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Author Topic: Citsuma Prague  (Read 3524 times)

Ilya11

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2017, 11:46:44 AM »
Radoslav,
I got my plant from B.Voss in 2004 and it looks exactly like a plant that has  Snek ( willow like with slim contorted  twigs).   
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Radoslav

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2017, 01:36:22 PM »
i have never been interested in so called hardy citruses, but in this case I am forced  ;D to start a little investigation  8). Last week I personally met with one of the founders of czechoslovakian citrus growing. He grows citruses for more than 65 years. He traveled across USSR many times serching for citruses and other agricultural plants. He personally grafted some budwood on The Friendship Tree in Sochi, he speaks fluently russian, ukrainian, chechen, georgian etc. He cooperated with all soviet citrus experimental stations. Yesterday I sent him an e-mail and asked him about this case, because he cooperated with professor Pospisil in seventies. Once he will answer my question, I let you know more.

Millet

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2017, 03:40:55 PM »
For members that do not know what the Citrus Friendship Tree is that Radoslav wrote about in the above post see link below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship_Tree
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 03:44:54 PM by Millet »

Sylvain

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2017, 07:23:03 PM »
Radoslav, the one we have is not the Chimere no.19. On our plants the leaves are smaller than the fruits and the fruits are spherical not depressed at the apex.
And yes, it looks like flying dragon. For years mine behaved like this. It is only since two years that it started to grow upright.
Voss, Brosa, Snek, Ilya and I have the same plant. On the pictures there is no doubt.

Could you take a picture of the one witch still remains in the greenhouse in university of Prague? This way I could tell you if it's the same plant than the one we have.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 07:27:24 PM by Sylvain »

Radoslav

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2017, 04:35:46 AM »
I asked for picture, once I receive it, I will post it.

Florian

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2017, 04:15:06 AM »
This topic is turning out to be so great, thank you all for your contributions.
Sylvain, your plant has a nice, tall trunk. Did it form that all by itself or did you prune it that way? I am asking because you say it will grow upwards over time anyway but at the moment I doubt a bit that mine would form such a nice trunk..

Radoslav

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2017, 01:44:38 PM »
Just one note to the topic. Professor Pavel Valíček, co author of the book Pěstování citrusů (Growing of citruses) issued in 1987 from which are the pictures, confirmed to me, that hybrid Unshiu x Poncirus was selected by professor Pospisil in seventies, the plant is still in greenhouse of university in Prague.
But I remember that Ilya posted at old forum article, that unshiu mandarins do not hybridize and cross pollination with poncirus is only used to obtain seeds to get nucellar seedlings, or mutants. So it is possible that plant mentioned above is chimera, or mutant.

Ilya11

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2017, 03:34:31 PM »
But I remember that Ilya posted at old forum article, that unshiu mandarins do not hybridize and cross pollination with poncirus is only used to obtain seeds to get nucellar seedlings, or mutants. So it is possible that plant mentioned above is chimera, or mutant.
It is not a case, pollination with foreign pollen is used to enhance seed  formation in satsuma.
Poncirus is used because  its hybrids with satsuma having three leaflets are easily distinguished from   nucellar seedlings that are screened for for new traits emerging through natural somatic mutagenesis.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Millet

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2017, 11:54:20 AM »
The odds of a mutant must be every slim, taking many many many  seed germinations.

Ilya11

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2017, 01:25:52 PM »
Of course, you need a large population of nucellar seedlings to produce better varieties.
But somatic mutations are not particularly rare.  Out of 200 nucellar seedlings  of Miyagawa-wase two new varieties: 'Okitsu-Wase' and 'Miho-Wase were selected in Japan.
http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/1964-vol-77/79-83%20(NISHIURA).pdf
also
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Millet

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2017, 03:41:09 PM »
Plus not all mutations are superior varieties, some mutations are inferior varieties. Even then it could take 5- 10 years before fruit developed to determine if the new mutant is worth while. However it is always an adventure. Good luck.

Sylvain

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2017, 06:54:13 PM »
> Sylvain, your plant has a nice, tall trunk. Did it form that all by itself or did you prune it that way?
It is the rootstock (poncirus).

Radoslav

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2017, 07:50:15 AM »
Of course, you need a large population of nucellar seedlings to produce better varieties.
But somatic mutations are not particularly rare.  Out of 200 nucellar seedlings  of Miyagawa-wase two new varieties: 'Okitsu-Wase' and 'Miho-Wase were selected in Japan.
http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/1964-vol-77/79-83%20(NISHIURA).pdf
also


Interestig article. There s a nice story related to satsuma cultivars released in sixties mentioned in that article. Professor Pospisil from Czechoslovakia met with japan delegation at symposium at that time and they offered to him and his university in Prague some budwood.
It arrived in 1971 or so trough Japan embassy. It was then encrypted under names J1, J2 ....J6, means Japan 1 etc. and put on tests. For better chance to survive, budwood was also secretly given to 2 experienced growers to test it in thier private colections. I personally saw last week these trees in private collection still alive and kicking. Then it was oficially announced to USSR. Russians asked for budwood, but official statement from CSSR was that budwood did not survived.
After some time the names were released.
J1 - Okitsu
J2 - Matsuyama
J3 - Miyagawa
J4 - Miho
J5 - citrus sulcata
J6 - citrus sunki

Millet

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2017, 04:32:55 PM »
Ilya11 thank you for the Okitsu, Japan Horticultural Research Station article.  Interesting reading.

jim VH

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2017, 11:33:28 AM »
Millet,

Stan McKenzie sometimes has grafted Prague Citsumas available.  The one I got grafted -he thinks- on Poncirus rootstock had one small fruit last winter.  It was very good, sweet with a mandarin flavor and no poncirus aftertaste.

Millet

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2017, 01:03:15 PM »
jim VH, thanks for the tip. I'll contact Stan and ask if he presently has any in stock.  I've known Stan for quite some time.

Florian

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2017, 11:43:28 AM »
Quick update, my Citsuma has decided to flower for the first time and I am quite happy.
Ilya, what time of year does yours usually flower? I assume mine is so late because it is the first time?

cheers

Sylvain

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2017, 06:48:55 AM »
You can find flowers all over the warm seasons but main flowers times are spring (one month after poncirus) and now.
Fruits of the first bloom will be ripe before the first freezes but the ones of the second bloom will have to be protected.

At this time of the year, the fruits of the first bloom are marble size.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 07:01:51 AM by Sylvain »

Florian

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2017, 02:34:35 PM »
Two flowers have opened and both have four petals but no stigma :o





Ilya11

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2017, 03:24:10 PM »
My Prague never had flowers with functional styles.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Florian

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2017, 03:30:29 PM »
Good to know, thanks!

Millet

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2017, 08:51:28 PM »
I wonder if the Prague Citsuma that has incomplete flowers can be "pollinated" with gibbereillic acid the same way clementines are pollinated using gibberellic acid.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 08:53:07 PM by Millet »

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2017, 11:08:10 PM »
From the quick research I've looked into, it seems that Citsuma Prague is most likely a cross between trifoliate and Satsuma mandarin (or less likely a mandarin in the same close category as Satsuma).

I do wonder about crossing Citsuma Prague with 10 degree tangerine, that would be interesting.

Sylvain

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2017, 06:30:32 AM »
Prague is a chimera of a large flowers poncirus (because I saw it) and a mandarin. The kind of mandarin is not known. We speculate that it is a satsuma because it was found in Prague and the fruits are seedless but the rind doesn't easily separate from the pulp (at least it is not so easy as for satsuma).

We can go farther. It is a periclinal chimera because of the leaves patern and a high stability.
The tree is thorny when poncirus are and mandarins are not. This character is carried by the first layer L1. It means the first layer is from Poncirus L1=P.
The fruit is pure mandarin and the leave margin is evergreen, it means the second layer is mandarin: L2=M.
The leaves center changes in autumn which means L3 is poncirus: L3=P.
So it seems that the periclinal chimerism is of the PMP type.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 01:43:34 PM by Sylvain »

Ilya11

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2017, 04:06:09 PM »
It could be interesting to get it on own roots and try to propagate from root cuttings.
In this case layers will be different.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

 

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