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Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: Caesar on June 14, 2017, 09:33:00 PM

Title: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Caesar on June 14, 2017, 09:33:00 PM
Hello everyone. I'm currently making efforts to acquire land, so I can finally start my farm. The question I'm asking here is, how to go about it? (starting it, not acquiring it). First, some background information:

I've been out of college for under a year now. I've considered other options (and I haven't fully rejected some of them), but other than biology, agriculture is my passion, so this farm is intended to be my main (and likely only) source of income. Therefore, it will be a commercial farm (not a hobby farm), requiring commercial output of product. That said, I don't need huge quantities of output, just enough to gain my livelihood (like a small farm, I guess you could say). As a matter of personal preference, I will not be using industrial techniques, and though I hope to acquire a large plot of land, I intend to operate it on small farm principles (perhaps even as a cooperative, eventually). In fact, I intend to manage it as a permaculture farm (you could say my ulterior motive is for the idea to catch on with other local farmers, proving you can feed the world without industrial techniques; big is not synonymous with industrial).

There's lots of information on permaculture out there, but most of it seems directed at subsistence farmers and homesteaders (both of whom mostly grow it to eat it themselves; I hope to fill most of my diet from my farm, but I also mainly want it as a reasonably strong source of income, by small-farm standards). There's also many permaculture farms that derive most of their income from on-farm teaching (something I don't wanna do; I don't mind teaching, but I wanna be proof-of-concept that the ideas work commercially, by deriving my income from actual product, as most farmers do). How does one commercialize permaculture? And do so in a way that doesn't appear "green" (with hidden eco-unfriendly shortcomings), but actually is "green" (with a neutral-to-positive environmental impact)? There's very little information on commercial applications for permaculture (except for isolated techniques), so I had to piece together the information myself.

Ultimately (Aquaponics & Microponics not withstanding), I found 4 promising candidates for a commercial farm (and one candidate that has left me as confused as ever):
+ Biointensive
+ No Dig
+ SALT (Sloping Agricultural Land Technology)
+ Inga Alley Cropping
? ? ? Food Forest

Side-note: My main interest is in tree crops, but I intend to get established with (and continue pursuing) annual crops as well. I also consider valuable the techniques of Companion Planting, Composting and Terra Preta Nova (http://honeybees-by-the-sea.com/terrapreta.htm (http://honeybees-by-the-sea.com/terrapreta.htm)) (http://honeybees-by-the-sea.com/terrapreta/terrapretanova.pdf (http://honeybees-by-the-sea.com/terrapreta/terrapretanova.pdf)).

Biointensive farming consists of double digging the raised annual crop beds and applying compost (and whatever organic fertilizer the local soil requires for its deficiencies). Allegedly, the resulting soil texture allows greater water retention and nutrient uptake by the crops, which can be spaced closer together without competing, covering the soil (retaining further moisture and preventing weed germination). Companion planting is used for best effect, and a minimum bed width of 3 feet (ideally 4 to 5; length is 10 to 20) ensures a better microclimate for the crops. I've seen several sources claim excellent results with this technique (both in yields and in fertilizer & water use reduction). I've also read a few that had terrible results, claiming explosive weed germination, poor water retention and soil texture degradation (crust-like water-impervious top layer, etc.). Makes me wonder if the  bad results come from improper preparation/implementation, inadequate land (perhaps it doesn't work everywhere?), or flaws inherent to the technique itself (but then why do some have great success?). My main concerns are the double digging's disturbance of soil microbiota and properties (it almost sounds like a poor-man's tilling, but deeper), as well as the seeming back-breaking labor it seems to entail (though proponents insist it is easy, with the right technique). Plus, if you're following the system to the letter, the double-digging must be repeated periodically (it's not "one and done", though it's said to get easier in subsequent digs).

Some Biointensive Links:
* http://www.growbiointensive.org/grow_main.html (http://www.growbiointensive.org/grow_main.html)
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPeAvYrfKkU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPeAvYrfKkU) (session one) =>  https://www.youtube.com/user/JohnJeavonsGrowBio/videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/JohnJeavonsGrowBio/videos) (the remaining sessions)
* https://www.villagevolunteers.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Biointensive-Farming-Training-Manual.pdf (https://www.villagevolunteers.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Biointensive-Farming-Training-Manual.pdf)
* http://growbiointensive.org/ (http://growbiointensive.org/) (extra resources)

No dig (a variation on no-till?) is where you smother and kill the local weeds and build the soil up from that layer, over time, with generous applications of compost and mulch. I've read of several farms failing with no-till, but all evidence indicates improper management (often commented on in detail by other permaculturists). With proper management, and the right combination of techniques, results tend to be as impressive as those claimed by the Biointensive farmers (in yields and fertilizer & water-use reduction). Unlike conventional biointensive techniques, it is said that the soil structure remains healthy (and improves over time, with worm-based "tilling" and increasing layers of organic matter), and the beneficial soil biota remains intact. This one appeals to me for soil health and minimizing work (at least, digging-based work). I wonder about combining it with Biointensive, but I'm not sure it would work; even if I double-dig only once, it kinda defeats the purpose of no-till. And if I apply biointensive plant spacing to no-till, yields might drop (the close spacing is said to work because of the changes made to the soil).

Some No-dig links:
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HATC3rG6NbQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HATC3rG6NbQ)
* http://www.backyardecosystem.com/organic-gardening/stop-killing-your-soil-debunking-double-digging/ (http://www.backyardecosystem.com/organic-gardening/stop-killing-your-soil-debunking-double-digging/)
* http://www.rootsimple.com/2011/04/till-vs-no-till/ (http://www.rootsimple.com/2011/04/till-vs-no-till/)
* https://craftsmanship.net/drought-fighters/ (https://craftsmanship.net/drought-fighters/)

SALT was primarily designed as a solution to slope-farming and soil erosion, but I think it seems useful for flat lands too. It's basically Alley Cropping between leguminous trees. The trees provide (with periodic pruning) organic matter for the alleys, and they help prevent erosion. I particularly like the versatility of the system, as it was designed with annual crops, perennial crops and fruit trees in mind (though there may be size limits), and even has provisions for Fodder Crops (not sure if grazed in-situ, which I would prefer) and Timber as well.

SALT Link:
* https://c.ymcdn.com/sites/echocommunity.site-ym.com/resource/collection/27A14B94-EFE8-4D8A-BB83-36A61F414E3B/TN_72_Sloping_Agricultural_Land_Technology--SALT.pdf (https://c.ymcdn.com/sites/echocommunity.site-ym.com/resource/collection/27A14B94-EFE8-4D8A-BB83-36A61F414E3B/TN_72_Sloping_Agricultural_Land_Technology--SALT.pdf)

Inga Alley Cropping almost seems like a flat-land version of SALT, and like SALT the results have been overwhelmingly positive. That said, it has it's pros and cons. On the one hand, the developer of this system tested out many leguminous tree species before settling on Inga, considering the others as inferior for the purposes of the system (including some used in SALT, which raises some questions for me as to which is superior). On the other hand, it's not as versatile, being good for growing annuals and some perennials, but not tree crops. Also, shade is a big part of the functionality of this system; after the harvest the canopy is allowed to close again, before chopping it again the following year. This makes me wonder: how long is the growing season? Would I be unable to grow sun-lovers (most crops) after the first harvest? That is the detail that worries me (and is one that is not mentioned for SALT). On the plus side, yields (of corn, at least) were considered far superior with fewer plants than when conventionally-planted.

Links for Inga Alley Cropping:
* http://www.ingafoundation.org/the-inga-tree/ (http://www.ingafoundation.org/the-inga-tree/)
* http://funavid.com/home/what-is-inga-alley-cropping/ (http://funavid.com/home/what-is-inga-alley-cropping/)
* http://www.rainforestsaver.org/step-step-guide-inga-alley-cropping (http://www.rainforestsaver.org/step-step-guide-inga-alley-cropping)
* http://www.rainforestsaver.org/advice-for-farmers (http://www.rainforestsaver.org/advice-for-farmers)
* http://www.rainforestsaver.org/general-considerations (http://www.rainforestsaver.org/general-considerations)

The final technique (of interest to me as an alternative for the Tree Crops) is the Food Forest. On the one hand, I've found that many of the layered representations of it available on the internet are too good to be true. You can't have a dense planting of trees and an understory of sun-loving crops at the same time. However, modified in more open-woodland style (with an open canopy), a sunny understory is more feasible (I think this technique is done at Las Cañadas). And even if the "understory" is eliminated (save for the shade crops), You might still get a good planting of tree crops. The question is, how is it done? What's the pattern for the trees, and the spacing? How is it different from a mixed orchard planting or the Tree Crop version of SALT? This is one permaculture concept whose techniques seem poorly explored in the online literature. A similar concept (a fodder forest?) is referred to online as Silvopasture, for livestock.

Food Forest relevant links:
* http://www.perennialsolutions.org/fukuokas-food-forest (http://www.perennialsolutions.org/fukuokas-food-forest)
* http://www.perennialsolutions.org/perennial-farming-systems-organic-agriculture-edible-permaculture-eric-toensmeier-large-scale-farmland.html (http://www.perennialsolutions.org/perennial-farming-systems-organic-agriculture-edible-permaculture-eric-toensmeier-large-scale-farmland.html)
* http://www.perennialsolutions.org/maximizing-omega-level-diversity (http://www.perennialsolutions.org/maximizing-omega-level-diversity)
* http://www.perennialsolutions.org/all-nitrogen-fixers-are-not-created-equal (http://www.perennialsolutions.org/all-nitrogen-fixers-are-not-created-equal)
* http://www.perennialsolutions.org/coppiced-nitrogen-fixing-firewood-species-of-the-world (http://www.perennialsolutions.org/coppiced-nitrogen-fixing-firewood-species-of-the-world)
* http://www.perennialsolutions.org/livestock-integration-reducing-labor-and-fossil-fuel-inputs (http://www.perennialsolutions.org/livestock-integration-reducing-labor-and-fossil-fuel-inputs)
* http://www.perennialsolutions.org/intensive-silvopasture-a-win-win-for-carbon-and-yield (http://www.perennialsolutions.org/intensive-silvopasture-a-win-win-for-carbon-and-yield)
* http://www.bosquedeniebla.com.mx/boscom.htm (http://www.bosquedeniebla.com.mx/boscom.htm)
* http://www.perennialsolutions.org/legume-trees-with-pods-edible-to-livestock (http://www.perennialsolutions.org/legume-trees-with-pods-edible-to-livestock)
* http://www.bosquedeniebla.com.mx/hacagrfor.htm (http://www.bosquedeniebla.com.mx/hacagrfor.htm)

And here is my question, the advice I seek: What combination of techniques should I use? Naturally, any technique involving trees is going to take a long time to develop, so while the trees are growing, I'm going to have to grow the annuals and small perennials either Biointensively, or with the No-dig system. Which one do I use? I'm gravitating more to the No-dig, but I'm wondering about incorporating the aforementioned traits of Biointensive into it (one-time double-dig and/or extra-close planting). Or perhaps full Biointensive would be better? Or full No-dig?

And as for the Trees... The Inga system for the annuals, or the SALT system? And the Fruits: SALT, Orchard or Food Forest?

Should I even consider Dairy Goats into my plans? Or perhaps Chickens, or Guineafowl?

I might consider testing all of them, except I still don't know the size or traits of the land I'll acquire (here's hoping for something big). I can afford to experiment with the annuals, but the trees ought to be planned with forethought and a solid, decided plan, set in stone (with the years they require, I can't afford to mess around).

A very serious post for an important time in my life. Shower me with your thoughts, opinions and advice.  ;) ;D 8)
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Finca La Isla on June 14, 2017, 10:24:27 PM
Your questions are a very interesting topic to me but frankly, you can't expect to get much of this resolved on this forum.  The subject is too complex.  There are 2-3 week permaculture courses that delve into this.  I have given several multi-day workshops on agroforestry.  If you can't come up with the answers you need from your own research then you might start with workshops and permaculture design courses.
My observation,
Peter
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: nullzero on June 14, 2017, 11:01:00 PM
Yeah you should do dairy goats,  chickens, and rabbits would also work. However you want to focus on a few things at first and not get in over your head.

Look into biochar, cover crops, mycorrhizae, compost,  and other topics.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Tropicdude on June 15, 2017, 02:30:08 AM
It would take pages and pages of dialog to get into every facet.  but some key points and tips.  if you are to work this yourself,  you must keep the size of the project at a manageable size.

The whole idea behind permaculture, is to get maximum results with minimum labor, in the most sustainable manner possible,  working with nature instead of against it.

its best to plan this thinking of loops,   for your cash products.   lets says you want to raise pigs,   what plants do they eat?  for example palm seeds are loved by them in the DR,  what if you used palms that also have seeds that humans can consume maybe peach palm Acai? , or oil can be extracted? what do the palms need?  pig poop can be fed into a bio digester, the methane used to cook with, and the biodigester makes excellent fertilizer.  the idea is to make this "loop" as efficient as possible, with elements that support one another.

As for aguaponics,  I feel this can be energy intensive,  it is not that passive and maintenance free.  let say you have  a large tank, with Tilapia
and you are using this water to cycle back up to water/nourish plants.  you have to get it perfectly balanced, too many plants, and you will not have enough "food" for them from the tank water, fish will still need to be fed, what will this cost, can you grow sufficient plants enough to sustain them?  ammonia, and pH among other things need to be monitored and regulated.  here you will need power to pump water 24/7 and fish for market need a freezer.  unless you can find someone to buy them right out of the tank.

personally I like the food Forrest system, plant many plants together, with many trees that support others, let nature do the rest, main labor input is to get it established, speed up the process by coppicing the "service" trees.  eventually having a "forrest" that will sustain itself, and you just go in and harvest, many fruits, nuts, and even lumber and medicinal plants etc.

Animals are integral to a permaculture system, chickens Ducks etc would be my first choice, which reminds me of something Geoff Lawton said, if you have a problem with snails,  snails are not your problem,  it is not having ducks that is your problem.

A lot of emphasis is put on NFT trees, ( Nitrogen fixers ) but the error is believing that this nitrogen will be available to other plants directly in the ground,  does not work that way,  NFT can grow on their own without most fertilizers, but it is the green manure they produce ( biomass ) that will benefit your other plants.  so do not rule out non NFT trees,  Moringa, Neem, Inga, Tamarind, and so on.  multipurpose trees,
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Tropheus76 on June 15, 2017, 09:04:55 AM
I am no expert by a long shot and I grow as a hobby not as a source of income but I have read on this subject extensively and know quite a few things I would change on my limited 2 acre property that I would do if I had to start over.  You are in PR correct? You have sizable land available to buy? You can grow almost anything. I don't know how big you are planning. First off, before you worry about methodology, you need to figure out who is your market and what actually sells. Are you selling in a farmers market, are you selling in stores? I have been to PR but I was on a mission so didn't get near as much time to look at markets or trees. The reason this matters is you want to maximize what actually sells vs what you can grow. This then will determine your methodology on how to go about growing. If you know something is kind of rare but when it shows up it is a big seller then maybe devote a decent portion of your land to this. I would make the majority of the property your bread and butter tree(s). There's usually a reason something is rare and you don't want to base your entire crop on it. Therefore having a bread and butter tree will ensure you have a product that will sell and will reliably grow in quantity in your climate. If you have a big enough property, you will have enough space to try multiple different methodologies then based on the trees involved. If you have a shade loving crop tree, then awesome try the SALT method.  Then if you wish to live off the land, have an acre or so for growing ground crops specifically for you, I have heard a garden needs to be a half acre a person so there you go.

Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Doug on June 15, 2017, 10:02:20 AM
I admire your thinking. I always thought what you're dreaming of doing to be a nice idea but not very practical, back-breaking and not very sustainable. But then I got to know a family of seven (mom, dad, five youngsters) who for a dozen years now have tapped into the growing interest in organic produce and products here. They have a very small farm of just a couple of acres with fruit trees and pasture, and their income is derived totally from a rather small garden of less than a quarter acre where they intensively raise wonderful clean organic veggies, along with a cow for organic milk to make yogurt. (BTW, they just got electricity in the last couple of years, and the still don't have a car.) It's hard work, but they are a beautiful and happy family. I think the key question for you is, how strong is the organic market in your area? If there's a good market, anything's possible. I have been an organic gardener/farmer for 50 years. Organic principles are actually very simple. I think too many people make it too academic and study it to death. LOL. Common sense about how Nature works is the rule! Best wishes to you on your journey.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Droshi on June 15, 2017, 01:35:33 PM
I could highly suggest as some others have mentioned: first research your market, see what is in demand, and try to fill a void or niche.

If for example there's no or little local market for durian, and you find out exporting to be impractical....don't plant an extensive durian farm and hope demand will pickup later. Leave this type of thing until you have already had success with something else.

The exact specifics (the growing techniques you are interested in and asking about) I would say you should start small if you can and expand with what you learn. Plenty of ideas work for many people, but they can also fail for others for a variety of reasons.

My ideas are to look at what the health community and chefs are demanding. Specialty fruit varieties, micro-greens, etc are all possibilities, but you have to see what is wanted first.

Not to say others here will lead you astray, but keep in mind that hobby forums like this are focused on growing what we as individuals like, no matter what the market demands. We can also relatively pick the fruit and stuff it in our face, so marketability of a product isn't as important.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Caesar on June 15, 2017, 03:49:32 PM
Your questions are a very interesting topic to me but frankly, you can't expect to get much of this resolved on this forum.  The subject is too complex.  There are 2-3 week permaculture courses that delve into this.  I have given several multi-day workshops on agroforestry.  If you can't come up with the answers you need from your own research then you might start with workshops and permaculture design courses.
My observation,
Peter

I suspected as much, but I figured it was worth a shot. Most everyone here has more direct hands-on experience, so it can't hurt to get some advice. I'd love to go to a workshop myself, but I'm not sure there are any near me, let alone one that specifically answers the Double Dig vs No Dig and SALT vs Inga debates. That said, I'll now keep my eyes out. Perhaps I'll find a local workshop on Permaculture. At the very least, I hope to resolve my doubts regarding Food Forest organization.


Yeah you should do dairy goats,  chickens, and rabbits would also work. However you want to focus on a few things at first and not get in over your head.

Look into biochar, cover crops, mycorrhizae, compost,  and other topics.

Definitely. I had actually worried once or twice about being overwhelmed, but I have been very organized in tackling this project, like dealing with a very important homework project, only better ('cause I dig the subject matter, if you'll pardon the pun). I've stored away information on the aforementioned topics (and many more) for over 5 years; I'm just now fully connecting the dots, now that the reality of owning a farm is almost at hand (like a deadline, it's given me a big boost in organizing myself, planning for success). The cover crops are actually something I haven't fully figured out, but I'm looking into it.

I intend to start with annual crops. While I have that going, I will figure out the different tree systems, and start implementing them, continuing to establish myself on the annual crops as the trees grow. A few years down the road, after the annual and perennial systems are in place, I'll figure out how to add in the animals, or perhaps build up a system around them if there's space remaining. I'm pacing myself, dividing everything into steps and taking each step on it's own, one at a time. Slow and steady wins the race.


It would take pages and pages of dialog to get into every facet.  but some key points and tips.  if you are to work this yourself,  you must keep the size of the project at a manageable size.

The whole idea behind permaculture, is to get maximum results with minimum labor, in the most sustainable manner possible,  working with nature instead of against it.

its best to plan this thinking of loops,   for your cash products.   lets says you want to raise pigs,   what plants do they eat?  for example palm seeds are loved by them in the DR,  what if you used palms that also have seeds that humans can consume maybe peach palm Acai? , or oil can be extracted? what do the palms need?  pig poop can be fed into a bio digester, the methane used to cook with, and the biodigester makes excellent fertilizer.  the idea is to make this "loop" as efficient as possible, with elements that support one another.

As for aguaponics,  I feel this can be energy intensive,  it is not that passive and maintenance free.  let say you have  a large tank, with Tilapia
and you are using this water to cycle back up to water/nourish plants.  you have to get it perfectly balanced, too many plants, and you will not have enough "food" for them from the tank water, fish will still need to be fed, what will this cost, can you grow sufficient plants enough to sustain them?  ammonia, and pH among other things need to be monitored and regulated.  here you will need power to pump water 24/7 and fish for market need a freezer.  unless you can find someone to buy them right out of the tank.

personally I like the food Forrest system, plant many plants together, with many trees that support others, let nature do the rest, main labor input is to get it established, speed up the process by coppicing the "service" trees.  eventually having a "forrest" that will sustain itself, and you just go in and harvest, many fruits, nuts, and even lumber and medicinal plants etc.

Animals are integral to a permaculture system, chickens Ducks etc would be my first choice, which reminds me of something Geoff Lawton said, if you have a problem with snails,  snails are not your problem,  it is not having ducks that is your problem.

A lot of emphasis is put on NFT trees, ( Nitrogen fixers ) but the error is believing that this nitrogen will be available to other plants directly in the ground,  does not work that way,  NFT can grow on their own without most fertilizers, but it is the green manure they produce ( biomass ) that will benefit your other plants.  so do not rule out non NFT trees,  Moringa, Neem, Inga, Tamarind, and so on.  multipurpose trees,

Loops, each system feeding the other... This is exactly the kind of thing I hope to accomplish.

Aquaponics seems a little too intensive for me, honestly. The idea is appealing, but factoring in the inputs (plus my desire for a degree of self sufficiency), and regulating the nutrients, it all gives me a bit of a headache. If I were tackling only that, then sure, but since I'm also handling in-ground systems, I'm not sure I'm going into extensive aquaponics any time soon. Perhaps later, but if so, I have a preference for Crayfish over Tilapia (I guess I'd market the crops and eat the crayfish myself).

The Food Forest sounds like an excellent idea, and it's my strongest candidate for the tree crops thus far, but I'm still not sure how to tackle formatting it. The spacing, the pattern of trees, the placing of the service trees, all of that is info that's not so easy to come by (and that's without counting the nuances of species selection, which will definitely impact the other factors).

Snails are, in fact, a problem in my garden at the moment. I'll probably add in some ducks and/or geese soon after starting, but I wonder about vegetable compatibility. I've read they're not as destructive as chickens in that regard, but I wonder if tender greens would be safe from them.

The NFT's are key in this, that's why I considered SALT and Inga Alley Cropping (IAC), but the question of which method to go still remains. Is SALT superior, or is IAC? Fruit Trees can be grown in SALT, but does a Fruit SALT system compare favorably to a Food Forest? And how would the NFT's be spaced in a Food Forest compared to SALT? Would I get a more stable and productive system for annual crops with SALT or with IAC? Figuring out the best system for integrating the NFT's is one of my bigger and more pressing doubts at the moment. I feel like Silvopasture might be easier to figure out, but that won't factor in until further down the road, and I still need to figure out which NFT system to use with the other crops.


I am no expert by a long shot and I grow as a hobby not as a source of income but I have read on this subject extensively and know quite a few things I would change on my limited 2 acre property that I would do if I had to start over.  You are in PR correct? You have sizable land available to buy? You can grow almost anything. I don't know how big you are planning. First off, before you worry about methodology, you need to figure out who is your market and what actually sells. Are you selling in a farmers market, are you selling in stores? I have been to PR but I was on a mission so didn't get near as much time to look at markets or trees. The reason this matters is you want to maximize what actually sells vs what you can grow. This then will determine your methodology on how to go about growing. If you know something is kind of rare but when it shows up it is a big seller then maybe devote a decent portion of your land to this. I would make the majority of the property your bread and butter tree(s). There's usually a reason something is rare and you don't want to base your entire crop on it. Therefore having a bread and butter tree will ensure you have a product that will sell and will reliably grow in quantity in your climate. If you have a big enough property, you will have enough space to try multiple different methodologies then based on the trees involved. If you have a shade loving crop tree, then awesome try the SALT method.  Then if you wish to live off the land, have an acre or so for growing ground crops specifically for you, I have heard a garden needs to be a half acre a person so there you go.

I'm not entirely sure what I'm gonna get. I'm currently applying for a family farm program, and I'm hoping they'll have a sizable plot available. If not, I'll have to take what I can get and move later on (or apply for a different program, if I'm able). Ultimately, I'd like to have many acres, to allow for a diversity of product (a small-to-moderate amount of space for fresh vegetables, and a large amount for tree crops). I hope to sell both at stores, and at farmer's markets; I'd eventually like to do minor exportation, and definitely some on-farm processed products, but we'll see how it goes. I've already determined everything I'm going to grow and sell, down to the letter. I had a very expansive list as a starting point, and eventually whittled down the candidates to four tiers (each, on two separate lists: small & annuals, and trees): Tier 1 has the bread and butter, that I know will sell well because they have a strong market here and are always in demand. Tier 2 has crops with a strong enough local market, but not as strong as tier 1, so I'll be planting less of them. Tier 3 has crops with a weak local market: strong enough to confidently grow them in the knowledge they will be bought, but not so in demand to warrant anything over a small planting. Tier 3 with the trees means most exotics: trees that I'll grow singly (or in very small groups) for my own personal consumption, and to test the waters in the local market (there are exotic trees in the upper tiers, but they're mainly well-known species that I'm reasonably confident will sell well, from what I've seen). Tier 4 with the trees are extra species and poorly-known exotics, that will only get a spot in my land if I can afford to give them space (they're all optional). Tier 4 with the small crops are also exotic and poorly-known crops, that I'll be growing in small quantities for myself (and to test the waters at market) in my own personal plot.

SALT provides shade? I was under the impression that it (the annual crop version) was a sunnier system (at full tree growth) than IAC.

I do wish to live off the land, and have also taken the time to look into important staple crops to take care of the big 3: starch, fat and protein. The micronutrients go with the rest of the veggies & fruit.


I admire your thinking. I always thought what you're dreaming of doing to be a nice idea but not very practical, back-breaking and not very sustainable. But then I got to know a family of seven (mom, dad, five youngsters) who for a dozen years now have tapped into the growing interest in organic produce and products here. They have a very small farm of just a couple of acres with fruit trees and pasture, and their income is derived totally from a rather small garden of less than a quarter acre where they intensively raise wonderful clean organic veggies, along with a cow for organic milk to make yogurt. (BTW, they just got electricity in the last couple of years, and the still don't have a car.) It's hard work, but they are a beautiful and happy family. I think the key question for you is, how strong is the organic market in your area? If there's a good market, anything's possible. I have been an organic gardener/farmer for 50 years. Organic principles are actually very simple. I think too many people make it too academic and study it to death. LOL. Common sense about how Nature works is the rule! Best wishes to you on your journey.

Thank you. And that anecdote fills me with hope. I like it when families are able to take care of themselves with nothing but responsible agriculture and land stewardship. As for the local organic market, I think it's reasonably strong but I don't intend to market organically. I'm just gonna sell them like normal crops. That's another thing I'd like to achieve: industrial ag is seen by many as normal and organic as "special". Many don't care to spend extra money or effort in acquiring organic crops, they just go for the simpler conventional ones. So I'll just market my product normally, because (in my opinion, at least) organic should be normal, not special. It should be the baseline standard agricultural practice used worldwide, not some special thing that makes elite products for elite consumers. The best way to get people to see that is to start by example, which is a strong part of why I'm doing all of this. If I can have economic success (which is to say, a normal working life) doing all of these things, then I'll be one of the proof-of-concept farmers, proving that it can all work, and providing incentive for others to do the same.


I could highly suggest as some others have mentioned: first research your market, see what is in demand, and try to fill a void or niche.

If for example there's no or little local market for durian, and you find out exporting to be impractical....don't plant an extensive durian farm and hope demand will pickup later. Leave this type of thing until you have already had success with something else.

The exact specifics (the growing techniques you are interested in and asking about) I would say you should start small if you can and expand with what you learn. Plenty of ideas work for many people, but they can also fail for others for a variety of reasons.

My ideas are to look at what the health community and chefs are demanding. Specialty fruit varieties, micro-greens, etc are all possibilities, but you have to see what is wanted first.

Not to say others here will lead you astray, but keep in mind that hobby forums like this are focused on growing what we as individuals like, no matter what the market demands. We can also relatively pick the fruit and stuff it in our face, so marketability of a product isn't as important.

Indeed. I made it a point to avoid confusing what I like with what the people like when compiling my list. I sought advice, checked out local markets, and now I'm reasonably confident that I have a strong choice of crops for starting my farm. Here's hoping it all works out.


I still have to figure out the Food Forest system and compare it with fruit-SALT, as well as decide between annual-SALT and IAC. But at the least, I think I've made my choice between Biointensive and No-dig. I have decided to try them both: ¿Por qué no los dos?  :D

I'll test them both out (though I think No-dig has my favor at the moment), and whichever gives me the most satisfying results (yields proportionate to labor) will be the one I continue. At least until I get my NFT system in place. While I'm at it, I might test hybrid systems as well. Since vegetables are divided into plots (and are short-lived annuals), I can afford to test out different methods while I get the final systems in order. With the other systems that involve trees, I'd like to figure out their pros and cons (relative to my intentions) before getting started, as they will be more permanent: everything must be in order before I start implementing them.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: FrankDrebinOfFruits on June 15, 2017, 05:54:39 PM
Start with a lot of money.... machines are expensive to purchase and upkeep. Farming without machines is back breaking work. Everything is expensive, especially when bought in bulk.

I met a lot of local hippy type people that will give advice, some even have a garden 5'x10'. Most hardly work....but they can give plenty of advise.  Its completely different when you are growing vegetables on 1/4, 1/2, or 1 acre.

Vegetables are the only way to turn a profit in a short period of time (< 5 years). I consider animals tricky, and takes a learning experience, start with 1 or 2, see how it goes.  Do not start with say 100 goats, or 10 cows.

If you like farming, do it as a hobby, not a way to survive. When its easy, or you really enjoy it, then quit a nice paying day job to take the hobby full time.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: pineislander on June 15, 2017, 08:31:16 PM
Caesar, 30 years or so ago I was in your position. I was a 20-something year old engineer who loved to grow things, and had a small farm on St. Croix. Family life eventually took priority, and I didn't have access to cheap land or fresh water, and moved on. I'm in Florida now for retirement and finally living that dream again.
You are lucky to access to the information and resources nowdays, and its good to see you use them. All of the techniques you mention have their place and are worthwhile for you to try. Anyone who tries to be a 'purist' and not experiment with new ideas is practicing a religion.
Some brief advice:
-sounds like you are probably young. When that girl comes along make sure she is willing to live the Jibaro life and has a real Borinquen spirit. Being young you have plenty of time to make mistakes and have fun doing it. Go for your dreams, in midlife its hard to do that.
- Look for reasonably fertile land with a great water source, best would be gravity fed.
- Location needs to be no more than 1 hour from markets, time and gas is expensive.
- Buy the best and most versatile equipment you can afford, poorly built tools that don't hold up cost more & will stall progress.
- Find resources others overlook or consider waste and tap into them.
- Get a teaching job for now. Farming doesn't have 'benefits' including retirement and teachers get lots of time off, know everybody and are respected. You will need some income to support yourself in hard times.
Send me a PM, I have some other ideas you might be able to use. 
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Caesar on June 16, 2017, 02:35:04 PM
Start with a lot of money.... machines are expensive to purchase and upkeep. Farming without machines is back breaking work. Everything is expensive, especially when bought in bulk.

I met a lot of local hippy type people that will give advice, some even have a garden 5'x10'. Most hardly work....but they can give plenty of advise.  Its completely different when you are growing vegetables on 1/4, 1/2, or 1 acre.

Vegetables are the only way to turn a profit in a short period of time (< 5 years). I consider animals tricky, and takes a learning experience, start with 1 or 2, see how it goes.  Do not start with say 100 goats, or 10 cows.

If you like farming, do it as a hobby, not a way to survive. When its easy, or you really enjoy it, then quit a nice paying day job to take the hobby full time.

Duly noted. My municipality actually has some machines in storage that they lend to farmers (for a fee, perhaps?), so I think I'm covered there. Regarding machines, I intend to shy away from the larger, vehicular types after the initial establishment period. I wish to avoid soil compaction. That said, I am looking into smaller, lighter human-or-gas-powered machines for upkeep. They'll likely be tougher to use than vehicles, but easier on the back than simple hand tools like shovels and forks (which will still have their place, as they do on all farms).

Vegetables are my starting point, and I'll definitely be taking it slow with the animals.


Caesar, 30 years or so ago I was in your position. I was a 20-something year old engineer who loved to grow things, and had a small farm on St. Croix. Family life eventually took priority, and I didn't have access to cheap land or fresh water, and moved on. I'm in Florida now for retirement and finally living that dream again.
You are lucky to access to the information and resources nowdays, and its good to see you use them. All of the techniques you mention have their place and are worthwhile for you to try. Anyone who tries to be a 'purist' and not experiment with new ideas is practicing a religion.
Some brief advice:
-sounds like you are probably young. When that girl comes along make sure she is willing to live the Jibaro life and has a real Borinquen spirit. Being young you have plenty of time to make mistakes and have fun doing it. Go for your dreams, in midlife its hard to do that.
- Look for reasonably fertile land with a great water source, best would be gravity fed.
- Location needs to be no more than 1 hour from markets, time and gas is expensive.
- Buy the best and most versatile equipment you can afford, poorly built tools that don't hold up cost more & will stall progress.
- Find resources others overlook or consider waste and tap into them.
- Get a teaching job for now. Farming doesn't have 'benefits' including retirement and teachers get lots of time off, know everybody and are respected. You will need some income to support yourself in hard times.
Send me a PM, I have some other ideas you might be able to use.

It does sound like a dream. I'm glad you're able to enjoy it in retirement, I myself wonder how far this will take me. I hope to be able to work on this for as long as I'm alive.

I feel lucky. I just started reading up on agriculture one day in my teens for a thought experiment. I never imagined I'd find so much excellent information, nor that I'd be so drawn in by the topic. And experimentation is what I wanna do, innovation. Mixing and matching techniques seems like a natural next step.

I'm 27. It took me 7 years for my Bio bachelor's (I had a tough time with MATH, CHEM and PHYS). After that, a year taking miscellaneous Ag courses in Utuado, and a year off while I got myself together. I'm ready to work, and I wanna work hard.

What would a gravity-fed source of water look like? A stream? I've seen some land with streams out there, and I'd consider myself incredibly lucky if I acquired such a plot. There's local markets here in town, and I aim to stick around, give a boost to the local economy.

I wouldn't mind teaching part-time, but I think I need more direct experience under my belt before I start teaching Ag. And if it's a more conventional teaching job at a school, I think I'd have to be certified for that. Plus, the local Economic-Political environment isn't very stable right now with government jobs.  :-\  Nevertheless, I'll definitely look into a part-time job, in case I need the boost (and I probably will).

PM sent.  :)
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Caesar on June 17, 2017, 06:31:53 PM
After some extra digging online, I've found some Food Forest (and other Agroforestry systems) resources that seem to handle the practical aspects fairly well. There's a lot of information in them that helps visualize the structure and formatting well enough, though I think I need to stew on them for a while, to get the clearest mental picture. Here's the links:

* http://www.backyardabundance.org/Portals/0/p/EdibleAgroforestryTemplates.pdf (http://www.backyardabundance.org/Portals/0/p/EdibleAgroforestryTemplates.pdf)

* https://treeyopermacultureedu.wordpress.com/chapter-6-trees/food-forests-or-forest-gardens/ (https://treeyopermacultureedu.wordpress.com/chapter-6-trees/food-forests-or-forest-gardens/)

* https://permacultureapprentice.com/creating-a-food-forest-step-by-step-guide/ (https://permacultureapprentice.com/creating-a-food-forest-step-by-step-guide/)

The first one also touched on a point that I hadn't given much thought to (perhaps because it's too obvious?), that these different techniques (Food Forests and Alley Cropping - and also Silvopasture) are all just variations of one concept: Agroforestry. Other than spacing and grid patterns, I'm not sure they're all that different from one another. Alleys seem like the better choice for slopes, but either one could work fine on flat lands.

So what does this mean for the fruits and other tree crops in my own project? If I acquire sloping land, I'll go for the Alley Cropping SALT method, if at least because it was designed for exactly that context. If it's flat land, I'll give it more thought. Food Forests were actually one of the main concepts that inspired this whole project in the first place, so I will take a while longer to study them and try to come up with a useful outline.

If organized for a commercial context, I'd expect a food forest to look not-unlike an orchard, only offset instead of a square grid, with a greater diversity of fully intercropped trees, and an understory (absent for most orchards). Shade lovers under trees, and sun lovers in the sunny spots between trees. Since I intend to cultivate most of my annual crops in NFT alleys, perhaps I'll leave the Food Forest understory for the perennials.

I could also try to find a midway point between the Alley and Forest methods. Rather than narrow alleys or a broad grid-marked forest, I could do very broad alleys consisting of somewhat narrow grids of tree crops (still much broader than a typical single-file alley) separated with Shelterbelts of NFT's (akin to the tree lines separating typical alleys). I still got some time to figure this out, so any further advice on this topic is appreciated.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Tropicdude on June 17, 2017, 10:45:41 PM
Regarding heavy machinery,  these are often used at the start of the project to make contours, swales, ponds etc.   a well laid out plan, is a must, to save labor down the line,  as FrankDrebinoffruits said,  the fruit trees will take years to get established so,  quick money crops like veggies, herbs, etc is a must,  personally I like Papaya, as a mid term crop, usually start harvesting in about 18 months from seed. 

yes you might need machinery to get things in order at the start, but the whole idea in permaculture design is to minimize the labor input in the long term. once established,  fertilization should be chop and drop.  but even if all you do is harvest,  it can be a lot of work,  unlike commercial farms, with only one or two crops that are harvested all at once. in a system like the one you are planning, you will be harvesting something all year, so all i can say, if this will be worked by you solo, keep the size manageable.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Caesar on June 18, 2017, 05:09:33 PM
Regarding heavy machinery,  these are often used at the start of the project to make contours, swales, ponds etc.   a well laid out plan, is a must, to save labor down the line,  as FrankDrebinoffruits said,  the fruit trees will take years to get established so,  quick money crops like veggies, herbs, etc is a must,  personally I like Papaya, as a mid term crop, usually start harvesting in about 18 months from seed. 

yes you might need machinery to get things in order at the start, but the whole idea in permaculture design is to minimize the labor input in the long term. once established,  fertilization should be chop and drop.  but even if all you do is harvest,  it can be a lot of work,  unlike commercial farms, with only one or two crops that are harvested all at once. in a system like the one you are planning, you will be harvesting something all year, so all i can say, if this will be worked by you solo, keep the size manageable.

Do swales only apply to slopes, or to flat lands as well? And do ponds serve any particular practical applications?

The plan is not quite complete, but it's coming along beautifully! Veggies, herbs, trees, annuals, perennials... I'm reading up on companion planting now for the best guild combinations of my chosen crops. And chop n' drop was what I was hoping for in my system (at least in the long term). I'm not entirely sure I'll be working it completely solo (especially if I'm aiming for a bigger size), but it'd be nice to be able to manage it myself without outside help and without working myself to death.



As for the methods in my OP, I've kept reading and have made my "final" decision. No matter what I get, I will be starting out with No-till veggies (and a Biointensive bed or two, for comparison), before transitioning the veggies to the IAC system (Inga Alley Cropping). As for the Tree Crops, it depends. If my land is small, I'll have to forget about 'em until I move somewhere bigger. If/when I get big enough acreage: If sloped, I'll use SALT4 (the tree crop version); if flat, I probably won't follow SALT to the letter, but instead I'll implement a Food Forest heavily influenced by SALT. For the animals: I'll get a couple of African Geese once the IAC is up and running. On bigger land, a few years after the Tree Crops are up and running, if I find myself up to the task and not overwhelmed, I'll set up a Silvopasture section and get a small herd of Dairy Goats (ideally Nigerian Dwarfs) for personal consumption and artisanal cheese making. If ticks and other bugs become an issue, I'll get some Guineafowl. And I'll likely have a small flock of egg-laying Chickens for personal consumption.

That's as far as my plans go. Hopefully, the system will turn out to be a productive and genuinely eco-friendly example of commercial permaculture. At the very least, I hope to keep myself and my loved ones fed.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Tropicdude on June 19, 2017, 01:05:30 AM
Ponds are usually at the bottom of slopped land , act as a water catchment. and are part of most systems, many plants grow along ponds, plus we must remember the ducks :) down here is where your water loving plants herbs etc, will grow, for example Lotus ,  both seeds and roots are used.  and leaves and flowers are also used in teas,   Blue lotus has some "medicinal" uses smoked.   plus frogs love the pads.  its just one of many water loving plants.

Swales are used to prevent erosion, capture water, this flows underground to feed the pond,  trees as wind brakes, which could be NFT trees also things like vetiver grass etc to keep swales intact are used.  Comfrey is also used,  just make sure to get none spreading types of these.   Vetiver and Comfrey have very deep roots, and once established you will have them forever,  they bring up minerals and nutrients from deep in the soil,  Comfrey is very medicinal as well

Comfrey
https://www.greenharvest.com.au/Plants/Information/Comfrey.html (https://www.greenharvest.com.au/Plants/Information/Comfrey.html)

Vetiver
http://greenharvest.com.au/Plants/Information/Vetiver.html (http://greenharvest.com.au/Plants/Information/Vetiver.html)

these are the none seeding types you would want.

Swales and contours, is probably one of the most important things one can do to prepare uneven land. its all about the water.
http://green-change.com/2011/09/05/swales-for-water-harvesting/ (http://green-change.com/2011/09/05/swales-for-water-harvesting/)


Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Caesar on June 19, 2017, 11:47:27 PM
Ponds are usually at the bottom of slopped land , act as a water catchment. and are part of most systems, many plants grow along ponds, plus we must remember the ducks :) down here is where your water loving plants herbs etc, will grow, for example Lotus ,  both seeds and roots are used.  and leaves and flowers are also used in teas,   Blue lotus has some "medicinal" uses smoked.   plus frogs love the pads.  its just one of many water loving plants.

Swales are used to prevent erosion, capture water, this flows underground to feed the pond,  trees as wind brakes, which could be NFT trees also things like vetiver grass etc to keep swales intact are used.  Comfrey is also used,  just make sure to get none spreading types of these.   Vetiver and Comfrey have very deep roots, and once established you will have them forever,  they bring up minerals and nutrients from deep in the soil,  Comfrey is very medicinal as well

Comfrey
https://www.greenharvest.com.au/Plants/Information/Comfrey.html (https://www.greenharvest.com.au/Plants/Information/Comfrey.html)

Vetiver
http://greenharvest.com.au/Plants/Information/Vetiver.html (http://greenharvest.com.au/Plants/Information/Vetiver.html)

these are the none seeding types you would want.

Swales and contours, is probably one of the most important things one can do to prepare uneven land. its all about the water.
http://green-change.com/2011/09/05/swales-for-water-harvesting/ (http://green-change.com/2011/09/05/swales-for-water-harvesting/)

That's some good info, especially the page on swales. I'm not sure where to get the sterile comfrey, but I have a local source for sterile vetiver at the University at Utuado. I remember they were working on loads of projects with it there. Didn't realize its importance until I was already out (I could've had a plant to propagate by now.  :-[ ).
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: ben mango on June 20, 2017, 01:46:33 PM
animals, especially goats require a lot of attention. personally, i would focus more on growing. one thing that comes before starting a farm obviously is starting a nursery, unless you will be direct sowing vegetable seeds in your beds. eventually you could have some nursery sales alongside your sales from vegetables. if you want to farm more than say an acre you'll need a tractor. plant sun hemp or something then till into the soil and apply fertilizer/compost to insure you are starting with good soil. its not going to be easy or profitable at first but if you are determined enough you can make it work. try growing something that there will be demand for in the markets. celery is good one for here in hawaii since most people don't bother growing it, it requires a lot of water and attention but the demand for it is there. btw, the whole idea of permaculture to me isn't about having a profitable business so much but its more about homesteading. you'll need to decide for yourself are you doing this from a business perspective or because you want to live more sustainably? if the business side is what drives you then you may have a successful /profitable farm. if the sustainability aspect is what drives you the most about it you may find yourself just scraping by but always having the pleasures of being on your farm. a permaculture farm can be profitable for sure but it will take 10-15 years to establish a good one
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Tang Tonic on June 20, 2017, 04:17:26 PM
This is a very interesting discussion.  I live next door on the island of St. Croix.  I am reading this thread and taking notes.  I have one acre for now, looking to acquire another acre next to my existing property.  The area I am located is such that there is additional land beyond the two acres that I could utilize and no one would know the difference.

The big issue for me as pineislandgrower alluded to is lack of freshwater.  This is not really a problem on Puerto Rico.  However, I just built a 35,000 gallon cistern and have a very prolific well right next to he cistern.  The cistern is divided into two compartments.  One will be strictly rain fed from the house I am currently building.  The other will be rain fed and then mixed with the well water which is about 2000 PPM tds.  My employment for the past 10 years or so has been in the reverse osmosis field so I would maybe one day add a small RO unit to remove the TDS from the well water before going to storage in the cistern.  I would like to use the brine for growing spirulina and see that as a huge potential industry here.  The Rastas and health community love their spirulina and there are no local sources for this.

I think the big thing that Caesar and I and any other aspiring farmers on isolated islands need to consider is what can we grow that is not currently being offered to the market.  This has already been stated earlier in this thread but I believe is the most significant consideration.  The climate, rainfall, and soil conditions will impact what one can potentially grow.

At the last agriculture fair we had here, which is an awesome event and well attended by other Caribbean farmers, there was a stand with black sapote.  They had other things on offer but looked like they were really focusing on the chocolate pudding fruit.  There was a lot of interest at their stand and they seemed to be doing well. 

Another consideration for small farmers is value added crops.  For example, right now our island is awash in mangoes.  Everyone and their brother has a mango tree with excellent fruit.  I would put St. Croix at the top for mango production in the Caribbean, its insane how many we have sitting on the ground going to waste right now.  The same is true during Avocado season.  Taking this abundance and producing something to sell at market that costs more than the fruit itself and keeps for longer would be a great way to utilize the excess. 

Some friends of mine recently started a small CSA.  There are others here, but where they are setting themselves apart is with social media.  Posting pictures of their offerings with awesome backdrops and captions.  Very well done and professional looking.  They combine this with offering a menu of different things that can be prepared with whatever they are offering that week.  Then throughout the week they will prepare the items off this menu and post pictures.  Pretty cool idea and seems to be working well for them.

The social media aspect is one that should not be discounted.  Social media is not going anywhere and not only is it free advertising, but it gives farmers a way to showcase their crops, their farms, and what makes their efforts unique.  I have been practicing this on a small scale with just my friends on Instagram but I have noticed when I post pictures of fresh pineapples I have grown, or the latest cassava harvest we had, the response is very positive and people I don't even know start commenting and following my feed.

Not sure what I have said here helps at all, I am a rookie when it comes to all of this but I love growing things and if that passion is there, why not try to make a few bucks with it.  After making a few bucks and improving techniques, perhaps it can support me and my family full time.

Caesar, check out organicfarm.net (http://organicfarm.net)

Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Caesar on June 21, 2017, 12:41:39 AM
animals, especially goats require a lot of attention. personally, i would focus more on growing. one thing that comes before starting a farm obviously is starting a nursery, unless you will be direct sowing vegetable seeds in your beds. eventually you could have some nursery sales alongside your sales from vegetables. if you want to farm more than say an acre you'll need a tractor. plant sun hemp or something then till into the soil and apply fertilizer/compost to insure you are starting with good soil. its not going to be easy or profitable at first but if you are determined enough you can make it work. try growing something that there will be demand for in the markets. celery is good one for here in hawaii since most people don't bother growing it, it requires a lot of water and attention but the demand for it is there. btw, the whole idea of permaculture to me isn't about having a profitable business so much but its more about homesteading. you'll need to decide for yourself are you doing this from a business perspective or because you want to live more sustainably? if the business side is what drives you then you may have a successful /profitable farm. if the sustainability aspect is what drives you the most about it you may find yourself just scraping by but always having the pleasures of being on your farm. a permaculture farm can be profitable for sure but it will take 10-15 years to establish a good one

I figured as much, that's why I planned to include them later (if I did at all), if/when I'm ready for them. I like animals a lot, and want them on my land; if a production situation were too much for me to handle, then I'd have just a couple of individuals (like working pets, in a way). We'll see.

Good catch on the nursery. I had completely forgotten to plan for that but it makes sense, especially in a no-till situation where there'd be no fluffed up soil for the seed to sprout in. As for the tractor, I'd use it for startup: a few initial tilling sessions to prepare the soil for the upcoming crops. After that, I'd keep going with no till, especially once the IAC system kicks in. I want to avoid soil compaction and hardpan in the long run, which is why I'm keeping the tilling and the vehicle activity to the starting phase (if I do them).

My list of crops is based on two things: the need for income (my dominant crops have all been chosen for local marketability, as well as being all round good crops), and the desire to expand the local palates with less well-known species (most of which are at the lower and experimental levels, to ease them into the market - I don't wanna make a huge planting only to find that the people won't buy it, and they're very picky around here).

And that is exactly the point... I don't think the two concepts are inherently mutually exclusive, and I'm looking to explore different methods in the hopes of finding a system that will succeed in doing both without sacrificing either ideal for the other: sustainability and profitability in one system. I use the word profitability loosely here; as I mentioned in the OP, it's more about having a normal, working livelihood with a normal income, not making huge amounts of money. Any extra is appreciated, but as long as my bills are paid and I keep my loved ones fed and clothed, it doesn't matter if my profits aren't huge. The goal for me (other than starting to work, I'm sure old enough) is not just to live sustainably, but to change business practices for the better by bringing sustainability to them. In so doing, I hope to catch the attention of other farmers using less sustainable practices, and convince them to go sustainable as well.


This is a very interesting discussion.  I live next door on the island of St. Croix.  I am reading this thread and taking notes.  I have one acre for now, looking to acquire another acre next to my existing property.  The area I am located is such that there is additional land beyond the two acres that I could utilize and no one would know the difference.

The big issue for me as pineislandgrower alluded to is lack of freshwater.  This is not really a problem on Puerto Rico.  However, I just built a 35,000 gallon cistern and have a very prolific well right next to he cistern.  The cistern is divided into two compartments.  One will be strictly rain fed from the house I am currently building.  The other will be rain fed and then mixed with the well water which is about 2000 PPM tds.  My employment for the past 10 years or so has been in the reverse osmosis field so I would maybe one day add a small RO unit to remove the TDS from the well water before going to storage in the cistern.  I would like to use the brine for growing spirulina and see that as a huge potential industry here.  The Rastas and health community love their spirulina and there are no local sources for this.

I think the big thing that Caesar and I and any other aspiring farmers on isolated islands need to consider is what can we grow that is not currently being offered to the market.  This has already been stated earlier in this thread but I believe is the most significant consideration.  The climate, rainfall, and soil conditions will impact what one can potentially grow.

At the last agriculture fair we had here, which is an awesome event and well attended by other Caribbean farmers, there was a stand with black sapote.  They had other things on offer but looked like they were really focusing on the chocolate pudding fruit.  There was a lot of interest at their stand and they seemed to be doing well. 

Another consideration for small farmers is value added crops.  For example, right now our island is awash in mangoes.  Everyone and their brother has a mango tree with excellent fruit.  I would put St. Croix at the top for mango production in the Caribbean, its insane how many we have sitting on the ground going to waste right now.  The same is true during Avocado season.  Taking this abundance and producing something to sell at market that costs more than the fruit itself and keeps for longer would be a great way to utilize the excess. 

Some friends of mine recently started a small CSA.  There are others here, but where they are setting themselves apart is with social media.  Posting pictures of their offerings with awesome backdrops and captions.  Very well done and professional looking.  They combine this with offering a menu of different things that can be prepared with whatever they are offering that week.  Then throughout the week they will prepare the items off this menu and post pictures.  Pretty cool idea and seems to be working well for them.

The social media aspect is one that should not be discounted.  Social media is not going anywhere and not only is it free advertising, but it gives farmers a way to showcase their crops, their farms, and what makes their efforts unique.  I have been practicing this on a small scale with just my friends on Instagram but I have noticed when I post pictures of fresh pineapples I have grown, or the latest cassava harvest we had, the response is very positive and people I don't even know start commenting and following my feed.

Not sure what I have said here helps at all, I am a rookie when it comes to all of this but I love growing things and if that passion is there, why not try to make a few bucks with it.  After making a few bucks and improving techniques, perhaps it can support me and my family full time.

Caesar, check out organicfarm.net (http://organicfarm.net)

Excellent post, with great perspective. I'm glad to see there's already interest from others in undertaking things like this; I hope you succeed with your projects.

You actually touched upon one of my weaknesses: I still need to figure out how to market and sell product (even if my choices are already "marketable", so to speak). As for value-added processing, I've heard some good stuff about local farmers making things like sofrito, pesto and other such stuff. I'll need to add in a processing section to the infrastructure.

Checking it out, thank you.  :)
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Tropicdude on June 21, 2017, 01:23:45 AM
Regarding goats,  they are a pain in the arse,  they love to eat small trees, you can introduce them once your garden of Eden is established.

Regarding limited water,  permaculture is excellent for this, there are a few videos on youtube, where you can see projects done in even arid desert locations.  also the variety of trees you use can have an impact,  for example, the Canary Pine, can be used to collect dew water right from the air.  dew collects on its long needles, and drips down.   the swales and catchments help retain any little rain and slow it down ( run off ) so it is absorbed into your land.  strategically positioning of trees, to shade more delicate plants during the mid-day or afternoon sun.     find out what plants are adapted naturally to your micro climate, observe to see if other plants grow abundantly near that plant,  if so, it is most likely a good candidate as a support species.  if you can find specimens  that also have other uses,  for example medicinal, or NFT, green manure, natural insecticide etc.  then those are even better.    each location is unique.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Tropheus76 on June 21, 2017, 08:38:07 AM
If I were doing what you are doing Guineafowl would be an early purchase. They produce eggs which are supposedly good eating(I don't eat eggs but my neighbor loves GF eggs), pretty good meat, will keep your farm clear of pests from the get go and act as an alarm system. The from the get go part is important since you don't want to wait to have a problem then order the fowl and wait for 6-8 weeks for them to be old enough to wander around meanwhile your trees are getting devastated by weevils and other pests. That damnable grey with orange striped weevil can strip a four foot mango tree in a matter of days if you aren't paying attention.

You are going to want a light tractor after the initial scaping is done. There is a lot to be said for being able to carry large amounts of dirt, fertilizer, limbs, etc that doing it by hand will get old and back breaking very fast. I think you overestimate the amount of compaction that will occur. Its not like everyone will be driving back and forth in your tree alleys in heavy trucks. At a minimum you will want one of those 4 wheel drive off road golf cart/Gators and a decent trailer for it. All of my neighbors have 2-10 acres and have smaller john deere tractors for everything from putting holes in the ground for trees to bush hogging and grass cutting.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Doug on June 21, 2017, 01:06:21 PM
If I were doing what you are doing Guineafowl would be an early purchase.

How do you buy GFs....chicks or adults? Do they actually stay around the farm? Do they require a coop like chickens or do they live in a wild state? I've heard that GFs live in trees at night so you don't have to be concerned as much about predators like with chickens. I'd really like to buy some...neat birds for an organic garden or farm.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Tropheus76 on June 21, 2017, 01:36:44 PM
Not an expert by any means but I will tell you what I know. Buy them as eggs or one or two day old chicks and keep them dry as getting them wet can kill them apparently although obviously they need water to drink. bring them to their home as soon as you/they can as they will bond to the area. The trick I heard is after the chick stage keep them in a coop for a few weeks to get used to the area and let them out a little each day. They will range about a quarter mile from their coop. You can keep them in a coop at night or not. Obviously if you have predators in the area you will have casualties but GF are quite a bit tougher than chickens when it comes to predators. My neighbor keeps his free at night every now and then until my other neighbor complained they were following his around and walking on their mustang. We have bobcats, raccoons and possums and he didn't have issues but has had regular chickens killed off when accidently left out. They are quite loud and are clearly audible from my garage 250 yards away.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Caesar on June 26, 2017, 11:25:14 AM
I've seen some light tractors available in local stores. I'll check 'em out. If they lack the shortcomings of the bigger vehicles, then they'll be a useful addition to the farm.

Guineafowl are an easy purchase here, quite common enough. I've heard some contradicting info, regarding their supposed lack of taste for vegetables. I'll be adding them early to the tree-planting phase, but not to the annual crop area, just in case.

I've a particular fondness for quail. They're nice little birds, the eggs are excellent despite the small size, and I think the meat sells well enough. This is one of those animals that you can't really free-range, but I'm not too fond of confinement for animals, especially the really tiny cages they're usually raised in. Hoping for a free-range method might be asking too much, but is there a way to raise them with more leg & wing room? The local Ag. Department was getting good results trialing big growing cages on whole plots of vegetables like peppers (it keeps the pests out, and leads to a much bigger harvest). Could quail be integrated to such a system, or would they eat the crops? Whatever pest-eating advantage they could have seems lost if no pests can get in anyway. Perhaps (in a fully established tree system) I could cage up the NTF alleys with panels of caging material between the trees, and run them loose there? I'm just spitballing for the moment, most of these don't seem too practical to me.

And speaking of NTFs, I've had a couple of recommendations for Leucaena here. I've given it some though and even considered retrieving seeds from the local scrubland, but this tree is insanely weedy and hard to eradicate. I haven't rejected it yet (it actually seems very useful), but are there other alternatives that provide a comparable amount of biomass without being so weedy? I actually like a bit of weediness in my plants, it makes them tough survivors, but there is such a thing as overkill. Some types of Alder have consistently been rated as some of the best N-fixers, but I don't know how well the handle chop & drop. At Las Cañadas, they use Alnus acuminata; they also use Flemingia, Calliandra, Tephrosia vogelii, Acacia angustissima, and (admittedly) Leucaena. The SALT method recommends Flemingia macrophylla, Gliricidia sepium, Indigofera anil, Calliandra, and... Leucaena. Can anyone provide a strong argument against the Leucaena? 'Cause I'm finding less and less against it. Or perhaps a strong argument in its favor to help me decide?

In the Fukuoka Food Forest, they use Black Wattle (Acacia mearnsii) and Alder. For the N-fixing cover crops, they use White Clover, Burr Clover, Alfalfa and Lupines. At the University in Utuado, the use Perennial/Forage Peanut. What other good N-fixing cover crops are there? Particularly for the tropics.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Ulfr on June 26, 2017, 05:05:47 PM
I have been reading here for a long time and was happy to just read but I can share regarding your question on quail :)

I've a particular fondness for quail. They're nice little birds, the eggs are excellent despite the small size, and I think the meat sells well enough. This is one of those animals that you can't really free-range, but I'm not too fond of confinement for animals, especially the really tiny cages they're usually raised in. Hoping for a free-range method might be asking too much, but is there a way to raise them with more leg & wing room? The local Ag. Department was getting good results trialing big growing cages on whole plots of vegetables like peppers (it keeps the pests out, and leads to a much bigger harvest). Could quail be integrated to such a system, or would they eat the crops?

I have a mini permaculture style farm where we just grow food for us and a few friends. It's not serious, just for fun. I run a few of these tractors for quail. Currently working on mk11 versions though to fix some issues with these. The birds do great in tractors on a small scale, this doesn't necessarily translate to the scale you would need for profit though.

(https://permies.com/i/571619/quail-tractor.jpg)

(https://permies.com/i/571619/quail-tractor-dripper-pipe.jpg)

If you want details - http://boobookfarm.com/quail-tractor-build/ (http://boobookfarm.com/quail-tractor-build/)
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: nattyfroootz on June 26, 2017, 05:33:02 PM
I might be coming into land some land soon and have been thinking about how I would try and integrate my philosophy onto the land.  I'm a huge believer that supporting native ecosystems is the most valuable thing you can do. I remember reading a study showing that only like 15-20% of native species were capable of feeding or using exotic introduced species.  I've been researching Native cover crop species and native clover species that have been overlooked for their easier to grow European counterparts. 
Might be worth it to see what is native, what grows in your area and what could be a native alternative to introduced invasive species.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: pineislander on June 27, 2017, 06:48:24 AM
For nitrogen fixers you should probably do a mix of all of the species available. You can use them for different purposes, short term like pigeon pea which also produce an edible, long term like gliricidia and calliandra work well for living fences. Yes Leucaena can be weedy if you don't cut & let it seed but you will have it on every farm anyways, along with guinea grass, whether you like it or not. Perennial peanut is a low ground cover but probably won't provide significant chop/drop biomass, has it's place in paths and can eventually dominate out weeds.

Don't underestimate the need for some equipment. Without it some jobs will take forever using a wheelbarrow. A front-end loader around 20-25 HP lifts, dumps and carries 3-4 wheelbarrow loads at a trip with no effort leaving you free and untired for other jobs.
With a few attachments like scraper, tiller, and bush hog you can easily do jobs in minutes which would take days or be nearly impossible otherwise. You may have to go to the US but can probably assemble this set of equipment for about $10,000, less than most people pay for a car. Once bought you can pay for it by hiring out your skills at pretty good rates. A good Kubota tractor is good for 20-30 years. Mine is 1980 running strong after many thousands of hours. 
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Tropicdude on June 27, 2017, 12:24:36 PM
PFAF   Plants for a future

Has a very useful Database of plants I have spent hours using this,  detailed information on 1000s of plants. and their uses.

http://www.pfaf.org/user/Default.aspx (http://www.pfaf.org/user/Default.aspx)
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: FrankDrebinOfFruits on June 27, 2017, 02:01:11 PM
For nitrogen fixers you should probably do a mix of all of the species available. You can use them for different purposes, short term like pigeon pea which also produce an edible, long term like gliricidia and calliandra work well for living fences. Yes Leucaena can be weedy if you don't cut & let it seed but you will have it on every farm anyways, along with guinea grass, whether you like it or not. Perennial peanut is a low ground cover but probably won't provide significant chop/drop biomass, has it's place in paths and can eventually dominate out weeds.

Don't underestimate the need for some equipment. Without it some jobs will take forever using a wheelbarrow. A front-end loader around 20-25 HP lifts, dumps and carries 3-4 wheelbarrow loads at a trip with no effort leaving you free and untired for other jobs.
With a few attachments like scraper, tiller, and bush hog you can easily do jobs in minutes which would take days or be nearly impossible otherwise. You may have to go to the US but can probably assemble this set of equipment for about $10,000, less than most people pay for a car. Once bought you can pay for it by hiring out your skills at pretty good rates. A good Kubota tractor is good for 20-30 years. Mine is 1980 running strong after many thousands of hours.

Lots of truth. I went through 5 wheelbarrows in 4 years, and I wheelbarrowed my back out. Bulging disk. The spinal doctor says my back scan looks like someone 20 years older than my age. Its the age of machines, time for me to bite the bullet and get one sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Doug on June 29, 2017, 07:22:57 PM
Caesar....I assume you are in contact with others in Puerto Rico who have the same goals as you? That seems like the obvious route to finding out the info and answers that you seek. I was looking on Google, and there does seem to be interest in permaculture in PR.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: tanfenton on June 30, 2017, 09:45:34 AM
Caesar,

I'm assuming you are already aware of Eric Toensmeier and his work, but if you aren't, I would HIGHLY recommended pursuing his book The Carbon Farming Solution. This work could be a game-changer for you, and Eric himself will write you back--given enough time--if you formulate a thoughtful e-mail to him.

I would also recommend leaning on the resource of ECHO, in terms of both seeds and knowledge. They have an authoritative library of documents regarding tropical agriculture and a helpful staff willing to assist you in finding what you need. Although small, their physical library at their Durrance Road location contains invaluable resources. If you visit Ft. Myers with a purpose of researching particular crops, copy and scribe all that you can from this material!

Nathaniel
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Caesar on July 01, 2017, 04:14:32 PM
I have been reading here for a long time and was happy to just read but I can share regarding your question on quail :)

I have a mini permaculture style farm where we just grow food for us and a few friends. It's not serious, just for fun. I run a few of these tractors for quail. Currently working on mk11 versions though to fix some issues with these. The birds do great in tractors on a small scale, this doesn't necessarily translate to the scale you would need for profit though.

If you want details - http://boobookfarm.com/quail-tractor-build/ (http://boobookfarm.com/quail-tractor-build/)

It looks like a good system, though I would like to up-size the cages. It's not a battery cage, but it still seems kinda small for them. As for profits, I don't think I'll be getting into animals for profit; more likely, I'll be dealing with them as a matter of personal interest, or as a small-scale artisanal product source. There'll be a lot of stuff in the farm that won't be profitable, because the point isn't to only sell profitable stuff, or to handle everything I have on a profitable scale; the point is for the farm on the whole to yield an ordinary bill-paying paycheck, but not every component will participate in that. There will be a few "moneymaker" crops grown in quantity to bear the economic weight of the farm, and the rest will be maintained for personal consumption, artisanal production, and experimentation.


I might be coming into land some land soon and have been thinking about how I would try and integrate my philosophy onto the land.  I'm a huge believer that supporting native ecosystems is the most valuable thing you can do. I remember reading a study showing that only like 15-20% of native species were capable of feeding or using exotic introduced species.  I've been researching Native cover crop species and native clover species that have been overlooked for their easier to grow European counterparts. 
Might be worth it to see what is native, what grows in your area and what could be a native alternative to introduced invasive species.

I looked into native N-fixing groundcovers. I couldn't find much, unfortunately, but it sounds like a good idea. I'll keep my eye out for further information. As for the rest of the ecosystem, I do have a book on native flowers that I might grow for the pollinators.


For nitrogen fixers you should probably do a mix of all of the species available. You can use them for different purposes, short term like pigeon pea which also produce an edible, long term like gliricidia and calliandra work well for living fences. Yes Leucaena can be weedy if you don't cut & let it seed but you will have it on every farm anyways, along with guinea grass, whether you like it or not. Perennial peanut is a low ground cover but probably won't provide significant chop/drop biomass, has it's place in paths and can eventually dominate out weeds.

Don't underestimate the need for some equipment. Without it some jobs will take forever using a wheelbarrow. A front-end loader around 20-25 HP lifts, dumps and carries 3-4 wheelbarrow loads at a trip with no effort leaving you free and untired for other jobs.
With a few attachments like scraper, tiller, and bush hog you can easily do jobs in minutes which would take days or be nearly impossible otherwise. You may have to go to the US but can probably assemble this set of equipment for about $10,000, less than most people pay for a car. Once bought you can pay for it by hiring out your skills at pretty good rates. A good Kubota tractor is good for 20-30 years. Mine is 1980 running strong after many thousands of hours.

I like the combo idea. And, I think I'll give Leucaena a shot; it makes sense that it wouldn't spread too much under chop 'n' drop. Pigeon pea is BIG in local markets, so it's pretty high up in my list of crops. But would it bear well under a chop 'n' drop regimen?

The light tractor is definitely a done decision now. It'll be a big help while managing the farm on my own, and even if/when I start adding people into the project. I'll look into what's locally available, to see if I find something to fit my needs. If not, I'll check out what's available stateside.


PFAF   Plants for a future

Has a very useful Database of plants I have spent hours using this,  detailed information on 1000s of plants. and their uses.

http://www.pfaf.org/user/Default.aspx (http://www.pfaf.org/user/Default.aspx)

I've actually found a few obscure species with that. Perhaps it'll have something on N-fixers. I'll check it out.


Lots of truth. I went through 5 wheelbarrows in 4 years, and I wheelbarrowed my back out. Bulging disk. The spinal doctor says my back scan looks like someone 20 years older than my age. Its the age of machines, time for me to bite the bullet and get one sooner rather than later.

 :o Dang! This pretty much cements my decision. I already had one hernia (not in the spine, thank God), I'm definitely not eager for worse damage. I'm getting that tractor.


Caesar....I assume you are in contact with others in Puerto Rico who have the same goals as you? That seems like the obvious route to finding out the info and answers that you seek. I was looking on Google, and there does seem to be interest in permaculture in PR.

They mostly call it "Agroecología" over here. Utuado University was definitely in touch with the concept, but I'll be honest, I don't get out much since finishing University. I'm not entirely sure who else to reach out to, besides the people mentioned here.


Caesar,

I'm assuming you are already aware of Eric Toensmeier and his work, but if you aren't, I would HIGHLY recommended pursuing his book The Carbon Farming Solution. This work could be a game-changer for you, and Eric himself will write you back--given enough time--if you formulate a thoughtful e-mail to him.

I would also recommend leaning on the resource of ECHO, in terms of both seeds and knowledge. They have an authoritative library of documents regarding tropical agriculture and a helpful staff willing to assist you in finding what you need. Although small, their physical library at their Durrance Road location contains invaluable resources. If you visit Ft. Myers with a purpose of researching particular crops, copy and scribe all that you can from this material!

Nathaniel

I'm only mildly familiar, but I had glimpsed the book, and it seemed like pure gold. I just checked it out, and it's available on amazon, so I'm putting in an order for it.

I do have some ECHO documents stored away, as well as some questions to ask about them, so I'll be contacting them soon. I checked them out just now, and they have loads more stuff than I first realized, so I'll be storing every relevant document that I can find.



I'm still waiting on the call (which should happen no earlier than Wednesday), but I've been told my paperwork seems promising, and that no one else has turned in any paperwork, so here's hoping they'll concede a plot of land. With any luck, it'll all start before year's end.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Ulfr on July 01, 2017, 07:31:54 PM
Each of the bays is bigger than it looks (3ft x 2ft) but I'm also moving to larger ones with the mk11. The problem with going too large in a quail tractor is that you need to be able to catch te little buggers :)
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Balaman on July 02, 2017, 12:56:40 AM
PFAF   Plants for a future

Has a very useful Database of plants I have spent hours using this,  detailed information on 1000s of plants. and their uses.

http://www.pfaf.org/user/Default.aspx (http://www.pfaf.org/user/Default.aspx)

The focus of the www.pfaf.org (http://www.pfaf.org) website is temperate plants. For tropical and subtropical plants visit http://www.iplantz.com/. (http://www.iplantz.com/.) Granted they have fewer plants, but the information is better researched.

As with any farming venture, deciding what plants to cultivate should start with what market you're trying to serve and what opportunities exist in that market. For example, if your farm is on a tropical island that is visited by tourists you may want to consider that market, in terms of supplying food to hotels and restaurants that serve the market. However, relying solely on the tourist market has it drawbacks, not least of which is that it is seasonal. So targeting other markets is essential. These may include local supermarkets, the restaurant and catering trades, or even the export market. Example of products that could be supplied to each market:

Tourist market: Fresh fruit, veg and herbs (e.g. Papaya, Exotic citrus such as Finger lime, Buddha's hand, Exotic fresh herbs such as Epazote, Cuban oregano, Saw-toothed clintro, Edible flowers etc); Value add product: Sugar cane swizzle sticks; Juice of sour orange for marinades and bar drinks, etc.) The idea here is to focus on niche produce that grow well in the area and can be produced with consistent quality, supplied quickly and is preferably organic. Niche produce means you are producing small quantities of an exotic product, so that you're not competing against large commercial operations with their economies of scale. Even large hotels buy small quantities of some product, in some cases to serve specialist restaurants within their overall offering. For example, my uncle used to grow a very large papaya variety on a quarter acre block and sold all papaya to a few large hotels in Montego Bay. Why did large hotels buy small quantities of a large papaya? They made great display items when carved. They were not for eating.

Local markets: Product may be similar to the tourist market but with supply not restricted to the winter tourist season. This means, for example, fresh herbs that can be produced and supplied in the winter as well as throughout the humid summer months. This has implications for what is selected to be cultivated, as not all culinary herbs do well in both the dry winter and humid summer season. And don't forget Farmers Markets, these are springing up everywhere. The list goes on..  P.S. There is also the possibility of producing honey from nectar producing plants in your area, single floral or multi-floral.

Export market: Dried fruit, Dried herbs, Dried spices, Dried flowers, Essential oils to name a few and all organically grown. Dried, organically grown produce is in high demand, is cost effective to transport and has a long shelf-life. Here are a few essential oil yielding plants to consider: http://www.iplantz.com/search/?sortBy=botanicalName&facetFilter%5BiDictUseRawMaterial%5D%5B%5D=Essential+oil (http://www.iplantz.com/search/?sortBy=botanicalName&facetFilter%5BiDictUseRawMaterial%5D%5B%5D=Essential+oil)

There are many other market segments, but each needs to be researched and evaluated.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Caesar on July 13, 2017, 05:07:49 PM
Each of the bays is bigger than it looks (3ft x 2ft) but I'm also moving to larger ones with the mk11. The problem with going too large in a quail tractor is that you need to be able to catch te little buggers :)

Well, catching is half the fun! But yeah, I can see how that might be a problem. I was hoping to tame them to some degree, though I'm not sure how feasible that is. Tame quail don't run, or at least that's what I hoped.


PFAF   Plants for a future

Has a very useful Database of plants I have spent hours using this,  detailed information on 1000s of plants. and their uses.

http://www.pfaf.org/user/Default.aspx (http://www.pfaf.org/user/Default.aspx)

The focus of the www.pfaf.org (http://www.pfaf.org) website is temperate plants. For tropical and subtropical plants visit http://www.iplantz.com/. (http://www.iplantz.com/.) Granted they have fewer plants, but the information is better researched.

As with any farming venture, deciding what plants to cultivate should start with what market you're trying to serve and what opportunities exist in that market. For example, if your farm is on a tropical island that is visited by tourists you may want to consider that market, in terms of supplying food to hotels and restaurants that serve the market. However, relying solely on the tourist market has it drawbacks, not least of which is that it is seasonal. So targeting other markets is essential. These may include local supermarkets, the restaurant and catering trades, or even the export market. Example of products that could be supplied to each market:

Tourist market: Fresh fruit, veg and herbs (e.g. Papaya, Exotic citrus such as Finger lime, Buddha's hand, Exotic fresh herbs such as Epazote, Cuban oregano, Saw-toothed clintro, Edible flowers etc); Value add product: Sugar cane swizzle sticks; Juice of sour orange for marinades and bar drinks, etc.) The idea here is to focus on niche produce that grow well in the area and can be produced with consistent quality, supplied quickly and is preferably organic. Niche produce means you are producing small quantities of an exotic product, so that you're not competing against large commercial operations with their economies of scale. Even large hotels buy small quantities of some product, in some cases to serve specialist restaurants within their overall offering. For example, my uncle used to grow a very large papaya variety on a quarter acre block and sold all papaya to a few large hotels in Montego Bay. Why did large hotels buy small quantities of a large papaya? They made great display items when carved. They were not for eating.

Local markets: Product may be similar to the tourist market but with supply not restricted to the winter tourist season. This means, for example, fresh herbs that can be produced and supplied in the winter as well as throughout the humid summer months. This has implications for what is selected to be cultivated, as not all culinary herbs do well in both the dry winter and humid summer season. And don't forget Farmers Markets, these are springing up everywhere. The list goes on..  P.S. There is also the possibility of producing honey from nectar producing plants in your area, single floral or multi-floral.

Export market: Dried fruit, Dried herbs, Dried spices, Dried flowers, Essential oils to name a few and all organically grown. Dried, organically grown produce is in high demand, is cost effective to transport and has a long shelf-life. Here are a few essential oil yielding plants to consider: http://www.iplantz.com/search/?sortBy=botanicalName&facetFilter%5BiDictUseRawMaterial%5D%5B%5D=Essential+oil (http://www.iplantz.com/search/?sortBy=botanicalName&facetFilter%5BiDictUseRawMaterial%5D%5B%5D=Essential+oil)

There are many other market segments, but each needs to be researched and evaluated.


Duly noted, I've bookmarked the sources for reference.

That's really good advice, and while I thought about extra markets, I hadn't considered them in full. Essentially, my crop list was mostly focused on local markets (especially tiers 1-3 of plants, and tiers 1 & 2 of tree crops). Everything that was included but fell past those tiers was essentially included for me to experiment with, but I get the feeling a lot of it might be useful for the tourism and exportation niches (and even the crops from the local tiers). I had also considered value added products (someone once told me they were an advantage to the farmer), and with my list of crops, possibilities for them abound, but as they require more resources to manage (equipment, mostly) and come into play after the farm is already established, I haven't decided in full just how to handle that part yet. I'm mostly in the brainstorming area with that. Sofrito and other such condiments are a given, jams and jellies are a possibility. Fritters, confectionery, flours and other stuff have also been considered. For now, I'm waiting to see how it all turns out. I'm still waiting on the call.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: kmwilli6 on July 17, 2017, 10:30:22 PM
Hello Caesar,

I have been following this thread and I am very interested in what you are doing. I myself am starting a food forest project right now and will post about it in the coming months.

As for food forests, the best reference I have found is a Geoff Lawton film called Establishing a Food Forest. In the first 15 minutes he really breaks down the concept and how it is implemented through space and time (google "Geoff Lawton establishing a food forest" and you will find the film). It is an excellent film well worth watching.

Something to add if it applies, but if you have the invasive brazilian pepper like I do, you can make biochar from it instead of just burning it or disposing of it otherwise. I hear biochar is invaluable, but have not yet used it.

Hope this helps and I'm excited to see how your project grows!

Kevin
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: mangomike on July 22, 2017, 09:49:35 PM
 I would also agree with others that the use of heavy equipment to install all your earthworks as a first step is essential, especially in rainy tropical climates prone to erosion. The cost for this should be factored into your down payment. Once that is done a small walking tractor can be an essential and very scale-appropriate tool; see the videos at https://earthtoolsbcs.com to get an understanding of how much labor these implements can  save over hand tools. I have used some of these attachments (cultivator,chipper) when I had my own farm and was able to work several acres of vegetables with only 1 part-time helper; would have been impossible with hand tools. I didn't experience any ground compaction in the three years I was on this site (I heavily ripped it with a D-9 prior to planting however).

Good luck on your project and keep the forum posted!

Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Caesar on July 26, 2017, 11:05:44 PM
Hello Caesar,

I have been following this thread and I am very interested in what you are doing. I myself am starting a food forest project right now and will post about it in the coming months.

As for food forests, the best reference I have found is a Geoff Lawton film called Establishing a Food Forest. In the first 15 minutes he really breaks down the concept and how it is implemented through space and time (google "Geoff Lawton establishing a food forest" and you will find the film). It is an excellent film well worth watching.

Something to add if it applies, but if you have the invasive brazilian pepper like I do, you can make biochar from it instead of just burning it or disposing of it otherwise. I hear biochar is invaluable, but have not yet used it.

Hope this helps and I'm excited to see how your project grows!

Kevin

Hi Kevin! I look forward to reading about your own project. I hope you've found my thread as useful as I've found the answers to be. This website is pure gold.

I did a preliminary search and failed to find said film, but I'm gonna dig deeper as soon as I'm able. I haven't been able to read up on the latest info 'cause of family issues (no drama though). But I hope to throw myself into this work after summer's done. I was actually hoping to have an answer when next I posted, but they've yet to call me back regarding the land. I'll be visiting their offices soon, to check up.

I had initially thought to compost whatever local weedy trees I got, but if I get a charcoal drum up and running early, that'll definitely be my preferred choice.


I would also agree with others that the use of heavy equipment to install all your earthworks as a first step is essential, especially in rainy tropical climates prone to erosion. The cost for this should be factored into your down payment. Once that is done a small walking tractor can be an essential and very scale-appropriate tool; see the videos at https://earthtoolsbcs.com to get an understanding of how much labor these implements can  save over hand tools. I have used some of these attachments (cultivator,chipper) when I had my own farm and was able to work several acres of vegetables with only 1 part-time helper; would have been impossible with hand tools. I didn't experience any ground compaction in the three years I was on this site (I heavily ripped it with a D-9 prior to planting however).

Good luck on your project and keep the forum posted!

The heavy equipment will come curtesy of the municipality (I would assume for a fee). Thanks for the link, by the way, saved it. They got some pretty interesting tools in there. I had thought about a UTV with attachments for long term farm maintenance (as long as soil compaction doesn't occur, or isn't a problem if it does), but I'm still thinking these details over. And multiple acres with minimal help is impressive. Thanks for letting me know, it's a big confidence booster.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Caesar on July 28, 2017, 12:13:43 PM
Having talked about Organic Farming & Permaculture on two threads, there is one more thing I'd like to mention. I don't know for certain that it works. I don't know for certain that such techniques are capable of feeding the masses, producing on par with conventional techniques. I don't know for certain that they're capable of supplanting industrial agriculture. I've very little evidence, not much to provide (if anyone does, chime in). I've mostly gone off of secondary sources (their primary sources, I've not been able to evaluate). However, I am a biologist, it's what I studied (and was reading up on my own terms long before college). Most of what I've read makes sense, seems sound in regards to the science (and there are some that seem to be having success). And the idea of providing food without destroying the environment is an attractive one (plus doing so self-sufficiently, with minimal outside resources after establishment). So, I've decided to put it to the test myself, and that is what this thread is about. I aim to put all that knowledge, all those organic & permaculture techniques to the test in the way the common man, the common farmer, would be interested: as my livelihood, as a way to pay bills, put food on the table, and give my family a comfortable life (for a certain value of comfort), documenting it every step of the way. If I succeed, then it's as I said earlier: proof-of-concept, and incentive for others to do the same with what I hope to be a productive and eco-friendly system. If I fail, then it'll show either that it doesn't work, or the pitfalls to avoid to ensure that it does work.

So in short, the point of this post? I'm not just going into this with blind loyalty to a concept (that wouldn't be good science at all). I promote it because it makes sense and I have seen some good results. But I'm willing to recognize that it might not work (experience will teach me, if so), and that it might not be for everyone. Having said that, I'm reasonably confident that it'll all work out. If it doesn't, you'll all be the first to know.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: kmwilli6 on July 31, 2017, 03:00:09 PM
Sorry Caesar, should've just posted the link, but wasn't too sure on the ethics of it. But since I see people do it all the time I guess its cool...

http://realfarmacy.com/establishing-a-food-forest-full-film/ (http://realfarmacy.com/establishing-a-food-forest-full-film/)

Kevin
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: shinzo on August 03, 2017, 09:30:56 AM
Nice thread, this is my dream too to start such a farm.
To add some ideas in the brainstorming side of the thread, have you considered agrotourism to support you financially while operating your farm ? a couple of in-the-farm rooms dedicated to passionated tourists who want to live the experience of a permaculture farmer for a couple of days may provide you a secondary income, be a source to use your local grown food, and if you have the chance to host some motivated guests they may even give you a hand in your daily farming activities. Besides, this may give your wife an occupation managing this component of the Farm.
I don't know if your local environement is favorable for such activity, but you may think about this option if it can help you financially to realise your dream.
Best wishes for success
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Caesar on August 04, 2017, 02:32:23 PM
Sorry Caesar, should've just posted the link, but wasn't too sure on the ethics of it. But since I see people do it all the time I guess its cool...

http://realfarmacy.com/establishing-a-food-forest-full-film/ (http://realfarmacy.com/establishing-a-food-forest-full-film/)

Kevin

Thanks! I'll check it out, saved the link.


Nice thread, this is my dream too to start such a farm.
To add some ideas in the brainstorming side of the thread, have you considered agrotourism to support you financially while operating your farm ? a couple of in-the-farm rooms dedicated to passionated tourists who want to live the experience of a permaculture farmer for a couple of days may provide you a secondary income, be a source to use your local grown food, and if you have the chance to host some motivated guests they may even give you a hand in your daily farming activities. Besides, this may give your wife an occupation managing this component of the Farm.
I don't know if your local environement is favorable for such activity, but you may think about this option if it can help you financially to realise your dream.
Best wishes for success

It's too soon to tell if I could handle agritourism (perhaps later, with some help?) as it adds a level of complexity to the project. At any rate, while the idea sounds fair enough, if I get a second job, I'd rather have it separately from this farm rather than being a facet of it. It's mostly the principal of the thing (though I'll admit, principals don't always pay the bills). I'm trying to prove (if it is true) that permaculture can be competitive with conventional farming (while remaining eco-friendly), and thus, make it appealing to the average farmer. Most conventional farms derive their income from product, so to be a fair one-on-one comparison, I believe mine should have product as its economic foundation as well. I see a lot of permaculture projects out there that are fascinating and excellent, but one thing most of them share in common is that agritourism is their biggest source of income. You don't get to see if the crops are actually economically viable in that setting, because they're not being used as the economic foundation. And that is my entire point... To see if permaculture can be competitive with conventional ag, the comparison ought to be one-on-one (to an extent). Not every farmer would be on board with operating an agritourism site, but most of them would be on board with a productive system that requires minimal input in the long-term. I might be open to adding agritourism in the long run, as I'm sure it'd help. But for the first many years, I want to run it as a simple farm. No extras. That way, any success can be attributed to crops, and crops alone.

Ultimately though, I'm not going to say "no" either. Time will tell if I need to make use of previously-rejected ideas to keep myself afloat. I hope to document the ups and downs right here on this thread. And for the record, yes, agritourism is big over here. So for any other Boricuas looking at this thread for ideas, this is a good one.  :)
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Caesar on October 16, 2017, 09:13:10 PM
Hello everyone. I'm happy to report that I've been doing relatively well in the aftermath of hurricane Maria (diesel generator, accessible water - working pipes now -, and good food), and that my current collection is relatively intact, with only one exotic being strongly damaged (an Achachairu tree). Even the Dioscorea bulbifera is still there, growing on the trellis, unaffected by the storm. My collection survived due to the small size and young age of the trees (and the strategic placement of the ones still remaining in pots). The exotics turned out alright, but I lost all three of my mature avocado trees, large and in the midst of a good crop, completely uprooted. And the partial-to-full destruction seen in most of the trees in the countryside is surprising in its scale. For all my good fortune, I never imagined the entire island could sustain so much damage from a storm. The event shocked me to my core, and made me question my future at length.

I started this project as a thought experiment many years ago while I was still studying for my bachelors degree. It quickly grew into a labor of love, and while it never left the flexible stage of the theoretical into the practical, I had high hopes that I would someday accomplish much with it. I wanted to put theories to the test, bring true permaculture into the mainstream (at least in PR), focus on tree crops (which are mostly neglected in modern agriculture), expand the local palate with new choices, innovate in any way I could, and ultimately contribute to the food security of the island, both directly with my own farm, and indirectly through example. Dread and a sense of barren futility set in after the storm, and I thought I would never get that chance.

I thought about my options long and hard. While it's true that storms of this magnitude are rare on the island, the fact remains that the hurricane season is a yearly occurrence, and only chance or divine providence has kept such storms rare. There's nothing that would guarantee they would remain rare in the face of a changing climate. Some consider it foolhardy to plan one's life around unpredictable natural disasters, but that's exactly the point: hurricanes are not unpredictable. Their season is yearly and cyclic, like clockwork, and their presence is guaranteed in this general part of the world; the only unpredictable thing about them is whether they'll pass you by or hit you head on. Strong weather and geological events abound throughout the world, but they tend to be scattered and isolated events, truly unpredictable; few places have such a consistent cyclic risk of disaster (even if it rarely delivers on the threat). The threat is always there, in a way that random isolated events never are. I can live with the idea of having my efforts destroyed by a truly random event (something I never could've planned for), but to try the exact same plan in a place with a perpetual clockwork risk of disaster feels like I'm setting myself up for failure, painstakingly building something up that I know will be destroyed in a matter of time by a ticking time bomb. Such a prospect is completely unacceptable to me. So it was back to the drawing board, trying to salvage what I could from my plans (which, thankfully, are still theoretical; I still hadn't received a call for the paperwork I sent in, trying to acquire land).

I thought about doing it anyway, and I concluded that I couldn't. Even if I could handle the emotional impact of my work undone, the economic impact of a destroyed tree farm would probably bankrupt me. That means that (NFT's not withstanding), tree crops are out of the question for me as a dominant aspect of the farm (thus hurting that particular founding principle for me, here on the island). I thought about continuing the farm without the tree crops, but it feels like too much is missing, like the intended project was ultimately defeated. I thought about moving stateside, but even if the coasts were free from hurricane risk (which they're not), the warmest part of the mainland is still too cold during winter for some of the tropical trees I was hoping to trial; as for Hawaii, it's a little too far for my comfort, I don't know their weather patterns, and I've heard the cost of living is high there. I thought about moving to Nicaragua, Costa Rica, or even Brazil, where I could complete the project at a safe distance from such consistent yearly threats (provided those places don't have a hurricane season). But they share one trait in common with the US: they're not PR (so for all their completeness, any farms there would not contribute to the food security of my homeland). And besides, I've no family there, and I personally don't want to put much distance between me and them.

I was close to giving up entirely, but I've worked too hard for too long to give up on this. Some other job is necessary now, so at least that has changed: I wanted the project to stand by itself economically, as described earlier in the thread, but even before the storm I had come to accept the certainty that I need another job to acquire a firm economic foundation for myself. I was about to start the job search when the storm hit. In the aftermath, I noticed many staple crops were running low in the local markets, and I realized that with the yearly risk of storms, a strong food supply is necessary here, now more than ever. And that has kept me from giving up.

I still plan on getting a job as soon as I'm able (hopefully something in line with my Biology major), but I've also decided to combine some of the prior ideas and rebuild my fractured plans on them. I intend to start a farm here after I get a job. It will use some of the NFT alley crop methods as a basis, and I will focus on staples, vegetables and smaller fruiting plants. The Tree Crop section will be small compared to prior plans, and will consist mainly of Avocados (easily replaced if lost) and Breadfruit (quick to grow back from a broken trunk). That way I get to practice permaculture (even if the selection of tree crops is diminished) and contribute to the local food security, while being at minimal risk of strong economic loss (few and common trees to lose, and readily replaceable annual crops; hacked up NFT's should weather the storm nicely). Once I'm economically stable, I hope to acquire land in Central America later on, to grow the missing half of my farm: the exotic tree crops. I'd get to satisfy my desire for tropical fruit without living in yearly fear of hurricanes ripping them out of the ground. If I could ship the fruit into PR, I'd get the pleasure of expanding the local palate as well (even if they weren't grown there). Staple crops on the island, fruiting trees in Central America, and all my intended boxes checked. It's a little more complicated than I had hoped, but hopefully doable.

Any thoughts or advice in relation to this? And regarding acquiring land elsewhere?
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: pineislander on October 18, 2017, 05:56:48 AM
Caesar, it's good that you had a chance to gain experience before you took a loss and know the risks. There really is no better teacher than experience. This is a forum about growing tropical fruit crops. Most of the tropics are subject to extreme weather threats including wind, water, and even heat, drought, and fire. All of these hazards need to be considered. The folks in California which were recently wiped out by fire are a good example.

So, what to do?
Design into your system resistance to those elements.
It really is folly to have 40 ft. Haden trees surrounding your flimsy trailer house as a hurricane approaches or to have dry mulched beds, cedar shingle roofs, vinyl siding, and gutters full of pine needles in a on a house in the fire prone areas of California. Looking back, what the hell were we thinking would happen?

This forum has plenty of folks with experience with hurricanes, accumulated decades and likely even centuries of lessons learned from across the world if you add us all up. There should be ways to mitigate and protect orchards against wind and water, at least to some extent. We probably need a dedicated thread on the subject, and I know it has been discussed some already.

You spoke about becoming a leader in your community and proving concepts. Well, there you go, this is a challenge to face in which you could help find solutions to this perennial problem. All of us can and should be doing these things.



 
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: shinzo on October 19, 2017, 12:26:20 PM
Hello everyone. I'm happy to report that I've been doing relatively well in the aftermath of hurricane Maria (diesel generator, accessible water - working pipes now -, and good food), and that my current collection is relatively intact, with only one exotic being strongly damaged (an Achachairu tree). Even the Dioscorea bulbifera is still there, growing on the trellis, unaffected by the storm. My collection survived due to the small size and young age of the trees (and the strategic placement of the ones still remaining in pots). The exotics turned out alright, but I lost all three of my mature avocado trees, large and in the midst of a good crop, completely uprooted. And the partial-to-full destruction seen in most of the trees in the countryside is surprising in its scale. For all my good fortune, I never imagined the entire island could sustain so much damage from a storm. The event shocked me to my core, and made me question my future at length.

I started this project as a thought experiment many years ago while I was still studying for my bachelors degree. It quickly grew into a labor of love, and while it never left the flexible stage of the theoretical into the practical, I had high hopes that I would someday accomplish much with it. I wanted to put theories to the test, bring true permaculture into the mainstream (at least in PR), focus on tree crops (which are mostly neglected in modern agriculture), expand the local palate with new choices, innovate in any way I could, and ultimately contribute to the food security of the island, both directly with my own farm, and indirectly through example. Dread and a sense of barren futility set in after the storm, and I thought I would never get that chance.

I thought about my options long and hard. While it's true that storms of this magnitude are rare on the island, the fact remains that the hurricane season is a yearly occurrence, and only chance or divine providence has kept such storms rare. There's nothing that would guarantee they would remain rare in the face of a changing climate. Some consider it foolhardy to plan one's life around unpredictable natural disasters, but that's exactly the point: hurricanes are not unpredictable. Their season is yearly and cyclic, like clockwork, and their presence is guaranteed in this general part of the world; the only unpredictable thing about them is whether they'll pass you by or hit you head on. Strong weather and geological events abound throughout the world, but they tend to be scattered and isolated events, truly unpredictable; few places have such a consistent cyclic risk of disaster (even if it rarely delivers on the threat). The threat is always there, in a way that random isolated events never are. I can live with the idea of having my efforts destroyed by a truly random event (something I never could've planned for), but to try the exact same plan in a place with a perpetual clockwork risk of disaster feels like I'm setting myself up for failure, painstakingly building something up that I know will be destroyed in a matter of time by a ticking time bomb. Such a prospect is completely unacceptable to me. So it was back to the drawing board, trying to salvage what I could from my plans (which, thankfully, are still theoretical; I still hadn't received a call for the paperwork I sent in, trying to acquire land).

I thought about doing it anyway, and I concluded that I couldn't. Even if I could handle the emotional impact of my work undone, the economic impact of a destroyed tree farm would probably bankrupt me. That means that (NFT's not withstanding), tree crops are out of the question for me as a dominant aspect of the farm (thus hurting that particular founding principle for me, here on the island). I thought about continuing the farm without the tree crops, but it feels like too much is missing, like the intended project was ultimately defeated. I thought about moving stateside, but even if the coasts were free from hurricane risk (which they're not), the warmest part of the mainland is still too cold during winter for some of the tropical trees I was hoping to trial; as for Hawaii, it's a little too far for my comfort, I don't know their weather patterns, and I've heard the cost of living is high there. I thought about moving to Nicaragua, Costa Rica, or even Brazil, where I could complete the project at a safe distance from such consistent yearly threats (provided those places don't have a hurricane season). But they share one trait in common with the US: they're not PR (so for all their completeness, any farms there would not contribute to the food security of my homeland). And besides, I've no family there, and I personally don't want to put much distance between me and them.

I was close to giving up entirely, but I've worked too hard for too long to give up on this. Some other job is necessary now, so at least that has changed: I wanted the project to stand by itself economically, as described earlier in the thread, but even before the storm I had come to accept the certainty that I need another job to acquire a firm economic foundation for myself. I was about to start the job search when the storm hit. In the aftermath, I noticed many staple crops were running low in the local markets, and I realized that with the yearly risk of storms, a strong food supply is necessary here, now more than ever. And that has kept me from giving up.

I still plan on getting a job as soon as I'm able (hopefully something in line with my Biology major), but I've also decided to combine some of the prior ideas and rebuild my fractured plans on them. I intend to start a farm here after I get a job. It will use some of the NFT alley crop methods as a basis, and I will focus on staples, vegetables and smaller fruiting plants. The Tree Crop section will be small compared to prior plans, and will consist mainly of Avocados (easily replaced if lost) and Breadfruit (quick to grow back from a broken trunk). That way I get to practice permaculture (even if the selection of tree crops is diminished) and contribute to the local food security, while being at minimal risk of strong economic loss (few and common trees to lose, and readily replaceable annual crops; hacked up NFT's should weather the storm nicely). Once I'm economically stable, I hope to acquire land in Central America later on, to grow the missing half of my farm: the exotic tree crops. I'd get to satisfy my desire for tropical fruit without living in yearly fear of hurricanes ripping them out of the ground. If I could ship the fruit into PR, I'd get the pleasure of expanding the local palate as well (even if they weren't grown there). Staple crops on the island, fruiting trees in Central America, and all my intended boxes checked. It's a little more complicated than I had hoped, but hopefully doable.

Any thoughts or advice in relation to this? And regarding acquiring land elsewhere?
Good luck Caesar. You may consider papaya also as they are fast growing plants and the plantations are replaced at a periodical bases with or without hurricanes according to my readings concerning commercial papaya plantations. it helps you mitigate the damage if the trees are down by a hurricane.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Solko on October 21, 2017, 08:32:03 AM
Hi Caesar,

I think you are doing everything right, step by step. I got interested in permaculture and fruit breeding both out of curiosity and idealism, but I do have another education, job and passion which is my ‘first love’.
On the other hand I always fantasized about my ‘plant hobby’ to someday be able to generate some money or income, but after eight years of spending a lot of time and thoughts on it I realize that that is very hard to do ‘on the side’ . I am afraid there is not a lot of ‘passive income’ to generate from farm work and fruit breeding is by now an equally complex art, so adjusted to market demands it has become not only an enormous long shot, but in order to develop new varieties into a licensed or patented product that generates money ‘passively’ you have to work full time at it. So the ‘passive’ part is very relative.

Nonetheless some permaculture farms that are well planned and thought through have flourished and taken off also commercially. These are truly admirable enterprises and have given a better idea on how to make such a thing work. All of them take it as seriously hard work and research their context and market extensively, start small and scale things up later.
You might want to check out the videos of this guy:
https://youtu.be/p__7st7Q6ic

Good luck!

Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Caesar on May 29, 2018, 07:11:12 PM
Hi all. I've been a bit busy, which is why I held off on posting in this particular thread, as I wanted some time for a proper and full reply. I have taken the advice you've all given to heart, and I'm here to say: the plan is back on. I came to realize that this project is too important to let go, and that there are solutions for the challenges we face here on the island, even hurricanes. So I will not be executing that modified plan I mentioned in my last post... I'm going for the original. So what has changed? Half of the solution was right in front of my eyes, and I hadn't even seen it. The other half was provided by the very purpose the project was founded on: Permaculture.

For one thing, not every tree in the countryside was ripped up. Indeed, most of the trees remain standing and have regrown beautifully from snapped or broken trunks. And even broken trees have their purpose. So in the spirit of permaculture, I have decided to integrate the storm's natural destructive power into the farm itself. Chainsaws, wood-chippers and any relevant resources and infrastructure will be included in the farm to turn the fallen trees into valuable biomass, from compost to biochar. I will figure out how to restore damaged trees to full productive health, and I will make due with what I have to make the project work as best it can.

Regarding the other solution... A large and protected nursery. I intend to keep a large collection of replacement trees for all the species in my project (with emphasis on the more important and the more vulnerable ones). With every loss on my farm there will be younger replacements at hand, which I will replace in turn in the nursery for the next big disaster.

Any further improvements on the plan will be evaluated and incorporated as I gain experience. In short, neither rain nor sleet nor gale-force winds will stop my project. It's one of the most important things I hope to achieve, and any further challenges will be welcomed as a learning experience for myself and for others who may wish to learn from my trials. That is the end of it.

As I mentioned in my last post, there is one aspect that remains changed. The job. So far, no answers to my applications, so while I look further, I'll be applying for a position in my local factory in a few weeks. Meanwhile, I'm broke. They haven't called me back regarding the plot of land I applied for either, so I'm not gonna count on that unless I actually get a call someday.

*

Good luck Caesar. You may consider papaya also as they are fast growing plants and the plantations are replaced at a periodical bases with or without hurricanes according to my readings concerning commercial papaya plantations. it helps you mitigate the damage if the trees are down by a hurricane.

Papayas are part of my plan. I'd like to trial Babaco too.  :)


Caesar, it's good that you had a chance to gain experience before you took a loss and know the risks. There really is no better teacher than experience. This is a forum about growing tropical fruit crops. Most of the tropics are subject to extreme weather threats including wind, water, and even heat, drought, and fire. All of these hazards need to be considered. The folks in California which were recently wiped out by fire are a good example.

So, what to do?
Design into your system resistance to those elements.
It really is folly to have 40 ft. Haden trees surrounding your flimsy trailer house as a hurricane approaches or to have dry mulched beds, cedar shingle roofs, vinyl siding, and gutters full of pine needles in a on a house in the fire prone areas of California. Looking back, what the hell were we thinking would happen?

This forum has plenty of folks with experience with hurricanes, accumulated decades and likely even centuries of lessons learned from across the world if you add us all up. There should be ways to mitigate and protect orchards against wind and water, at least to some extent. We probably need a dedicated thread on the subject, and I know it has been discussed some already.

You spoke about becoming a leader in your community and proving concepts. Well, there you go, this is a challenge to face in which you could help find solutions to this perennial problem. All of us can and should be doing these things.

I haven't kept myself up to date. How are people doing in California lately, in the aftermath of the fires? They're not still going on, are they? I hope everyone's doing better. I was just shocked by a recent study that says the death toll on PR is over 4,000. I suspected it was much higher than the local government numbers, but I never imagined it could've been that high.


Hi Caesar,

I think you are doing everything right, step by step. I got interested in permaculture and fruit breeding both out of curiosity and idealism, but I do have another education, job and passion which is my ‘first love’.
On the other hand I always fantasized about my ‘plant hobby’ to someday be able to generate some money or income, but after eight years of spending a lot of time and thoughts on it I realize that that is very hard to do ‘on the side’ . I am afraid there is not a lot of ‘passive income’ to generate from farm work and fruit breeding is by now an equally complex art, so adjusted to market demands it has become not only an enormous long shot, but in order to develop new varieties into a licensed or patented product that generates money ‘passively’ you have to work full time at it. So the ‘passive’ part is very relative.

Nonetheless some permaculture farms that are well planned and thought through have flourished and taken off also commercially. These are truly admirable enterprises and have given a better idea on how to make such a thing work. All of them take it as seriously hard work and research their context and market extensively, start small and scale things up later.
You might want to check out the videos of this guy:
https://youtu.be/p__7st7Q6ic

Good luck!

I've saved a few videos of his that seem particularly promising, but I gotta take time to see all of it. Good information, thanks for the link.


*


Thank you all for the advice and the encouragement. You've all been a greater help than you know, and despite the time elapsed, I hope this is not the end of this thread. Perhaps if I can get that job soon, I'll be that much closer to starting the farm. Slowly for sure, but I'll be posting my progress as it comes. Once again, thanks.  :)
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Caesar on August 20, 2018, 08:25:45 PM
I've already determined everything I'm going to grow and sell, down to the letter. I had a very expansive list as a starting point, and eventually whittled down the candidates to four tiers (each, on two separate lists: small & annuals, and trees): Tier 1 has the bread and butter, that I know will sell well because they have a strong market here and are always in demand. Tier 2 has crops with a strong enough local market, but not as strong as tier 1, so I'll be planting less of them. Tier 3 has crops with a weak local market: strong enough to confidently grow them in the knowledge they will be bought, but not so in demand to warrant anything over a small planting. Tier 3 with the trees means most exotics: trees that I'll grow singly (or in very small groups) for my own personal consumption, and to test the waters in the local market (there are exotic trees in the upper tiers, but they're mainly well-known species that I'm reasonably confident will sell well, from what I've seen). Tier 4 with the trees are extra species and poorly-known exotics, that will only get a spot in my land if I can afford to give them space (they're all optional). Tier 4 with the small crops are also exotic and poorly-known crops, that I'll be growing in small quantities for myself (and to test the waters at market) in my own personal plot.

I found the plans I was working on prior to the hurricane, hashing out companion planting guilds and crop rotation schemes for the small and annual crops. I was already far along back then, having collected and processed most of the information. I've been working on it again for the past few days, and have finally decided on the Plant Guilds I will be trialling on the farm (now all I need is the farm...   ::)). I've also been drawing up some of the planting schemes themselves, but I won't be posting those pictures, my drawings are terrible.

The next step (after I finish drawing the schemes) would be to figure out the proper spacing for all the plants involved, but I'm not sure how to hash that out when each species has a different distance. After that comes the final step: figuring out the monthly and yearly planting calendar... It's all well and good to have a pretty picture in your head of all the mature plants growing together, but the practical reality will probably be a bit different, especially when taking the seasons into account.

This is all highly experimental, based on information I've found online and other people's experiences. I've evaluated all of it to the best of my abilities, and have given special attention to well-sourced information, but there's no guarantee it'll work. This is merely what I intend to trial when I start planting on the farm. Naturally, whatever works shall remain in use and be improved upon over time with further trials; whatever fails shall be dropped from my methods. Trial and error is pretty much the only way to go with these topics.

As previously stated, I divided everything up into tiers when doing my research. So here are the small crop tiers of economic importance in my neck of the woods:

Tier 1:
Plantain
Yams (Dioscorea)
Pigeon Peas
Calabaza (the local Squash, C. moschata)
Sweet Peppers (local Ají types and others, like Banana and Bell Peppers)
Tomatoes
Lettuce (the local favorite is Black-seeded Simpson)
Cilantro
Culantro (Eryngium foetidum)

Tier 2:
Sweet Potatoes
Cocoyams [Yautía (Xanthosoma spp.) and Malanga (Taro, Colocasia esculenta)]
Chayote (Sechium edule)
Sweet Corn
Alliums (Onion, Garlic, etc.)
Broccoli
Cabbage
Potato (admittedly this one's experimental... It depends if my tropical breeding program works out)

Tier 3:
Papaya
Apio Criollo (Arracacha)
Asparagus
Carrots
Eggplant
Okra
Beans (White Beans and Bush Green Beans, mostly)
Peas
Garbanzos
Peanuts
Other Legumes (other Phaseolus, Vigna, Vicia)
Other Brassicas (mostly Cauliflower, Brussels Sprouts and Kale)
Spinach
Other Cucurbits (Cucumber, Melon, Watermelon, other Squash types)
Parsley
Beets
Radishes

Also herbs and flowers, mostly grown in belts near the main crop lines.

I'll also be trialling some other species in my personal patch, like the Hodgsonia, Telfairia, Groundnuts (Apios Americana), Tuberous Vetch, Potato Mint, etc.


That being my selection, I sought out as much information on companion planting as I could. I made extensive use of Wikipedia's table, but focused more on the combinations that had reference links to them, which I could review for credibility; I ran separate searches for them as well, and also for the source-less combinations. I took special note of what NOT to plant together, and underlined those combinations that were especially promising. When my own table was finished... I paused the project until last week. Now I reviewed the information again and started building the guilds, mostly focusing on the underlined combos, but also reviewing the rest for good measure. I built the guilds around the most important crops, but the less important ones also had a part to play, often being good companions. When the guilds had few components, I tried to think up a good pattern for the planting scheme, mostly giving them equal space. If a guild had more components, I first arranged the core components as previously described, and then left the remainder to the periphery of the growing bed (if I thought it appropriate for a given species).

These are the guilds I intend to trial, which I've tiered according to their dominant crops, which aren't always the most important ones in the guild; they'll be rotated according to standard crop rotation practices. The further down you go, the more likely you'll see an uncommon crop being used in the guild:

Tier 1:

1 - Plantain + Cocoyams + Sweet Potatoes + Periphery: Okra

2 - Yams + Papaya + Bush Beans

3 - Lettuce + Cilantro + Broccoli + Periphery: Culantro + Onions + Beets + Radishes

4 - Tomato + Peppers + Garlic + Carrots + Basil

4.5 - Other companions to trial in guild 4: Marigold, Borage and Nettles

5 - Squash + Corn + Beans + Periphery: Turnips + Nasturtium


Tier 2:

6 - Chayote + Arracacha + Peppers + Peanuts

7 - Potato + Brassicas + Peas + Alliums + Periphery: Chamomile + Marigolds


Tier 3:

8 - Asparagus + Tomato + Parsley + Basil

9 - Eggplant + Garbanzo + Radishes + Tarragon + Marigold + Lemongrass (repels cutworms)

10 - Spinach + Cauliflower + Peas

11 - Cucumber + Garlic + Kohlrabi + Celery + Bush Beans + Radishes + Amaranth


The guild at the periphery of the major plots (as opposed to the periphery of each growing bed) is the following: Pigeon Peas + Cassava in the inner circle, Lemongrass in the middle circle, and Peppermint (a low-level rodent deterrent) in the outer circle.

Some plants to use everywhere due to different traits that make them excellent companions for a broad range of crops: Lovage, Borage, Tarragon, Oregano, Yarrow, Marigold


The companion belts are the following:

Herb Belt (good for tomatoes and other crops; a broad choice of herbs that all play well together and which you can choose from according to the needs of the area)): Oregano, Marjoram, Thyme, Rosemary, Sage, Lavander, Chamomile, Yarrow, Nettle

Flower Belt: Sunflower, Marigold, California Poppy, Lupines, Dianthus, Alyssum, Lacy Phacelia


Good companions to fruiting trees: Southernwood, Borage, Comfrey, Nasturtium



That's as far as I got with the annual crops so far. Still a lot to do, to trial, to consider and evaluate. My only problem is, I don't have the land to shift this into a practical evaluation immediately. It's gonna stay theoretical until I can get some space.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: pineislander on August 21, 2018, 08:07:38 AM
Caesar figuring out companion plantings and making them work is probably one of the hardest exercises you can do. It will probably take years to become good at it along with some problems and even failures. I've been trying out some and there are almost always things to learn about how they cooperate, proper spacing, timing of planting/harvesting, and the difficulty of working in a less concentrated crop scenario of polyculture compared to a monoculture. There's lots to learn and share which might benefit others.

Since most here are involved in trees I'll show an example of what looks like a successful example of such a guild of annual plants cooperating with a new planting of mango trees. The scene is a 130 ft (40 meters)long raised bed of Mahachanok mango trees interplanted with a mix of sweet potato and ordinary peanuts. The beds are native sand topped with 4"(10 cm) compost, peanuts were planted at 18" (45 cm)spacing directly on top of the compost then covered with mulch. Sweet potato cuttings were inserted into the mulch at 24" (60 cm)spacing between peanuts. Centered between each mango tree are banana trees.

(https://s22.postimg.cc/c9gv7kqpp/DSC01412.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/c9gv7kqpp/)

(https://s22.postimg.cc/wgub0414d/DSC01413.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/wgub0414d/)

(https://s22.postimg.cc/sa9gkuee5/DSC01414.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/sa9gkuee5/)

(https://s22.postimg.cc/6cczr1jy5/intercrop.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6cczr1jy5/)

It's interesting what what you find for example I tried 3 different sweet potato varieties with different vine habits and the short vining 'bush' type did best but who knows if just a different spacing is needed? It'll also be interesting to find out how the harvest goes. Commercially the vines are stripped & a plow is run down a row of sweet potatoes to lift them, with peanut mixed in there will be complications at harvest. You can see in the adjacent bed i tried other combinations with papaya, yuca/cassava, and several other crops.

So, short word is that this sort of work could be a lifetime experience good thing you are young!
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Caesar on August 23, 2018, 01:15:36 PM
You ought to dedicate a whole thread to your land, it really looks great! You've been able to do so much in the sandy Florida soil.

I'm surprised you were able to combine sweet potatoes with peanuts. Since both are groundcovers, I expected them to compete for space, which is why I didn't combine them in any of my plans. Trial and error indeed, even the successes are surprising.

And of trial and error, I think that's all we can do here. We're breaking new ground every time we try a polyculture in a new place, so instead of reading books to learn about what works (of which there are few), we'll have to contribute to them instead for others to learn. I want to record everything I try, from successes to failures and half-successes. That was a major draw to me, of Permaculture: so few trials available, so I'd like to fill in some of those blanks myself.

Is manual labor (personal or otherwise) a viable alternative to machines for digging up the sweet potatoes in a smaller commercial operation? I wouldn't want to sacrifice crop diversity for my comfort, though I like to reduce workload wherever possible.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: SeaWalnut on May 15, 2019, 07:12:18 AM
After manny plans and crazy ideas i started beekekping and its the nicest thing.Now instead of food crops i plant flowers for the bees .Phacelia tanacetifolia can make a ton of nectar per hectare wich its a lot more expensive than corn and can be planted 2 times a year.You dont even need to have a big land.With aquacoulture there is a high risk that you could loose everything over night.Chickens,goats ,pigs and otther animals i dont like to farm because its a dirty job ,big responsability,time consuming and i dont like to kill animals.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: nattyfroootz on May 15, 2019, 10:45:31 AM
Yee haw, Phacelia tanacetifolia is a great plant! Smells amazing and has purple pollen as well.

Stoked to hear you using that rad California Native dryland adapted species.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Caesar on May 22, 2019, 11:26:22 AM
I'm glad to hear all these good things about Lacy Phacelia. It was on my list of companion plants, and I had intended to include it in the flower strips between crop beds.

I might include some aquaponic systems on the farm for the short term, but in the long term, I think I'd keep aquaculture simple, maybe some crayfish or acociles in the aquatic crop ponds; nothing too fancy, just for subsistence rather than production.

Animals are a huge responsibility, and I'm in no rush to deal with them, but they do have their benefits, and the work can be minimized if you work them into the farm according to available resources and niches. Again, I'd keep them more for subsistence, with the crops being the main productive force of the farm.



I got myself some Mesquite seeds, Prosopis alba. I already had the Breadfruit and the Air Potatoes, now I need the Maya Nut, the Tahitian Chestnut, and the Sago Palm, and I'll have a strong collection of some of the most productive starchy staples in the world. For fat, Avocado, Macadamia and other tropical nuts & oilfruit. For vegetable protein, mainly Chachafruto and annual pulse crops. With a good system in place, I could theoretically keep myself fed without a supermarket... Not that I'd stop going, but it's good to have food security.

* https://permaculturenews.org/2012/02/25/perennial-staple-crops-of-the-world/

* https://permaculturenews.org/2013/05/01/staple-fruits-of-the-world/
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: SeaWalnut on May 22, 2019, 03:34:38 PM
African catfish( clarias) its a really nice one with little demands on oxigen and space.I have a small basin in wich i want to grow rainbow,brook and brown trouts.Rainbows for sure but brook and browns its so so,might get too hot in my area.A few years ago i wanted to make the pond with saltwater and to grow a pair of Mahi mahi but id need a round basin for those because they like to swim a lot .I toght to breed tropical lobsters( Panulirus ornatus),slipper lobsters and blue crabs but most of these are really big canibals,especially the crabs.I.hoped to lower the canibalistic behaviour by making them all molt at same time and i discovered a substance that does that guaranteed.Because id grow quite low numbers of crustaceans i would have sold them after they have molted as soft shell wich are more expensive than hard shells.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: pineislander on May 23, 2019, 07:31:10 AM
You might look into 'electric blue lobster crayfish' culture. Not for edible but each individual brings in about $25 USD for the aquarium trade.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: Caesar on June 05, 2019, 11:16:45 PM
I think I might get in trouble if I sold the lobsters for aquaria instead of eating them myself (¿unless I ship them overseas perhaps?). I've seen the little Cambarellus types in pet stores here, but the big ones (like the redclaws I had wanted from the start) are considered as invasive species. Indeed, I think there's a feral population of redclaws on the north side. We have freshwater crabs here that breed little crablets in full freshwater, but they need land, and they don't get along well. Folks eat them but they prefer the coastal land crabs 'cause they grow bigger and are easier to find. Breeding saltwater crustaceans seems problematic, with all the larval stages they have to go through.

Most of the info on Clarias talks of rearing them on pellet-based food. They're intriguing enough, especially with their low demands, but we can go lower! What kind of crop residue could they feed on, to eliminate outside input? That'd be an ideally raised permaculture fish!
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: SeaWalnut on June 05, 2019, 11:50:09 PM
Most famous crab in the world i think its the blue Maryland crab,the savory swimmer wich needs a salinity comparable to bottled drinking water and eats any type of garbage and debris like grass or anything you would rather have composted on the farm.They have a short larval stage with less demands compared to true lobsters wich most of them have never been bred by humans and in farms they are just fattening wild caught juveniles.Thing with these crabs its that they need a lot of space because they are canibals or to be kept each crab in a small cage like they do in China with bigger crabs like mud crabs.Coconut crabs are nice land crabs but their endangered badly and its a shame to eat one.
Title: Re: How to start a farm? (Commercializing Permaculture... ?)
Post by: SeaWalnut on June 06, 2019, 12:07:14 AM
First of all you need to know how much water you have and whats the temperature it gets because on high temp the oxygen leaves the water but that would be no problem for a fish like Clarias wich can breathe air.Then if you dont have a constant flow of water like a stream or something,you can recycle and filter your water verry good by using plants that fed on fish waste similar to hydroponics just in this care you clwan the water of Nitrates,ammonia,phosphates.
To feed the fish you would need pellets in case you want to keep high density.Protein based plants like soy or otther legumes can be used to make verry cheap pellets but you have to know the aminoacids profile of each fish food( somme are carnivorous otther vegetarian).
To make the pellets float you would need an extruder that verry expensive machine but i know a trick to make them float for cheap by incorporating small bits of corn into the paste you use for pellets and then place them.in a microwave so that those small bits of corn expand and assure buoyancy.
Rainbow trout its #1 aquacultured fish if you can grow that .It grows to 300 grains in the first year and up to 28 C temp of the water its fine.Can grow 200 kilos of live rainbow trouts in just one ton of water but the water needs to be pristine and high in oxigen.Also you can buy fertilised trout eggs by post and grow them .
At night you can install somme LED lamps close to the water surface that will atract insects and watch the trouts jumping and catch them in the air.