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Messages - Sylvain

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1
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Limon Rosso
« on: September 05, 2017, 06:02:49 AM »
Limon rosso is a nice fruit to look at but this is its only use. You cannot eat any part of that fruit, it is very bad.
Mine was very nice but (as Millet would say) it finished on the compost pile.  ;)

2
Citrus General Discussion / Re: ID of a citrus tree grown from seed
« on: September 02, 2017, 05:23:40 PM »
You are right the petiole has very large wings, that's why I wrote 'make me think of'. I meant I was not sure...

3
Citrus General Discussion / Re: ID of a citrus tree grown from seed
« on: September 02, 2017, 12:49:00 PM »
Not a mandarin with these winged petioles. The hairy new growths make me think of a pomelo.

4
Citrus General Discussion / Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« on: August 07, 2017, 01:08:38 PM »
Thanks to Ilya11 who brought it to the french forum.

5
Citrus General Discussion / Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« on: August 07, 2017, 03:13:42 AM »

6
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: August 06, 2017, 09:40:06 AM »
After one day of research, in "Breeding For Ornamentals: Classical and Molecular Approaches" I found:



Notice the "without exception"!

7
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: August 05, 2017, 06:58:44 PM »
Well, it seems that only L1 is lost in the root. That means that L2 and L3 are present.
Do you agree with that?

And thank you for L1 = juice. Very interesting.

8
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: August 05, 2017, 11:11:00 AM »
Quote
Fruit juice is L1.
Could you give your sources. Please.

In "The citrus  industry" I found few lines going in that way, but it's old (1968):
Quote
In Japan, two citrus forms considered to be synthetic periclinal chimeras have been in existence for some fifty years (Samura and Nakahara, 1928; Takahashi, 1962).   The Kobayashi Mikan is recorded as having arisen at the junction where a satsuma scion was grafted onto Natsudaidai.   This scion was accidently [sic] broken off at its base, after which two adventitious buds emerged, one of which grew into the original chimeral tree.   This chimera produces fruit with rind like Natsudaidai, but with flesh like satsuma.   It is seedy, and seedlings from one fruit were reported to be Natsudaidai (Dr. Yuishiro Tanaka, unpublished).   In this chimera, histogenic Layer II appears to be genetically Natsudaidai, while Layer I should be satsuma.
and
Quote
It appears that a mutant color factor is present in the Thompson in histogenic Layer I; this layer provides at least part of the cells of the juice vesicles

If it is confirmed we could be in presence of MMP as you say.

It means that among the roots adventices we might find many PMP and few MMP. Just the same as if the origin is PMP, because the L1 is dropped off.
In the first hypothesis (PMP) the majority should be identical to the origin and in the second  hypothesis (MMP) the majority should be different from the origin.

The suspense is unbearable!...  ;)

And indeed if the truth is "It seems that the shoots are made of F2 or F3." we shall obtain many poncirus and few mandarines...

9
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: August 05, 2017, 07:44:52 AM »
Quote
"Studying" different chimeras between medlar and hawthorn, i came to the conclusion that spines are from L3.
Could you give the source of what makes you think so?
Because from what I read  the Crateagomespilus chimera is of the type  crateagus/mespilus/mespilus. It is thorny and the thorns come from crateagus (L1).
https://books.google.fr/books?id=ZVdoUPtqKCIC&pg=PA190&lpg=PA190&dq=Crataegomespilus+origin+of+thorns&source=bl&ots=9Vhk-EzVs9&sig=VPhgI6_t7w53XJ2754bhK7kKETA&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9o6ez-7_VAhVDaVAKHYgRAZs4ChDoAQgoMAA#v=onepage&q=Crataegomespilus%20origin%20of%20thorns&f=false

11
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: July 17, 2017, 06:43:58 PM »
Thank you Ilya, very interesting. So we have some chance to obtain something new!  :)
We shall see in two years. One to root the cuttings and one to grow the roots adventices.

12
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: July 17, 2017, 09:15:53 AM »
Quote
Tomorrow I shall start rooting many  cuttings...
Done.

Quote
If I am right we might obtain a copy PMP or a very near form MMP (without thorns!).
The MMP could be less cold hardy than PMP.
I don't know from which layer the new L1 is created...
From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC160199/pdf/041089.pdf It seems that the shoots are made of F2 or F3.
It means we should obtain MMM and PPP.
No MMP without thorns.  :'(

13
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: July 14, 2017, 07:23:32 PM »
Yes I already thought that. It eliminates the L1 if I remember well.
To root cuttings must not be difficult. I shall do it.
What seems harder is to recreate a plant starting from roots only...
I have seen it many times append naturally but never did it in purpose.

If I am right we might obtain a copy PMP or a very near form MMP (without thorns!).
The MMP could be less cold hardy than PMP.
I don't know from which layer the new L1 is created...

Tomorrow I shall start rooting many  cuttings... :-)

14
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: July 14, 2017, 06:30:32 AM »
Prague is a chimera of a large flowers poncirus (because I saw it) and a mandarin. The kind of mandarin is not known. We speculate that it is a satsuma because it was found in Prague and the fruits are seedless but the rind doesn't easily separate from the pulp (at least it is not so easy as for satsuma).

We can go farther. It is a periclinal chimera because of the leaves patern and a high stability.
The tree is thorny when poncirus are and mandarins are not. This character is carried by the first layer L1. It means the first layer is from Poncirus L1=P.
The fruit is pure mandarin and the leave margin is evergreen, it means the second layer is mandarin: L2=M.
The leaves center changes in autumn which means L3 is poncirus: L3=P.
So it seems that the periclinal chimerism is of the PMP type.

15
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Growing lemons from seed?
« on: July 11, 2017, 11:25:16 AM »
nucellular ( true from seeds)  ;)

16
> Is oryzaline less dangerous?
Yes much less dangerous but don't drink it. ;-)

17
There is a DIY way to obtain triploids. Just grow the small seeds that you usually discard.
They are hard to grow but a significant number are triploid.

There is a (nearly) simple way to obtain tetraploids using oryzaline.
Here I show how I did ( Sorry it is for register people only , it's in french and the picture are long to load...):
http://www.agrumes-passion.com/experimentations-agrumes-f70/topic4547.html

18
> It seems the thing to look for in the leaf is not more, but less stomata per area and larger guard cells, when compared to normal diploid leaves...
Yes, that's right.

19
Mikkel, the document is not public: "Your authentication to this fulltext delivery has expired. Please go back and try again by logging back into the site and requesting the document."

In this thread we see many speculations or guessing but poofs are missing...

20
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: June 24, 2017, 06:48:55 AM »
You can find flowers all over the warm seasons but main flowers times are spring (one month after poncirus) and now.
Fruits of the first bloom will be ripe before the first freezes but the ones of the second bloom will have to be protected.

At this time of the year, the fruits of the first bloom are marble size.

21
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« on: June 04, 2017, 11:32:02 AM »
No, I received no mail.
Where did you try? In PM here or on the French forum or in my personal email?

22
Citrus General Discussion / Re: What's wrong with my Tangelo tree?
« on: June 04, 2017, 02:07:49 AM »
But first take out the grass at the bottom of the plant!
It takes all the nitrogen  of your fertilizer.

23
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Strange citrus hybrid
« on: June 02, 2017, 04:39:57 PM »
I totally agree.

24
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« on: June 02, 2017, 05:27:19 AM »
> I don`t want to overestimate this but I feel a bit offended. Do I get you wrong
Yes completely wrong.

Where did you ask me? On a forum or by mail?
I cannot speak freely on this forum. I have already been censored.
It's why my answers are so short and abstruse.
It is better if you contact me by mail.

25
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« on: June 01, 2017, 12:33:19 PM »
My C. wintersii are not of hybrid offspring.

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