Trifoliate graft incompatibilities?

[brian]

Are there any noteworthy incompatibilities with trifoliate orange/FD other than Eureka lemon?  I am trying to clone all of my trees onto these for dwarfing and clay soil reasons.  I don’t know the rootstock for the vast majority of my trees and some are very vigorous when planted in ground-in greenhouse

[brian]

Some reading I've been doing mentions only Eureka and "some mandarins" but no details of those mandarins or how severe the incompatibility is

[Millet]

Bud union typically shows considerable shoulder development, which sometimes leads to compression girdling.  You are correct in that Trifoliate is incompatible with Eureka lemon. Most mandarins perform well for at leas 10 to 15 years but eventually develop bud union cease and decline.  Well adapted to loam, sandy loam, and clay soils. Trifoliate is quite susceptible to drought because roots are shallow, and therefore trees on Trifoliate are quite susceptible to drought.

[brian]

Thanks.  I am okay with reduced lifespan because I can always graft another.  And I have seen considerable union shouldering/"elephant foot" on many of my grafted kumquats from FourWindsGrowers that I have had for years.  Perhaps these are already on poncirus/trifoliate orange?

All of these are Fourwinds kumquats I've had in containers for at least five years.  They have been perfectly healthy, though I expect one day they will decline from this issue.

[Millet]

They all show the typical soldering, but none look close to anything to worry about.  There are many years of the good life in front of them.  They might out live you.

[brian]

Thank you, I assumed this was rather extreme.

[loneroc1]

Howdy Brian,

Traditionally, the Japanese would bridge graft between the PT/FD and the mandarin before the shouldering restricted sap flow excessively.  This was typically done with yuzu scions and would extend the trees' productive lifespan indefinitely.  I'm not sure if other scions would also work.

Given the horticultural skills of the Japanese, they've no doubt created a magical rootstock that eliminates the problem, but the traditional remedy might be just the ticket.   I have several mandarins planted in the ground in my greenhouse and their bud unions look like yours.  I plan on picking up a yuzu in the near future to give the method a shot.

Steve H. USDA zone 3, SW Wisconsin USA

[brian]

Thanks, bridge grafting is a good idea.   I might try this once mine start to look crumpled at the graft. 

[poncirsguy]

Four winds uses C35.  I have a self grafted Fukushu on C35 about 4 years old.  What kumquat do you have

[poncirsguy]

Fukushu on Flying dragon I grafted I think mid august 2020

[lebmung]

Murcott mandarin and its hydrids, Meyer lemon, Kaffir limes mostly with FD, Tahiti lime and others

[Citradia]

Is Changsha mandarin ok to put on flying dragon? Will the rootstock strangle the Changsha eventually?

[Millet]

Citradia, we are talking about mandarins grafted on Flying Dragon. If it does strangle, it might happen in approximately 15 to 20 years,  or longer., or not in your life time. Not much to worry about.

[Pandan]

Howdy Brian,

Traditionally, the Japanese would bridge graft between the PT/FD and the mandarin before the shouldering restricted sap flow excessively.  This was typically done with yuzu scions and would extend the trees' productive lifespan indefinitely.  I'm not sure if other scions would also work.

Steve H. USDA zone 3, SW Wisconsin USA

Hi, being both a citrus AND grafting newbie  - may I ask what you mean by shouldering?
I am thinking of buying some FD seeds and experimenting with grafting with the the coming year.

[lebmung]

Considering that FD to be ready for grafting takes 3 years, and a grafted tree to reach maturity, good production and quality fruit 6-7 years, I would say a life span of 15 years it is not a good return on investment.

[poncirsguy]

Considering that FD to be ready for grafting takes 3 years, and a grafted tree to reach maturity, good production and quality fruit 6-7 years, I would say a life span of 15 years it is not a good return on investment.

What about Poncirus Trifoliata instead of Flying dragon for root stock and tree life expectancy vs time to start producing.  My flying dragons were 19 months old at grafting time.

[TonyinCC]

I don't like trifoliate rootstock and I would rather take my chances with a tree on its own roots.  J.S. Akin used to offer own root citrus for a reason. He told me some just did better on their own roots and also if killed back to the ground by frost would be true to type IF it grows back.
 I think trifoliate exacerbates trace element deficiencies when used as a rootstock aside from visible graft incompatibilities at the union. Maybe hard to prove but that is my suspicion.
 With HLB out there why add one more unnecessary obstacle for trees to overcome?
 If you are going to use a rootstock why not at least try Sugarbelle which has been reported to be tolerant of HLB?

[Millet]

What rootstock a grower uses depends on the type of soil and atmospheric conditions the tree will be growing in. As a general rule, slower growing trees produce higher quality fruit then rapid growing trees. 

[Citradia]

And those of us north of zone 8 need to be able to cover our citrus in winter, therefore needing dwarfing rootstock such as flying dragon.

[Ilya11]

With HLB out there why add one more unnecessary obstacle for trees to overcome?
 If you are going to use a rootstock why not at least try Sugarbelle which has been reported to be tolerant of HLB?

PT is highly tolerant  and even partially resistant for HLB infection.

[vnomonee]

Do graft union issues happen with all grafting techniques? For example a patch bud graft vs a cleft graft

[Oolie]

Do graft union issues happen with all grafting techniques? For example a patch bud graft vs a cleft graft

Yes, due to the variance in caliper.

Don't fret though, as bridge grafting will keep the tree from failing.

[Seanny]

I had a mandarins with worst elephant foot then Brian’s.
Haft of the bark died.
I got rid of it.

[poncirsguy]

My Fukushu kumquat on Flying dragon roots is 4.5 months old since bud expansion.  It is still putting on new growth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDBdiqTHYOU

[Millet]

Many of my trees are grafted upon Flying Dragon (FD).  The oldest one is a 25 year old Cara Cara.  Presently the FD root stock is approximately 1.5 inches wider than the scion all the way around, The tree is now 11-feet tall and 12-feet around, healthy and has been from the original planting.   I have always been a big FD root stock fan.  FD has a long history of producing excellent tasting full size fruit.