Something simpler: Essentially all of my fruits this year have two seeds, a few with three. I only recall them having one seed the prior few years but my memory on this is not 100% by a long shot. Adam has previously identified my tree as Sabara. Is there anything unusual about this?
Maybe they're being pollinated more thoroughly? Miguel's E. calycina used to pop out smaller few-seeded fruits. Since he started hand-pollinating, fruit size and seed-count per fruit has skyrocketed. I'm thinking that's what's going on with your Jabos, but then I'm no expert.
Caesar,
good luck with some of those crosses and techniques you mention...
but my common sense tells me....if such crosses could be done without creating a transgenetic organism, it would have been done already in Brazil!
see if you can find it...I'm assuming it's written in Portuguese?
I bet they used species like, M. cauliflora, M. jaboticaba, M. coronata, M. trunciflora and M. aureana....
I doubt they attempted to hybridize stuff like glazioviana, tenella, cuspidata, dubia, P. edulis.
do you see the point I'm trying to make?
hybridization is not as easy as some might think...when you are considering all of the species that these genera (myrciaria/plinia) have to offer.
I don't know, man. My parent's common sense tells 'em that if exotic fruits were any good, they'd already be well known by now; doesn't mean they're right.
But in all seriousness, I think you're probably right about some of these being impossible, but it can't hurt to try. I've never considered hybridization to be easy business, and the more divergent your chosen species pair, the harder it is to accomplish successfully. But hard is not synonymous with impossible. Let's say there's a one in a thousand chance that a Cambuçá pollinated by Sabará will bear a seeded fruit; then let's say that for every such fruit, there's a one in a hundred chance that the seed could be viable. Those are very long odds, and impractical for most hybridizers; but for every enthusiast who has the patience and all the time in the world, even the worst such odds are thoroughly worthwhile, because that one viable seed that they got out of too many attempts is enough to prove that it can be done despite long odds. And if it truly can't be done, there's still the satisfaction of knowing you proved it without a doubt, and don't have to wonder about it anymore.
I still don't think it's impossible in the strictest sense, but it's probably difficult enough to make a grown man cry. You could spend years trying without getting a single good result. But if you ever got a good result, you'd be glad you never abandoned the project.
And if you succeeded in hybridizing, but got sterile results, there's always the chance of inducing parthenocarpy to get fruits (though I'll admit I'm not even sure if that's possible to do intentionally). Or maybe colchicine treatment.
here is a thread I created a while ago that discusses this subject, and has pics of some of the suspected hybrids I have...
some are definitely mutations or variations....
one thing they all have in common, is Red Jaboticaba blood!
I suppose planting seeds from a hybrid is a good way to get a new variety...they seem to show more variation than a pure species, but still the variation is usually very subtle, and limited.
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=11087
Great thread! I've always been a bit wary on the concept of crossing with prior hybrids. Granted, those are probably the most interesting hybrids you could breed, but it always seemed to me like the more species you add into a cross, the greater the chance of sterility or hybrid failure further down the line.
Personally, I've always had a fondness for the concept of crossing really similar species. As a student of Occam's Razor, I'm not a fan of redundancy (especially on limited land), and similar species often seem redundant to me. Crossing them together eliminates the need to choose. It's almost like having both species despite having only one tree (and without having to resort to cocktail grafts). Under this weird logic, I'd cross (Sabará x Paulista) x Coronata, Aureana x Phitrantha, and (Glazioviana x Guaquiea) x Strigipes. Three trees, eight species involved. It's a win-win!
For varietal development, I'd rather cross differing species. One of the whites with Trunciflora, Grimal x Sabará, and other such combinations. For the wild impossible hybrids, I'd try across group boundaries (any combination of Common group, Blue, Yellow group and Plinia group).
It was definitely all members of the common group. Coronata and Sabara definitely and a few others. I think the red and scarlet already show some of the markers of hybrid vigour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis). If you do enough hybrids, especially with distant relatives and you are likely to eventually get a aneuploid. If you could find that 4n hybrid and backcross to a 2n to make a triploid with hybrid vigour, well that would be the jackpot. Imagine a 4n aureana/restinga hybrid crossed back to a red. Precocious, vigourous, seedless. Would take a bit of work naturally, or a little colchicine.....
Now THIS is what I'm talkin' 'bout! That's what I was hoping to see when I posted my query! A little info, incentive, and direction!
now them sound like plant breedin' words to me!
it's a great idea my friend...unfortunately for me, I can barely keep up with the workload at my nursery.
I have half a mind to help you out in that department, my friend. But despite my passion for plant breeding, I'm in no position to carry out such experiments. No time, no space, no budget. I'm screwed for the next five years at least. Still, I might try my hand at some passive experimentation with what I have on hand. If anything interesting comes up, I'll be sure to trade seeds with you, assuming you don't beat me to the punch on my chosen combos.