Double stone grafting for Mango

[JF]

DSG approach graft took to reinforce turpy rootstock

I just put one for my sunrise, wondering how close should I get the plant to rootstock (turpie)? mine was like 6" away, am thinking about moving it closer. I plan on doing this for my peach cobbler as well. Rest all my plants are on manila or ataulfo.

I put mine 2-3" from the trunk. Try not to disturb the roots they usually fuse in two week at this time of the year

[simon_grow]

Looks good guys, it takes me a lot longer to get callousing when I innarch greenwood to hardened brownwood. Instead of nursing the existing bad rootstock, I have started seedlings next to my Turpentine trees and grafted them with the variety I want. I thought about nurse grafting but the possibility of the Turpentine rootstock influences still exist and there may be delayed rejection of approach grafted tree.

Simon

[merce3]

Here's a pic of the one I have that's pushing


This was actually on green rootstock... still curious if both rootstocks took.

[simon_grow]

How long after you grafted did it take to push? Generally, it takes 2-3 weeks when I perform a DSG before the scion pushes but it depends on how mature the scion was, the temperature and the vigor of the rootstock. Congratulations and please keep us updated. Remember to plant into the ground as soon as possible but make sure the current flush has fully hardened. If your going to keep it in a pot, make sure you have a fast draining soil or soilless mix.

Simon

[merce3]

How long after you grafted did it take to push? Generally, it takes 2-3 weeks when I perform a DSG before the scion pushes but it depends on how mature the scion was, the temperature and the vigor of the rootstock. Congratulations and please keep us updated. Remember to plant into the ground as soon as possible but make sure the current flush has fully hardened. If your going to keep it in a pot, make sure you have a fast draining soil or soilless mix.

Simon

almost seemed too quick... about a week give or take. that gives me hope for the other two that haven't pushed yet. should i plant at such an early stage or wait at least for the first flush to fully emerge? i'll update as it progresses

[simon_grow]

Direct planting in the ground is a bit complicated but here it goes. If it was an actual Double Stone Graft with both seedlings in the copper leaf stage, you can plant directly into the ground if it took your scion between 2-3 weeks to push as long as temps are not too hot. You can do this because in the copper leaf stage, the seedlings are still depending on the stone(seed) for energy. If the scion took between 2-3 weeks to start pushing, the callous at the graft Union should already be formed and there is less risk of the graft Union drying out.

To be safe, I would recommend everyone keep newly grafted trees in an area with partial sun to allow the union to heal. Once you see the scion begin to push, gradually place it in an area with increasing amounts of sunlight until it is adapted to full sun. Allow it to grow in full sun until the first flush is fully hardened.

Once the initial flush is fully hardened, immediately plant your tree into the ground. Beware that when you remove the tree from the pot, there is an excellent chance the entire rootball will fall apart on you. In order to stabilize the two rootstocks, I use grafting tape to tie the two seedlings together about 1 inch above the soil line. This will prevent the two seedlings from being torn apart during transplanting. These are newly sprouted seedlings and their roots have not had a chance to fill the pot yet. This is OK. If the rootball falls apart, continue planting as normal but be very careful not to split the two seedlings apart.

If you feel you damaged a lot of the roots, give your seedling some shade by moving a potted plant next to it for a couple weeks. Mulch heavily and your tree should grow well for you. Every DSGed tree I have and that I've seen in my friends yard has grown in a horizontal bushy manner. They want to push branches out at very short intervals. Even Lemon Zest is pushing new growth on short branches.

Simon

[vanman]

It's not mango but I did a DSG for avocado.  I got scion from Frank, so it was very fresh.  I also grafted onto Joey at the same time.  The DSG are just starting to push 2 weeks after grafting.  Those grafted on Joey is not pushing yet.  I'll keep my fingers crossed. 



I did DSG on mangos last week, but nothing yet.  Van

[simon_grow]

Nice work but your not out of the woods yet. Sometimes the initial push is from stored up energy from an overly mature scion bud. Once the first flush has fully pushed and hardened, you will be in a much safer position. It looks promising!

Simon

[vanman]

Yes.  I was even hesitant to post this, but it is good information to know that just because it pushes doesn't mean the graft has taken.  I'll keep you updated. 

[raimeiken]

saw this video shared in a facebook group that I follow. Quite an interesting way to graft two rootstock at the same time.

https://www.facebook.com/jualbibittanamanbuah/videos/1064677420306452/

[starch]

saw this video shared in a facebook group that I follow. Quite an interesting way to graft two rootstock at the same time.

https://www.facebook.com/jualbibittanamanbuah/videos/1064677420306452/

That was really cool!!

[simon_grow]

saw this video shared in a facebook group that I follow. Quite an interesting way to graft two rootstock at the same time.

https://www.facebook.com/jualbibittanamanbuah/videos/1064677420306452/

Thanks for sharing the video! That is really cool. Looks like you can use more mature rootstocks with this method, perhaps giving you better survivability of both rootstocks. With the method I'm currently using, if one rootstock dies, the graft will linger and eventually die. With two, more mature rootstocks, there is less chance for one rootstock to die off.

Simon

[simon_grow]

I've been out for a while so I decided it's about time to update some of my experiments.

As most of you are aware, I've been recommending that people in SoCal either use seedling rootstock or Lavern Manilla rootstock as they are proven to grow well here. Lavern Manilla is a safer bet because they are more uniform in what to expect where as seedlings are a gamble although I've had great success with the random seedlings I use.

Numerous people have contacted me regarding purchasing my Double Stone grafted trees but I have not sold a single tree firstly because I'm not in this for making money and secondly because this technique is still unproven here in SoCal. Please remember that these experiments are in reality far from true controlled experiments that the agriculture industry typically imploy. My experiments are more of a backyard hobbyists seeing what would happen if I did this.

I did give away many DSGed trees to various orchards around SD and preliminary results are enough for me to conclude that this technique should not be recommended for the average back yard mango grower here in SoCal.

The initial point of these unscientific experiments is to create a mango tree that shows accelerated growth in our marginal climate. Although initial growth of these DSGed trees was amazing, typically about double compared to single rootstock trees, second year growth was stalled due to continual flowering. Because these trees are grafted with mature scions, they will flower within the first year and there after, wasting valuable resources.

Approximately 50% of the DSGed trees I gave out have eventually died after 1 year or at least one of the seedlings has died leaving only a single rootstock. Many of the trees were given to new mango tree growers that probably over watered the potted trees in Winter but that is beside the point.

Initially I believed this technique would benefit us here in marginal climates with accelerated growth but instead, I'm getting super bushy trees with short internodes that wants to continually flower. I now believe that this technique will most benefit those living is Florida where control of tree size is more important and heavier, more frequent flowering and short bushy trees is preferred.

The growth of the trunk is one of the most amazing attributes of these DSGed trees but the growth is dependent on random seedlings(non clonal) and scion to rootstock influence that nothing can truely be concluded regarding which rootstock scion combinations work best.

Although I do have a couple examples of accelerated growth with this technique, the survivability of the trees combined with the complicated(to the average grower) grafting procedures point to the fact that the risk does not outweigh the reward.

For those growers in SoCal, stick to planting random seedlings in the ground or planting Lavern Manilla or Ataulfo seedlings and make sure you DO NOT GRAFT the tree until it is fully established and has reached fruiting size. By grafting a young tree, florigenic influences(namely cold weather) will induce blooms within a year or two and there after.

For those still not satisfied with typical or average growth, I have utilized the experience I have gained with DSGing and hopefully improved upon it with the California Super Rootstock experiments where I basically innarch multiple seedlings together yielding a tree with multiple rootstocks but Without grafting mature scion onto the seedling so all energy will be focused on vegetative growth. Without the florigenic influence of mature scions, the seedlings should not bloom as quickly as the DSGed trees did.

Simon

[simon_grow]

Please see this thread if you are interested in experimenting with multiple rootstocks.
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=20852.0

Please don't get confused, I am still recommending either planting random seedlings into the ground or purchasing Lavern Manilla seedlings and planting those into the ground for mango growers in SoCal. I have had great success growing random seedlings from store bought fruit into the ground and also excellent results with Lavern Manilla seedlings. The most important thing is Not to Graft with mature scions until the tree is fully established and is fruiting size!

If you live in an exceptionally warm microclimate, you may get enough warm weather to inhibit flowering but this is not the case where I live. If you live in one of these warm areas, your mango trees should grow sufficiently without multiple rootstock technology.

I want to emphasize that I live in a marginal growing area for mango. I get frost every year and my soil pH is 8.2. The soil pH is as much of an issue, if not more so, than the cold weather because micronutrients are not made bioavailable at this high a pH.

In my DSGed experiments, the plants showed explosive growth when first planted into the ground, most likely because I topped the soil with organic amendments and the pH was closer 7. Now that the pH has drifted higher and the nutrients are gone, the growth has slowed dramatically.

I still believe the DSGing technique will be useful for accelerated growth if your soil pH is in the proper range but you will still run into issues with over and pre mature flowering. I believe this technique will be very useful for nurseries especially in Florida with the potential of accelerated growth, precocity and dwarfing the size of the tree.

In case you are wondering, single grafted trees also flower within the first year where I live.

Simon

[simon_grow]

Here is a picture of one of my DSGed Sweet Tart that is doing pretty well despite flowering the first winter I grafted and this year as well. This tree is about 1.5 years old from seed, IIRC, and is over 3 feet tall with flowers growing on 4 main branches. One of the main branches is literally on the ground because I wanted to see what happens if I let it grow naturally. In hind site, I should have pruned it early on because it is extremely lopsided now.





My dates might be wrong but you can look back through this thread for exact dates. I forgot if I tagged the tree with the date I grafted the tree or if I labeled the tree with the date I planted it into the ground.

Simon

[simon_grow]

I just cleared out some of the weeds and finally staked up the branch that was drooping to the ground. This Sweet Tart is about 1.5 years old and is in full bloom. I can probably let it hold a fruit or two but I will be removing all the fruit for at least the next couple years. I just wanted to post this picture before I remove the blooms.



Simon

[behlgarden]

like the low canopy shape there.

[simon_grow]

Thanks Behl, unfortunately it is blooming at much too small a size. I lost at least one growth flush because I grafted it too young. At least I'm learning from my mistakes and pushing forward. I hope others can learn from my mistakes as well:)

Simon

[kalpesh123]

R D kokan Aplhonso mangoes are multiple-rootstock grafted trees.
https://rdkokan.com/eng/

[kalpesh123]

The R D Kokan mangoes are also the mulple stoned grated trees
https://rdkokan.com/eng/

[simon_grow]

Here’s the DSGed Sweet Tart holding a few fruit. The nubbin fruit with aborted seeds often crack and have significantly more lenticels.


Here’s an update of the original DSGed Lemon Zest that started this whole thread. It is starting to Bush out a lot.


Here is a DSGed LZ that I planted in ground at Leo Manuel’s orchard. It was growing slowly and because of the susceptibility to fungal diseases, we decided to remove it. I dug it up several months ago and stuck it in a pot where it began to flush and push a late bloom on one or two branches. This late in the summer heat, fungal diseases are not as prevalent and this tree is holding some very small fruit.





I want to emphasize that I Do Not recommend DSGed trees in SoCal or colder marginal climates as the trees get stunted and grow very low and bushy. In warmer locations, the dwarfing effect may be beneficial but not in San Diego unless you are growing in a pot or doing Bonsai.

I do want to say that as a Bonsai tree, the trunk and overall growth and shape of the tree is absolutely beautiful.

Simon

[Canvo]

First time I have tried a double stone graft (Simon you have inspired me to try this) showing signs of life after 1.5 weeks. The scion is from a seedling Sweet Tart (cheers MR) so hopefully we’ll see how it shapes up down under.

[simon_grow]

Hey Canvo, in warmer climates, this technique may be beneficial in keeping the tree compact and increase precocity. Hopefully the tree will grow well for you. Please keep us updated!

Simon

[Canvo]

Will do, i did about 5 or 6 different varieties, so should be interesting