Author Topic: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project  (Read 1745 times)

FlMikey

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Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« on: July 20, 2021, 08:42:10 PM »
Hello!

One of my buddies has a Carrie tree, and he's interested in top working into other varieties.  One of the techniques we were considering is the top work method in this video by Dr. Campbell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dyjkl9Fzzs4&t=1s).  Essentially in that video he decapitates an entire tree, then grafts 4 scions into the trunk.  My friend has about 5 scaffolding branches and so the idea is to graft 4 scions per main scaffolding branch (see red arrows in pics).

Will grafting across the 5 scaffolding branches lead to high take rates and should we graft them all at once simultaneously, or can we attempt to do 1 scaffold branch, check if it takes, the continue to the rest of the tree?

Or, for the highest probability of takes, is it recommended to graft like in the video, and decapitate the entire tree and graft 4 scions on to the trunk? 

Or for a tree this size, is there any other grafting techniques we should be investigating?


Tree Pics






Potential Graft Points onto Scaffold branches


As always, any input is most appreciated!

Thanks for your time!

bsbullie

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2021, 08:50:17 PM »
Here is my current topwork Yi Xaun project.


- Rob

skhan

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2021, 09:24:27 PM »
Decapitating the scaffold branches and waiting to graft onto the new tender shoots has a higher success rate.
I do both though.


Orkine

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2021, 09:45:35 PM »
I do not like the method Dr. Campbell used but it does work and has its place.

If you are going that route I suggest you do it in two phases.  I suggest you take two of the 4 cuts and graft on to them this season or this first phase.  When you get good takes and they have pushed and hardened, take the other two cuts and graft on them.  Your tree goes through a little less stress.  You don't remove too much of the canopy at any one time (I prefer thirds to halves but half is better than the entire canopy)
This way you graft at two different times, your cuts are always shaded minimizing sunburn damage.

Now the approach I prefer can also be done in phases and is similar to what I describes except you wait after the cut to have water shoots grow and you select and graft onto the shoot of choice.  The drawback is you cut two of your 4 scaffold branches on one day, then perhaps a month or so later you do your first batch of grafts.  Then you wait for those to take and then cut the other two branches, wait for it to sprout, then graft.  Unfortunately, it stretches everything out instead of doing it all at once as the good Dr. did.

I lost a decapitated stump (a Lacentilla that I tried to top work).  Since then I, take the tree down in thirds and have not had the same problem.

See this video from Chris of Truly Tropical.  I prefer her piecewise approach and she does not do a bark graft but a series of more traditional grafts.  What she did is closer to what I do and is a great approach if you do your own rafting and have time.
Part 1: https://youtu.be/LyDpXouUAiU
Part 2: https://youtu.be/ulSNctiCfmU
Part 3: https://youtu.be/6vTwXbalkNg
Part 4: https://youtu.be/QGjhhyXIH5w


This other guy doe snot exactly do a top work where he changes the variety but other tan the fact that he took off the entire canopy, what he did is the first step of what I prefer to do. 
https://youtu.be/VOtb6WYlQGA


Good luck.

Found an old post where I shared the same videos.  http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=35365.msg370922#msg370922





« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 10:00:25 PM by Orkine »

Seanny

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2021, 01:58:30 AM »
A safe method is to have a nurse branch.
A nurse branch feeds the roots while the tree recover.

Cut the top 4 branches then graft or wait for new shoots then graft.
Thin the bottom branch by half to 2/3. This is the nurse branch.
Remove it after grafts are done.

BS seems to know what he’s doing.

JakeFruit

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2021, 01:42:35 PM »
Decapitating would leave you with a very small trunk to work with. You'd be grafting onto growth that (by necessity) is on nearly the same level/height and very low to the ground. Being the same height/level is not ideal, that'll be a lot of weight down the road and the trunk might split in a storm or something.

I agree with doing it in stages, even if you do it 75%/25% or 50%/50%. There are several reasons why that's beneficial, not least of which is you'll be able to shape/determine the growth easier. I would consider also leaving some length to each branch to start grafting at a higher height, rather than lopping each branch off close to the trunk. That tree is really low to the ground and your grafts will likely want to flower/fruit before too long. You'll be faced with the challenge of keeping your fruit off the ground. In addition, your grafts will have more space to grow without competing with each other for sunlight. The downside is you'll probably get more growth shoots from the Carrie along the branches over time that you'll have to remove, but that's not a big issue, at least in my book.

sapote

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2021, 05:08:42 PM »
Decapitating would leave you with a very small trunk to work with. You'd be grafting onto growth that (by necessity) is on nearly the same level/height and very low to the ground. Being the same height/level is not ideal, that'll be a lot of weight down the road and the trunk might split in a storm or something.

I think he would only keep one graft and cut off the weaker ones for this graft. Too bad he didn't show the result if the grafts took or died.
To be clear I was referring to Dr. Campbell's video.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 01:28:53 AM by sapote »

sapote

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2021, 05:15:09 PM »
A safe method is to have a nurse branch.
A nurse branch feeds the roots while the tree recover.

I believe he choose to have the result of a  single straight main trunk and so he had to decapitate the main trunk instead of the larger branches. His tree is in a relatively shade and not lack of moisture, and in such condition it's rare for a decapped mango to die. As soon as the scions pushed out, the new leaves will supply the needed energy.

To be clear I was referring to Dr. Campbell's video.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 01:29:10 AM by sapote »

JakeFruit

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2021, 07:50:03 PM »
Decapitating would leave you with a very small trunk to work with. You'd be grafting onto growth that (by necessity) is on nearly the same level/height and very low to the ground. Being the same height/level is not ideal, that'll be a lot of weight down the road and the trunk might split in a storm or something.

I think he would only keep one graft and cut off the weaker ones for this graft. Too bad he didn't show the result if the grafts took or died.
"My friend has about 5 scaffolding branches and so the idea is to graft 4 scions per main scaffolding branch (see red arrows in pics)."

As I read his post, he seems to be interested in doing as I recommended, grafting onto each branch (rather than decapitating below the first branch). He posted the question yesterday, I doubt he's grafted anything yet.


FlMikey

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2021, 08:59:49 PM »
Thanks everyone for the EXTREMELY helpful input and gave me additional considerations!   :D 8)

Yes we haven't started to cut the tree as we were determining the best approach. 

Based on the feedback, it sounds like our best chance for success will be to cut 1/3 to 1/2 of the main scaffolding branches (phased approach), wait for the shoots to appear, graft on to the strongest shoots, wait for all the grafts to harden, then at that point, remove either another 1/3 or 1/2 of branches, and continue the process. 

We will cut higher up on the scaffolding branches as Jake suggests to avoid having to prop fruit up from the ground and I'm thinking if the grafts don't take, then we can simply cut more of the scaffolding branch off to try again.

Rob - is your plan at this point with your tree to graft on to the new shoots once they show?


bsbullie

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2021, 09:11:03 PM »
Thanks everyone for the EXTREMELY helpful input and gave me additional considerations!   :D 8)

Yes we haven't started to cut the tree as we were determining the best approach. 

Based on the feedback, it sounds like our best chance for success will be to cut 1/3 to 1/2 of the main scaffolding branches (phased approach), wait for the shoots to appear, graft on to the strongest shoots, wait for all the grafts to harden, then at that point, remove either another 1/3 or 1/2 of branches, and continue the process. 

We will cut higher up on the scaffolding branches as Jake suggests to avoid having to prop fruit up from the ground and I'm thinking if the grafts don't take, then we can simply cut more of the scaffolding branch off to try again.

Rob - is your plan at this point with your tree to graft on to the new shoots once they show?

No, there already vaneer grafts done on those branches ala Walter Zill style.
- Rob

gnappi

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2021, 05:44:51 AM »
Years ago I grafted Carrie onto an East Indian and it took over eventually killing the EI and others I tried to graft onto it never survived. I don't know if Carrie is known for being aggressive sucking the life out of every other cultivar but I'd not let a nurse branch live.

Regards,

   Gary

FlMikey

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2021, 05:59:47 AM »
Thanks everyone for the EXTREMELY helpful input and gave me additional considerations!   :D 8)

Yes we haven't started to cut the tree as we were determining the best approach. 

Based on the feedback, it sounds like our best chance for success will be to cut 1/3 to 1/2 of the main scaffolding branches (phased approach), wait for the shoots to appear, graft on to the strongest shoots, wait for all the grafts to harden, then at that point, remove either another 1/3 or 1/2 of branches, and continue the process. 

We will cut higher up on the scaffolding branches as Jake suggests to avoid having to prop fruit up from the ground and I'm thinking if the grafts don't take, then we can simply cut more of the scaffolding branch off to try again.

Rob - is your plan at this point with your tree to graft on to the new shoots once they show?

No, there already vaneer grafts done on those branches ala Walter Zill style.

Daft question - but where are the grats lol?  I zoomed in and I'm not seeing them?  Is it on every one of the chopped off limbs?

Orkine

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2021, 08:22:54 AM »
Anywhere you se the almost clear tape there is a graft under it.
The key is to know Walter Zill style veneer the Rob is talking about.
The tape covers the entire graft, top to bottom.

Sapote (a forum member) came up with something somewhat similar that he called the grave and coffin that he believes is fool proof (I think blind grafter friendly)

Watch the video below then look at Robs picture.  You will be able to tell where a graft has gone.  They are on, not at the end, of the branches.  The wrapping tape is the telltale sign.

https://youtu.be/fp_QOOLRTcI
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 08:25:29 AM by Orkine »

Orkine

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2021, 09:46:45 AM »
I marked off 5 locations where I see tape (suggestive of a wrapped graft).  There may be more but these are the ones I see.



sapote

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2021, 03:35:37 PM »
I marked off 5 locations where I see tape (suggestive of a wrapped graft).  There may be more but these are the ones I see.



yes, they look like grafts but somehow the covering tape is a little too short for the whole scion length if these were done with Zill's veneer technique. The covering tape looks like even shorter than diameter of the branch, or might be the branches are larger than 3 inches. I always use scions about 3" or a little longer, but not shorter.

sapote

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2021, 03:41:59 PM »

Potential Graft Points onto Scaffold branches


These branches are quite big and I have not seen a Walter Zill's veneer graft on such mature big branch. You will have a hard time using tape to create enough pressing force to hold the scion tightly couple to the cambium with such large branches -- maybe a large rubber band or strip of bicycle tire  inner tube.

FlMikey

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2021, 08:14:09 PM »
Thank you Orkine for pointing that out - good eyes!  I'm familiar with the Walter Zill type graft, and Sapote's modification.  I got 2/3 success using Sapote's method this year, so was quite pleased with that result especially considering first attempt.

For this tree, should we do a side cleft graft on the new shoots like Chris or follow the Walter Zill / Sapote style of graft assuming we can find a large enough band to compress the budwood onto the mother tree cambium?

Orkine

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2021, 08:22:00 PM »
You are welcome.  I like grafting onto the emerging shoots and I like the idea of getting several potential graft sites to chose from.  If I get good take, I can chose which to keep and which to take off.  If I get low percentage take, then nature has decided which to keep.

Good luck.  Share a picture or two of what you end up doing.

JakeFruit

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2021, 11:33:24 AM »
Clefts are drop-dead simple, if you have scions matching the diameter of the new branches, that'd be my plan (you can off-center the graft if the branch diameter is greater than the scion, as long as the cambium is touching). Match the cambium rings as best you can and you should have a high success rate. I'd say my success is around 60% with mailed scions (~5 days old), 80% with fresh/day-of scions on mature trees like you'll be grafting to.

Veneers are useful when I'm grafting to larger diameter branches, but they are a little trickier, in my experience. With the diameter of those branches, I would not go that route. You'll notice little green pointy shoots emerging a few weeks after you cut each branch off, it'll take at least a month to get new branches that are graftable. I'd be cutting your first branch(es) now to catch a few months of the remaining growth season. You'll still have plenty of time to plan your attack after you cut.

Having a good idea of what you want the final project to look like when you start is important, that way you can choose which new branches you'll allow to develop and remove the rest as they emerge (you want all the energy going to the desired new growth). That said, don't be too aggressive; if you want 4 new branches, I'd let 6-8 develop in places you select and graft to all of them. You *could* get all takes, but the odds are a few will fail.

I didn't see you mention how comfortable you are with grafting. If you are new to it, you need to get your grafting kit together now. There are lots of tool options, you can find recommendations on here. You'll also want to watch as many videos as you can on whichever grafting technique you choose. I would practice on new growth coming off the tree, get the feel of cutting with whatever blade you choose. Straight cuts are crucial to success. My first season attempting grafts to mature trees had a horrible success rate, 2 for 12 or so.

sapote

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2021, 03:41:08 PM »
For this tree, should we do a side cleft graft on the new shoots like Chris or follow the Walter Zill / Sapote style of graft assuming we can find a large enough band to compress the budwood onto the mother tree cambium?

Cleft or veneer is depending on how large the new shoots are. Pencil size is good for cleft, and 3/4" to 2" shoot is good for Zill or Sapote modified gaft. These are big branches and so I think the new shoots will be vigorous and larger than pencil size (just like the new shoots in Walter Zill youtube video).

shaneatwell

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2021, 11:08:50 PM »
I just grafted a bunch with zills topping method. If it doesn't work hopefully I'll get some shoots to work with.



Shane

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2021, 12:10:13 PM »
Wow! That looks drastic! I just did something similar although my trunk was only 2" caliper. Of the three scions I put on one is flushing, one is dying and the other is just hanging tight! You did seal the cut with something right?

Good luck

shaneatwell

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Re: Carrie Mango Tree Top Work Project
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2021, 01:54:13 PM »
Sealed graft inserts and cambium with a bonsai sealer then taped everything. Discovered a bunch of volunteers to experiment on.
Shane