Author Topic: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous  (Read 387473 times)

FlyingFoxFruits

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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #925 on: June 10, 2015, 10:26:06 AM »
This thread just went above my pay grade ???

I need to give you a raise!

this subject really isn't that complicated.

in a nut shell (jabo shell  ;) )....

it would be wonderful, to easily and intentionally create new hybrids (or varieties), but this is a very looooooong process....and out of the dozens  (over 100 easy?) of species that exist, only certain species are capable of being hybridized...without paying a satan worshiping scientist for tinkering with the genomes of these jewels from God, in a lab.
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Caesar

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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #926 on: June 10, 2015, 10:38:08 AM »
Oscar

Of course I know this  ::)

But based on the species and characteristics noted by Caesar, the only way to combine them or harness the charactersitics, would be in a lab...

For instance, cuspidata x grimal

If you are actually considering breeding, you must consider which plants are capable of being hybridized...without genetic modification.

Well, I don't think hybridization is strictly necessary to breed any of these qualities into them. I just mentioned it as an option, wherever it might be possible. I think it's possible to breed every single one of these traits into a single tree without hybridizing. The real problem here is that even selective breeding requires a chance mutation to begin the work, and if there's no mutation, you've got nothing to work with.

You might develop an Aureana or a Grimal with a freestone habit just by selection. But you'd still need to find a chance seedling whose fruits show qualities in that direction. It seems like a lot is left to chance here, but there's no way around that. Stonefruit had hundreds of years worth of selection to develop their traits. Jabos might enjoy similar developments on a similar timescale, but for a breeder looking for tangible progress in his lifetime, it's not fast enough. Granted, I wouldn't modify Jabos in a lab, but I'm not averse to taking less drastic shortcuts, if they're available.

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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #927 on: June 10, 2015, 11:26:35 AM »
Right on Caesar,

you are correct in your assumption that you can find some new varieties by selective breeding, but this would take a long time as well, and would require tons of space for growing....it's just not feasible for most growers...consider how large the trees must be before fruiting, how long it takes for them to fruit, and how many trees you'd need to plant to produce a new trait.

as for good old fashioned hybridization
I believe aureana x grimal is possible!

it's on my list of things to do! maybe next spring I can make worthwhile attempt?

I made some feeble attempts at cross pollinating the Grimal with Red pollen...

lol...maybe some lucky dog will end up buying one of the seeds from me....

they were both fruiting in close proximity to each other in my greenhouse!
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 11:36:52 AM by FlyingFoxFruits »
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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #928 on: June 10, 2015, 12:04:49 PM »
Right on Caesar,

you are correct in your assumption that you can find some new varieties by selective breeding, but this would take a long time as well, and would require tons of space for growing....it's just not feasible for most growers...consider how large the trees must be before fruiting, how long it takes for them to fruit, and how many trees you'd need to plant to produce a new trait.

as for good old fashioned hybridization
I believe aureana x grimal is possible!

it's on my list of things to do! maybe next spring I can make worthwhile attempt?

I made some feeble attempts at cross pollinating the Grimal with Red pollen...

lol...maybe some lucky dog will end up buying one of the seeds from me....

they were both fruiting in close proximity to each other in my greenhouse!

Aureana x Grimal?! You have my attention! That seems like a rather disparate cross. The results are sure to be interesting.

I was hoping to attempt Cuspidata x Aureana (still waiting on Miguel's seeds... struck while the iron was HOT!  8)), but I've no info. to go on regarding compatibility. Just gonna wing it for now.

You mentioned earlier the incompatibility between the Plinia group, the Yellow group and the Common group. I think it can happen, but you might need special techniques, and fertility of the resulting tree is another hurdle entirely. When I looked up Mentor Grafting, I also found a reference to Mentor Pollination, and apparently it helps when trying to bring together widely divergent species. And besides, if Luther Burbank could bring together a Dewberry with an Apple (albeit with sterile results), I don't see why a Sabara x Cambuçá should be impossible.

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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #929 on: June 10, 2015, 12:13:32 PM »
Caesar,

good luck with some of those crosses and techniques you mention...

but my common sense tells me....if such crosses could be done without creating a transgenetic organism, it would have been done already in Brazil!

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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #930 on: June 10, 2015, 01:51:22 PM »
Something simpler: Essentially all of my fruits this year have two seeds, a few with three.  I only recall them having one seed the prior few years but my memory on this is not 100% by a long shot.  Adam has previously identified my tree as Sabara.  Is there anything unusual about this?

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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #931 on: June 10, 2015, 03:09:04 PM »
There is a published paper on jaboticaba hybridization.  From what I can remember they made crosses and used genetic markers to check for success.  They did not grow them out. There was a very high success rate.

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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #932 on: June 10, 2015, 03:50:12 PM »
There is a published paper on jaboticaba hybridization.  From what I can remember they made crosses and used genetic markers to check for success.  They did not grow them out. There was a very high success rate.

see if you can find it...I'm assuming it's written in Portuguese?

I bet they used species like, M. cauliflora, M. jaboticaba, M. coronata, M. trunciflora and M. aureana....

I doubt they attempted to hybridize stuff like glazioviana, tenella, cuspidata, dubia, P. edulis.

do you see the point I'm trying to make?

hybridization is not as easy as some might think...when you are considering all of the species that these genera (myrciaria/plinia) have to offer.
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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #933 on: June 10, 2015, 03:55:53 PM »
here is a thread I created a while ago that discusses this subject, and has pics of some of the suspected hybrids I have...

some are definitely mutations or variations....

one thing they all have in common, is Red Jaboticaba blood!

I suppose planting seeds from a hybrid is a good way to get a new variety...they seem to show more variation than a pure species, but still the variation is usually very subtle, and limited.

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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #934 on: June 10, 2015, 06:02:23 PM »
It was definitely all members of the common group. Coronata and Sabara definitely and a few others. I think the red and scarlet already show some of the markers of hybrid vigour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis). If you do enough hybrids, especially with distant relatives and you are likely to eventually get a aneuploid. If you could find that 4n hybrid and backcross to a 2n to make a triploid with hybrid vigour, well that would be the jackpot. Imagine a 4n aureana/restinga hybrid crossed back to a red. Precocious, vigourous, seedless. Would take a bit of work naturally, or a little colchicine.....


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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #935 on: June 10, 2015, 06:19:39 PM »
now them sound like plant breedin' words to me!

 ;D

it's a great idea my friend...unfortunately for me, I can barely keep up with the workload at my nursery.

It was definitely all members of the common group. Coronata and Sabara definitely and a few others. I think the red and scarlet already show some of the markers of hybrid vigour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis). If you do enough hybrids, especially with distant relatives and you are likely to eventually get a aneuploid. If you could find that 4n hybrid and backcross to a 2n to make a triploid with hybrid vigour, well that would be the jackpot. Imagine a 4n aureana/restinga hybrid crossed back to a red. Precocious, vigourous, seedless. Would take a bit of work naturally, or a little colchicine.....
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Caesar

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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #936 on: June 10, 2015, 06:51:34 PM »
Something simpler: Essentially all of my fruits this year have two seeds, a few with three.  I only recall them having one seed the prior few years but my memory on this is not 100% by a long shot.  Adam has previously identified my tree as Sabara.  Is there anything unusual about this?

Maybe they're being pollinated more thoroughly? Miguel's E. calycina used to pop out smaller few-seeded fruits. Since he started hand-pollinating, fruit size and seed-count per fruit has skyrocketed. I'm thinking that's what's going on with your Jabos, but then I'm no expert.

Caesar,

good luck with some of those crosses and techniques you mention...

but my common sense tells me....if such crosses could be done without creating a transgenetic organism, it would have been done already in Brazil!
see if you can find it...I'm assuming it's written in Portuguese?

I bet they used species like, M. cauliflora, M. jaboticaba, M. coronata, M. trunciflora and M. aureana....

I doubt they attempted to hybridize stuff like glazioviana, tenella, cuspidata, dubia, P. edulis.

do you see the point I'm trying to make?

hybridization is not as easy as some might think...when you are considering all of the species that these genera (myrciaria/plinia) have to offer.

I don't know, man. My parent's common sense tells 'em that if exotic fruits were any good, they'd already be well known by now; doesn't mean they're right.  ;)

But in all seriousness, I think you're probably right about some of these being impossible, but it can't hurt to try. I've never considered hybridization to be easy business, and the more divergent your chosen species pair, the harder it is to accomplish successfully. But hard is not synonymous with impossible. Let's say there's a one in a thousand chance that a Cambuçá pollinated by Sabará will bear a seeded fruit; then let's say that for every such fruit, there's a one in a hundred chance that the seed could be viable. Those are very long odds, and impractical for most hybridizers; but for every enthusiast who has the patience and all the time in the world, even the worst such odds are thoroughly worthwhile, because that one viable seed that they got out of too many attempts is enough to prove that it can be done despite long odds. And if it truly can't be done, there's still the satisfaction of knowing you proved it without a doubt, and don't have to wonder about it anymore.

I still don't think it's impossible in the strictest sense, but it's probably difficult enough to make a grown man cry. You could spend years trying without getting a single good result. But if you ever got a good result, you'd be glad you never abandoned the project.

And if you succeeded in hybridizing, but got sterile results, there's always the chance of inducing parthenocarpy to get fruits (though I'll admit I'm not even sure if that's possible to do intentionally). Or maybe colchicine treatment.

here is a thread I created a while ago that discusses this subject, and has pics of some of the suspected hybrids I have...

some are definitely mutations or variations....

one thing they all have in common, is Red Jaboticaba blood!

I suppose planting seeds from a hybrid is a good way to get a new variety...they seem to show more variation than a pure species, but still the variation is usually very subtle, and limited.

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=11087

Great thread! I've always been a bit wary on the concept of crossing with prior hybrids. Granted, those are probably the most interesting hybrids you could breed, but it always seemed to me like the more species you add into a cross, the greater the chance of sterility or hybrid failure further down the line.

Personally, I've always had a fondness for the concept of crossing really similar species. As a student of Occam's Razor, I'm not a fan of redundancy (especially on limited land), and similar species often seem redundant to me. Crossing them together eliminates the need to choose. It's almost like having both species despite having only one tree (and without having to resort to cocktail grafts). Under this weird logic, I'd cross (Sabará x Paulista) x Coronata, Aureana x Phitrantha, and (Glazioviana x Guaquiea) x Strigipes. Three trees, eight species involved. It's a win-win!

For varietal development, I'd rather cross differing species. One of the whites with Trunciflora, Grimal x Sabará, and other such combinations. For the wild impossible hybrids, I'd try across group boundaries (any combination of Common group, Blue, Yellow group and Plinia group).

It was definitely all members of the common group. Coronata and Sabara definitely and a few others. I think the red and scarlet already show some of the markers of hybrid vigour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis). If you do enough hybrids, especially with distant relatives and you are likely to eventually get a aneuploid. If you could find that 4n hybrid and backcross to a 2n to make a triploid with hybrid vigour, well that would be the jackpot. Imagine a 4n aureana/restinga hybrid crossed back to a red. Precocious, vigourous, seedless. Would take a bit of work naturally, or a little colchicine.....

Now THIS is what I'm talkin' 'bout! That's what I was hoping to see when I posted my query! A little info, incentive, and direction!

now them sound like plant breedin' words to me!

 ;D

it's a great idea my friend...unfortunately for me, I can barely keep up with the workload at my nursery.

I have half a mind to help you out in that department, my friend. But despite my passion for plant breeding, I'm in no position to carry out such experiments. No time, no space, no budget. I'm screwed for the next five years at least. Still, I might try my hand at some passive experimentation with what I have on hand. If anything interesting comes up, I'll be sure to trade seeds with you, assuming you don't beat me to the punch on my chosen combos.  ;D

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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #937 on: June 10, 2015, 07:42:04 PM »
Oscar

Of course I know this  ::)

But based on the species and characteristics noted by Caesar, the only way to combine them or harness the charactersitics, would be in a lab...

For instance, cuspidata x grimal

If you are actually considering breeding, you must consider which plants are capable of being hybridized...without genetic modification.



People have already purposefully created hybrids, and they occur naturally more than you might think.

I actually have several trees that I believe are new hybrids (I'm in the process of trying to confirm my suspicion)

Honestly I haven't had time make a worthwhile attempt at creating a new hybrid intentionally...but if you have several species flowering in one place at the same time, eventually you will get a hybrid (but not all species are capable of hybridization ...for instance, you can't cross yellow jabo with cambuca, or sabara with cambuca or yellow...but u could theoretically hybridize guaquiea with strigipes or glazioviana or glomerata ...)

But now we are treading into dangerous territory, where an intense debate can arise...about the genetic modification of myrciarias and plinias.

Selective breeding is totally different than genetic modification. No debate about selective breeding. That has been done by humans for thousands of years.

Maybe you know it Adam, but you'd be surprised how often people, especially pro-GMO people, say that breeding GMO's is no different than the breeding our ancestors have done for thousand of years. This is part of their argument for rationalizing use of GMO's.
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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #938 on: June 10, 2015, 08:13:18 PM »
yes I've noticed this as well Oscar...

but I couldn't disagree more...

selective breeding and hybridizing is fair, GMO is cheating!

Like having a game genie for NES...it takes all the fun out of the game.
 :D
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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #939 on: July 07, 2015, 11:07:55 AM »
my jabuticabas tree...I dont know the Id








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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #940 on: July 10, 2015, 08:58:12 PM »
update:

here is the strange small leaved sport that I isolated, and grafted!

it's looking really cool still, doing well!







Here is one of the weird looking Myrciarias that sprouted...I thought at first it could be a deficiency or too much of a certain micro-nutrient... but i've noticed the leaves are like none other I've seen...I keep waiting for the plant to grow out of it...maybe the leaf type will change?

For now it makes very small, slender, leaves...with a bit of fuzz on them...which is somewhat unusual.

I'm beginning to suspect that its a seedling of the hybrid (red jaboticaba)...after planting thousands of them, I'm realizing they have more variation than I thought...but you really have to plant thousands to notice.

Next I have to post some pics of the strange trunciflora seedling that sprouted...it's definitely unusual.  Looks like a perfect cross between M. trunciflora and the Red jabo, (M. cauliflora hybrid).  I will post pics of all three trees to show what I'm talking about.


I have got some jabos that I need to post pics of...

I have some peculiar seedlings that popped up...I can't identify them...so it's exciting for now...that is, until the leaves revert back to normal, and I realize what they are!  or maybe I'm lucky...and have a new variety...I think it will be a little of both.

I also have a grafted tree (scions taken from my friends tree) that I can't identify....it reminds me somewhat of truciflora, but the leaves are fuzzy when young...and fuzzy on the undersides when mature...also, I've seen the mother tree flower, and they don't hang from stalks...so it can't be a variety of trunciflora.

I will try to post pics by sunday




Ok...here is a short story...with some pictures, of a strange jaboticaba seedling

as you can see in the post above, about 2-3yrs ago I planted a bunch of red jaboticaba seeds, and one of the seeds came up looking very strange, with a compact growth habit, and unique foliage appearance...having small lance shaped leaves...at least 3 x smaller than usual for Red jabo.

well..i took care of that seedling, hoping I would have a new variety...but it's growth was stunted...and it refused to grow at a normal pace...the seedling never did decline, but eventually it started to grow an extremely vigorous sucker from the base....being that it was the only real growth i had seen, I did not stop the sucker from growing....

it turned out that the sucker put out normal foliage, and the original, small strange looking seedling remained....stunted, and peculiar looking...now at least 5x smaller than the normal looking sucker that outgrew it.

so....i thought to myself...maybe this is a sport? I'll try to graft it, and see if it keeps the strange foliage, and growth habit!

here is the result of my experiment so far:







(it's hard to tell at this stage, but looks like it will keep its strange characteristics!  and has started to grow vigorously now that it's on sabara roots!)

i'm wondering if this branch was just diseased by a virus? or something that made it grow deformed leaves??  i think I've seen this happen before??  but very rarely...

let's see if this is something special, and if I can capture the magic!  ;D

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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #941 on: July 11, 2015, 03:56:39 AM »
Subarctic Jaboticaba fruit, two weeks ago:



This fruit today:


YES WE SCAN NEW TROPICAL FRUITS

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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #942 on: July 11, 2015, 09:33:02 AM »
Alex,

that is so cool!!

i notice the dried flower stays at the tip of your fruit for much longer than mine ( I suppose because you're growing the plant indoors?)

how are you maintaining proper humidity?

(are you doing anything to increase humidity?)

the longer you let the fruit sit on the tree (up until it starts to look wrinkled, which is too far in some cases), the better they taste!!

(after they turn fully red, let them sit for over 10-12 days if possible)
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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #943 on: July 11, 2015, 01:16:40 PM »
Yes, this plant grows indoor all time. I use a 4 liter humidifier nearby.
This fruit never was fully red, turn fast ffom green to fully dark.
Mayby it isnt Escarlate?
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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #944 on: July 11, 2015, 01:57:59 PM »
Yes, this plant grows indoor all time. I use a 4 liter humidifier nearby.
This fruit never was fully red, turn fast ffom green to fully dark.
Mayby it isnt Escarlate?

so you purchased the tree as escarlate? not Hibrida or Precoce (red jabo)?
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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #945 on: July 11, 2015, 03:55:09 PM »
Yes, this plant grows indoor all time. I use a 4 liter humidifier nearby.
This fruit never was fully red, turn fast ffom green to fully dark.
Mayby it isnt Escarlate?

so you purchased the tree as escarlate? not Hibrida or Precoce (red jabo)?

purchased as simply M. cauliflora
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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #946 on: July 11, 2015, 04:05:26 PM »
it must be precoce, hibrida, what I call RED JABOTICABA (M. cauliflora x aureana)

probably the wisest choice a grower can make when deciding to grow a rare tropical fruit indoors, or out of the proper zone.

I need more people like you on the forum,  because you give my customers no excuse not to buy some seeds, or some plants  :P

if you can fruit these indoors, that means people can fruit them anywhere in the world!

I sincerely congratulate you!  Job well done!

you will be rewarded with more fruit each year (the crop size increases substantially)

Yes, this plant grows indoor all time. I use a 4 liter humidifier nearby.
This fruit never was fully red, turn fast ffom green to fully dark.
Mayby it isnt Escarlate?

so you purchased the tree as escarlate? not Hibrida or Precoce (red jabo)?

purchased as simply M. cauliflora
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xshen

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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #947 on: July 11, 2015, 09:18:40 PM »
it must be precoce, hibrida, what I call RED JABOTICABA (M. cauliflora x aureana)

probably the wisest choice a grower can make when deciding to grow a rare tropical fruit indoors, or out of the proper zone.

I need more people like you on the forum,  because you give my customers no excuse not to buy some seeds, or some plants  :P

if you can fruit these indoors, that means people can fruit them anywhere in the world!

I sincerely congratulate you!  Job well done!

you will be rewarded with more fruit each year (the crop size increases substantially)

Yes, this plant grows indoor all time. I use a 4 liter humidifier nearby.
This fruit never was fully red, turn fast ffom green to fully dark.
Mayby it isnt Escarlate?

so you purchased the tree as escarlate? not Hibrida or Precoce (red jabo)?

purchased as simply M. cauliflora


Adam is not kidding when he says your crop will increase substantially!  My container red hybrid jabo fruited earlier this year and gave 2 fruits.  It flowered again last month and There are about 2 dozens of fruit ready to be picked.  It just finished flowering again with a few dozens of bb size fruits!!

AlexRF

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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #948 on: July 12, 2015, 02:10:18 AM »
Adam, xchen, all friends,
some advices about proper soil mix and fertilizing? Partial or full sun? Hign humidity all time or just in fruiting periods?
YES WE SCAN NEW TROPICAL FRUITS

AlexRF

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Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« Reply #949 on: July 12, 2015, 02:14:08 AM »
What are the main causes of brown leaves tips?
Probably answers was given earlier on the Forum but repeat it please...  :)
YES WE SCAN NEW TROPICAL FRUITS