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Author Topic: Citsuma Prague  (Read 3490 times)

Sylvain

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #50 on: July 14, 2017, 07:23:32 PM »
Yes I already thought that. It eliminates the L1 if I remember well.
To root cuttings must not be difficult. I shall do it.
What seems harder is to recreate a plant starting from roots only...
I have seen it many times append naturally but never did it in purpose.

If I am right we might obtain a copy PMP or a very near form MMP (without thorns!).
The MMP could be less cold hardy than PMP.
I don't know from which layer the new L1 is created...

Tomorrow I shall start rooting many  cuttings... :-)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 05:00:10 AM by Sylvain »

Sylvain

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2017, 09:15:53 AM »
Quote
Tomorrow I shall start rooting many  cuttings...
Done.

Quote
If I am right we might obtain a copy PMP or a very near form MMP (without thorns!).
The MMP could be less cold hardy than PMP.
I don't know from which layer the new L1 is created...
From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC160199/pdf/041089.pdf It seems that the shoots are made of F2 or F3.
It means we should obtain MMM and PPP.
No MMP without thorns.  :'(

Ilya11

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2017, 01:25:30 PM »
Original L1 will be lost in root cuttings, in most cases it will be replaced by cells from L3, but it could also come from former L2, so MMP at least theoretically is possible. Since Prague is occasionally giving pure poncirus shoots, it is not entirely stabilized periclinal chimera, probably L2 does contain some proportion of poncirus cells.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Sylvain

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2017, 06:43:58 PM »
Thank you Ilya, very interesting. So we have some chance to obtain something new!  :)
We shall see in two years. One to root the cuttings and one to grow the roots adventices.

nicolasm

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #54 on: August 05, 2017, 01:26:51 AM »
Hi,
i'm an invidicual breeder interested by chimera, so i've came across the Cistuma Prague. Hope i can get a plant this fall and start playing with it. I'm new to citrus as i want only trees that could be planted on my property (-15C min), so Prague seems to be able to make the deal :)

My hypothesis is that Prague is a SSP chimera (L1/L2 satsuma and L3 poncirus).

L3 : Rose/Blackberry thorns are from L1 but this is a different kind of thorns. "Studying" different chimeras between medlar and hawthorn, i came to the conclusion that spines are from L3. To test this hypothesis, one could root Prague, and make a root cutting to root. The plant should be all L3 and thus should be poncirus.

L2 : Seeds are from F2. As Prague seems to carry few seeds, it would lead to S2 = satsuma. Seedlings should be pure sastuma.
Also L2 + L3 gives leaf form, so if both L2 and L3 where poncirus, i guess leaves would be trifoliate.

L1 : Fruit juice is L1, so from taste it is Satsuma

To my knowledge there is no way to try to mix layers of the chimera to try to get new layer associations

Ilya11

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #55 on: August 05, 2017, 05:01:09 AM »
To test this hypothesis, one could root Prague, and make a root cutting to root. The plant should be all L3 and thus should be poncirus.
As i wrote above, in most of the cases in root cuttings L1 will be replaced by L3 cells that are very invasive, but it could be  also be formed by the cells from the former L2 that are present in the roots.
L2 : Seeds are from F2. As Prague seems to carry few seeds, it would lead to S2 = satsuma. Seedlings should be pure sastuma.
Also L2 + L3 gives leaf form, so if both L2 and L3 where poncirus, i guess leaves would be trifoliate.
Sylvain demonstrated that fruits and seedlings are pure satsuma
Leaves are formed by all three layers, with L1 forming a leaf margin, this explains the fact that Prague have a very particular foliage.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Sylvain

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #56 on: August 05, 2017, 07:44:52 AM »
Quote
"Studying" different chimeras between medlar and hawthorn, i came to the conclusion that spines are from L3.
Could you give the source of what makes you think so?
Because from what I read  the Crateagomespilus chimera is of the type  crateagus/mespilus/mespilus. It is thorny and the thorns come from crateagus (L1).
https://books.google.fr/books?id=ZVdoUPtqKCIC&pg=PA190&lpg=PA190&dq=Crataegomespilus+origin+of+thorns&source=bl&ots=9Vhk-EzVs9&sig=VPhgI6_t7w53XJ2754bhK7kKETA&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9o6ez-7_VAhVDaVAKHYgRAZs4ChDoAQgoMAA#v=onepage&q=Crataegomespilus%20origin%20of%20thorns&f=false
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 08:53:55 AM by Sylvain »

Sylvain

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #57 on: August 05, 2017, 11:11:00 AM »
Quote
Fruit juice is L1.
Could you give your sources. Please.

In "The citrus  industry" I found few lines going in that way, but it's old (1968):
Quote
In Japan, two citrus forms considered to be synthetic periclinal chimeras have been in existence for some fifty years (Samura and Nakahara, 1928; Takahashi, 1962).   The Kobayashi Mikan is recorded as having arisen at the junction where a satsuma scion was grafted onto Natsudaidai.   This scion was accidently [sic] broken off at its base, after which two adventitious buds emerged, one of which grew into the original chimeral tree.   This chimera produces fruit with rind like Natsudaidai, but with flesh like satsuma.   It is seedy, and seedlings from one fruit were reported to be Natsudaidai (Dr. Yuishiro Tanaka, unpublished).   In this chimera, histogenic Layer II appears to be genetically Natsudaidai, while Layer I should be satsuma.
and
Quote
It appears that a mutant color factor is present in the Thompson in histogenic Layer I; this layer provides at least part of the cells of the juice vesicles

If it is confirmed we could be in presence of MMP as you say.

It means that among the roots adventices we might find many PMP and few MMP. Just the same as if the origin is PMP, because the L1 is dropped off.
In the first hypothesis (PMP) the majority should be identical to the origin and in the second  hypothesis (MMP) the majority should be different from the origin.

The suspense is unbearable!...  ;)

And indeed if the truth is "It seems that the shoots are made of F2 or F3." we shall obtain many poncirus and few mandarines...
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 12:07:03 PM by Sylvain »

nicolasm

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #58 on: August 05, 2017, 02:19:11 PM »
Source of L1 = juice :
Quote
In the citrus fruit, the first germ layer L1 produces
the juice sacs of the fruit and the epidermis of the
pericarp, while L2 produces seeds, segment walls, the
hypoderm and the mesocarp of the pericarp, and L3
the vascular bundles (Cameron et al., 1964; Fost &
Krug, 1942; Kuhara, 1988).

Interactions between different genotypic tissues in citrus graft chimeras
Jinmei Zhou et  al.

Quote
It means that among the roots adventices we might find many PMP and few MMP. Just the same as if the origin is PMP, because the L1 is dropped off.
In the first hypothesis (PMP) the majority should be identical to the origin and in the second  hypothesis (MMP) the majority should be different from the origin.

I dont understand your phrase. Root tissue is pure L3 in trees (unlike in some rhizomes and some other cases) so any root adventices should be pure poncirus.

Sylvain

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #59 on: August 05, 2017, 06:58:44 PM »
Well, it seems that only L1 is lost in the root. That means that L2 and L3 are present.
Do you agree with that?

And thank you for L1 = juice. Very interesting.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 05:41:15 AM by Sylvain »

nicolasm

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #60 on: August 06, 2017, 02:54:51 AM »
For L1 = juice i'm not so sure.
It seems that L1 is juice sac. I think juice is mostly L1 but can be somewhat modified by other layers (like sugar and acidity level, quoted in the paper). Maybe L2 = satsuma is important to be as close as possible to satsuma flavor. But color of rind and juice is L1, so i guess it is sure that L1 is satsuma (i let you confirm, as i'm a complete beginner with citsuma, satsuma and poncirus).

I guess that when you say F2 and F3 it means L2 and L3. Unfortunatly tree roots are pure L3. Other layers are present when roots are not true root but modified organs (blackberry, potatoes, mint...)

Ilya11

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #61 on: August 06, 2017, 06:51:01 AM »
It is important to note that we do not have the original Citsuma , but  only grafted plants.
The rooted stem cuttings could produce roots either directly from cambium cells (L3) or from callus  that potentially could involve cells from any layer.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Sylvain

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #62 on: August 06, 2017, 09:40:06 AM »
After one day of research, in "Breeding For Ornamentals: Classical and Molecular Approaches" I found:



Notice the "without exception"!

nicolasm

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #63 on: August 06, 2017, 03:14:29 PM »
It is important to note that we do not have the original Citsuma , but  only grafted plants.
The rooted stem cuttings could produce roots either directly from cambium cells (L3) or from callus  that potentially could involve cells from any layer.

What i've understood is that root tissue is L3, not that it comes from cambium (L3).

Ilya11

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #64 on: August 06, 2017, 06:12:32 PM »
All three embryonal layers in higher plants are pluripotent. They are able to generate callus and it  is giving  both stems and roots. In this case, roots are not necessary belong to original L3.
Moreover, while L1 is quite stable, L2 and L3 are constantly invading each other.  This explains uneven margin in decorative albino chimeras (L1=green, L2=albino, L3=green)
https://uwaterloo.ca/biology/sites/ca.biology/files/uploads/files/Lecture%207%20for%20students.pdf.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

 

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