Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers



Author Topic: breeding - what can I do with citron  (Read 542 times)

SoCal2warm

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
breeding - what can I do with citron
« on: June 26, 2017, 11:53:55 PM »
Does anyone have any ideas on what I could do with Etrog citron in terms of breeding?
I have flying dragon poncirus trifoliate and some changsha mandarin seeds. I'm interested in breeding a cold hardy lemon—a true lemon in the sense that it will have citron in its ancestry.

maybe (citron x poncirus) x changsha ?


Common lemons, in case anyone didn't know, are hybrids between citron and sour orange (basically)

SoCal2warm

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: breeding - what can I do with citron
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2017, 12:07:54 AM »
kind of off topic but an interesting observation I found posted by someone in another forum:

Rez Zircon

"I've seen lemons grown from seed (random grocery lemons) survive Montana winters. I've heard of one that bore lots of fruit, growing unprotected at that, in Bozeman MT where winter temps routinely hit -30. An orange-grower friend tells me the trick to hardy citrus is own-root, not grafted stock."

"Yeah, we planted lemon seeds outdoors in Great Falls MT -- this was back around 1970 -- and they never got more than a foot tall, but seemed to have no problem surviving, and this was back in the era of really hard winters. I left in 1972 but my sister says they were still alive when my mom moved out of that house a few years later.

They lost their leaves in winter, just like any ordinary deciduous tree, and the little trunks did survive and re-leaf in spring.

Seeds were from random grocery lemons, whatever seeds were already sprouted when we cut one open. I think this started when we ran out of pots to grow 'em as houseplants.

It's been many years since I've seen a storebought citrus with sprouted seeds inside it, and now I wonder how that might relate to hardiness."

https://permies.com/t/20777/Cold-hardy-citrus-trees

Millet

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2249
    • Colorado
    • View Profile
Re: breeding - what can I do with citron
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2017, 09:42:44 PM »
A lemon surviving -30 F unprotected, that is very difficult for me to believe.

SoCal2warm

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: breeding - what can I do with citron
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2017, 01:55:31 AM »
Well I ordered a Citrumelo (poncirus x Duncan grapefruit). Maybe I can cross citron with that.
It could only improve the taste of the Citrumelo. haha  ;D

Citradia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
    • USA/NC/Old Fort/6B
    • View Profile
Re: breeding - what can I do with citron
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2017, 08:56:55 PM »
I lost a 10 ft tall swingle citrumelo and all my other trifoliate hybrids with the polar vortex events a few years ago, and they were protected with leaves packed around them in wire cages and plastic wind blocks. I've lost several Dunstan citrumelos over the years too with various levels of protection. I lost a pink grapefruit seeding from grocery fruit this year after it died to ground and came back last year in high tunnel for protection. Breeding regular lemon or any other citrus with a citrumelo is not going to make it survive Montana. I wouldn't try to leave s lemon tree outside in North Carolina unprotected because it would die. Ichang Lemons die here very well too. Montana. Might as well stick a seedling lemon tree in the freezer and take it out after 6 months and see how it does.

Citradia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
    • USA/NC/Old Fort/6B
    • View Profile
Re: breeding - what can I do with citron
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2017, 09:04:39 PM »
Socal2warm, have you tasted a citrumelo? I actually like swingle; tastes like a lemon, sour, but to me it's a lemon. They are sour. Dunstan to me tastes like an old fashioned white grapefruit, not offensive, but a bonified bitter grapefruit. Wouldn't win a taste test with ruby red, but if I can get one to live and bloom and mature fruit here, I would be thrilled. I've not tasted a citron, but from I've read about them, they are not good quality fruit with little pulp; I think you'd be taking a step backwards if breeding citrumelo with citron.

SoCal2warm

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: breeding - what can I do with citron
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2017, 04:29:07 PM »
Etrog citron seed sprouting



I don't think breeding with citron is "taking a step backwards". After all, citron is the ancestor of modern-day lemon, and, while it doesn't have a lot of pulp inside, the fruit of the citron is very fragrant. Citron fruits can be pretty big too.

Another advantage? Being an original species, citrons produce all zygotic seeds. Edit: after looking it up, it apparently 50-60 percent of the seeds in citron are zygotic.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 07:30:27 PM by SoCal2warm »

SoCal2warm

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: breeding - what can I do with citron
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2017, 06:20:43 PM »
lemon seedlings




It's not easy to grow from seed. You have to know several things about how to do it. That being said, lemon seems easier to grow from seed than the others.

mrtexas

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 262
    • USA, Sugarland,TX 9B
    • View Profile
    • MrTexasCitrus
Re: breeding - what can I do with citron
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2017, 06:33:58 PM »
Socal2warm, have you tasted a citrumelo? I actually like swingle; tastes like a lemon, sour, but to me it's a lemon. They are sour. Dunstan to me tastes like an old fashioned white grapefruit, not offensive, but a bonified bitter grapefruit. Wouldn't win a taste test with ruby red, but if I can get one to live and bloom and mature fruit here, I would be thrilled. I've not tasted a citron, but from I've read about them, they are not good quality fruit with little pulp; I think you'd be taking a step backwards if breeding citrumelo with citron.

How many packs of cigarettes do you smoke a day? IMHO swingle is the worst tasting grapefruit ever tasting like battery acid.

Citradia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
    • USA/NC/Old Fort/6B
    • View Profile
Re: breeding - what can I do with citron
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2017, 09:18:17 PM »
I tasted swingle at McKinzie Farms in SC several years ago. To me it looked like a large lemon and tasted like a bitter lemon. To me, lemons are bitter, and I don't want to eat one like an orange; that's any lemon. Lemons are for pies and lemonade. Sure, there are better, sweeter lemons/ citrus to eat, but to me to see a citrus tree growing and producing anything better than trifoliata in north central SC, even if it's bitter, is an absolute miracle to behold. This coming from someone born and raised in Bradenton, FL, the home of Tropicana.  Dunstan citrumelo to me tastes like an old fashioned white bitter grapefruit that I would not eat as a child in Bradenton, but would watch grandpa eat every morning.

SoCal2warm

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: breeding - what can I do with citron
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2017, 10:56:46 PM »
That's why I'm thinking if I crossed Dunstan citrumelo with citron I might get something very similar to a lemon -- albeit one that's a lot more cold-hardy.

Citradia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
    • USA/NC/Old Fort/6B
    • View Profile
Re: breeding - what can I do with citron
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2017, 07:45:31 PM »
Good luck with your efforts with citron and Dunstan, SoCal2warm! It will be interesting to hear about your results. Maybe your offspring will have interesting leaves, part trifoliate and some unifoliate. May be difficult to test for cold hardiness in south CA though, no?

Florian

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 31
    • Solothurn, Switzerland.
    • View Profile
Re: breeding - what can I do with citron
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2017, 05:58:03 AM »
I'll be happy to send you some seeds for your breeding efforts of my Citrumelo No. 82 as soon as it starts fruiting. It is said to be the best tasting Citrumelo. Personally, I have never tasted it but the fella in the link know his citrus fruits and he says it is far better tasting than any other Citrumelo, including Dunstan. It's a selection by Eisenhut nursery here in Switzerland. Should be worth a try.
Check out this link, it is in French but there are pics;-)
http://www.forum-agrumes.com/viewtopic.php?t=948&p=14736

SoCal2warm

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: breeding - what can I do with citron
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2017, 10:50:10 PM »
Thank you.

The seeds are already sprouting, and have tiny little leaflets. I have two different types of Etrog citron: an unnamed one that I assume is the most common, and Yemeni Giant citron, the latter of which can often get bigger than a pomelo, from pictures I've seen (although it doesn't have any pulp inside).

There are actually many different types of citron, I was surprised when I started doing research.
In China it is known as Xiang Yuan. This is actually the same word as Shangyuan (just a different romanized spelling), which just translates as "fragrant ball". Shangyuan in English circles is most commonly associated with the Chinese citrus known as Ichang Lemon (not to be confused with Ichang papeda). And Chinese citron is not Ichang lemon (I don't think Ichang lemon even has any citron ancestry, unlike the European lemon). It can all be rather confusing.
The Chinese citron is commonly used to make a type of jelly tea. (in fact I have a Chinese friend who offered me some from his refrigerator, now that I remember)

These language misunderstandings can be confusing. When the Japanese first encountered Yuzu during the Tang dynasty, they named it after the Chinese word for pomelo.

Well that's your little world history cultural lesson for the day.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 11:34:59 PM by SoCal2warm »

 

Copyright © Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers