:49:26 PM »
Seed received!  FedEx called me this morning and I picked it up right away.  He packaged it exactly according to one of the links posted here.  I dared to open the FedEx outer package back at my office.  Wow.  Had to take it home right away.  This evening I opened the package and realized the box inside was cut open already hence the strong smell.  I was thinking the smell was coming through the box.

So I open it up and....

4 large seeds and 6 small seeds.  The small ones I can seed where the root will emerge beginning to swell.  I have potted all 10 up in 4 inch or larger pots.  So my next question is...how sensitive are these to transplanting?  Tap root disturbance?  Should I put them in larger pots immediately or are 4 inch pos ok?  2 are in cloth posts, the rest plastic.

Any other advice on seedling care?

These may be the first Durian ever to make it to Bermuda.

Oh and the smell...I can see how it intimidates most people not used to it.  After a minute I could smell the fruity-ness of it.  I could eat this fruit.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 06:51:11 PM by Future »

red durian

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2012, 06:59:00 PM »
They are quite sensitive to root disturbance.  Probably in that size bag all you will have is a tap root, so when you remove the bag to up-pot your soil may all fall off.  Personally, I would go with a bag about 14" deep.

Future

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2012, 07:02:29 PM »
Noted.  Will prep larger pots and move them.  Are these normally treated like jackfruit and planted as soon as possible in their final location?  Has anyone fruited these in pots?  I have a small greenhouse to overwinter them but it is only 6 ft tall.  Eventually they have to go out on their own.  Lowest temperatures here are about 57 on a very cold winter day.  Average low is about 60F in he dead of winer.

How wind tolerant are durians?

HMHausman

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2012, 07:58:37 PM »
The seedlings I have grown have had some resistance to cold.....cold at least as you are likely to encounter.  Wind hasn't been too much of an issue either.  Biggest problem for us is phytophthora.  If my seedlings in the pot were knocked of their bench or were placed on the ground, it became just a matter of time until the plant died.  Perhaps you'll not have this issue in Bermuda.  To my knowledge, there haven't been any fruited in a pot.
Harry
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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2012, 10:42:16 PM »
Noted.  Will prep larger pots and move them.  Are these normally treated like jackfruit and planted as soon as possible in their final location?  Has anyone fruited these in pots?  I have a small greenhouse to overwinter them but it is only 6 ft tall.  Eventually they have to go out on their own.  Lowest temperatures here are about 57 on a very cold winter day.  Average low is about 60F in he dead of winer.

How wind tolerant are durians?

Seedling durians become very large trees. No way you are going to fruit them in a pot. Unless by a pot you mean a 24 inch box! They don't like wind when little, and prefer quite a bit of shade when small. Very senisitive to drying out of soil. Even large trees can be killed during drought. Make sure they get very consistent watering. I transplant them all the time without any problem. I disagree that they are root sensitive. But it's better to err on side of caution given the scarcity of material where you live.
Oscar

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2012, 09:03:21 AM »
Recently in malaysia I ate my way thru a lot of different cvs (real cvs) of durian as well as oodles of seedlings.

Anecdotally I am going along with the premise durian from a 60 year old tree is better than fruit from a five year old tree incl red prawn

I ate red prawn...yummy but not so yummy that it is worth the price tag compared to other less expensive cvs and seedling (kampong) durian

The rival to red prawn as considered the best is one out of johore Musang something

There were several I liked as much as red prawn.  As for what is the best tasting cv, with durian it really boils down to personal taste

When i was at Boa's durian farm a guy came in literally shaking with excitement as his favourite had just become available. He'd been waiting all year and the moment Bao called he got in his car and drove there to purchase. It was super-yummy.

Also Bao said go for fruit with wrinkled flesh as that is a sign it is from an older tree but post him telling me that I don't buy it.

But the age thing might be true. Went to friend's kampong outside Kota Baru and durians were falling from old seedling trees. Nothing i ate was better

in 1986 I successfully shipped out 1000 seeds of durian from bali .. so it can be done!
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Mike T

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2012, 09:19:41 AM »
Red Prawn did well one year in the Penang competition and D197  or musang king packs some clout in the quality department.
Old trees have better fruit alright with wrinklier flesh skin and more complex flavor.

red durian

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2012, 09:33:22 AM »


in 1986 I successfully shipped out 1000 seeds of durian from bali .. so it can be done!
[/quote]

How did you get so many seeds all at once?

tropical66

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2012, 10:27:54 AM »
Recently in malaysia I ate my way thru a lot of different cvs (real cvs) of durian as well as oodles of seedlings.

Anecdotally I am going along with the premise durian from a 60 year old tree is better than fruit from a five year old tree incl red prawn

I ate red prawn...yummy but not so yummy that it is worth the price tag compared to other less expensive cvs and seedling (kampong) durian

The rival to red prawn as considered the best is one out of johore Musang something

There were several I liked as much as red prawn.  As for what is the best tasting cv, with durian it really boils down to personal taste

When i was at Boa's durian farm a guy came in literally shaking with excitement as his favourite had just become available. He'd been waiting all year and the moment Bao called he got in his car and drove there to purchase. It was super-yummy.

Also Bao said go for fruit with wrinkled flesh as that is a sign it is from an older tree but post him telling me that I don't buy it.

But the age thing might be true. Went to friend's kampong outside Kota Baru and durians were falling from old seedling trees. Nothing i ate was better

in 1986 I successfully shipped out 1000 seeds of durian from bali .. so it can be done!

Hi Recher,

Durian Kampong can be found not only in Kota Bharu Kelantan.It also can be found in Perak, Johor and Pahang State and other state in Malaysia. This 3 state is among the best Durian Kampong producer. Some of the Durian Kampong tree is very old and more than 60 years old. Kampong or Kampung means village in Malay language . Durian Kampong actually means durian tree originally that grow from seeds and not a clones.

Cheers
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 08:38:11 PM by tropical66 »
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Recher

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2012, 03:56:33 PM »
I was aware of the kampung labeling. In Kuala Terengganu the laden durian trucks arrive and the sellers spread their wares. Always some kampung always the cheapest.

Can't wait to be back in kelantan for Ramadan when durian prices fall to one ringgit / 30 cents USA but then I got my friend and those are free.

I was surprised how many Cynometra his family were growing.
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Mike T

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2012, 04:06:53 PM »
There are many dishes that nam nam are used in.There is a big good quality type that sometimes appears in my local market (rusty's) that are worthwhile fresh.

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2012, 04:43:23 PM »
Recently in malaysia I ate my way thru a lot of different cvs (real cvs) of durian as well as oodles of seedlings.

If you have the info readily available, I would be most interested in a quick (or not so quick if the info isn't too difficult to provide) run down on how you are able to say, confidently, that the durian cultivars you tired were entitled to the coveted cv status.  Thanks in advance.
Harry
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Recher

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2012, 05:03:30 PM »
http://www.itfnet.org/gfruit/Templates%20English/durian.variety.htm

THREE DECADES OF DURIAN BREEDING PROGRAM IN ...
www.actahort.org/books/787/787_6.htmby P Kengkat - 2007 - Related articles
Durian breeding program was conducted in Thailand by using conventional breeding ... Clonal selection of existing commercial cultivars namely: 'Mon Thong', ...

Initially all were seedling selections from kampong trees. Remember tho that in say Malaysia there would have been tens of thousands to choose from. This is quite different than the backyard gardner who gets excited and believes their seedling in isolation is so good as to be named.

Later the government got in the act with planting, selecting, and trials.
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HMHausman

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2012, 06:49:44 PM »
Thanks for providing this documentation. However, reviewing it has left me with more questions than answers as to why you think that the term cultivar should be so vigorously defended.  First, I note the following;

Formal definitionMain article: International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants
The Cultivated Plant Code notes that the word cultivar is used in two different senses: first, as a "classification category" the cultivar is defined in Article 2 of the International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants (2009, 8th edition) as follows: The basic category of cultivated plants whose nomenclature is governed by this Code is the cultivar.[18] There are two other classification categories for cultigens, the grex[19] and the group.[20] The Code then defines a cultivar as a "taxonomic unit within the classification category of cultivar". This is the sense of cultivar that is most generally understood and which is used as a general definition.

A cultivar is an assemblage of plants that (a) has been selected for a particular character or combination of characters, (b) is distinct, uniform and stable in those characters, and (c) when propagated by appropriate means, retains those characters.

Your link is broken by adding the word "by" to the hyperlink, however removing the "by" from the  hyperlink you get:

THREE DECADES OF DURIAN BREEDING PROGRAM IN THAILAND AND ITS THREE NEWLY RECOMMENDED F1 HYBRIDS
Authors:    S. Somsri, S. Vichitrananda, P. Kengkat, P. Koonjanthuk, S. Chunchim, S. Sesuma, S. Jintanawongse, S. Salakphet
Keywords:    D. zibethinus, recommended F1 hybrids, interspecific hybrids
Abstract:
Durian breeding program was conducted in Thailand by using conventional breeding procedures. Durian germplasm was surveyed and collected from various horticultural research centers of the Department of Agriculture, such as Chanthaburi, Surat Thani, Trang and Yala Horticultural Research Centers (HRC) between 1956 and 2000. Characterization and evaluation were investigated by using morphological and DNA fingerprinting. Clonal selection of existing commercial cultivars namely: 'Mon Thong', 'Chani', 'Kan Yao', 'Kradum Thong' and chance-seedling trees was conducted between 1986-1988 at Chanthaburi HRC, by means of quality contest. The three selected trees based on their specific characters were released and distributed to the farmers. At the Chanthaburi HRC, at least 68 cultivars were collected, characterized and evaluated. Eighteen cultivars were selected to be parental plants for 55 reciprocal crosses and produced 7,634 F1 hybrids seedlings between 1986 and 1990. During 1999 to 2006, some of these F1 hybrids were characterized and evaluated on 26 characters; however only five characters (fruit weight, percentage of flesh, aborted seed, flesh thickness and eating quality) were the main criteria for F1 selection along with early, moderate, late maturity, percentage of fruit setting and yield. The variation of F1 hybrids was investigated and also, the Thai Durian standard (1998) was applied to use for selection. The 29 promising F1 hybrids were confirmed for their quality at least three years and compared with the commercial variety for seven years. The first three promising lines were selected to be new recommended F1 hybrid cultivars, namely, 'Chanthaburi 1', '2' and '3'. The DNA fingerprinting for these promising lines was studied to identify their specific characters or banding patterns. Also, 253 selved promising lines of F2 generation, 4,278 F1 lines from 51 new crosses between 1998 and 2002, 110 interspecific hybrids from 45 crosses between 1988 and 1992 and 21 crosses in 2000 are being investigated to produce new F1 hybrids with high tolerance to Phytophthora palmivora, high quality, yield and varying fruit quality and size to meet the requirements of the consumers 

Without reading the entire article, it seems to me that they took existing cultivars and used them to develop new F1 hybrids. They came up with new hybrids with I presume their own cultivar names and distributed them to farmers.  That doesn't mean that the trees that they used in their analysis to obtain the parentage of the new hybrids were cultivars as you seem to want to define them.  Reference is made to having contests to see which ones people liked the best.  Then the selected ones were used in the breeding program.  Do you think that the fruit/trees they collected to begin breeding process were "real cultivars" as you want to define them? Seems to me that what was done was a gathering of the existing commercial and other "cultivars" as they called them and then they began a process to properly ID and analyze these for future breeding purpose.  I am thinking that you would not want to call the original collection of durian plant material "cultivars" and would reserve that term for only the new hybrids they distributed.  Am I correct?

The actual definition of the term cultivar, which I understand is a combination of the terms cultigen and variety, seems to be pretty broad and somewhat forgiving. I am not saying a first fruit from a backyard should be immediately entitled to "cultivar" status......but I am equally of the opinion that people much smarter and involved in the horticutural world than I am are using the term "cultivar"  with considerably greater laxity than you would like.
Harry
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Mike T

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2012, 07:59:36 PM »
The 3 chanthaburis made world wide headlines about 4 years ago due to a lack of aroma.They got forgotten quickly when laplaes got some press.The chanthaburi headlines were a bit misleading in that 90 cv's were not in the lineage and they were not really stabilized.Go look for Chanthaburi 1,2 and 3 fruit in Chanthaburi itself and you are likely to come up empty.I wonder how many farmers were keen.3.5 years ago the seed gastapo stole my Chanthaburi seeds at an Airport in Sydney.The letter of apology for their bungling ways was cold comfort after the seeds had already gone to 'the chamber.'

Future

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2012, 10:17:25 PM »
Noted.  Will prep larger pots and move them.  Are these normally treated like jackfruit and planted as soon as possible in their final location?  Has anyone fruited these in pots?  I have a small greenhouse to overwinter them but it is only 6 ft tall.  Eventually they have to go out on their own.  Lowest temperatures here are about 57 on a very cold winter day.  Average low is about 60F in he dead of winer.

How wind tolerant are durians?

Seedling durians become very large trees. No way you are going to fruit them in a pot. Unless by a pot you mean a 24 inch box! They don't like wind when little, and prefer quite a bit of shade when small. Very senisitive to drying out of soil. Even large trees can be killed during drought. Make sure they get very consistent watering. I transplant them all the time without any problem. I disagree that they are root sensitive. But it's better to err on side of caution given the scarcity of material where you live.

Noted.  My problem is a permanent plant to plant them.  My options include planting on leased land in a buried 25 gallon cloth pot or direct seeding on leased land or guerrilla planting on public land.  The land I own is just not suitable (ex quarry with only inches of soil).  This goes for most of my trees actually....I may split my seeds among these options.

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2012, 01:14:49 AM »
You can hold the seedling durian in a pot for a couple years, as long as you use a deep pot for the tap root.
Oscar

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2012, 09:57:12 AM »


in 1986 I successfully shipped out 1000 seeds of durian from bali .. so it can be done!

How did you get so many seeds all at once?
[/quote]

I bought all the durian available at the Ubud market and then had the ladies carry them back to the hotal
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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2012, 10:12:13 AM »


in 1986 I successfully shipped out 1000 seeds of durian from bali .. so it can be done!

How did you get so many seeds all at once?

I bought all the durian available at the Ubud market and then had the ladies carry them back to the hotal
[/quote]

Given that in 2006 food prices were about 1/3rd what they were in 2012 I guess in 1986 prices were probably quite good.  I mention this because, if you wanted to buy all the durian in a market in Ubud today you'd have to haul some money.  Bali (in general) is more expensive than Java / Sumatra, and Ubud is probably the costliest place to buy things in Bali.  I think these days the asking price would be about 60,000 rupiah or about $6 each.

I wish I'd been in Ubud in '86.  There was a lot of negative changes between '06 and '12
What's that got to do with Jose Andres $10 brussel sprouts?

Future

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2012, 10:15:39 AM »
No sign of germination yet.  I have started discussions about some national trust land for long term planting of some of these and a few other items.

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2012, 11:15:38 AM »
No sign of germination yet.  I have started discussions about some national trust land for long term planting of some of these and a few other items.

That sounds promising. It would be so much easier if you could just import some grafted trees.

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2012, 03:33:24 AM »
That doesn't mean that the trees that they used in their analysis to obtain the parentage of the new hybrids were cultivars as you seem to want to define them.  Reference is made to having contests to see which ones people liked the best.  Then the selected ones were used in the breeding program.  Do you think that the fruit/trees they collected to begin breeding process were "real cultivars" as you want to define them? Seems to me that what was done was a gathering of the existing commercial and other "cultivars" as they called them and then they began a process to properly ID and analyze these for future breeding purpose.  I am thinking that you would not want to call the original collection of durian plant material "cultivars" and would reserve that term for only the new hybrids they distributed.  Am I correct?

YES.... THO IF THE ORIGINAL COLLECTED MATERIAL FOR BREEDING PURPOSES WAS IN AND OF ITSELF TRIALED SOME MAY WELL HAVE BEEN WORTHY OF CV STATUS.... IF SOMEONE'S ORIGINAL BACKYARD SEEDLING HAS BEEN PROPAGATED AND DISTRIBUTED AND PROPAGATED AND DISTRIBUTED BECAUSE IT IS WELL LIKED THEN IT TOO CAN BE CONSIDERED CV STATUS .. AN EXAMPLE WOULD BE THE COCAINE CLONE GROWN THRUOUT AMAZONIA... WHAT I OBJECT TO IS ALL THE PEOPLE WHO GET EXCITED ABOUT ''THEIR SEEDLING'' WHEN IN FACT IT IS NOT THAT BIG A DEAL.
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HMHausman

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2012, 04:58:40 PM »
That doesn't mean that the trees that they used in their analysis to obtain the parentage of the new hybrids were cultivars as you seem to want to define them.  Reference is made to having contests to see which ones people liked the best.  Then the selected ones were used in the breeding program.  Do you think that the fruit/trees they collected to begin breeding process were "real cultivars" as you want to define them? Seems to me that what was done was a gathering of the existing commercial and other "cultivars" as they called them and then they began a process to properly ID and analyze these for future breeding purpose.  I am thinking that you would not want to call the original collection of durian plant material "cultivars" and would reserve that term for only the new hybrids they distributed.  Am I correct?
YES.... THO IF THE ORIGINAL COLLECTED MATERIAL FOR BREEDING PURPOSES WAS IN AND OF ITSELF TRIALED SOME MAY WELL HAVE BEEN WORTHY OF CV STATUS.... IF SOMEONE'S ORIGINAL BACKYARD SEEDLING HAS BEEN PROPAGATED AND DISTRIBUTED AND PROPAGATED AND DISTRIBUTED BECAUSE IT IS WELL LIKED THEN IT TOO CAN BE CONSIDERED CV STATUS .. AN EXAMPLE WOULD BE THE COCAINE CLONE GROWN THRUOUT AMAZONIA... WHAT I OBJECT TO IS ALL THE PEOPLE WHO GET EXCITED ABOUT ''THEIR SEEDLING'' WHEN IN FACT IT IS NOT THAT BIG A DEAL.

Well, it may not be that big of a deal....but then again it might be a very big deal. That seedling may repreent the world's greatest jakfruit and with further distribution, and being liked by others and propagated, even you would possibly elevate to CV status.  Seems to me that there is absolutely nothing wrong with naming a seedling.  Giving it a name does not confer CV status.  I liken it to the world of orchids.  Anyone can name a hybrid orchid and have the name registered with the authority that maintains that name info.....the Royal Horticultural Society in England, I think.  You can register the hybrid, but in order to get any real status or accolade, you have to present to an orchid committee judging and be considered for the various orchid awards.........First Class Certificate, Award of Merit, Highly Commended Certificate, etc. If you represnt your newly named seedling as having CV status, that would be very wrong.  But otherwise, I think this outrage at seedling naming seems to be a bit over blown.
Harry
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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2012, 05:32:06 PM »
Seeing as my thread has been hijacked, I take the liberty to agree with Harry.  These arbitrary naming rules are very much overblown.

Mike T

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Re: Durian seed
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2012, 05:38:45 PM »
Recher what happened to the bali durian seeds? Are fruiting trees now or were they used for rootstock? I thought bali durian at that time would not have been great quality for rootstock or seedling tree.
I treat seedling very roughly.I rip them outa the pot and hack off the taproot or chop a 3 ft potplant down to 12 inches and jam them back in for when I am ready to graft.I rarely have casualties.I recently used a dozen luang,gumpun,montong,penanag 88 and gaan yeow seedlings as mulch to recycle their pots for Garcinia and Eugenia seeds from forum colleagues.Some did not want to die and were sprouting in spite of lying around soil-less in the elements.
I still think being very selective with seeds is important as durian are very diverse genetically.Pick those with more phytophthora resistance for rootstock and those with top fruit quality and the closest 'climate match' to you area.Old seedling lines that are stable are less risky than recently developed types not grown from seeds.
Naming of varieties is very important in orchids and roses where there are big bucks to be made.The Malaysian have been flogging Thai durians forever and giving them their own names and even in malaysia the list could well be squeezed down to about 150 distinct named durian cv's if they check them all closely.

 

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