Author Topic: Using Grow Lights during Winter  (Read 8590 times)

SonnyCrockett

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Using Grow Lights during Winter
« on: October 28, 2015, 12:11:54 PM »
Is anybody using grow lights on their container citrus over the winter? 

How do you know what size lights to use?  Or what type?  It seems like there are a dizzying array of sizes, types, and prices.  I can apparently spend $5 on a LED screw-in light bulb all the way up to $1,500 on a big LED lamp that hangs from the ceiling.  There are also Metal Halide (MH) bulbs and High Pressure Sodium (HPS) bulbs.  Is there a good source of info on this for use on citrus plants? 

Instead of putting my plants in the ground this Fall, I am thinking about keeping them potted and indoors at my shop near the windows with grow lights (and heaters) over the Winter.  Would this would help them add some size before the Spring?  My new plants from Harris and Four Winds are really tiny.

brian

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2015, 02:06:34 PM »
I did some research on this years ago, and overwintered some trees inside under grow lights before I moved to my winter greenhouse setup.  I was trying to go as cheap as possible at that time, and I went with an array (~8) of round metal hanging light fixtures from walmart, using compact flourescent bulbs (the spiral bulbs).  This was before LEDs were affordable. 

These days, the most efficient lights in terms of lumens per watt are LEDs.  If you have your plants in an area that is already heated, like inside a room of your house, then this seems like the best solution as you won't need the waste heat to keep the plants warm.

The other extreme is metal halide or high pressure sodium (HPS).  These are put out a ton of light, and also a ton of heat.  If you need the waste heat to keep the room/plants warm, these might be a good option so you don't need a ton of fixtures.  There's a risk of burning your plants or worse a fire if things get too close or fall over.

Flourescent lights are probably in between these two extremes, they put out a decent amount of heat but not enough to worry about burning the plants or starting fires.  CFL bulbs are dirt cheap, and you can also get very densely packed tube fixtures specifically for growing plants.

Once you decide on a light source, the next thing is to ensure that the root zone is warm enough (>55F but higher is better up to 85F).  If the roots are cold they won't transport water & nutrients up and you'll get what they call 'winter leaf drop'.  You can check soil temps with a cheap digital meat thermometer if you're concerned about it.  I found one for $10, worth every penny.

The last concern, that maybe I'm blowing out of proportion, is that neighbors/police might think you are growing weed.  I have always worried that one day the cops will kick my greenhouse door in and take all my citrus trees rather than admit their mistake.


« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 02:14:16 PM by brian »

Millet

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2015, 03:08:03 PM »
I have used a 250 watt Metal halide light, along with a soil heating cable during the winter months.  I also had  a white back drop that reflected the light back onto the trees.    The trees that I lit that winter produced 5 growth flushes (one new growth flush about every two months).  Worked excellent. This winter I am going to do the same on an in ground Dekopon that is growing inside my greenhouse. - Millet
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 12:50:08 PM by Millet »

luak

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2015, 07:54:24 PM »
I just bought two led shoplights at Sam's, they fixture were made from alumnium and they sure produce a very bright light. I got them in my basement workshop that  i use for my tropicals during the winter months. The price was $37.00 a piece. I should have bought a few more. Sometimes it is painful to have to watch your pennies.

SonnyCrockett

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2015, 02:40:26 PM »
I have been reading on the indoor plant lighting (read: weed growing) sites that the "warm red" florescent bulbs are for flowering.  Does that mean they trigger flowering or they just support the plant better when it flowers?

How do I  figure out when plants should be under "blue" lights and when they should be under "red" light?  Is there a way to find out flowering times for different plants?

nullzero

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2015, 02:53:58 PM »
How big is the plant sq ft wise? for every 4 sq ft you should have at least 100watt of LED power (make sure its true wattage not equivalent). This should be enough to fruit a citrus indoors (definitely enough for vegetative growth). The space should be enclosed with reflective material such as mylar or flat white paint to increase the effectiveness of the lights.

Here is example of a good 100watt (true wattage) LED light.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MarsHydro-180W-UFO-LED-Grow-Light-Lamp-Full-Spectrum-For-Indoor-Veg-Flowering-/291131781949?hash=item43c8ce733d:g:dZcAAOSwKPNTzNA0

Spectrum of our lights: 430~440nm, 450~475nm 620~630nm, 650~660nm and white.
LEDs: 60*3WLEDs = 180W (but this is under drived to increase LED life and reduce heat)
Dimension: 10*10*2inches
Lumen: 4250lumens
Coverage:2*2ft( Veg), 1.5*1.5ft(Flowering)
Output power:180Watt
Power consumption: 110V: 102W-109W/220V: 99W-104W (this is the true wattage consumption of the light)
Grow mainly fruits, vegetables, and herbs.

SonnyCrockett

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2015, 10:19:30 PM »


My lights finally came in.  I haven't got everything set up yet.  I went with three fluorescent fixtures that have twelve t-5 bulbs per fixture.  The fixtures are rated for 60,000 lumens each.  One is set up with only 6500k "blue" lights, another has only 2700k "red" lights, and the fixture between them has half and half "blue" and "red".  I think I might end up turning the fixtures and bringing them closer together, so the light overlaps better.  I plan on enclosing the area with white walls and putting down white plastic on the floors.  I picked up a digital meat thermometer and already have a fan and heater for the area. 

Millet

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2015, 10:47:22 AM »
Citrus, like all plants, use light for photosynthesis. It is through photosynthesis that the tree manufactures its food.  The amount of light to promote the photosynthesis process in citrus trees maxes out at 650 PAR, which is approximately 1/3 of full sunlight.  Light above 650 PAR does not provide any additional benefit.  Therefore, to obtain additional growth for citrus it is through longer hours of light each day, and not from higher light sources.  Presently I am heating and lighting a Dekopon, from sunset to 10:30 at night using a  metal halide light. This provides the tree with 16 hours of light every day - 7 days a week. I expect 5 flushes of growth.- Millet

Millet

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2015, 11:11:41 AM »
On November 8, I started to continuously heat my Dekopon tree's root system to 80-F using a heating cable, plus lighting the foliage from sunset until 10:30 PM using a Metal Halide light .  This morning (11-20-2015) I noticed the first sign of a good flush of new growth beginning. This is flush number one, and I expect 4 or 5 more flushes this winter.  I plan to post every additional flush as it appears. - Millet

fyliu

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2015, 03:46:45 PM »
Yes, cannabis forums are the best for learning about indoor growing.
I thought I remember blue will trigger flowering and red is for vegetative growth. Oh well, my memory's never been great.
Anyway, having both will increase light absorption since like Millet said, it will only absorb so much at each wavelength. Or is that 650 PAR the total light processing ability of the plant for all wavelengths?

Plants will absorb less blue light than red light though. So I think you don't need as many blues.

Millet

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2015, 12:39:07 PM »
On November 8, 2015 I began  lighting a young Dekopon citrus tree  from sunset until 10:30 PM using a 250 watt metal halide light,  and heating the tree's root zone to 81-F  every day.  On the 20th of November, 12 days after I begun lighting, the tree started to flush  new growth. Now 38 days later the new flush has reached its final length, and has put on 7 inches of new growth distributed to all parts of the tree, top, bottom, and sides.  The length of new growth that a citrus tree will produce is set in the meristem tissue before the flush begins. When the number of predetermined nodes has been fulfilled the flush automatically stops.  Now all that is left is for the leaves to expand to their full size.  A citrus leaf does not produce any energy for the tree until is has reach its full size.  Until that happens the tree is still using some of its energy reserves to accomplish this final task.  Of course, I will keep on heating and lighting the tree every day, and expect the next flush to begin around the first part of February + or -. Normally when a tree is lit and heated one can expect 5 flushes of growth per year. - Millet
« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 01:04:58 PM by Millet »

nullzero

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2015, 03:02:36 PM »
Yes, cannabis forums are the best for learning about indoor growing.
I thought I remember blue will trigger flowering and red is for vegetative growth. Oh well, my memory's never been great.
Anyway, having both will increase light absorption since like Millet said, it will only absorb so much at each wavelength. Or is that 650 PAR the total light processing ability of the plant for all wavelengths?

Plants will absorb less blue light than red light though. So I think you don't need as many blues.

There is a lot of interesting things that can be manipulated with different light spectrum. I have heard actually that blue light is better for vegetative growth and that the blue light spectrum can also shorten the internodes of plants. There is a lot of good info on https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceBuckets/  a good deal of the info is focused toward indoor growing of cannabis growing, but there is a large amount of indoor lighting and ideas for all types of plants (and the forum is more friendly to browse then any of the various cannabis growing forums).

If you really want to get a lot of great detailed info on lighting for plant growing I suggest reading through the posts here: https://www.reddit.com/r/HandsOnComplexity
Grow mainly fruits, vegetables, and herbs.

fyliu

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2015, 03:53:41 PM »
That paper on green light being efficient for photosynthesis is interesting. I guess the light that get filtered through the leaves should still be useful for everything underneath.

Millet

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2015, 11:13:17 PM »
Michigan State University Extension is now offering a non-credit, pre-recorded online course on greenhouse and horticultural lighting. The lighting course is intended for greenhouse and ornamental plant growers and others interested learning about the fundamental concepts about how plants respond to light quality, quantity and in duration. It provides introductory to moderately-challenging content primarily based on experiments performed at Michigan State and Purdue Universities.

What Growers Will Learn From Taking This Course
The 3-hours of pre-recorded lecture and video demonstrations are divided into seven units. The first and second units cover the properties of light and its importance for plant growth and development. The third unit discusses how light quality influences stem extension and flowering. The fourth unit of the course teaches participants about light intensity and its importance for plant growth as well as the factors that affect light availability and how to manipulate and measure light intensity in the greenhouse. Unit four also features four videos that demonstrate how light transmission is affected by the glazing material of a greenhouse, how growers can measure instantaneous light intensity and daily light integral in their greenhouse and how to measure light intensity and quality from light-emitting diodes (LEDs).

The fifth unit discusses how light quantity affects plant shoot and root growth and branching, focusing on responses to the average daily light integral (DLI). Unit six covers photoperiod and long-day lighting strategies, featuring the latest research on delivering long days with LEDs. The final unit on supplemental lighting discusses the advantages and limitations of different lamp types, provides guidelines of when to deliver supplemental lighting to increase DLI and the factors to consider when selecting a lamp for your horticultural application.

Millet-(I have taken this course, it certainly tells you everything about agricultural lighting)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 11:15:03 PM by Millet »

Millet

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2015, 11:20:41 PM »
As far as I understand plants don't use green light. The reason plants look green, is because they absorb various spectrum's of light, but reflect away the green spectrum that they can't use.  Our eyes see the green spectrum that the plants deflect away, that is why we see plants as green. - Millet.

pitbull-rus

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2016, 04:04:52 AM »
My young trees two months grew under artificial light 16 hours a day.The effect was positive but very weak.Last month I looked at the coverage around the clock.Many of my trees began to produce new leaves.I use the red LEDs and blue spectrum.The ratio of 4:1.At the moment the quantity of light of about 25 watts per meter,it is not enough.Waiting for new bulbs.

fyliu

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2016, 12:16:46 PM »
As far as I understand plants don't use green light. The reason plants look green, is because they absorb various spectrum's of light, but reflect away the green spectrum that they can't use.  Our eyes see the green spectrum that the plants deflect away, that is why we see plants as green. - Millet.
That's what I learned too in high school. I was able to skip Bio classes in college although I took a few higher courses for fun.

But the guy showed a photo of a leaf in green light and it looked dark, meaning it absorbed a lot of the green. So I was wondering if our existing textbooks on this is outdated information. The paper seems to suggest the green color is not really meant to reject the green light but to filter it through so that all the leaves under the top one will get quality lighting for photosynthesis. Their experiment doesn't say all-green light is better though. It's that green light in bright white light is better. I still haven't finished it to know if that includes the red and blue.

Millet

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2016, 04:17:50 PM »
pitbull-rus, 25 watt is really quit low to expect much.  Personally I would not use any light less then 250 watt.  In my tree lighting I am using a 250 watt metal halide lamp. Very brite.- Millet

pitbull-rus

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2016, 05:55:26 PM »
pitbull-rus, 25 watt is really quit low to expect much.  Personally I would not use any light less then 250 watt.  In my tree lighting I am using a 250 watt metal halide lamp. Very brite.- Millet
I tend to think that range is more important than high power.On Russian forums too much controversy what is more important,the spectrum of red and blue, white or high power.I now choose range.And led bulbs are economical.

daytripper

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2016, 10:26:57 AM »
pitbull-rus, 25 watt is really quit low to expect much.  Personally I would not use any light less then 250 watt.  In my tree lighting I am using a 250 watt metal halide lamp. Very brite.- Millet
I tend to think that range is more important than high power.On Russian forums too much controversy what is more important,the spectrum of red and blue, white or high power.I now choose range.And led bulbs are economical.

LED's are much more efficent then a MH.  A 250w MH lamp puts out about the same lumens as a 150W LED.  The biggest advantage is that the LED produces much less heat so it can be much closer to the plant then a MH or HPS without burning the plant.  LED plant light technology has advanced a lot in the last 5 years and while the most bang for your buck is still a HPS bulb, LED is bridging the gap very quickly.

pitbull-rus

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2016, 10:48:22 AM »
For LEDs it is better to put lenses 30,45,60 degrees.

Millet

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2016, 11:43:22 AM »
I'm sure that each type of light, MH, LED, HPS, Florescent etc, have their advantages.  I read a lot on forms about the heat and especially the cost of using a metal halide light.  When your lighting one or two trees with a metal halide light, we certainly are not talking about much money to light a tree. One would spend a 1,000 times more money at the gas station then they would ever spend lighting a MH bulb. Personally, I would count the heat that the light puts out a benefit, not a disavantage.  - Millet

pitbull-rus

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2016, 11:49:27 AM »
Has anyone tried to put Xenon? Which is used in cars .

SonnyCrockett

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2016, 09:07:32 PM »


In my makeshift grow room, a lot of plants are flowering now.  Especially my Owari Satsuma that usually looks so scraggly.  I'm seeing growth flushes on some of my small new plants from Harris, but not a crazy amount.  I left my Valencia outside, since it is so large and it has a lot of small fruit on it now from a recent flowering.  It's close to the house, but has already seen a few 28 degree nights with a makeshift cardboard cover.

Millet

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Re: Using Grow Lights during Winter
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2016, 04:52:13 PM »

 

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