Author Topic: Organic Fertilizers  (Read 5981 times)

Frog Valley Farm

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Organic Fertilizers
« on: November 15, 2020, 09:15:51 AM »
No news here.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 06:57:54 AM by Frog Valley Farm »

Finca La Isla

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2020, 09:13:37 PM »
What do you think about how best to use the tea that is produced by a worm castings project?
Peter

Frog Valley Farm

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2020, 05:43:08 AM »
No news here
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 06:58:11 AM by Frog Valley Farm »

Frog Valley Farm

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2020, 06:29:03 AM »
No news here.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 06:58:29 AM by Frog Valley Farm »

Mark in Texas

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2020, 09:03:07 AM »
Organics are worthless (and pricey) in the real world of plant nutrition and science if the nutrient mix (macros and micros) doesn't match what's indigenous to the plant material.  In the end, it's all about "chemicals", salts found in organics in a form that is useful to the material.   Practicing what I consider a voodoo hodgepodge of plant nutrition is risky, very non productive and ill advised.

If you're worried about "polluting" runoffs as we play the "what if" mind games then use a prill like Polyon or Osmocote's Indoor/Outdoor Plus, 15-9-12 with micros.  For pure salts Dyna-Gro is hard to beat but also means more maintenance.  If pollution is actually confirmed by bonafide non partisan testing firms then with a clear conscious change your ways and be a good steward of the environment.  Here in Texas it's not a problem no matter what the organic knee jerkers want you to believe.  ;D

Keep in mind if you apply a heavy layer of mulch like wood chips you have to feed the soil microbes with additional N.  Same with uncomposted humus products added to soil mixes which includes stuff like peat and coir.  I usually compensate with the addition of blood meal when I make up bulk mixes.



Daintree

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2020, 10:32:05 AM »
In Idaho, we have a big problem with nutrient runoff into the river, both synthetic phosphorus and organic nitrogen.   It doesn't seem to matter if it is organic or not, it is all chemicals. 

By practicing correct nutrient management techniques, conservation drainage practices (which I suspect may be difficult, up to impossible in Florida due to high water tables and porous soils), ground covers and conservation tillage, the problem can be solved, whether we use organic or synthetically sourced products.

Personally, my problem with organics is that it is hard to tell what is actually being put into the soil and what the plants are able to use. 

I ran a fertilizer test in my greenhouse, and sent many potting soil samples off for lab analysis and was heartened to find that my synthetic fertilizers were not adversely affecting the microorganisms I was trying to encourage.  On the flip side, my organically fertilized plants were not getting enough of key nutrients. Of course, this was all in pots...

No matter what the source of the nutrients, as long as the results are good, the environment is protected,  sound science is used and results are verifiable, it seems like a "win" all around to me!

Have a Blessed Thanksgiving!
Carolyn

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2020, 10:59:13 AM »
Wonderfully put Carolyn.
Very helpful too to hear about your test results.
I’m not terribly experienced but what I’ve come to believe is basically less is more - tinker with the environment as little as possible (speaking of in-ground).

Some people are tinkerers. I think I could be. The idea of all these organic potions is very appealing to tinkerers (including me). Knock yourselves out but be cautious in insisting this is the only way to grow plants.

Finca La Isla

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2020, 11:38:07 AM »
To say that organic fertilizers are 'worthless' is simply not so.  We have pretty good production from tree crops by mostly imitating what we see in the forest and always putting something back for the fruit that we carry away and sell very successfully.
I was particularly impressed on a visit to Cuba where an independent coop, with zero government help, was able to produce most of the mint for mojitos in Havana on a red, sticky soil that nobody would be encouraged to work.  After experimenting with several natural solution, mostly because no conventional fertilizer was available they settled on worm compost.  So we’re talking about an organic solution that is not expensive either.  We produce our own worm compost with kitchen and fruit scraps and it’s the most powerful 'fertilizer' we have.  We make biochar, doesn’t cost us anything.  We buy some minerals like rock phosphate, calcium, and get manure from a neighbor farm.
Believe me, it works and we’re not spending a lot at all.
Peter

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2020, 02:12:39 PM »
The speed of nitrogen releaseed for plant available uptake depends on the Carbon to nitrogen ratio of the fertilizer.

Wood chips have a very high C/N ratio. 100/1, very slow nitrogen release.

Grass hays like rye, oat, etc. are close to the ideal range for c/n 24/1, this has been shown to be the optimal range for microbial nitrogen release .

Cow manure c/n ratio 8/1 faster nitrogen release.

Of all soil types sand has the ability to cycle c/n nutrients the fastest due to the porosity found in sand.  Compacted sand caused by mowing hinders this nutrient cycle system.

Therefore it is wise to use less wood chips, rely more on grass inputs both living grass and cut dried hay, also go light on the manures.  Check your c/n levels on your inputs.

I use plenty of wood inputs but do not chip anymore, I like the logs to mostly rest above the soil line so as not to compact the sand and also so the grass mix cover crop will live and secrete exudates into the soil.

Polluting is a personal choice, pollution has detrimental affects on everyone.  Please people make the right choice.  It works better growing biologically for growing tropical fruit trees in Florida.



Thanks for all the great advice! Any idea what thickness wood chips would have to be to start locking out nitrogen?
Nate

Mark in Texas

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2020, 02:49:26 PM »
...I ran a fertilizer test in my greenhouse, and sent many potting soil samples off for lab analysis and was heartened to find that my synthetic fertilizers were not adversely affecting the microorganisms I was trying to encourage.

Carlos did the same thing.  Busts the myth from the organic wackos claiming that the use of synthetics is detrimental to microbes.  That's one ruse they use for selling their narrative.   It's actually the reverse, these "chemicals" supports microbial reproduction and health as certified by increased microbial respiration flags.

Good stuff Carolyn, ya'll have a good one too.

Mark and Nancy




Mark in Texas

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2020, 02:56:51 PM »
To say that organic fertilizers are 'worthless' is simply not so.

I never said that, please don't parse my statement and take it out of context.   If anyone knows and uses organics a lot it's me.  You planted 3 years of legumes and green manure crops on acreage?  I have, 15 acres to be exact.
Quote
Organics are worthless (and pricey) in the real world of plant nutrition and science if the nutrient mix (macros and micros) doesn't match what's indigenous to the plant material

Whatever floats your boat.

Triloba Tracker

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2020, 03:33:57 PM »
Sorta to my earlier point, there is something fun about using free or cheap stuff (organic waste) and sorta doing a science Project in order to make fertilizer. The appeal of alchemy I guess.
I went down that road early on, and it was fun while it lasted.

Beyond that....?

The extreme stuff about spraying all kinds of concoctions and constantly adding inputs to the system is to me, well, extreme and wasteful.

Test your soil/tissue, find out what’s lacking if anything and only input what you need. You CAN have too much of anything.

Frog Valley Farm

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Re: Organic fertilize
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2020, 05:31:44 AM »
No news here
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 07:00:38 AM by Frog Valley Farm »

Frog Valley Farm

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Re: Organic fertilize
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2020, 07:40:57 AM »
No news here.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 06:59:46 AM by Frog Valley Farm »

Mark in Texas

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2020, 07:43:17 AM »
Quote
You American polluters who don’t believe in the science regarding regenerative farming and like to name call when you get confused, who only care about oneself.

Ahhh....... the elitist, holier-than-thou attitude of organic jihadists out to save the world and mah soul, gotta love it.  ::) 

"This" does pertain to me - I know soil chemistry, plant nutrition and what makes a plant tick.  I also know organics, the pros and cons.

My avocado tree (which took 13F and lived to tell about it) can beat up your avocado tree LOL.   ;D  ;D  ;D



Sorry to have hijacked your thread but sometimes that's required to offer another opinion based on reality and common sense.

Carry on.........  ;)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 08:18:39 AM by Mark in Texas »

Frog Valley Farm

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2020, 07:47:18 AM »
No news here.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 06:59:05 AM by Frog Valley Farm »

Mark in Texas

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2020, 08:18:08 AM »

I do not grow Avocados.  I do it because I want to produce the best tasting and healthiest fruit for friends and family possible and this is how I learned to accomplish this goal.

Your fruit is no more tastier or "healthier" than any conventionally well grown tree.  That elitist BS has been disapproved with blind tests between organic and conventional. 

OH NO!  ;D  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_IoNQHMFLk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENF-2RWIGQw

Like I said, the ONLY thing the plant material cares about is receiving nutrients in a chemical, salt form in the ratio it has adjusted to since the beginning of time.

Example, citrus produces best with a NPK of 5-1-3 and a good micros package including manganese which is always left out with rip offs like the "organic and natural" Espoma Citrus Tone.   Only by understanding what makes a plant tick will you accomplish your goal.  Do a tissue analysis, just for the science of it.

Frog Valley Farm

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2020, 08:25:04 AM »
No news here.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 06:57:26 AM by Frog Valley Farm »

flauro01

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2020, 09:33:13 AM »
I do not see the point of others hijacking this thread that was initially meant to educate.  What started out as an informative and potentially useful thread for those interested is turning into a circus side show.  The initial point of the thread is to educate and inform.  From the moment Mark from Texas posted, the entire thread point of the thread was lost.  An intelligent discussion is one thing.  A blatant attack on an individual or ideal is another.  I feel that the moderators or others in this forum should intervene.  I do not find the passive aggressive comments educational or informative.  There should be no place or tolerance of that behavior here.  Frog is posting information on farming techniques that can be beneficial for those interested in growing with a natural, regenerative system.  It is not the Bible, but they are techniques that he has proven work in a natural Florida ecosystem.  I have witnessed this personally and incorporate some of his techniques into my own farming practices with great success.  All who live in Florida and are interested in growing in a natural regenerative way can potentially benefit from this information.  It should be shared and discussed in a productive manner. 

johnb51

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2020, 09:53:17 AM »
"Elitist"  "Jihadist"  Why has it become so hard to have a conversation with someone with another point of view and another set of beliefs, experiences, and practices?  it just seems to me a little humility and respect would go a long way.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 09:56:24 AM by johnb51 »
John

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2020, 10:02:53 AM »
When does providing a counterpoint “hijacking”?  I see individuals who are passionate about their points of views.  Nothing wrong with that. 

Mark in Texas

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2020, 10:10:50 AM »
When does providing a counterpoint “hijacking”?  I see individuals who are passionate about their points of views.  Nothing wrong with that.

It's another example of self annointed Thought Police wanting to shut down the conversation and ban a certain group, witness what's going on at Harvard.  This intolerant manure has gotta stop.   ;D  My reply #4 said it all. ^ ^ ^

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=41725.25
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 10:16:48 AM by Mark in Texas »

Frog Valley Farm

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2020, 10:16:40 AM »
No news here
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 06:56:48 AM by Frog Valley Farm »

Mark in Texas

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2020, 10:17:31 AM »

Frog Valley Farm

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Re: Organic fertilizers
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2020, 10:34:09 AM »
No news here
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 06:55:58 AM by Frog Valley Farm »