Author Topic: Casearia quinduensis - extinct species for sale at Guaycuyacu...?  (Read 1807 times)

KarenRei

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http://www.guaycuyacu.net/seed_sell.html

Casearea quinduensis   -   RG   Small tree, green fruits almost identical to those of C. obovata

All well and good.  Except:

http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/35350/0

Red List Category & Criteria:   Extinct ver 2.3

Has anyone asked Jim about this before?  Either his ID is wrong (most probable), or he's selling seeds of a species that's thought to be extinct.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 09:51:30 PM by KarenRei »
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fruitlovers

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Re: Casearia quinduensis - extinct species for sale at Guaycuyacu...?
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2018, 07:12:48 AM »
Don't know the answer, but doesn't "extinct" sometimes mean "extinct in the wild"? So if that is correct, then an extinct species could be in private collections.
Following page from USDA seems to give that definition of the word extinct:
from 2015 NAL Glossary (2014)
by United States Department of Agriculture, National Agricultural Library
"extinct species": Those species no longer known to exist after repeated search of the type localities and other known or likely places. Some species may be extinct in the wild but are being preserved by cultivation in gardens or as domesticated animals.
BTW, i think a lot of rare fruit trees are headed in this direction of extinction, but with luck present in some private collections.  Look at this lists i posted of endangered fruit trees (in 2 parts, list was too long to post in only one message):
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=419.msg5030#msg5030
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=420.msg5031#msg5031

« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 07:24:01 AM by fruitlovers »
Oscar

KarenRei

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Re: Casearia quinduensis - extinct species for sale at Guaycuyacu...?
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2018, 08:59:35 AM »
IUCN has two separate categories, "Extinct in the wild", and "Extinct".  This one is listed as simply "Extinct".  See the above link and the categories on the top bar.

I do expect that the most probable answer is that Jim's ID is wrong.  But if it's not, he could be singlehandedly saving a species from extinction. which is just spectacular.

That's BTW one thing in general that I love about people on this forum  :)   All too often as I've been going through old threads I've run into people going out of their way to find species that are rapidly seeing their limited habitats destroyed due to development or agriculture - trees that were only found due to a couple specimens in the wild, in areas bound for destruction.  It may be beyond our capabilities as individuals to prevent global habitat loss, but it warms the heart to see these rare and amazing species being saved.  :)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 09:09:34 AM by KarenRei »
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fruitlovers

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Re: Casearia quinduensis - extinct species for sale at Guaycuyacu...?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2018, 12:48:03 AM »
IUCN has two separate categories, "Extinct in the wild", and "Extinct".  This one is listed as simply "Extinct".  See the above link and the categories on the top bar.

I do expect that the most probable answer is that Jim's ID is wrong.  But if it's not, he could be singlehandedly saving a species from extinction. which is just spectacular.

That's BTW one thing in general that I love about people on this forum  :)   All too often as I've been going through old threads I've run into people going out of their way to find species that are rapidly seeing their limited habitats destroyed due to development or agriculture - trees that were only found due to a couple specimens in the wild, in areas bound for destruction.  It may be beyond our capabilities as individuals to prevent global habitat loss, but it warms the heart to see these rare and amazing species being saved.  :)
I guess it would be very difficult for organizations to know what every single collector has in their collections, and whether a species is really completely extinct. Will ask Jim about this species. It's possible he named it wrong. There are no close by universities or authorities, and he often names things based on his own books and his own best guess at the moment.
Oscar

fruitlovers

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Re: Casearia quinduensis - extinct species for sale at Guaycuyacu...?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2018, 01:53:44 AM »
http://www.guaycuyacu.net/seed_sell.html

Casearea quinduensis   -   RG   Small tree, green fruits almost identical to those of C. obovata

All well and good.  Except:

http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/35350/0

Red List Category & Criteria:   Extinct ver 2.3

Has anyone asked Jim about this before?  Either his ID is wrong (most probable), or he's selling seeds of a species that's thought to be extinct.
OK i asked Jim about this. Here is his answer:
"im not sure about the casearea quinduensis id.  in fact looking now, i
see casearea arborea was collected here, thats probably what i have.
sorry!"
Oscar

KarenRei

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Re: Casearia quinduensis - extinct species for sale at Guaycuyacu...?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2018, 04:16:49 AM »
Okay - disappointing, but not surprising. 

Still not sure it's a match.  We only have the one picture from him:

"Small tree, green fruits almost identical to those of C. obovata"


... but the descriptions I find of C. arborea say:

"Fruits are three-valved capsules that split open to reveal reddish orange seeds"
"All year round the shrubs produce ornamental red fruits that are persistent on the plant."

Oh, hey, found a picture of C. arborea fruit on the Smithsonian website - yeah, it looks nothing like the picture:

http://biogeodb.stri.si.edu/herbarium/species/?spnumber=2356



Also found this, which looks like the Smithsonian pics, and shows the aforementioned three-lobed-splitting behavior:
http://fincaeltigre.blogspot.is/2012/09/wrenching-transition-of-dual-worlds.html


But then again...  Rare Palm Seeds is selling something that looks pretty similar to Jim's as C. arborea:
https://www.rarepalmseeds.com/pix/CasArb.shtml


And Useful Tropical Plants links this Flickr image from C. E. Thomas Paine, which could also be a match:



Meh, IDs are difficult  ;)  I'll just assume for now that it's C. arborea, unless Jim decides otherwise.
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fruitlovers

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Re: Casearia quinduensis - extinct species for sale at Guaycuyacu...?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2018, 05:55:26 AM »
Will send your post to Jim. Might be helpful in getting the right ID. I believe that rarepalmseeds gets seeds from Jim, so they may just be repeating his labeling. I'm more likely to trust how the Smithsonian labels it.
Oscar