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Author Topic: hybrids with precocious Poncirus  (Read 1679 times)

mikkel

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hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« on: May 25, 2017, 02:18:38 PM »
Did anybody use precocious Poncirus for  creating hybrids?
I try to cultivate it since some years but it is very sensitive for me. So I haven`t seen a flower yet.
I am interested if some offspring is showing the precocious trait.

Thanks!

SoCal2warm

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2017, 10:14:57 PM »
Perhaps a little off-topic here -
In my belief, there are other citrus that are better candidates for hybridization than Poncirus, because, while Poncirus is very cold-hardy, it always seems to confer its bitterness and less-than-pleasant taste to its hybrids.
For trying to breed cold-hardy hybrids, the better candidates to use would be Yuzu, Ichang papeda, Ichang lemon (kind of rare), and possibly to a lesser extent C. taiwanica. (Kumquat hybrids also exist but I wouldn't describe them as extremely cold tolerant)

Despite oversimplified presumptions, Yuzu and Ichang lemon are not descendants from the Ichang papeda, although they very likely did come from some unknown papeda that, although no longer surviving, was probably very similar to Ichang papeda. I would view Yuzu (Yuzu is the Japanese name) and Ichang lemons as siblings. Not that they necessarily came from the same particular parent plant of course, but they both are known to have originated from the Southern highlands of China, and very likely from the same type of papeda, so they retain the cold-hardy genes from this papeda ancestor. (In fact I somewhat suspect Ichang papeda may not truly be pure papeda but may be a naturalized hybrid between Yuzu and the original papeda species, but this speculation would be controversial and not really well supported)

I believe that even if hybrids between these citrus do not immediately manifest their cold-hardiness, it is possible second generation offspring may, and this is worthwhile to investigate. (For example, even if a Yuzu x pomelo hybrid does not possess any remarkable cold tolerance, further F2 hybridizing with a mandarin may lead to something that does have remarkable cold tolerance, more than the mandarin parent)

Millet

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2017, 11:17:17 PM »
In using the precocious poncirus, I don't think mikkel's is looking for cold hardiness (which he will get), but I believe he is trying to hybridize for early flowering.

mikkel

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2017, 02:34:21 AM »
In my belief, there are other citrus that are better candidates for hybridization than Poncirus, because, while Poncirus is very cold-hardy, it always seems to confer its bitterness and less-than-pleasant taste to its hybrids.

Not always. There is a Poncirus x ichang Papeda hybrid called N1tri with no trace of Poncirus taste.
Even pure Poncirus can produce poncirin free fruits e.g. Poncirus Nikita/Swamp Lemon . Ilya mentioned another one if I remember right.
I think it is just luck to find these plants. If mass selection would be possible with Citrus there would be surely more interesting to find.
That is why I am after the early flowering trait. It makes it more possible to handle a lot of hybrid offspring.

Ilya11

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2017, 04:32:06 AM »
I was trying already for three seasons to use it as a pollen parent, but failed up to now.
This spring all fruits (10) of FD pollinated by 1y PT aborted after two weeks.
Several fruits of 5* citrumelo are still there, hope they will survive until autumn.
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                       Ilya

mikkel

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2017, 06:44:07 AM »
Good luck and fingers crossed!
Crossbreeding with normal Poncirus or even Nikita would be my first choise too.
I also was thinking about a cross with another precocious Citrus like the fals M.papuana just to higher the chance to get a new precocious hybrid for further breeding.

Florian

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2017, 08:58:43 AM »
I have seven precocious Poncirus seedlings here and if they really do flower after only a few years I will try to cross them with other citrus, too. If the early flowering could be transferred to the offspring, this would save us many years.

No one really knows what happens after the F1, so hybrids with Yuzu or other parents may indeed result in hardier offspring somehow, somewhere down the road.. but for now, I regard C. ichangensis or N1Tri as the most promising parents other than Poncirus because neither Yuzu nor Ichang lemon come even close in terms of coldhardiness (there are, admittedly, wimps among C. ichangensis as well but I have not seen any Yuzu survive anything lower than -15C).

Ilya11

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2017, 03:29:25 PM »
I do not have yet personal experience in the fruit quality of backcrosses of F1 poncirus hybrids to conventional citruses, but from the taste of leaves of few thousands of such plants can conclude that most of them do not have poncirus aftertaste.
For me, the link between this taste and hardiness is largely a myth.
The hardiness is disappearing more slowly than the bad taste of leaves.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

mikkel

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2017, 06:11:19 PM »
backcrossing always works. in trees as in annuals, all you need is an amount of generations and enough offspring to do selection. and here we are again at the point where to find a good source of precociousness.
I almost gave up on precocoious poncirus / 1yr Poncirus. It attracted all kind of diseases here and showed no growth. No flower after 2 years of waiting. Obviously it doesn`t likes me.

I hope to find other varieties. Anybody knows if the false M.papuana is precocious like the true one?

Ilya11

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2017, 04:04:52 AM »
It is growing much better if grafted on normal poncirus.
According to this article
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jsbbs1951/36/2/36_2_138/_pdf
early flowering is determined by recessive gene and needs  inbreeding for full expression.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

mikkel

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2017, 05:56:19 AM »
a recessive trait is bad. It means 1 generation extra for selfing and selecting in each cross.
http://passel.unl.edu/Image/siteImages/BCtraitrecessivewheatLG.gif







SoCal2warm

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2017, 12:10:14 AM »
I regard C. ichangensis or N1Tri as the most promising parents other than Poncirus because neither Yuzu nor Ichang lemon come even close in terms of coldhardiness (there are, admittedly, wimps among C. ichangensis as well but I have not seen any Yuzu survive anything lower than -15C).
I'm going to have to disagree with your logic (at least partially). True, Yuzu is not as hardy as Poncirus or C. ichangensis, but it still holds the cold hardy genes from its papeda ancestor. The fact that Yuzu is not as hardy is irreverent. Yuzu is not an original species, it is a hybrid. Sure you could breed Poncirus with, say an orange, but you'd probably have to make another cross to get something very edible. That's not the case with Yuzu, since Yuzu is much further on the spectrum towards edibility than Poncirus. What I'm saying is it might take 1 or 2 generations of hybridizations with Yuzu to get something very edible, whereas with Poncirus it might take 2 or 3. And by that time the cold hardiness might be diluted down to the same level as a Yuzu hybrid.

How do I explain this? To some extent, when it comes to hybrids there's a trade-off between cold hardiness and edibility. Yuzu might not really be edible itself, but it's infinitely more edible than Poncirus. Since you already have this degree of suitability for eating built in, you're not really necessarily losing anything by starting off with Yuzu. Think of it this way, you've already done the first cross in your breeding sequence, you decided to cross an extremely cold hardy papeda species with sour mandarin, and what you got was something called Yuzu. Now you're going to make the next cross.

If you think you're going to be able to cross Poncirus with some other citrus in just one cross to get something amazing you're delusional.
(You might have better luck with C. ichangensis but I still wouldn't be too optimistic)
It's going to take successive series of breeding, at least 2 generations of crosses, maybe 3.

Now of course there are a number arguments and points that can be made to the contrary, but I'm just conveying my line of reasoning here.

Ilya11

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2017, 09:31:03 AM »
From what I read recently, Yuzu is not a hybrid in a sense that it is F1 cross of something to something.
Its selfed seedlings are very uniform, even monoebryonal ones.
For me, it is a specie apart and certainly, it is less hardy than poncirus.
If you compare its utility as a starting point for winter resistance, there are already much better tasting cold hardy poncirus derivatives.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2017, 09:35:34 AM by Ilya11 »
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                       Ilya

SoCal2warm

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2017, 01:09:16 PM »
From what I read recently, Yuzu is not a hybrid in a sense that it is F1 cross of something to something.
Its selfed seedlings are very uniform, even monoebryonal ones.
For me, it is a specie apart and certainly, it is less hardy than poncirus.
That is certainly a good point, I had not thought about it from that perspective. I suppose there are several questions to be asked. How cold hardy was the original papeda species ancestor of Yuzu exactly? We will likely never know. What portion of the original cold hardy genes does Yuzu still retain? How much is influenced by other genes (presumably from sour mandarin) that make Yuzu more cold vulnerable than it would otherwise be? If it's a matter of this, these genes could potentially be bred out in successive generations. Does Yuzu have any unique genes that contribute to cold hardiness that are not found in Poncirus? If so, Yuzu lineage may still be of special value. Yet another question is whether Yuzu has anything unique about it to set it apart from Ichang papeda, or whether it is, essentially basically just a watered down version of Ichang papeda when it comes to trying to breed citrus with desirable properties.

If you compare its utility as a starting point for winter resistance, there are already much better tasting cold hardy poncirus derivatives.
I'm not sure about that. In the Japanese history of citrus breeding, Yuzu had great utility in breeding cold hardy citrus varieties, although this was often inadvertent it seems.

Ilya11

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2017, 01:26:06 PM »
You last point is correct, Japanese breeders used Yuzu in many crosses, but I know only one variety from this lineage -Hanyu that is more hardy than its parent. And it is probably due to tachibana genes in it.
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                       Ilya

Florian

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2017, 02:07:42 AM »
I regard C. ichangensis or N1Tri as the most promising parents other than Poncirus because neither Yuzu nor Ichang lemon come even close in terms of coldhardiness (there are, admittedly, wimps among C. ichangensis as well but I have not seen any Yuzu survive anything lower than -15C).
I'm going to have to disagree with your logic (at least partially). True, Yuzu is not as hardy as Poncirus or C. ichangensis, but it still holds the cold hardy genes from its papeda ancestor. The fact that Yuzu is not as hardy is irreverent. Yuzu is not an original species, it is a hybrid. Sure you could breed Poncirus with, say an orange, but you'd probably have to make another cross to get something very edible. That's not the case with Yuzu, since Yuzu is much further on the spectrum towards edibility than Poncirus. What I'm saying is it might take 1 or 2 generations of hybridizations with Yuzu to get something very edible, whereas with Poncirus it might take 2 or 3. And by that time the cold hardiness might be diluted down to the same level as a Yuzu hybrid.

How do I explain this? To some extent, when it comes to hybrids there's a trade-off between cold hardiness and edibility. Yuzu might not really be edible itself, but it's infinitely more edible than Poncirus. Since you already have this degree of suitability for eating built in, you're not really necessarily losing anything by starting off with Yuzu. Think of it this way, you've already done the first cross in your breeding sequence, you decided to cross an extremely cold hardy papeda species with sour mandarin, and what you got was something called Yuzu. Now you're going to make the next cross.

If you think you're going to be able to cross Poncirus with some other citrus in just one cross to get something amazing you're delusional.
(You might have better luck with C. ichangensis but I still wouldn't be too optimistic)
It's going to take successive series of breeding, at least 2 generations of crosses, maybe 3.

Now of course there are a number arguments and points that can be made to the contrary, but I'm just conveying my line of reasoning here.

I didn't mean to imply that F1 crosses with Poncirus could suddenly turn out edible, you are certainly right. Nonetheless, anything less hardy than Yuzu is going to be too weak for my climate.

Crosses with N1Tri could be the way to go here since the off-flavours are eliminated. However, from what I've read its offspring is mostly feeble and weak, seeds only germinate very erratically.

But this topic was about precocious Poncirus.. When my seedlings flower I will try to cross them with everything I have and who knows what happens then.. N1Tri x Pt = ultra hardy and still no poncirine / bitterness..? 
And yes, I know, this is just wild thinking.

Ilya11

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2017, 03:52:50 AM »
It could help a lot to have rapidly maturing citrus, but  I do not think that "1y" PT is a good source to achieve it.
It is actually deviating us from the goal of producing good quality hardy hybrids.
Top grafting of seedling budwood on vigorous rootstock  is permitting to have first flowering in 3-5  years that is quite reasonable.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

mikkel

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2017, 07:40:34 AM »
Top grafting of seedling budwood on vigorous rootstock  is permitting to have first flowering in 3-5  years that is quite reasonable.

Do you have experience with it? I just read a book of Mitchurin he is strongly denying this method. I have no experence with this method and I don`t know if Mitchurin was right. Would be good to find out or hear some experiences.

I recently had conversation with Malcolm Smith from Bundaberg about precociousness. He told me that precociousness even from C.wakonai is strongly diluted after just a few generations by crossing with mandarins. Even with strong selection for it.
I conclude it isn`t probably a monogenetic trait and needs strong inbreeding to keep the precocious trait. 1yr Poncirus might be the same or different, but it isn`t a dominant trait at all.

He suggested the use of C.wintersii/M.papuana as a substitute for C.wakonai even if it is of hybrid offspring. With selfing/inbreeding one could stabilize the precocious trait and go then for hybrids with other Citrus. But one would need a huge number of seedlings.
As C.wintersii needs 2-3 years until its first flower it takes probaly longer time than with C.wakonai but it is in reach.

Just spinning around I would go for a hybrid of C.wintersii with 1yr Poncirus (if possible) just to see what happens.
I am looking for a seed source for C.wintersii since 2 years but couldn`t find one.  1yr Poncirus is suffering several diseases. So I can`t test this croos until now.

@SoCal2warm N1tri is a hybrid of Ichang Papeda and  Poncirus. It has almost lost all off tastes of Poncirus and Ichang Papeda so hardiest parentage and itself is quite hardy. For me it is a good F1 hybrid to do further breeding.
I have some vigourous hybrid seedlings and some weak ones of it.
But I will go for Yuzu too. These days I have the first flowers of it.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 01:17:12 PM by mikkel »

Ilya11

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2017, 01:46:33 PM »
Top grafting of seedling budwood on vigorous rootstock  is permitting to have first flowering in 3-5  years that is quite reasonable.

Do you have experience with it? I just read a book of Mitchurin he is strongly denying this method. I have no experence with this method and I don`t know if Mitchurin was right. Would be good to find out or hear some experiences.


Japanese breeders are using this method for years. You can produce a strong large plant ready for  flowering very rapidly.
My Citrumelo 5* x Meyer hybrid, 5 years in ground, no flowers yet:


 Its 3 year old graft  on Swingle roots:


This spring flowers:


In ground 3 year old graft of 5*xKeraji non mature seedling from 2012 pollination  on 5* roots , 10 flowers as of today:




 
@SoCal2warm N1tri is a hybrid of Ichang Papeda and  Poncirus. It has almost lost all off tastes of Poncirus and Ichang Papeda and is quite hardy. For me it is a good F1 hybrid to do further breeding.
I have some vigourous seedlings and some weak ones.
But I would go for Yuzu too. These days I have the first flowers of it.


I do not believe that N1tri  is a direct hybrid between Poncirus and ichangensis, practically no trifoliate leaves and it is not particularly  hardy.
Less than 5* and Ichangquat 6-7-2, close to Thomasville in most  winters  here.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

mikkel

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2017, 03:46:35 PM »
Thanks! That is quite impressive!
How do you get these mature rootstocks? Are these grafts of mature varieties on a rootstock?

I have seedlings of N1tri showing partly trifoliate leaves. i can not prove it is a true hybrid. but I was told by Bernhard Voss the breeder it is originating from the same fruit as an other ichang Papeda x Poncirus hybrid (sometimes called n2tri) a  hybrid with both mono- and trifoliate leaves. N2tri is growing on its own roots in B.Voss garden.
I read in czech forums that their N1tri is hardy down til -18°C and some plants have round fruits. Mine have pear shaped fruits and I doubt they are hardy like that.
My impression is there is maybe some confusion about it as with other varieties from B.Voss and different varieties are traded under this name. i can`t prove it. -18°C I can only imagine for N2tri.
I will sow some more seeds of it.

Here is wht B.Voss wrote about it
N15    c.ichangensis x trifoliata    N2-tri Voß   -15   Laubabwerfende, trioliate, intermediäre Hybride, sehr interessant
                                                                          decidous, trifoliate hybrid
N16    c.ichangensis x trifoliata     N1-tri Voß   -12    In der Jugendphase trifoliater Sämling, adult monofoliat, immergrün, Frucht birnenförmig, nicht sehr saftig, Zitronenaroma, Zygote Sämlinge!
                                                                                   trifoliate seedling, monofoliate when adult, evergreen, pearshaped fruit,
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 04:17:33 PM by mikkel »

mikkel

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2017, 03:49:50 PM »
Another question, are there  differences in leave shape and other phenotypics between the hybrids on its own roots and the grafted ones?

Sylvain

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2017, 05:16:56 PM »
Mikkel,

> He suggested the use of C.wintersii/M.papuana as a substitute for C.wakonai even if it is of hybrid offspring. With selfing/inbreeding one could stabilize the precocious trait and go then for hybrids with other Citrus.
What arguments Malcom S. gave to prefer C. wintersi to C. wakonai?

Ilya11

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2017, 05:29:25 PM »
Mikkel,
The rootstocks were non mature seedlings , but large size, with stem of approximately 1 cm  of diameter. This permitted a rapid growth. Such rootstocks are easily available in Spain.
I suspect that Voss Ntri hybrids are from non controlled open pollination by some trifoliate hybrid.
All F1 poncirus derivatives that I have seen were nearly 100% trifoliates.
N1tri starts to show a damage already at -9C, but mostly at the ends of new growth. It has very sparse fructification, many flowers are without pistils. Fruits are rather small, pear shaped, resemble small lemons.


Best regards,
                       Ilya

Ilya11

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2017, 05:33:44 PM »
Another question, are there  differences in leave shape and other phenotypics between the hybrids on its own roots and the grafted ones?
They have smaller spines and larger leaves, especially toward the fruiting branches.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

mikkel

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2017, 03:13:25 AM »
Mikkel,

> He suggested the use of C.wintersii/M.papuana as a substitute for C.wakonai even if it is of hybrid offspring. With selfing/inbreeding one could stabilize the precocious trait and go then for hybrids with other Citrus.
What arguments Malcom S. gave to prefer C. wintersi to C. wakonai?

Simply. It is not available.

mikkel

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2017, 03:32:38 AM »
I suspect that Voss Ntri hybrids are from non controlled open pollination by some trifoliate hybrid.
All F1 poncirus derivatives that I have seen were nearly 100% trifoliates.
N1tri starts to show a damage already at -9C, but mostly at the ends of new growth. It has very sparse fructification, many flowers are without pistils. Fruits are rather small, pear shaped, resemble small lemons.

It might be a pollination by a trifoliate hybrid. I`ll keep an eye on this topic.
My N1tri are very good bloomer for me, haven`t seen sterile flowers so far. They are beside Ichang Papedas my best fruiting plants.
Fruits are small and pearshaped like yours, it should be the same clone like yours. -9°C is what I expected.


Another question, are there  differences in leave shape and other phenotypics between the hybrids on its own roots and the grafted ones?
They have smaller spines and larger leaves, especially toward the fruiting branches.
the grafted ones?
Mitchurin wrote that grafted apple seedlings and the same seedling on its own roots develope in different ways. So different that one wouldn`t suspect the same variety. Fruits are very different from each other. After him a wild rootstock change the hybrid more in the direction of the wild species.
I am wondering if this can be true.

Topgrafting sounds interesting.

Sylvain

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2017, 12:30:13 PM »
Mikkel,

> He suggested the use of C.wintersii/M.papuana as a substitute for C.wakonai even if it is of hybrid offspring. With selfing/inbreeding one could stabilize the precocious trait and go then for hybrids with other Citrus.
What arguments Malcom S. gave to prefer C. wintersi to C. wakonai?

Simply. It is not available.
It depends for who.

Sylvain

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2017, 12:33:19 PM »
My C. wintersii are not of hybrid offspring.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 12:53:24 PM by Sylvain »

Millet

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2017, 12:38:16 PM »
Ilya 11  concerning the tall tree growing in the small round pot (the second picture)   That is a classic example of growth by a  root bound tree.  When a container tree's root system fills the container becoming root bound, the growth shoots straight up, like toothpaste squeezed out of the tube.

Ilya11

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2017, 01:15:47 PM »
Millet,
It is in a root pruning container.
Its small size favors the induction of flowers because of low ratio of root/branch volumes.
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                       Ilya

mikkel

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2017, 03:25:15 PM »
Mikkel,

> He suggested the use of C.wintersii/M.papuana as a substitute for C.wakonai even if it is of hybrid offspring. With selfing/inbreeding one could stabilize the precocious trait and go then for hybrids with other Citrus.
What arguments Malcom S. gave to prefer C. wintersi to C. wakonai?

Simply. It is not available.
It depends for who.

Is it meant as offensive as it sounds?
I know you have it and I asked you twice for it. As I always got no answer when it comes to this matter I can not say it is available as it is not for me and for others. As you posted by yourself.
I don`t want to overestimate this but I feel a bit offended. Do I get you wrong?

Sylvain

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2017, 05:27:19 AM »
> I don`t want to overestimate this but I feel a bit offended. Do I get you wrong
Yes completely wrong.

Where did you ask me? On a forum or by mail?
I cannot speak freely on this forum. I have already been censored.
It's why my answers are so short and abstruse.
It is better if you contact me by mail.

mikkel

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2017, 04:42:36 PM »
> I don`t want to overestimate this but I feel a bit offended. Do I get you wrong
Yes completely wrong.

Where did you ask me? On a forum or by mail?
I cannot speak freely on this forum. I have already been censored.
It's why my answers are so short and abstruse.
It is better if you contact me by mail.

Okay. Sorry for my post and thank you for your reply!

mikkel

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2017, 05:00:51 AM »
@Sylvain
Did you get my message? I can not find it again, maybe something went wrong...

Sylvain

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2017, 11:32:02 AM »
No, I received no mail.
Where did you try? In PM here or on the French forum or in my personal email?

mikkel

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2017, 12:04:45 PM »
No, I received no mail.
Where did you try? In PM here or on the French forum or in my personal email?
Here. Via the email button. I try it on the french forum. Somehow it will work :)

 

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