Crazy Stupid SF Bay Area Tropical Experiment

[joehewitt]

For years I've been wondering what, if any, subtropical fruit trees could make it in my backyard. This year I decided to stop wondering. I'm going to plant several dozen trees, from mango to jaboticaba, black sapote to green sapote, and I will find out once and for all.

Yes, this is a stupid thing to do and I know I'm going to kill a lot of trees. My home in Los Gatos, CA is zone 9b (Sunset 15/16), and while it's relatively warm for the Bay Area, nights are still cool and winters are still cold. Still, the more I hear about NorCal zone pushers succeeding, the more I wonder what my little microclimate could accomplish. Only one way to find out!

So, here is the list of trees I have collected and begun to plant:

* Mango (Antonio, Tequila Sunrise, 4 others)
* Cherry of the Rio Grande
* Cedar Bay Cherry
* Surinam Cherry
* Jaboticaba (Red, Sabara, Yellow, Trunciflora, Grimal, Coronata)
* Pitomba
* Grumichama
* Peanut Butter Fruit (Argentea)
* Black Sapote
* Green Sapote
* Lucuma (highland)
* Cinnamon Apple
* Sunsapote
* Lychee (Mauritius)
* Longan (Kohala, Biew Kiew)
* Genip (Yellow)
* Achacha
* Imbe
* Luc's Mexican Garcinia
* Sugar Apple
* Wax Jambu
* Starfruit (Dwarf Hart)
* Cinnamon (True)
* Allspice

As I said, they're going in the ground, not in pots, because my goal is not just to keep them alive, but to observe how they respond to my climate. I do plant to cover and heat the smallest of the trees during winter, but not the larger ones.

If every single tree dies except for one, I will consider it a success to have discovered one new fruit that grows in my backyard. If not a single tree makes it, that's ok too, then I will be relieved of my tropical lust and can focus again on fruit trees of temperate climates.

In the coming days and weeks I will follow up with photos of each of the plants and begin tracking their progress in this thread.

[starch]

Los Gatos, I know that area! Good luck with your experiment! My location here is also 9b, but I am sunset 13 with sorching hot summers but some cold (slightly below freezing) winters. So I am taking the attitude you have: try a bunch of stuff and see what sticks. I am trying: mango, avocado, black sapote, white sapote, green sapote, mamey sapote, ice cream bean (3 different species), sapodilla, acerola, carambola, cherry of the rio grande, jaboticaba, loquat, rose apple, chermioya, atemoya, custard apple, rollina deliciosa, lychee, longan, blackberry jam fruit, etc.

I wish you (and me) good luck in your endeavors!

[gpuccio]

Good luck! Yes you will kill a lot of those trees if not all. Maybe keep them in pots so you can move them around and keep out of the ground. Los Gatos/Campbell/Saratoga gets darn cold.

[Stan]

The Mangoes? NEVER let 32 get them the first two years. Cover,or even warm with lights or the like.  Don't rely on wishing.

I would strongly recommend you look into building at least a frost cloth shelter for winter. Look up Tammy in Marin's old blog photos. She had a very nice one with the fence behind it. Her blog is gone,but maybe the photos are on GardenWeb.
Some of the plants are hardy. Cinnamon I hear is good to z9. Never tried it though. Visit the tropical fruits exhibit at Quarry Lakes in Fremont. Cherry of the Rio Grand looked fine in mid winter. Avocados grow in bay area deep soils like weeds. No problems at all.  Jabaticaba is another hardy for the bay area's 15-17 Sunset Zones.
Others? You are pioneering with green and black Sapotes.

I myself think Jackfruit is worth a try. Just a hunch.

[BrianL]

I've kept some of that stuff alive outside all year, but in pots directly next to house under overhang.

[barath]

Let me know if you'd like to try any bananas -- I'm happy to pass along pups.

[stuartdaly88]

I will be watching this thread closely!
Please keep us updated on any low temperatures you recieve too so we can follow what your plants are surviving:)
I have tried to do this but am not usualy brave enough I planned to leave half my cherimoya, lucuma, Atemoya and black sapote outside but ended up caving and bringing almost all inside!
Iv left some bananas and Moringa trees inground this year though so keen to see what happens!
In my last house about 10km away(in a river dip though so much colder!) banana died but sprouted back up from the middle, white sapote didnt flinch just stopped growing and new tiny leaves blackened, Marula just went dormant and rose apple branches 3mm and smaller died only. Dragon fruit seedlings only 10/20mm thick did fine just went slightly purple on the tips. Pinaples also just went abit purple but no real damage. Tumeric survived underground. Small rollinia and sugar apple seedlings died but they were only 5mm thick so abit young I think.
The lowest temp was about -3/-5C and daytime temps for 3 months of winter averaged 14C/22C.

Very eager to see bhow you fair thanks for sharing!

[Bush2Beach]

The 1 gallon plants often like to grow a little bigger before being planted out directly. The Jaboticaba's like specific soil and water and do good in pots.

[joehewitt]

The 1 gallon plants often like to grow a little bigger before being planted out directly. The Jaboticaba's like specific soil and water and do good in pots.

I'm mixing my native soil with 50% peat moss before planting the jaboticabas and eugenias, and I'll be focusing on keeping the pH low in the future.

[Stan]

I will be watching this thread closely!
Please keep us updated on any low temperatures you recieve too so we can follow what your plants are surviving:)
I have tried to do this but am not usualy brave enough I planned to leave half my cherimoya, lucuma, Atemoya and black sapote outside but ended up caving and bringing almost all inside!
Iv left some bananas and Moringa trees inground this year though so keen to see what happens!
In my last house about 10km away(in a river dip though so much colder!) banana died but sprouted back up from the middle, white sapote didnt flinch just stopped growing and new tiny leaves blackened, Marula just went dormant and rose apple branches 3mm and smaller died only. Dragon fruit seedlings only 10/20mm thick did fine just went slightly purple on the tips. Pinaples also just went abit purple but no real damage. Tumeric survived underground. Small rollinia and sugar apple seedlings died but they were only 5mm thick so abit young I think.
The lowest temp was about -3/-5C and daytime temps for 3 months of winter averaged 14C/22C.

Very eager to see bhow you fair thanks for sharing!

Pineapples.  I read an article in the Hayward paper of a man who grew them outdoors here in his front yards brick planters- the kind you see fronting a million homes from the 40'-70's.  I have grown them indoors to fruiting. I should move them outdoors for serious try. btw, The indoor fruits were delicious.

Another? Coffee. Just don't plant in too much shade..that really slows down growth. But,it grows here I can tell you that.

[Pancrazio]

With mangoes, the real issue will be the pollination. I have been struggling with it since last years, and honestly, while at the beginning i thought the harder part could have been the frost, this proved remarkably easy to avoid. But when you hope for 5/10° more to allow pollination, and you have a cold wind from West, or two weeks of overcast (or even worse, a big dip in temperatures after a perfectly fine month) things can really go on your nerves. 
Experience this problem for three years in a row, and growing a mango can really become a test of patience.

[knlim000]

joehewitt, keep us updated.  Also, Homedepot has a bunch of manilla mango trees.

[JF]

With mangoes, the real issue will be the pollination. I have been struggling with it since last years, and honestly, while at the beginning i thought the harder part could have been the frost, this proved remarkably easy to avoid. But when you hope for 5/10° more to allow pollination, and you have a cold wind from West, or two weeks of overcast (or even worse, a big dip in temperatures after a perfectly fine month) things can really go on your nerves. 
Experience this problem for three years in a row, and growing a mango can really become a test of patience.

Panz
Northern California has a much more milder climate than you guys. The temps swing are not  even close to what you experience.

[MangoFang]

Joe Hewitt - you MADMAN - Good luck!!!  After you learn your lesson ( ) move south so you can
fulfill your dreams in retirement.

Seriously ..... I hope one or more of your investments surprise you and the rest of us - nature can
often do that!!!!!!

Gary

[BrianL]

Black Sapote I think won't make it in ground.  They get hardier with size, but mine still arn't all year hardy in Bay Area.

[Pancrazio]

Panz
Northern California has a much more milder climate than you guys. The temps swing are not  even close to what you experience.

I'm really at loss when i look at Cali climate. 
I KNOW that there are some zone struggling with low level of heat, while having still milder climate than us (San Francisco? Am I right?) On the other hand in general people in Calif are blessed with more sun than us, so overall the have a lot more possibilities.
Dunno. My only point is, "once you get your plant to survive, you are only halfway trough: consider pollination too".

[barath]

Panz
Northern California has a much more milder climate than you guys. The temps swing are not  even close to what you experience.

I'm really at loss when i look at Cali climate. 
I KNOW that there are some zone struggling with low level of heat, while having still milder climate than us (San Francisco? Am I right?) On the other hand in general people in Calif are blessed with more sun than us, so overall the have a lot more possibilities.
Dunno. My only point is, "once you get your plant to survive, you are only halfway trough: consider pollination too".

You are correct.  There are number of very mild coastal locations in California that have very little or no frost but also very little growing heat.  Check out Shelter Cove, at 40N, and still virtually frost free (even the record all-time lows are very mild), but with virtually no growing heat:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelter_Cove,_California#Climate

There are many cities like it in terms of lack of both frost and heat along the coast -- from North to South: Shelter Cove, San Francisco, Half Moon Bay, Pacific Grove, and San Simeon.  But a lot of these have to do with the contours of the coast and the ocean currents, because there are other cities along the coast in between these that I listed that get plenty of frost.  Locations around San Francisco bay benefit from the bay waters, with most locations immediately adjacent to the bay being nearly frost free and also getting more growing heat.

Overall California benefits from the flow of the jet stream combined with mountain ranges, so arctic air very rarely blasts us.  Also the ocean temperatures here are very stable, about 10 degrees F change between winter and summer, whereas on the East Coast of the U.S. the temperatures can change by 30-40 degrees F between winter and summer.

[Stan]

Its like Sicily compared to inland Italy..a huge range of subtropical to ...what you are gardening under...chilly mild temperate Med climate. You must see 20's often in winter,every winter.
Mangoes are such rewarding tree's. That they can have sweet edible top grade fruit at 5' tall is amazing.

[joehewitt]

My spot in California is inland, so we get more heat and more cold than the coastal and bayside locations. However, I'm 600 feet up in the foothills of the Santa Cruz Mountains, so that spares me from the worst of the winter lows that hit the valley below. I still get colder than the east bay cities, but if it's 33F in Fremont (near the bay) it's 30F in my backyard, and 27F in San Jose (valley floor). But on a hot summers day, it might be 90F here and San Jose, but only 80F in Fremont. Meanwhile, San Francisco is always 60F every single day of the year. The Bay Area climate can be really confusing!

[barath]

I should add that the flip side is that the cities in California in the central valley have what is a much more traditionally Mediterranean climate -- cool winters with some frost and hot dry summers, with relatively high nighttime temperatures in the summer.  One of the more successful tropical fruit growers in Northern California appears to have been Jeff from Modesto who used to post on Cloudforest back in the day -- he grew and fruited mangoes some years ago, along with many other tropicals, that many folks in the SF bay area have struggled with.  Modesto has a good amount of growing heat, and he was lucky to have a relatively low frost microclimate in Modesto.

[barath]

My spot in California is inland, so we get more heat and more cold than the coastal and bayside locations. However, I'm 600 feet up in the foothills of the Santa Cruz Mountains, so that spares me from the worst of the winter lows that hit the valley below. I still get colder than the east bay cities, but if it's 33F in Fremont (near the bay) it's 30F in my backyard, and 27F in San Jose (valley floor). But on a hot summers day, it might be 90F here and San Jose, but only 80F in Fremont. Meanwhile, San Francisco is always 60F every single day of the year. The Bay Area climate can be really confusing!

Sounds like you're in one of the best microclimates in the bay area to try this stuff!  It'll be great to see how this experiment goes.

Axel from Cloudforest had a similar topographical location before he moved to SoCal, but since he was on the other side of the Santa Cruz mountains he got Santa Cruz weather as his baseline (though his garden was a bit warmer than Santa Cruz proper given that he was inland a bit) rather than San Jose weather -- so a similar frost profile to you but not as much growing heat.  His location always seemed like a nice balance of heat/frost/rainfall, but yours may be even better.

[starch]

My spot in California is inland, so we get more heat and more cold than the coastal and bayside locations. However, I'm 600 feet up in the foothills of the Santa Cruz Mountains, so that spares me from the worst of the winter lows that hit the valley below. I still get colder than the east bay cities, but if it's 33F in Fremont (near the bay) it's 30F in my backyard, and 27F in San Jose (valley floor). But on a hot summers day, it might be 90F here and San Jose, but only 80F in Fremont. Meanwhile, San Francisco is always 60F every single day of the year. The Bay Area climate can be really confusing!

Yep, I used to live in Mountain View. Summer was warm, but not unpleasant. But certainly hot enough to ripen subtropicals!

[Pancrazio]

You are correct.  There are number of very mild coastal locations in California that have very little or no frost but also very little growing heat.  Check out Shelter Cove, at 40N, and still virtually frost free (even the record all-time lows are very mild), but with virtually no growing heat:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelter_Cove,_California#Climate

There are many cities like it in terms of lack of both frost and heat along the coast -- from North to South: Shelter Cove, San Francisco, Half Moon Bay, Pacific Grove, and San Simeon.  But a lot of these have to do with the contours of the coast and the ocean currents, because there are other cities along the coast in between these that I listed that get plenty of frost.  Locations around San Francisco bay benefit from the bay waters, with most locations immediately adjacent to the bay being nearly frost free and also getting more growing heat.

Overall California benefits from the flow of the jet stream combined with mountain ranges, so arctic air very rarely blasts us.  Also the ocean temperatures here are very stable, about 10 degrees F change between winter and summer, whereas on the East Coast of the U.S. the temperatures can change by 30-40 degrees F between winter and summer.

I see what you mean. This is just another confirmation to what i have been thinking in last few years; there isn't a climate really comparable between US and Italy. I have been searching for a place with a rains/extremes/temperature comparable to Florence pretty much in all California and East coast, but to date i haven't be able to find any. This would have been really useful both to me and to the guys living in that place, but i haven't been able to find any.
The best match i have found to date between Florence and a US city is Virginia Beach (VA) which has both summer and winter temperature averages and extremes pretty similar to ours.
But this doesn’t mean that we don't have a climate similar to California in Italy: we indeed have one but it is extremely limited in surface. It's a shallow strip of ground around the city of Alassio. Frost free environment with summer temperatures averaging 75-80°F in summer max temps. Incidentally, there are grown some of the best chinotto oranges, but not so much tropical fruit culture. But as i said it's a very narrow strip, not more than 1500 feet wide. As in cali, mountains to the north, and facing the sea.

Its like Sicily compared to inland Italy..a huge range of subtropical to ...what you are gardening under...chilly mild temperate Med climate. You must see 20's often in winter,every winter.
Mangoes are such rewarding tree's. That they can have sweet edible top grade fruit at 5' tall is amazing.

Indeed i dip in the 20s every winter, and i consider myself lucky and the winter "mild" if i don't dip in the teens. In historical record my city had temperatures going down under the 0 (that is, 0F) in last 30 years. Russian cold spells, although rare, ain't no joke.

Mango are indeed great. My only complain is the high heat they need to ripen fruit, but if you don't consider this, it's a plant that looks like it was invented to allow people outside tropics to grow it. It stands well extremes, is drought tolerant, it flowers repeatedly, with a flower induction triggered by cold/drought, grows nicely in pot. I have found that if you time flowers removal appropriatedly you can pretty much decide WHEN the plant is gonna flower which proves invaluable in colder climate. Having the plant to flower in the right time is very important.

[barath]

I see what you mean. This is just another confirmation to what i have been thinking in last few years; there isn't a climate really comparable between US and Italy. I have been searching for a place with a rains/extremes/temperature comparable to Florence pretty much in all California and East coast, but to date i haven't be able to find any. This would have been really useful both to me and to the guys living in that place, but i haven't been able to find any.
The best match i have found to date between Florence and a US city is Virginia Beach (VA) which has both summer and winter temperature averages and extremes pretty similar to ours.

The closest I can think of to Florence here on the West coast of the US are Roseburg, OR and Ukiah, CA:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roseburg,_Oregon#Climate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukiah,_California#Climate

You might find this site interesting -- it gives several central CA locations if you select Florence (it's basing things on mean monthly temperature alone -- I suggested the two cities above because they are Mediterranean climates with a bit of rain in the summer like you have):

http://www.codeminders.com/weather_similarity/#

[Stan]

Italy has the Mediterranean sea. It warms in summer..but is a pond compared to the Pacific that borders California. The Alaskan current makes only bits of Chile and a tiny bit of Australia and a bite South Africa to have a Med climate and cold currents offshore. A rare Med climate in a bigger Med climate.
Heck I grew up never spending a day in warm ocean waters.  Still haven't-lol.  The bay does get warm as you go to its southern edges in summertime. 70's - 80+. Not many people know that.