Turpentine Mango Seedlings: How long before they reach grafting size?

[nighthawk0911@yahoo.com]

Just wondering about how long it takes for Turpentine seeds to grow to grafting size?

[Cookie Monster]

Mango seedling can be grafted 3 weeks after sprouting (while still tender and "red stage") with high rate of success. The seed generally has a store of energy for 2 flushes, so if you can graft on the first flush, there is still enough energy to push the scion to a full flush. That flush is then used to provide energy to the tree.

Just wondering about how low it takes for Turpentine seeds to grow to 3 gallon grafting size?

[Future]

Mango seedling can be grafted 3 weeks after sprouting (while still tender and "red stage") with high rate of success. The seed generally has a store of energy for 2 flushes, so if you can graft on the first flush, there is still enough energy to push the scion to a full flush. That flush is then used to provide energy to the tree.

Just wondering about how low it takes for Turpentine seeds to grow to 3 gallon grafting size?

This is good info....did you get my PM?

[Cookie Monster]

Just got it. I don't normally check that email addy. Best is to use the messaging feature here on the forum.

[spaugh]

Mango seedling can be grafted 3 weeks after sprouting (while still tender and "red stage") with high rate of success. The seed generally has a store of energy for 2 flushes, so if you can graft on the first flush, there is still enough energy to push the scion to a full flush. That flush is then used to provide energy to the tree.

Just wondering about how low it takes for Turpentine seeds to grow to 3 gallon grafting size?

Single bud or small scions?  It seems like the seedli gs are really small to be grafting to at that point no?  Need steady hands?

[vincenton]

I"m also curious also as how it can be done on such small seedling.

Thanks
Vincent.

[Cookie Monster]

Small scions and depends on the cultivar. Monoembryonic seedlings are generally sufficiently thick. For polyembryonic seedlings (which are thinner), there is a technique where one tips the scion donor tree before planting the seed to produce thin shoots. I think the trick is to tip just after a flush point / node (vs below it), which produces a large amount of thin shoots.

When I've grafted recently sprouted seedlings like this, I've always favored monoembryonic seedlings. I know nurseries like turpentine (which is polyembryonic), but I've had excellent success with monoembryonic seedlings, such as glenn.

Mango seedling can be grafted 3 weeks after sprouting (while still tender and "red stage") with high rate of success. The seed generally has a store of energy for 2 flushes, so if you can graft on the first flush, there is still enough energy to push the scion to a full flush. That flush is then used to provide energy to the tree.

Just wondering about how low it takes for Turpentine seeds to grow to 3 gallon grafting size?

Single bud or small scions?  It seems like the seedli gs are really small to be grafting to at that point no?  Need steady hands?

[Orkine]

Called stone rafting
See this video, one of several on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC9ICv9LMlQ

A forum member, Simon, undertook a study with double stone grafts in California.  Posted a lot of good info.  I believe his experience in CA was that the plant tried to flower and fruit way to young due to conditions in CA.  I am sure you can find the post if you search for "double stone" on the forum.

[simon_grow]

Yup, I agree with everything Cookiemonster and Orkine said. I did quite a few Doube Stone Grafts and some stone grafts and had an extremely high rate of success. I do not recommend the DSG technique anymore because the plants were too precocious and long term survival was very low.

My new experiments with innarching two seedlings together, one preferably being Polyembryonic has shown great success so far. Grafting young trees with mature scions in SoCal is a bad idea because they will try to flower and Fruit too young.

I also prefer grafting onto Monoembryonic seedlings because the seedlings are much thicker in girth compared to polyembryonic seedlings.

When grafting newly sprouted seedlings, you have to be very gentle as the seedlings are super juicy and soft like a bean sprout.

Pruning above an intercalation will yield many smaller shoots like Cookiemonster said. Here’s the details:
http://www.growables.org/information/documents/MangoPruningStrategies.pdf

Simon

[vincenton]

Thanks, i'll do some reading.

Vincent.

[Future]

Thanks Jeff and Simon.  For years I pruned above growth rings (intercalation) not knowing any better and it does yield more shoots.  Recently I was advised to prune below to limit the shoots and avoid creating weak points in the tree.  With a major project on my hands to propagate as many trees as possible within a few weeks, I now am thinking to do both.  That is, prune above the growth ring to induce as many shoots as possible to harvest and then prune below the growth ring to ideally get 3-4 shoots that will form the permanent branches.  This woukd delay growth somewhat but sounds like a decent trade off.  It helps my case that all my rootstock is likely polyembryonic.  Not much I can do about that so long term survival will be tested...

[spaugh]

Small scions and depends on the cultivar. Monoembryonic seedlings are generally sufficiently thick. For polyembryonic seedlings (which are thinner), there is a technique where one tips the scion donor tree before planting the seed to produce thin shoots. I think the trick is to tip just after a flush point / node (vs below it), which produces a large amount of thin shoots.

When I've grafted recently sprouted seedlings like this, I've always favored monoembryonic seedlings. I know nurseries like turpentine (which is polyembryonic), but I've had excellent success with monoembryonic seedlings, such as glenn.

Mango seedling can be grafted 3 weeks after sprouting (while still tender and "red stage") with high rate of success. The seed generally has a store of energy for 2 flushes, so if you can graft on the first flush, there is still enough energy to push the scion to a full flush. That flush is then used to provide energy to the tree.

Just wondering about how low it takes for Turpentine seeds to grow to 3 gallon grafting size?

Single bud or small scions?  It seems like the seedli gs are really small to be grafting to at that point no?  Need steady hands?

Ok, I tried it on a small Haden seedling with winters 20222 scion.  The wonters already was pushing a bunch of small new shoots.

[behlgarden]

Jeff, would it be prudent to do a veneer instead of cleft on newly sprouted seedling? also, do the scion has to be fresh tender growth too? I got 6 manila seedlings that just sprouted, I want to graft them, need to know before beheading them.

[behlgarden]

Just watched the video. the key is to have humid green house, on my, where do I get that from? I have a greenhouse but I cant maintain humidity, LOL

Brad? how would do you it? Maintain Humidity?

[Cookie Monster]

Cleft is best on the new sprouts. Veneer can be a challenge due to how soft the wood is. Use fully hardened scions (not tender red-stage ones). Tender scions die too quickly. Fully hardened scions can last longer (to wait for cambium growth).

No need for a greenhouse. However, if you want to increase your chances of a take, you can leave 2 leaves on the scion, cut such that only about 1/3 of each leaf remains, and wrap the entire 1 gallon container in a plastic bag. Keep in the shade until scion starts to grow, then remove bag and move to sunny area.

Nonetheless, just a typical cleft graft (with no leaves on the scion) should give you 50% take or better.

[behlgarden]

thanks Jeff. only worry is if graft fails, there goes the seedling, LOL, hard to grow those suckers for us. I need to get better at it. I get good germination in sandwich bags, gets roots sprouting, after that I think my potting medium is not right. what is recommended?

[spaugh]

Just watched the video. the key is to have humid green house, on my, where do I get that from? I have a greenhouse but I cant maintain humidity, LOL

Brad? how would do you it? Maintain Humidity?

I put it in my greenhouse and set the humidistat to 60% and temperature to 85.  Could probably just stick it in a mostly shady area for a few weeks and slowly work it into more sun.  My greenhouse has 50% shade over it.  Seems to work well for mango grafts. Have never done any this small.  And the scion wasnt hardened so who knows if it will grow.  This is all experimental for me. 

[spaugh]

By the way, I found that putting the seeds directly into pots is best fo sprouting seeds.  They pop easy, I have a couple hundred sprouted easy in the GH.  The dirt dries out too fast if left outside especially in the sun.  The other thing to do use tall pots so the tap root can get down there where it stays wet.