Watering miracle fruit with vinegar water?

[simon_grow]

The tap water here in San Diego has a pH of about 8.2.  I can drop the pH of my tap water to 5.0 by adding one tablespoon of distilled vinegar to a gallon of water. I was wondering if it would be ok to continually water with this vinegar water or if anything will start accumulating in the soil that will be detrimental to my plant?

Should I flush my potted MF every once in a while or should I alternate watering with tap water and vinegar water? Is there another, safer way to lower the pH of my water that is easy and cheap? I already use rainwater whenever I have it available. Thanks!
Simon

[CoPlantNut]

Vinegar water will not add anything bad to the soil in my experience-- but it won't permanently lower the pH of your potting mix either.  It typically takes a couple different kinds of acid to effectively buffer your high-pH water to keep it acidic over time.  The water I get out of the tap is pH 7.5-8.0 and if I mix it with vinegar I can make it whatever pH I want-- but after a day or two, the pH rises again unless I use multiple stronger acids.

I use a commercially-prepared pH adjusting product consisting of phosphoric and citric acid; when I add this to my water and measure the pH in 1, 2, 4 or 8 days the pH remains stable and my miracle fruit plants seem much happier because of it.  As for expense, I mix up about 80 gallons per week of pH 5.5-adjusted water and 1 gallon of acid ($30) lasts me about 4 years-- I'd call that cheap.

   Kevin

[TropicalFruitHunters]

Kevin...I need to do this as well in the GH during winter when too cold to collect rainwater.  Would you mind explaining the products and your measurements in more detail please?  Thanks!  Jay

[bangkok]

When you add peat moss, pine needles, pine bark, lemonpeel , coffee etc. to the soil then will the water not get acidic from that before the plant can drink it?

[bradflorida]

CoPlantNut -

What is the name of the product you're using?

Thanks,
Brad

[Doglips]

Vinegar breaks down, thats why it is not permanently cumulative. 

I don't know how fast it breaks down, so you could potentially overdo it before it breaks down, you can always test your soil to know for sure.  Based on what CoPlantNut is saying, sounds like a couple of days, so chances of overdoing it are slim.

I would recommend a stable consistent pH over a high-low pH method of watering.

Jay, test strips are easy and cheap to come by, http://www.amazon.com/Packs-Paper-Litmus-Strips-Tester/dp/B008IBOG7G/ref=zg_bs_3013605011_3/179-7340338-0136739

They are not utterly accurate, but will get you in the ballpark.  You could get anal and use the mole thing, but brute force testing would probably be quicker.

Add vinegar to water, stir and test.  Once you learn what ratio is good for you run with it.  Your tap water is unlikely to see much of a shift throughout the year (may depend on whether your water source changes throughout the year.)

I use it mixed in with Foliage Pro, I figure the plant stands a better chance of nutrient uptake with a short term dose of acidification.

If you want to work on the soil pH, use a sulfur drench.  I would guess that mulching with acidic materials would only work as they broke down.  You could potentially have low pH at ground level and high pH down deep.

[TropicalFruitHunters]

doglips...I already use vinegar.  I was more interested in the PH lowering abilities of what Keven mentioned.

[Doglips]

oops, sorry.

[CoPlantNut]

I use a product called "pH Down" made by General Hydroponics.  It is available in every hydroponic store I've been into in my area and buffers the acidity much better than vinegar.

While it has a pH lower than vinegar (so it doesn't take as much to acidify the water), I have gotten it on bare skin against all label recommendations and it has never bothered me.  I wouldn't want to get it in my eyes, but I wouldn't want vinegar in my eyes either...

There is no way to recommend how much you need to use as it will vary depending on exactly what is dissolved in your source water and what the beginning pH is.  The only way to accurately tell how much you need to add is to get a pH testing kit and try adding a couple drops at a time to a gallon of water pre-mixed with whatever fertilizer and additives you're using until you hit the desired pH range.  I end up adding 0.8ml of prepared acid per gallon of my tap water to get pH in the 5.5-6 range, but at the office (next city over, different water supply) it takes 1ml per gallon, and 20 miles from here I've got a friend that has to use 2ml/gallon to get to pH 6.5 but he's on well water and uses different fertilizer.  The only way to tell how much you need is to test.

I wouldn't recommend litmus paper for testing; sometimes the chemicals in fertilizer (organic or not!) can affect the litmus paper and not give an accurate reading.  The electronic pH testers are fraught with issues if you don't clean them properly before and after use or if they were made too cheaply (I can only recommend the "Blue Lab" brand, which is over $100), so I generally recommend getting the pH-testing drops which run about $6 for a supply that will provide hundreds of tests.

While "pH Down" isn't concentrated much more than vinegar and is fairly safe in that respect, always remember to add acid to water rather than adding water to acid.

   Kevin

[simon_grow]

Thanks for the replies everyone! I also have pH down and I use 1 teaspoon per gallon to bring down my tap water from 8.2 to 4.5. I use a blue lab pH meter and calibrate before every use. Do you think the pH down is better for the plants than vinegar? I know it has better buffering capacity so will maintain the pH better than vinegar but are the phosphoric and citric acid build up over time going to be harmful or will it just be additional fertilizer that the plant can use up?
Simon

[TropicalFruitHunters]

oops, sorry.

  Nope...honest mistake and we're all trying to learn something here.  Kevin peaked my interest by his comment on vinegar not keeping the soil PH down.  For many of my plants, I use rain water exclusively.  Just not happening during our winters here.  I've seen the PH Down product before be never purchased thinking vinegar was doing what I wanted.  Thanks for the more detail.  J

[fyliu]

Thanks for the information. I've been using Soil Acidifier and drinking water. If I had more plants I would look into better solutions like you guys. I have some pH adjustment solution from when I tried hydroponics.

[Pancrazio]

So, this thread can be summarized in: "It doesn't matter how much vinegar you will add, for the miracle fruit the water will taste sweet nonetheless". 

[stressbaby]

Jay,
Why can't you use rain/snow water in the winter?  That is what I do.

[CoPlantNut]

So, this thread can be summarized in: "It doesn't matter how much vinegar you will add, for the miracle fruit the water will taste sweet nonetheless". 

I'd say my summary would be "It doesn't matter how much vinegar you use, vinegar breaks down too quickly to effectively alter the soil pH for any plant".

It isn't just miracle fruit-- vinegar just doesn't work long-term.

Jay,
Why can't you use rain/snow water in the winter?  That is what I do.

I'm guessing Jay may have the same reason I do: when you go weeks without the weather getting above freezing, you'd have to have a very large water storage tank inside your precious greenhouse space to keep enough precipitation in liquid form.  If the snow isn't melting outside on its own due to cold temperatures, it is a lot of work to shovel enough snow into an indoor melting area to get enough water out of it.  And you have to pay to heat up any water from melted snow before you can use it to water tropicals.

When you're in the tropics or even an area that doesn't freeze for too long at once, it is much easier to have a giant water storage tank outside...

   Kevin

[Doglips]

I just think that Jay has a hard time pouring the snow out of the watering can!


(Just kidding)

[TropicalFruitHunters]

Robert...don't you have a system that brings water directly into your GH?  I have a large trash container setup with a pump to keep the water circulated.  If I keep to the plan of backing off the watering as much as the plants can handle, I shouldn't need that much water anyway.  I have a tendency to over water.