Author Topic: Hybrid Concerns...  (Read 3736 times)

Caesar

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Hybrid Concerns...
« on: July 19, 2015, 01:18:38 PM »
Jumping on the hybrid bandwagon here, I've been following most such threads for a long time now; it's a particular interest of mine. But here, I come with a concern instead of a proposed experiment: Just how easily do related trees hybridize on their own account?

When propagating rare species to "spread the goodwill" and reduce their rarity - or maybe as a business -, it is of tantamount importance to have the other person receive pure seeds. They're going to want exactly what was advertised, and hybrids may not have the culinary qualities they were looking for in the original fruit. What's more, it stymies an attempt to reduce the rarity of an exotic when you intend to plant a pure seed and end up planting a hybrid by mistake. Worst case scenario in the case of species that are hard to tell apart, you end up with genetic pollution, which can end up with wide-ranging consequences when there are individuals receiving seeds, that are less concerned with pedantic species details, and breed them forward to other people under a false identity (either to make a quick buck, or because they don't think it's a big deal).

I may eventually - or not - end up in the propagating business to some degree (I'm mostly aiming for the produce business), but that's beside the point. At the moment, my plot of land is very small, and I'll be planting it densely with many fruit trees, several of which are related to one-another. I was hoping to propagate them to give them to friends and family, and maybe plant an odd tree or two around town, if it's allowed. Reducing the rarity and all that (which would particularly come in handy if something happens to my trees; I'd have a local source for more). So... Should I be worried about species purity when propagating them? Is it unlikely for them to hybridize? Or are these best answered on a case-by-case basis?

At the moment, I'm growing the following species clusters:
- Six Jabos (Red, Crowned, White, Grimal; Blue; Yellow).
- Seven Eugenias (uniflora, involucrata, brasiliensis, calycina, candolleana, luthschnathiana, selloi).
- Two Guavas (Common, Cattley).
- Five Artocarpus (altilis, camansi, odoratissimus, sericicarpus, hypargyreus).
- Four Garcinias (Achachairu, Sweet Madroño, Luc's, Intermedia).
- Two Theobromas (Pataxte / Mocambo, Cupuaçú).

My biggest concern is with the rarest species that I'd like to spread around; namely, Grimal Jabo, E. calycina, Pedalai, Madroño, and Luc's Garcinia. Not necessarily with each other (obviously), just that I'd like to propagate each of these pure. Am I likely to have an issue with them?

Hybridizing can be great fun, and is an excellent way to develop new crops, but only under the guiding hand of a willing breeder. Unauthorized hybridizing seems like it might be a nuisance if your biggest priority is propagation. And though I have several of my own experiments in mind, I also want to be able to propagate the pure species when the occasion requires it.

echinopora

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Re: Hybrid Concerns...
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2015, 02:42:43 PM »
A research paper I read a while back would suggest that red hybrid, white, grimal, crowned would all cross readily, but they were actively crossing. Some flowers self pollenate very readily and I don't recall if jaboticaba have to be emasculated for good percentages of hybridization.

echinopora

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Re: Hybrid Concerns...
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2015, 03:02:34 PM »
https://repositorio.ufba.br/ri/bitstream/ri/12659/1/Dissertacao%20Regina.pdf

Not the original one I read but still about hybrids. Maybe a brazillian can summarize it, as I can only understand some of it.
But page 67 screams more markers needed.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2015, 03:20:41 PM by echinopora »

Tropicdude

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Re: Hybrid Concerns...
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2015, 07:34:02 PM »
To prevent crossing, and keep your seeds "pure".  you will have to isolate somehow.  you can isolate the flowers, using bags, or whole trees using screens and such,  similar techniques are used when you are trying to cross to two varieties to get a new hybrid, by caging two tree together.

self pollinating trees are much easier ,  just bag up the flowers, and or hand pollinate.

of course the true and tried way to propagate ,  using cuttings, grafts etc.  is one way to unsure you are propagating exactly what you want.
William
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Caesar

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Re: Hybrid Concerns...
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2015, 08:18:04 PM »
A research paper I read a while back would suggest that red hybrid, white, grimal, crowned would all cross readily, but they were actively crossing. Some flowers self pollenate very readily and I don't recall if jaboticaba have to be emasculated for good percentages of hybridization.

https://repositorio.ufba.br/ri/bitstream/ri/12659/1/Dissertacao%20Regina.pdf

Not the original one I read but still about hybrids. Maybe a brazillian can summarize it, as I can only understand some of it.
But page 67 screams more markers needed.

Nice find! I guess this means there's risk with the Jabos then. Great news for my mad scientist tendencies, not so great for when I propagate. At least I have this forum to verify purity. I think Adam has a handle on identifying Jabo hybrids. I'll have to learn a trick or two myself.

To prevent crossing, and keep your seeds "pure".  you will have to isolate somehow.  you can isolate the flowers, using bags, or whole trees using screens and such,  similar techniques are used when you are trying to cross to two varieties to get a new hybrid, by caging two tree together.

self pollinating trees are much easier ,  just bag up the flowers, and or hand pollinate.

of course the true and tried way to propagate ,  using cuttings, grafts etc.  is one way to unsure you are propagating exactly what you want.

Cuttings and grafts are great, but I'm not sure all my trees strike so easily that way. Besides, a little genetic diversity is always nice. And if bagging flowers works, I can just bag the ones I want to propagate at flowering time. So... I guess I have my answer. To preserve species purity in a mixed orchard when propagating, bag the flowers. Great!

Now all I gotta do is learn to hand pollinate the finicky fruiters. I'm not sure if a bagged Artocarpus will bear unless hand-pollinated. And climbing up the trunk of a tall Pedalai in the middle of a slope is out of the question. I don't think I'd be distressed by it crossing with Marang, but I don't want it to cross with the starchy species. I won't have a problem with the Camansi, as it's getting the ax pretty soon. Does anyone know if seedless breadfruit will cross with it or with Marang? Does it even bear fertile pollen?

fruitlovers

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Re: Hybrid Concerns...
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2015, 10:00:08 PM »
That's a common misconception, that fruit trees will easily hybridize. The exact opposite is true and it usually takes a painstaking concerted and repeated hand pollination effort to come up with most tropical fruit tree hybrids. The very few exceptions are usually wind pollinated fruit trees, like coconut and papaya. These will easily cross pollinate and need large isolation distances to insure that trees don't cross pollinate.
Really what you are talking about  is a much more real problem with vegetables. For example, tomatoes, pepper, eggplants, lettuce, you need to have isolation distances or have plants inside of caged areas to prevent insect cross pollination and maintain purity. 
Oscar

Caesar

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Re: Hybrid Concerns...
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2015, 10:30:18 AM »
I didn't really know what to expect. I'm glad I won't have to go out of my way to ensure species purity.

As to the other side of the coin (intentional hybridizing), how would I go about cross-pollinating Artocarpus species? I'm not sure how conventional methods would apply; their flower structure seems different on the large scale (though I'm sure it's the same when viewed up close).

fruitlovers

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Re: Hybrid Concerns...
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2015, 06:52:27 PM »
I didn't really know what to expect. I'm glad I won't have to go out of my way to ensure species purity.

As to the other side of the coin (intentional hybridizing), how would I go about cross-pollinating Artocarpus species? I'm not sure how conventional methods would apply; their flower structure seems different on the large scale (though I'm sure it's the same when viewed up close).

You have to stick to species that are very similar. For example try crossing jackfruit with chempadek, breadfruit with camansi (breadnut), kwai muk with lakoocha.
Oscar

stuartdaly88

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Re: Hybrid Concerns...
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2015, 08:03:26 AM »
I didn't really know what to expect. I'm glad I won't have to go out of my way to ensure species purity.

As to the other side of the coin (intentional hybridizing), how would I go about cross-pollinating Artocarpus species? I'm not sure how conventional methods would apply; their flower structure seems different on the large scale (though I'm sure it's the same when viewed up close).

You have to stick to species that are very similar. For example try crossing jackfruit with chempadek, breadfruit with camansi (breadnut), kwai muk with lakoocha.

Interesting, what is the best way to asses the similarity?(besides genetic testing ofcourse)
Is it the flowers similarity?
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau

fruitlovers

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Re: Hybrid Concerns...
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2015, 05:06:33 PM »
I didn't really know what to expect. I'm glad I won't have to go out of my way to ensure species purity.

As to the other side of the coin (intentional hybridizing), how would I go about cross-pollinating Artocarpus species? I'm not sure how conventional methods would apply; their flower structure seems different on the large scale (though I'm sure it's the same when viewed up close).

You have to stick to species that are very similar. For example try crossing jackfruit with chempadek, breadfruit with camansi (breadnut), kwai muk with lakoocha.

Interesting, what is the best way to asses the similarity?(besides genetic testing ofcourse)
Is it the flowers similarity?
Yes flowers. Look also at key in artocarpus monogoraph, similar species are grouped together.
Oscar

Finca La Isla

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Re: Hybrid Concerns...
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2015, 07:19:19 PM »
It is hard to know which sp. can be hybridized.  I used to hybridize anthuriums and you couldn't always hybridize within the genus but sometimes inter generic hybrids will work.  This tells me the plants are not properly classified, but the classification is supposed to be made based on flower taxonomy.
Palms often will hybridize naturally.  Oscar mentioned coconuts but the same applies for pejibaye and many ornamental palms.
Peter

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Re: Hybrid Concerns...
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2021, 07:47:18 PM »
It is hard to know which sp. can be hybridized.  I used to hybridize anthuriums and you couldn't always hybridize within the genus but sometimes inter generic hybrids will work.  This tells me the plants are not properly classified, but the classification is supposed to be made based on flower taxonomy.
Palms often will hybridize naturally.  Oscar mentioned coconuts but the same applies for pejibaye and many ornamental palms.
Peter

Have you or anyone else tried to self pollinate champedak or jackfruit to get a clone seedling rather then grafting?
Covering the main flower steam with a bag and then shake it to move the air around for "wind pollination" reproduction when both male and female is developed.
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