Author Topic: Not enough Durian Discussion  (Read 54351 times)

Jamesther

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #100 on: April 09, 2021, 09:47:59 AM »
I think the key to shaping durian without retarding the onset of production is to incrementally top and open space within the tree, cutting as little as possible at a time.  Force the branches to grow out, giving them more light and air, perhaps pruning lightly every 3 months instead of heavier pruning once or twice a year.  Actually, we probably top twice a year but continually open the inside.
Peter

Peter,

Is this video an example of what you mean by “open the inside”

https://youtu.be/NfTmnS5gHBM


James


Finca La Isla

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #101 on: April 09, 2021, 03:25:01 PM »
The video does something similar.  I don’t understand why they don’t cut closer to the branch as I think that such cuts heal better.  They are opening nicely, we do the same but maybe not as much at a time.
Peter

Finca La Isla

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #102 on: April 09, 2021, 03:33:47 PM »
I use microorganisms to help breakdown the biomass.  I’m working with a trinity, if you will, of biomass, biochar, and microorganisms.  As far as the microorganisms are concerned the biochar is a refuge to support them.  The consistent application is to maintain the healthy flora balance.  The forest is a big place and microorganisms are going to balance out but the farm has more isolated pockets of micro flora if your trees are spread out with grass or dry soil between them.  I’ve had good success using EM or similar products.
Peter

Saone

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #103 on: April 10, 2021, 08:56:27 AM »
Four acres is pret. good size really. Lots of commercial durian farms in Malaysia are about that size and they are doing pretty well.
Fortunately durian is easy to top work and thus very agile. Superior material can easily be used to convert trees that don’t show a lot of promise. I think 2-3 years to be back in production at a commercial level. This last year I’ve planted 15 select seedlings from Penang, hoping for something fantastic!
I have 3 trees older than 25 years in production. From those 3 I harvested 600kg the last season!
Peter

How you get the seedlings from Penang?

Saone

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #104 on: April 10, 2021, 09:02:21 AM »
Another question. I live in the tropics and Jackfruit grows a plenty here, But in my arrea, central vietnam, there doesnt seem to be much durian fruit trees around. Would they not grow decent if jackfruit can grow around? The weather here is chilly, 10c in winter, and mid 30's to low 40's celcius in the summer.

Mike T

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #105 on: April 10, 2021, 09:13:46 AM »
They are in the south and maybe the temps get a bit lower than 10c and make it a bit cool for durian. Jacks can take 6c or more less than durian. Do you have mangosteen and breadfruit>

Finca La Isla

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #106 on: April 10, 2021, 12:41:35 PM »
Charts of areas where durian is grown in Vietnam show only the far south being appropriate.

I brought seeds from Penang of my favorite durians.
Peter

cassowary

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #107 on: April 10, 2021, 10:06:04 PM »
Another question. I live in the tropics and Jackfruit grows a plenty here, But in my arrea, central vietnam, there doesnt seem to be much durian fruit trees around. Would they not grow decent if jackfruit can grow around? The weather here is chilly, 10c in winter, and mid 30's to low 40's celcius in the summer.

Try and plant some durian seeds they will be able to handle 10C.
Place it directly on the ground and protect the seeds with a plastic bottle (both ends cut of, like a cylinder) to reduce rodent damage and mulch around but do not cover the seed. The de-composting mulch keeps the soil a little bit warmer in the winter, can add compost under the mulch to if mulch is hard to get (probobly lot's of rice husk where you are).
I suggest direct planting becuase then the tree will get a deep taproot and is more likely to survive winter since temp is a lot more stable down in the soil rather then in a pot above soil. Protect from wind if you have strong winds.

I use microorganisms to help breakdown the biomass.  I’m working with a trinity, if you will, of biomass, biochar, and microorganisms.  As far as the microorganisms are concerned the biochar is a refuge to support them.  The consistent application is to maintain the healthy flora balance.  The forest is a big place and microorganisms are going to balance out but the farm has more isolated pockets of micro flora if your trees are spread out with grass or dry soil between them.  I’ve had good success using EM or similar products.
Peter

So ideally the food forest should be like a natural forest but that's not really practical due to other needs such as picking etc. I'll do a test with native M.O. innoculat in water solution under a couple of young durian tree's that was planted in a guinegrass field.
I guess the milpa cycle is a model that would create the char in the field https://mayaforestgardeners.org/forestgardening.php
But I feel like burning the whole field reduces fertility long term and animals gets hurt or have to move out, so adding char like you do is better in my opinion.

I guess the benefit of char is that it will keep it's porous structure in the soil for a very long time, something that rooting wood won't do unless heart wood of merbau etc.
So maybe the heart of hardwood could serve the same purouse? Maybe not becuase it's so dense. Does heart of hardwood get porous when chared or does it just dry out and stay dense?
Just pondering on an alternative to bio-char without burning anything. Fukuoka got great yelds without char so maybe some of the burried hard wood stayed very long in ground without rooting and acted like char?

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Finca La Isla

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #108 on: April 10, 2021, 11:28:39 PM »
Buried wood can last a long time and be beneficial.
But char...a cubic cm of char produced at a high temperature can have the surface of a football field!
Char found in the terra prieta of the amazon is more than 1000 years old.  So a single application can last indefinitely.  There’s a video called 'El dorado' that is pretty inspirational.   We make char with prunings in an adapted steel drum called a TLUD that works at 800C and produces char rapidly without smoke.
I’m a fan of Fukuoka, he’s been an inspiration since the 80's, but we’re moving along within a plethora of ideas and technologies, trying not to be overwhelmed.
Peter

cassowary

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #109 on: April 11, 2021, 09:35:17 PM »
Buried wood can last a long time and be beneficial.
But char...a cubic cm of char produced at a high temperature can have the surface of a football field!
Char found in the terra prieta of the amazon is more than 1000 years old.  So a single application can last indefinitely.  There’s a video called 'El dorado' that is pretty inspirational.   We make char with prunings in an adapted steel drum called a TLUD that works at 800C and produces char rapidly without smoke.
I’m a fan of Fukuoka, he’s been an inspiration since the 80's, but we’re moving along within a plethora of ideas and technologies, trying not to be overwhelmed.
Peter

Looked at the documentary, now I get the name "Finca La Isla":D. Those civilisations then probobly cooked their food with a TLUD or similar and then returned that to the field. I don't cook food so can't do that but others cooking their food could do this with ease.
The man who was selling the tierra preta said every 20 years it's regenerated it enough to sell again. He didn't say if he added char but I assue he just left the land re-vegetate itself and the 20cm of T.P. he left can sustain the re-growth cycle with plenty of nutrients and char innoculated with biome.
So in 20 years we will probobly have a thick layer of T.P. for our maturing durian and if we add char that could provide "shelter' for M. O. during drought and reduce nutrient run off from the decomposing forest litter. So fukuoka probobly buried logs in his terraces to create that T.P. structure deeper down that was not there and then rely on the natural cycle of growth and litter to add new ontop. By doing that getting yeilds faster and also long term (his son still get's decent yeilds).

"trying not to be overwhelmed" Yes same here, trying to keep it very simple, otherwise I will probly not last long enough.

I have spent many hours trying to find a micro. org. lab analaysis of native soil underneath durian in it's native area, but have only found indications of what typ of species of micro. org. is in dipterocarp forest. If anyone have found something like that please share :D
For now I am relying on the native micro biome here as an inoculant.

"dipterocarps are ectomycorrhizal trees, and their seedlings are linked by a network of fungal hyphae that transfer nutrients from decaying organic matter to seedlings."
https://unitedplantsavers.org/restoration-of-the-heart-lessons-from-the-all-mighty-shorea-faguetiana-tree/

So I am fairly sure this would include durio sp., just gotta get that myco thriving instead of guinegrass :/ and then the mother durian can nurse it's own durian seedlings :D

I think one step I missed early on was to not establish pionerring tree's before planting durian in the grass field, it's been almost impossible keeping them alive without supplemental water and mulch.
Planting out pioneering tree's since a couple years ago and some durian looks a lot better now with some shade and supression of the allelopathic grass.

Local durians still dropping a little bit but they haven't been the greatest, a bit less sweet and mushy aril maybe due to the rainy weeks. The same tree's produced great fruit early on in the season.
Idk how the durian is going up at the highlands here, a couple of years ago I got fresh durian in june from Julatten.
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Mike T

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #110 on: April 12, 2021, 12:14:31 AM »
I am more of a sceptic than optimist when it comes to new way of enriching soil and just how good some of the espoused ideas are in tropical rainy climates. We know the speed and sequence of nutrients in most areas and that most nutrients in rainforest are quickly recycled with most being in the trees themselves and a little in the A horizon veneer. Some alluvials and basalt derived soils are different of course. Mulch and getting carbon and organic material on the surface is of course a key thing for regulating nutrients and making the soil alive. I believe most of the key microoraganism will just show up if you have the right conditions.

cassowary

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #111 on: April 12, 2021, 07:23:35 PM »
I am more of a sceptic than optimist when it comes to new way of enriching soil and just how good some of the espoused ideas are in tropical rainy climates. We know the speed and sequence of nutrients in most areas and that most nutrients in rainforest are quickly recycled with most being in the trees themselves and a little in the A horizon veneer. Some alluvials and basalt derived soils are different of course. Mulch and getting carbon and organic material on the surface is of course a key thing for regulating nutrients and making the soil alive. I believe most of the key microoraganism will just show up if you have the right conditions.

Adding garden waste and char from cooking activity predates any chemical ammendment to soil that is used today.  I am sceptical to more complex methods such as aerated composting teas, activated char and micro org in water solution or dry poweder since these increase the cost and labour significantly. But I am willing to do a trial with a small control group and see if the cost and labour comes out with a net gain in yeild over a number of years.

"I believe most of the key microoraganism will just show up if you have the right conditions."
When it rains here it smells the same as it does in parts of Indonesia I have been to and that could probloby indicate similar microbiome. I am talking about inside the rainforest, maybe it's spores or metabolites from the decaying leaf litter. So I agree with you, seams to make sense.

Apples are fruits and does have bacteria inside of it it seams so woulden't it make sense that durian would have that too?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31396172/
"Interestingly, fruit pulp and seeds were bacterial hot spots, while the peel was less colonized"
So maybe wet core in durian fruit could be reduced by a specific environment (it's native one?).
I don't think "too much rain" is the reason for wet core in durian since it rains in Borneo and Indonesia too when the fruit is on and I have never opend a durian with wet core in Indonesia from a fruit that was picked from a food forest (can verify easily becuase I see them climb the tree and get the durian, and Iv eaten hundreds). But here is AU iv seen and tried many durians with wet core from trees growing in a orchard with lawn cover and low bio diversity.

Maybe someone have experienced reduction in disease of the durian fruit when converting from lawn cover to food forest?!
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Saone

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #112 on: April 14, 2021, 08:12:44 AM »
They are in the south and maybe the temps get a bit lower than 10c and make it a bit cool for durian. Jacks can take 6c or more less than durian. Do you have mangosteen and breadfruit>

Trying to grow mangosteen where I am as well langsat. There are some big bread fruit around my area.

Cassowary I will try that out.

ben mango

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #113 on: April 15, 2021, 12:35:41 AM »
Every durian lover should go to Borneo at least once and try some of the more wild species and hybrids. The range of flavors of these fruits is memorizing. Davao is also quite the durian destination. there is a durian statue outside the airport, you will see people unloading truck fulls and the streets are lined with vendors in several parts of the city.

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #114 on: April 15, 2021, 05:13:11 AM »
How do you all rate the red prawn durian against the other heavy weights such as musang king, black thorn etc?

jimreevescairns

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #115 on: April 20, 2021, 05:30:27 PM »
I have only had it in Penang. From young and really old trees. Unique and fabulous flavours - the fruit off the old trees had bluish marbleing and made our mouths tingle. Apparently red prawn tastes different when grown elsewhere - I have one of fruit forest grafts but no fruit yet. Mike has a fruiting one grown in FNQ soil

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #116 on: April 20, 2021, 08:01:39 PM »
I have only had it in Penang. From young and really old trees. Unique and fabulous flavours - the fruit off the old trees had bluish marbleing and made our mouths tingle. Apparently red prawn tastes different when grown elsewhere - I have one of fruit forest grafts but no fruit yet. Mike has a fruiting one grown in FNQ soil

Jim thanks for the response, a few of the heavy weights of the local durian scene have advised me not to bother with red prawn due to being a shy fruiter despite being a very vigorous tree.  Sounds like the ones in penang are great!!! Im also learning from the same people it seems that local conditions and soils play a HUGE role in the quality, taste and fruiting ability of each cultivar and the stuff that performs well in maylasia doesn't always do well and fruit well here.  Certainly it is a very interesting fruit and im always looking to learn from those in the know of what they have already found about performance in our area.

Finca La Isla

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #117 on: April 20, 2021, 08:46:43 PM »
In Malaysia as well, the quality can vary.  Not all of their durians work well everywhere either.  Their agricultural department has recommendations regarding the best durians to plant in a given area and which to avoid.
In the end, all plantings, to some degree, are an experiment.
Peter

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #118 on: April 20, 2021, 08:51:47 PM »


My last durian of the season and it is a really good gumpun with shrivelled seeds.

jimreevescairns

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #119 on: April 20, 2021, 11:31:04 PM »
Mouthwatering Mike! Few more years for mine. Have you ever tried the “sunan “ ? That’s probably the most likely to fruit first out of the grafts I have . Indonesian one apparently

Mike T

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #120 on: April 20, 2021, 11:42:40 PM »
I am pretty sure I have tried them at Cape Tribulation with Colin Gray. My memories of the taste are a bit hazy but I do remember that they were good.

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #121 on: April 27, 2021, 01:37:04 AM »
Question for yall with mature trees how big are your grafted varieties getting without pruning? I realise they can be pruned down to 3m or so but those who have grafted monthong for example left unpruned what size are you seeing?

Internet information is all over the place i have seen some references say 8m up to 20m for a grafted tree which is obviously a huge difference.  Im planting mine at 13m spacing so that they have plenty of room and sunlight.

sunny

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #122 on: April 27, 2021, 07:45:01 AM »
I would not add any organics to the soil of a durian. The ones that died in my place all had nice soil mixed with organic material.

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #123 on: April 27, 2021, 01:51:10 PM »
I have a Grafted Mongthong that is 4.5 years old.  I pruned it at one year and another two times on the way up to shape it.  Now I’ve let it go and it is about 9m already.  13m spacing sounds good to me. To get a good shape it’s critical that direct sunlight hits the sides of the tree.

I know that in SE Asia manures have a bad reputation regarding the potential to foment root disease with durian.  In Malaysia they use organic compost that has no manure.  We have always used lots of biomass and some mixed manures, ideally aged.  At least here I have not seen any durian trees affected by root disease.  Our soil is about 6.2 ph and we apply some Ca.
Peter

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #124 on: April 27, 2021, 04:08:36 PM »
Thanks peter I plan to shape my trees as well and 9m high sounds good, 20m high would be a bit much.

My soil ph is 4.7 which is a little on the low end might add some lime first.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2021, 07:18:50 PM by Gone tropo »