Author Topic: Mangos for mild climate  (Read 15138 times)

mbmango

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Mangos for mild climate
« on: May 14, 2014, 05:33:55 AM »
I've been out of the hunt for a bit, but we're almost done rebuilding our house and it is almost time to get back to the garden.

Space is limited but I'm hoping to put in 7 trees at ~8' spacing.  We're less than 2 miles from the beach, but we're at the very bottom of an east facing slope, so we get several days of frost every year, although I haven't checked the actual temps for those days yet.  Stone fruits do really well in the neighborhood.  The marine layer sends us fog regularly, and it isn't often when it will break 80F like right now.  I've tried a Manila, and PIN Edward and Carrie.  Edward and Carrie didn't make it past their first winter.  The Manila is 5 yrs old now, but the winter of '12 killed the main trunk, so now it's just a tuning fork but it's still trying to carry fruit.   I'm not sure if it'll ever be able to heal over the exposed stump in the center, so thinking of digging it out and replanting another.  I also lost a young Hass avocado that winter, but I still have a Gold Nugget mandarin, Calamondin, White Indian guava, and big box Ice Cream banana.  I also have a few potted random mango seedlings about 3 yrs old that don't get any special handling, more for container growing practice, and maybe grafting practice at some point.

What mango varieties might I have the best chances with?  I'm concerned that even if I could get fruit, would they even taste good enough given the lack of heat.  We did put in a lot more pavement in the yard this time, so hopefully that helps with getting more heat.  And this time, I plan on putting up a temporary greenhouse, at least during the first few winters, to jumpstart them, if I can avoid DW's wrath.  I'm finalizing an order of some of Tim Thompson's mangos which seem hopeful.  Current picks are Tequila Sunrise, Gold Coast, PineApple, and Starburst.  The volume pricing is only a little bit more, so anyone interested in joining this order, or is there an open group order still around?

Also, any avocado recommendation?  I was going to try a Mexicola, but debating on whether to give it up for another mango chance.

Thanks,
Gerald

wslau

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2014, 12:07:48 PM »
I think trying out Tim Thompson's mangos is a great idea.  There is limited data on these varieties in different regions in Southern California. I'm interested in hearing people's responses in the years to come.

In general, I have found Glenn mangos to be the least finicky to maintain in SoCal..it has relatively good cold hardiness, but should be protected under frost advisories.
However, you live in a coastal region (I used to work near MB) with cooler weather/overcast mornings...I recall reading that Thomson mango (developed by Paul Thomson) does really good in coastal environments.  However, you will probably have to trek to the San Diego area to find a "certified" Thomson.

Good luck!
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 04:33:30 PM by wslau »
Warren

nullzero

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2014, 12:24:36 PM »
mbmango,

I use to live in MB for a number of years. I am very familiar with the climate. Depending which side of PCH you are will make a big difference. The marine layer burns off much quicker on the east side of PCH, also if your on a hill or depression will make a difference.

Do I think mangoes are worth it? I don't believe they are in my opinion. You should consider some of these trees they should thrive if you get a lot of marine layer; Lucuma, Tamarillo, Narajilla, etc. You can try Tim Thompson mangoes out, I have not seen actual results with his selections. I would consider trying a manila out again, I think its your best shot for tasty fruit. Just make sure to establish the tree a few months prior to winter.

I would consider an avocado for sure, Holiday should be a good choice.
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zands

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2014, 01:03:01 PM »
mbmango,

I use to live in MB for a number of years. I am very familiar with the climate. Depending which side of PCH you are will make a big difference. The marine layer burns off much quicker on the east side of PCH, also if your on a hill or depression will make a difference.

Do I think mangoes are worth it? I don't believe they are in my opinion. You should consider some of these trees they should thrive if you get a lot of marine layer; Lucuma, Tamarillo, Narajilla, etc. You can try Tim Thompson mangoes out, I have not seen actual results with his selections. I would consider trying a manila out again, I think its your best shot for tasty fruit. Just make sure to establish the tree a few months prior to winter.

I would consider an avocado for sure, Holiday should be a good choice.

Mangoes are not worth it!!!????

@mbmango_If space is limited then why not put in only 3-4 mango trees that will span-extend your mango eating season? Give them maximum nutrition the way Patrick here does with foliar sprays. You can do a lot with four trees. Maybe you keep a 5th one in a pot. You cultivate it in a container (graduating to larger ones etc) and keep it for reserve-back up in case one mango tree fails or produces fruit you don't like.

Try to buy one tree in 7gallon or larger so you can get fruit sooner from it

Two mangoes I would consider are Carrie if you like a piney taste and Nam Doc Mai which is the most common SE Asian mango grown in America. The Philippine mango that LaVerne nursery produces in California are SE ASian too.They have more of a straight sweet taste while the Indian origin mangoes (which includes most Florida ones like Haden, Edward) etc have more complex taste with tart undertones etc 

Steve in Los Osos

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2014, 01:16:21 PM »
I have the typical coastal issues (the bay is just two short blocks away) and lots of summer fog. On average (not this week!!!) I am probably quite a bit cooler than MB.

I have a LaVerne Manila mango which has flowered profusely for the last two years. Last year it held some very small mangoes which were tasty. I'm hoping for better results this year.

That said, the tree is growing in a high tunnel with the south end open, along with dragon fruit and passion fruit. This adds some heat (right now it's 113F in there, but that is NOT normal) and I think the overhead, even though just greenhouse poly, helps with the cold. This past winter we had some brutally cold nights in the low 30's, water in hoses freezing, etc. The tree was untouched.

BUT, here at least the Manila is an anthracnose magnet. I spray monthly with copper and sometimes actually use a sponge on the leaves that are bad. Sooty molds also seem to like the leaves. So it's not a pretty sight on the whole.

I have a small Glenn in an actual enclosed greenhouse which I'm trying to train as an espalier. It doesn't seem to have the disease issues (yet).

nullzero

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2014, 01:41:26 PM »
mbmango,

I use to live in MB for a number of years. I am very familiar with the climate. Depending which side of PCH you are will make a big difference. The marine layer burns off much quicker on the east side of PCH, also if your on a hill or depression will make a difference.

Do I think mangoes are worth it? I don't believe they are in my opinion. You should consider some of these trees they should thrive if you get a lot of marine layer; Lucuma, Tamarillo, Narajilla, etc. You can try Tim Thompson mangoes out, I have not seen actual results with his selections. I would consider trying a manila out again, I think its your best shot for tasty fruit. Just make sure to establish the tree a few months prior to winter.

I would consider an avocado for sure, Holiday should be a good choice.

Mangoes are not worth it!!!????

@mbmango_If space is limited then why not put in only 3-4 mango trees that will span-extend your mango eating season? Give them maximum nutrition the way Patrick here does with foliar sprays. You can do a lot with four trees. Maybe you keep a 5th one in a pot. You cultivate it in a container (graduating to larger ones etc) and keep it for reserve-back up in case one mango tree fails or produces fruit you don't like.

Try to buy one tree in 7gallon or larger so you can get fruit sooner from it

Two mangoes I would consider are Carrie if you like a piney taste and Nam Doc Mai which is the most common SE Asian mango grown in America. The Philippine mango that LaVerne nursery produces in California are SE ASian too.They have more of a straight sweet taste while the Indian origin mangoes (which includes most Florida ones like Haden, Edward) etc have more complex taste with tart undertones etc

Mangoes not worth it in Manhattan Beach (was what I was intending to say), I believe mangoes are worth it if in a better suited climate with more space. However, land is extremely expensive and space is a premium in MB. I don't know if planting a mango would be the best use of space.

I got 8 mango trees in FL, so they are really worth it :). However the marine layer belt of CA is margin at best for growing productive tasty mangoes. I would opt for container mango growing and place near a warm south facing area.

I forgot to mention Cherimoya, this may be one of the better choices besides the avocado.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 01:47:43 PM by nullzero »
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mangomaniac2

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2014, 01:56:53 PM »
You do not get enough warm temps to grow a sweet mango. Fruits tend to be sweeter with higher temps. If you are inclined to grow mango I recommend the most disease free mango variety due to your cooler summer temps. Glenn seems to be good, but if you want a tastier larger mango I would recommend Ugly Betty.  Ugly Betty has been a fast grower and the new growth is thick so should have good cold tolerance. Extremely disease resistant it seems. So far out of my 40 mango trees (over 30 varieties) my single Ugly Betty is easiest to keep green, never has any black spots on the leaves, and seems to always be growing.

mbmango

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2014, 06:20:02 PM »
Thanks everyone so far!

@nullzero and maniac2, that is sobering.  I will try with just Tim's recommendations then since he seems optimistic that they should be able to flavor up.  Thanks for the Holiday avo rec.  I will definitely look for that.  We are in a small depression, east of PCH, right next to Polliwog Park which is the lowest point on the east side of the city, which is likely why we see frozen grass and windshields at least a few times each year.

@zands - Tim's choices, (the 3 except for the Pineapple), besides being currently available, happen to also give an extended season, so crossing fingers.  The Pineapple, I just want to try for the taste.

He did not recommend Glenn for the climate, nor even Manila, but I may try the Manila in the front yard for as close to a stealth mango as I can easily find.  I was thinking of NDM alongside also.  I do love them SE types (grocery Ataulfos are so yummy), not necessarily more than Indian types, but that's partly because I haven't really had the opportunity to try out all the other good stuff I only read about.

I hope this will be all worth it.  The value is all relative, but I don't really have any other fruits I'd prefer to try, that would at least preclude the space for the mangos.  Used to have an Owari Satsuma, but it wasn't good enough to keep.  If I could find a Sumo orange, I'd grow one of those in a heartbeat.  If I could find kiwis like the Zespri gold, I'd make space for those too.  I haven't yet tasted a Cherimoya that I liked, even though my dad is trying to grow several of those from seedlings.  Asian pears are yummy, but seem troublesome to grow.  Am trying pineapples, although a damn subcontractor jacked my largest potted plant that was carrying a fruit.  Would like a chestnut tree, but son is allergic to nuts.  I might resolve myself to just citrus, or stone fruits (which I've never really explored), but I'm going to give this a shot at least.

MangoFang

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2014, 06:57:08 PM »
Gerald - welcome to the wonderful world of.....

 :o

I agree with trying the Tim Thompson selections as being your best bet,
even though as couple people said, they are truly untested by anyone
on this forum.  That being said, he did develop them out in Camarillo which I think gets a lot
of marine layer stuff. too, and not a lot of heat.  You should call or email him and discuss your
situation - he may have some ideas.

I would also STRONGLY consider getting frost cloth to help on those cold nights - at least until the plants get at least 3-4 years old and develop some natural protection. I think it also important to buy 2-3
thermometers you can place outside near your trees and check on just how cold your individual micro-climate is. Often, it is not that same as the weather forecaster talks about...

Keep us posted....

Gary

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2014, 02:03:09 AM »
Even though I don't live anywhere near here, I would say that if given the opportunity to grow cherimoya, do so. If nullzero is correct and mangoes are not a good investment in your land, then choose a good avocado or cherimoya (or both  ;)) But by all means, if your favorite fruit are are mangoes, still choose avocado (I'm kidding ;D). I'm just saying that mangoes are actually one of the easiest things to grow where I live (Phoenix), while avocados is on par with jakfruit for survival to fruit, possibly (near impossible). Cherimoya, on the other hand, grows well, but NEVER FRUITS (impossible :'()! I would say it's up to you, but at least try a cherimoya and tell us what you think.

mbmango

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2014, 05:05:53 AM »
Here's the back/south and side/west yards.

The trees don't seem too bad for not being manually watered for almost a year.  The guava in sw corner will be moving to the north of the side yard to make room.  Some of the side planter will be taken by a future BBQ, but the planter is only 18" wide, so I'll probably try some Hawaiian papayas in the remaining space.

Potted seedlings trying to fruit


and what's left of the manila


Any chance that if I could cleanly remove the stumpy part that the tree would heal over the wound?


The front/north yard


Over the week, picked up a 15g Durling Holiday avocado from the local Armstrong, which will be going in the SE corner next to the mandarin.  Looked overwatered and I didn't notice a big gash near the top, but seems recoverable.  Also picked up small Parfianka, Goji, and Li jujube, destined for containers.

Had to put in minimal front yard landscaping to satisfy the inspectors, but have to also do a little research on roses.  We plan to border the entire front with a thorny hedge, but not so opaque, to discourage any casual fruit pickers.  The landscaper had popped in some iceberg roses, but they don't seem intimidating at all.

Looking for thermometers and wanted to get something that logs periodically.  I had picked up a TI SensorTag to play with, but I don't think I'll have time to deal with writing firmware.  Also thought about DIY with some 1-wire sensors to a Spark Core (https://www.spark.io/), but it'd probably cost the same overall, plus take time again.  Anyone using an AcuLink internet gateway (http://www.acurite.com/aculink)?  I'd get just the gateway and 3 temp sensors since I could just lookup wind, pressure, etc from other local stations.  It logs to their site, and also to weatherunderground, and you just view it via a phone app or the WU site.  I'd use a sensor in the front, back, and the future tunnel (hopefully).

nullzero

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2014, 11:40:19 AM »
Nice on the 15 gal Holiday, looks like you have a mostly clean slate. Btw, the jujube trees are usually smaller upright trees. You can get away with keeping them under 8ft with annual pruning.

Planting the mangoes near that large back wall is what I would do. The extra heat retained in the wall will help the mangoes.
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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2014, 04:34:08 PM »
Yes, i have the Acurite 5 in 1 sensor with the internet gateway and it has been a great purchase.  Cheap and works really well and very easy to set up.  I highly recommend getting one.  I have noticed that the low temp where i live is about 4 degrees colder than the reported temp at the nearest airport so it lets me know that i have to protect my mango trees from the cold.  One night i failed to cover up the trees and the temp dropped to 34 at my house but the trees did not suffer any damage.

mbmango

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2014, 05:38:21 AM »
Placed my order with Tim 2 weeks ago, so just waiting until Sep/Oct for an early x-mas.  At least I'll have a fair amount of time to prepare.

Just received the Acurite gateway with 3 tower sensors, since there was a Memorial Day sale.  I'm just testing it indoors for now since we're still in an apt, and we don't have net access at the house yet.  The sensors are relatively consistent within a degree of each other so far.  Had to set a -1 calibration on one of them.  I don't have a reference thermometer though, so hopefully they are close enough to reality.  Only 1 of them was reporting consistently when they were all placed in the fridge, so I'm hoping I don't have reception issues later.  Too bad it won't out-of-the-box report all the sensors to wunderground, but the Acurite site is workable at least, and still better than the iOS app.

Picked up some CuPro 5000 from domyownpestcontrol.com to try diy MicroKote since I'm a lazy repotter.  Going to try pumice instead of perlite in my mix since it's a little cheaper and seems more durable.

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2014, 06:47:20 PM »
Been busy moving into the new house.  Just spoke with Tim and I won't be taking my order till May 1 2015.  The trees wouldn't be sized enough for this year, and I'd have to worry more about the winter protection, so they'll be in better hands with him till the next season.  Also got the chance to find out about some of his other fruits he's working on, so I can look forward to other opportunities later.

Did a bunch of pots with the DIY MicroKote.  Not sure if I should've used a better paint, but it doesn't adhere terribly well to the injection molded pots (PE?).  Enough to stay put before I fill them, but it does flake off easier than I'd want.  I'll probably still be able to reuse them with only minor touch up for big flakes.  I wasn't sure of coverage thickness, but I decided to put it only pretty light.  Will see how it goes when I repot the smaller ones next year.  I used about half the copper and 1 gal of paint and used up not even a third of the gallon on 22 x 1g, 13 x 3.4g, 20 x 5g, 2 x 15g, 7 x 20", 6 x half barrel, 1 x 20g, and 1 x 40g pots, so it's going a long way.

Tried to dig up the guava, but it's looking to be more work than I expected.  I'm just going to get a new guava and kill this one.  Already put in the replacement manila mango, but I don't think I'll dig out the existing one just yet.  Sampled some dropped fruit and it was still yummy.  Might as well let that one keep going until the new trees need the space.  I didn't realize the true trunk damage until recently though.  Apparently earwigs have made a huge nest right under the bark.  The trunk is at least 2/3's girdled, yet the tree continues to hold several small fruit and is still pushing new growth.  I'm waffling on whether I'm going to mulch this bed at all now since I don't want to have future earwig problems.

Got papaya seeds from U of Hawaii, but not yet sure where to fit them in the garden yet.  Will probably intercrop them in between the future mango sites.

Ordered some stuff from Florida Hill and Wellspring - emerald and jewel blueberries; sugarloaf, white gold, elite gold pineapples; mulberry, kiowa blackberry, purple possum passion fruit, allspice, tea, katuk, and ylang ylang.

Picked up some citrus, to stay potted - pixie, moro, cara cara, and meyer.  Still looking for a kishu, and that will probably be it.

Pomegranates have space in the suboptimal front yard but hoepfully enough to get something - parfianka, angel red, and eversweet.  The parfianka had immature fruit on it already, but it was so yummy already when I removed it.

Tried my first fresh jackfruit - yummy!  I planted some of the seeds just for kicks.  I don't think I'll ever be able to fit it anywhere.

Another experiment is that I'm going to try growing gold kiwi seedlings all along the brick walls.  Might as well cover up the walls and maybe one day something will come out of it, or not.

Also tried some lychees that were just too good.  Now I must find one of these, but I'm not sure what variety to get since it wasn't labeled at the grocery.

Also still looking for a good raspberry variety for this area.  Seems like Baba would be good, if I could find it.

nullzero

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2014, 07:00:19 PM »
Mbmango,

There is a Jackfruit tree that is producing and holding fruit, not taking a ton of space in Hermosa Beach on 8th street between Ardmore and PCH. I suggest you walk by it and take a look. I have not talked to the owners/occupants yet, I have seen them outside a few times during the summer weekends.

Seedlings from this tree should be a good selection to produce fruit in your location. You have quite a collection you recently picked up, I may have an extra Luc's Garcinia seedling if you want to stop by Hermosa sometime.
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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2014, 03:07:56 PM »
I haven't heard any convincing evidence that one mango variety is more cold-hardy than another.   

I would simply go with compact ones,already with below-knee-level branching and persistent pruning for bushiness, and have your floating-row-cover material handy to cover it with when necessary.   

Spraying each flush of new growth with Pro-Tekt or some other Potassium Silicate product, may also produce a more cold-hardy plant [I don't think that this has yet been proven with mangoes.].
Har

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2014, 06:12:02 PM »
I also think there will be little variation in cold hardiness amongst mangoes.Presumably SE Asian poly varieties from closer to the equator will be less cold hardy than the classic sub tropical typical varieties grown.KP grows and fruits pretty well around Sydney in Australia and does fine at 10 latitude and into New Guinea as well.It therefore spans well over 2000 miles of latitude.

simon_grow

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2014, 06:37:51 PM »
I would go with a Lemon Zest mango because I have tasted the excellent quality of this fruit when it is grown in Florida and California and they taste amazing. This variety has very high brix, I can't remember exactly but I think it was around 24-26% brix. So, because you don't get much heat to sweeten up mangos, it may be wise to start with a variety that is genetically predispositioned to be sweeter. The vigorous growth habit of the LZ will also be beneficial to mango growing in SoCal where our trees don't grow as fast as in Florida. The high vigor of the LZ will also be beneficial if a hard frost hits, considering it doesn't kill your tree. Good luck on your new yard and please keep us updated!
 
Simon

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2014, 12:49:36 AM »
I also think the Lemon Zest would be a good mango selection. As for the Kiowa Blackberry be carefully with it. They are very vigorous and will send out many many runners. It will try to spread over your whole yard. The fruit is huge, taste is just ok but it is early, before my Triple Crown and Outchita.

For raspberry I highly suggest Caroline.

Good luck,
Bill

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2014, 03:37:15 PM »
Will have to drive by soon to take a look!  And thanks for your generosity!  I've never tasted any of the Garcinias, but it seems to have much hype from what little I've read so far.  I may take you up on that just out of curiosity.

Mbmango,

There is a Jackfruit tree that is producing and holding fruit, not taking a ton of space in Hermosa Beach on 8th street between Ardmore and PCH. I suggest you walk by it and take a look. I have not talked to the owners/occupants yet, I have seen them outside a few times during the summer weekends.

Seedlings from this tree should be a good selection to produce fruit in your location. You have quite a collection you recently picked up, I may have an extra Luc's Garcinia seedling if you want to stop by Hermosa sometime.

mbmango

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2014, 04:28:10 PM »
I probably would have to agree [wag] on a limited range of hardiness across mangos that we care about.  Getting acceptable growth/quality/production in my heat-limited climate is my primary concern.  I'm pretty sure I can keep most alive with more effort than my prior attempts, but I don't want to slave over them or just keep them surviving only.  I'm hoping some of Tim's mangos will be a good baseline.  He did not recommend them all for my climate, but due to volume pricing I just got them all besides the kilo green.  I'm still willing to try other varieties, and Simon is making a good case for the LZ.

I'm not familiar with blackberries (I actually don't like them but the kids love them), so watching it in a pot before I put it anywhere.  And thanks for the raspberry pointer.  I read somewhere that they will do fine on the north side, almost full shade, in our area, so hopeful on that.

ClayMango

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2014, 04:56:08 PM »
How on Earth is it that  literally  everyone on this forum has zero feedback on these Tim Thompson Southern Ca bred mangos....yet we have have about every single Fl mango grown here ready for discussion....


blows my  mind
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 06:30:19 PM by ClayMango »
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simon_grow

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2014, 06:15:55 PM »
I'm very eager to try out Tims mango varieties but I will wait until I hear first hand accounts regarding the fruit quality before I purchase a tree.
Simon

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Re: Mangos for mild climate
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2014, 06:31:47 PM »
I would love to see some of his best on the table during the mango testings to see how they stack with the rest
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