The Tropical Fruit Forum

Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: simon_grow on March 26, 2018, 01:21:30 AM

Title: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on March 26, 2018, 01:21:30 AM
Cherimoyas/Atemoyas are one of my favorite fruit with their extremely sweet and fragrant velvety white flesh that has the perfect balance of pineapple like acidity to balance out the high sugar content. When I first saw a Cherimoya, it looked very alien to me and I had no clue about the deliciousness that hid beneath the green alien skin. Thankfully, my first taste of Cherimoya was from my friend who offered me a fruit from a tree his dad grew in their backyard and it was an excellent variety. He told me to wait a few days to let it ripen, which I did, and after one taste I was hooked for life. This was about thirty years ago.

I’ve been growing Cherimoyas ever since and recently began thinking about trying my hand at breeding Cherimoyas, maybe crossing them with Atemoyas.

Cherimoyas are so friggin delicious but also crazy expensive. I’ve watched the price of Cherimoyas slowly climb each year and good quality fruit are now going for around $7-12 per pound with about $8-10 a pound being average in my area. One of the reasons Cherimoyas( Atemoyas to a lesser extent) are so expensive is because many of the varieties need hand pollination in order to set reliable and nicely shaped crops.

Recently, while pondering the possibility of crossing a Lemon Zest Mango with a DOT Mango, I thought to myself what a pain in the ass it is to cross Mangos. With huge bloom panicles on Mangos and with pollinating insects busily collecting nectar and thus potentially contaminating virgin female flowers, I would have to emasculate hermie flowers, remove male flowers and bag virgin females in order to procure my starting material. At that moment, I thought to myself, the disadvantage of requiring hand pollination with Cherimoyas can be an advantage when it comes to breeding Cherimoyas.

Several years ago, Leo Manuel offered me a fruit from a Cherimoya x Atemoya cross. He simply called it #3 and it was easily one of the best Cherimoya like fruit I have ever tasted. The Fruit had a very sweet Rasberry like acidity, very reminiscent of the acidity from a regular Cherimoya but you can taste the tiny bit of Atemoya in there as well. The best thing about Leo’s Fruit was that he gets fruit without hand pollination.

I’ve grown Cherimoyas from random seeds before and one of my seedlings produced awesome fruit. Unlike many other types of fruit( besides clones/polyembryonic) I’ve heard from others that they also got great tasting fruit from seedlings. This leads me to believe that the major traits that we( us Fruit snobs) are looking for such as good size, sweet taste and good acid balance are concentrated in a narrow gene pool which may indicate that breeding Cherimoyas and Annona hybrids may be worth the effort.

I began a short search and immediately found this article that talks about mapping the genetic diversity of Cherimoyas 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3253804/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3253804/)

I also came upon this more interesting article regarding breeding strategies for Atemoyas and Cherimoyas which touches upon creating seedless fruit through utilization of polyploids to create seedless triploid, which I theorized in another thread, which was based on the process of creating seedless watermelons.
https://www.actahort.org/books/497/497_13.htm (https://www.actahort.org/books/497/497_13.htm)

Anyways, to make a long story longer, I am seriously contemplating some future breeding projects to focus on creating an excellent tasting fruit with lower seed count, high sugar, high acid and most importantly self pollinating. Leo Manuel already created something to this extent but I’m not going to settle and I’m thinking about crossing Leo’s hybrid #3 with Dr. white, Pierce, El Bumpo or Orton. Maybe all 3?

Anybody have any good articles, suggestions or reasons why I shouldn’t do it? Thanks in advance for any comments.

Simon

Edited to correct tetraploid to triploid
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: skhan on March 26, 2018, 02:41:31 PM
In the States, it seems like the subtropical/tropical fruit arent going to get much love (government funding) due to simple geography (I would think).
I guess it's up to private individuals and companies to do this work.
You have my support!!! (as that is all I can offer now)

Whenever I get a plot of land I'd like to do the same.

Leafhoppers have been hurting my annona this year, it would be good to have some varieties that are resistant to some of these pests.
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: behlgarden on March 26, 2018, 06:25:36 PM
Simon,  we are planning on a Pierce x Genova Red Illama and Pierce x Top Australian Atemoya.  Thera already has hybrid seeds from two years ago and seedling might fruit this year.  Given how good Pierce is, it should be the go-to for pollen. I heard you can pollinate Pierce with Illama but not the other way around.
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: fyliu on March 26, 2018, 08:17:49 PM
This sounds cool. You can graft 10 or more seedling scions onto the same tree to evaluate the fruits later. Each rootstock tree could be made to hold one crossing experiment.
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: Ethan on March 27, 2018, 01:24:18 AM
I'd be happy to do some taste testing for you Simon!
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on March 27, 2018, 09:31:45 AM
Thanks for the replies everyone.

Behl, I can’t wait to see what Thera gets from the crosses. Pierce is an excellent variety. One of my main objectives is to get trees that produce fruit without hand pollination.

Fang, that is my plan. We are doing this with Mango and Cherimoya seedlings. We plan on grafting multiple seedling scions onto a mature tree to test them and save space.

Ethan, just show up to one of the Cherimoya tastings and you can sample whatever we have.

Leo’s Hybrid is already so good, it’s hard to imagine it can get much better. Last year, the Fruit had very few seeds but this year, it had a bit more. Also, the skin of the fruit is bumpy and although I am not trying to create something for the commercial market, I would still like the fruit to have smooth skin so that there is less skin damage when transporting it tasting events or shipping to friends and family.

I feel that a 1 pound fruit is about perfect for personal consumption but it wouldn’t hurt to have a fruit in the 2-3 pound range. For this, crossing with Dr White may be a good choice. Dr White also has an excellent flesh to seed ratio due to its exaggerated size.

Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: ScottR on March 27, 2018, 10:59:24 AM
This sounds like a wonderful experiment Simon, i wish you the best in this interesting effort! ;)
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: johnb51 on March 27, 2018, 01:07:24 PM
Yes, a worthwhile undertaking.  Looking forward to these new creations.  (Hoping they might grow in Florida!)
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: JF on March 27, 2018, 01:32:52 PM
Simon
That sounds good.  I’m involved in an anona breeding program but I would be willing to help with pollen from 5-6 species of anona.
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on March 27, 2018, 01:38:40 PM
Thanks Scott and John, with the use of Leo’s Hybrid #3 selection as one of the parents, I hope members in Florida will be able to grow it.

I wish I had more info on the taste of the Dream Atemoya or Cherimoya. If it has high acidity, low seed count and is self fruitful, I could use its genetics in my experimental crosses. IIRC, some people believe Dream is not a true Cherimoya but perhaps a Hybrid? I thought the leaf shape was a bit more pointy like an Atemoya or a hybrid but can’t remember.

If i cross Leo hybrid #3 with a Dream, there’s a good chance of finding an offspring that has great Cherimoya taste(acidity) and be fruitful in Florida.

For my experimental cross, the flavor is very important. The thing I don’t like about Atemoyas is their lack of acidity although some like Lisa can have great acidity. The benefit of Atemoya genetics is that they can be self fruitful.

Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on March 27, 2018, 01:41:47 PM
Simon
That sounds good.  I’m involved in an anona breeding program but I would be willing to help with pollen from 5-6 species of anona.

Thanks Frank,
I would have contacted you soon enough. You have one of the biggest Annona collections in town and I would love your input.

Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: Vernmented on March 27, 2018, 02:23:20 PM
I grafted some cherimoya scions recently hoping to do the same thing here in Florida and maybe even find a cherimoya that will set a decent crop here. I will have to check my LM-3 branch when I get home and take special care of it. Dream seems to make smallish fruit and I haven't seen a well tendend, tipped, stripped and hand pollinated tree to really evaluate it's true potential. I'll pollinate mine this year but there are so many different grafts on it that it wont be a great reading on it's potential.

I just ate my first La Habra Sun this morning and it was still good tasting even though it was a late winter fruit and I recently pruned the tree and stripped the leaves. It definitely beat the crap out of the insipid late fruit I was eating early this winter from a different tree that I let hold way too much fruit.
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on March 27, 2018, 06:56:40 PM
Here is a picture of the Leo hybrid #3 Fruit in case anyone missed the other thread. The fruit is very bumpy and has a Brix between 24-26% with excellent acid balance. To me personally, I don’t care if it’s a Cherimoya, Atemoya, Cherisop, Hybrid or whatever. I just really want the fruit to be self fruitful/self pollinating and for it to have excellent Cherimoya like acidity.

I just emailed Leo to see if he can give me additional background information on his Hybrid #3. I would really like to know what he used for the male and female.

(https://s18.postimg.cc/t700wh3et/58_A66_D2_E-829_A-41_A7-891_A-9179_BB9_DAA35.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/t700wh3et/)

(https://s18.postimg.cc/l1hyyca11/94970_BB3-02_CF-4458-_B82_A-58916_C3_DA745.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/l1hyyca11/)

(https://s18.postimg.cc/arfjz3cfp/B511_A29_C-_E65_D-4425-9_D78-_BC956_EE86_DE4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/arfjz3cfp/)
Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: Vernmented on March 28, 2018, 12:15:31 PM
Nice! This is one of the more vigorous grafts on my tree. It is putting out flowers right now. I hit it with some fish/seaweed/keyplex micro foliar feeding and broadcast the whole yard with organic 4-3-4, potassium sulfate and sul-po-mag. I am ready for some night hand pollination and some fruit. :)

Here is a picture of the Leo hybrid #3 Fruit in case anyone missed the other thread. The fruit is very bumpy and has a Brix between 24-26% with excellent acid balance. To me personally, I don’t care if it’s a Cherimoya, Atemoya, Cherisop, Hybrid or whatever. I just really want the fruit to be self fruitful/self pollinating and for it to have excellent Cherimoya like acidity.

I just emailed Leo to see if he can give me additional background information on his Hybrid #3. I would really like to know what he used for the male and female.

(https://s18.postimg.cc/t700wh3et/58_A66_D2_E-829_A-41_A7-891_A-9179_BB9_DAA35.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/t700wh3et/)

(https://s18.postimg.cc/l1hyyca11/94970_BB3-02_CF-4458-_B82_A-58916_C3_DA745.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/l1hyyca11/)

(https://s18.postimg.cc/arfjz3cfp/B511_A29_C-_E65_D-4425-9_D78-_BC956_EE86_DE4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/arfjz3cfp/)
Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on March 28, 2018, 06:29:53 PM
Josh, I don’t see the picture.

Here is an article on the effects of grafting on Annonas on diff scion/rootstock combinations
https://file.scirp.org/pdf/AS20120200013_71166332.pdf
Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: buddy roo on March 29, 2018, 10:25:21 AM
Hi Simon, i have 1 that always starts blooming in jan./feb. if you would like some material to try for early bloom you can pm me.                 Patrick
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: behlgarden on March 29, 2018, 10:33:26 AM
Hi Simon, i have 1 that always starts blooming in jan./feb. if you would like some material to try for early bloom you can pm me.                 Patrick

fact that I observed with cherimoyas and atemoyas is that plant goes thru cycle. cycle in late spring when tree goes dormant and drops all leaves off. that is when pruning should occur and that is when nodes are exposed where leaves are shed. Also by this time temps are over 60 at nights and over 85-90 during days, allowing the flower to set fruits if pollinated. Anona in my yard does not set any fruits until June. I have tried strip leaves early method only to find flowers but fail to set anything. 

Does anyone else has observed this?
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: JF on March 29, 2018, 02:31:01 PM
Behl is right. Atemoyas might set afew weeks earlier but the bulk of the fruits will set late June to July. Ilama, Custard Apple and soursop from August to October.
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on March 30, 2018, 09:31:46 PM
Hi Simon, i have 1 that always starts blooming in jan./feb. if you would like some material to try for early bloom you can pm me.                 Patrick

Patrick, thanks for the offer, I’m still working on a plan for this breeding project.

Behl, Leo’s Hybrid ripens around this time of year so it’s probably similar to the flowering and fruiting pattern of other Atemoyas. I have a couple small grafts on my bigger tree in the back and I’m going to see if the season is different than Leo’s season. I would love to gather more information on how ripening times are affected by location and rootstock.

Thanks for the confirmation Frank.

I visited Leo’s place again and he said he created his Hybrid #3 by crossing African Pride with an unknown Cherimoya. I don’t know which one was the male or female.

I would really like to do a side by side taste comparison of Leo’s Hybrid #3 and the Dream Cherimoya/Atemoya.

Leo’s Hybrid would make an excellent top graft on a dedicated tree or a multigraft tree. By putting the Leo Hybrid #3 as a top, you will get fruit on the top canopy where you normally won’t be able to reach to perform cross pollination.

Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: Mike T on March 30, 2018, 09:53:23 PM
Pinks mammoth atemoyas were grown from seeds since the 1890's in Australia and no doubt many decades before in French Guyana. While now they are grafted they grow pretty true to type.Paxton prolific and Hillary white are bud sport offspring and it seems this is the premium atemoya genetic line.Crossing to good red ilama and the best sugar apples might be worthwhile. For that matter crossing red ilama and the best coloured sugar apples or big eyes might produce something good if they are compatible.
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: Mike T on March 30, 2018, 10:09:36 PM
I might just remind people about mammoth atemoyas. They are one of the sweetest, ugliest and mis-shapen atemoyas and are almost seedless and it is the oldest type of atemoya.

(https://s17.postimg.cc/f95n79fu3/a_mammoth.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/f95n79fu3/)
A 5lb specimen is nothing special but inside is what really counts.

(https://s17.postimg.cc/5d4k77pd7/a_mammoth2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on March 31, 2018, 12:32:45 AM
Mike, thanks for the information! I am a novice when it comes to Annonas, are Mamouths, Pa ton Prolific or Hillary White acidic like a Cherimoya? I wonder if we have these in SoCal yet.

Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: Mike T on March 31, 2018, 05:30:33 AM
Hilary White - is the best strain of Pink's Mammoth. It has smoother skin and an excellent cropping performance. The fruit is sweet and aromatic.
African Pride - This heart-shaped fruit has a medium thick skin, more seed than the Pink's Mammoth and produces high yields. The early and consistent bearing behaviour, presentable fruit and early maturing is what makes this the main commercial variety.
Late Gold - A stunning golden-bronze fruit with soft skin and a high flesh ratio. Good-sized fruit. Proving to be an excellent performer in the Northern Rivers.
Pink's Mammoth - has the delicious and melting taste of the sugar apple which makes it one of the most popular of the custard apples. As the name suggests the virtually seedless fruit is one of the largest. Top marks for quality, however a lower yield than the African Pride.
Geffner - is an Israeli cultivar with a moderate to heavy cropping capacity. The flavour is exceptionally good and although it performs well it's not superior to the African Pride.
Ht 7; Fr Med; Pol Yes; Semi-decid; H July to Sept.
Above is a typical assessment of the common commercial varieties in Australia from about 35 years ago.Of course there are new varieties now.Hillary and Paxton are sweet and not really acidic at all.
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on March 31, 2018, 11:36:36 AM
Mike, thanks for saving me the time looking up all those varieties. I would love to breed the near seedlessness of the pinks Mammoth into the progeny of these experiments. One thing I definitely want to keep in these fruit is the acidity that I feel Sugar apples and many Atemoya lack.

Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: kh0110 on May 31, 2018, 01:10:30 PM
I finally got some time off to look after my plants and just took a picture of one of the crosses Behl mentioned and the only survivor :(( It's a PM x Israel Red. The "PM" was from Oscar's scions and I think it's just an AP, not the real deal. The Israel Red was from JF who I believe got the scions from a pal in Spain or Portugal.
This seedling tree has just started to give out a few flowers. However, I don't really have high hope on the outcome as crosses between atemoyas are highly unpredictable. I'd prefer a Atemoya x Sugar Apple or Atemoya x Cherimoya.

(https://s22.postimg.cc/7a3mbzjn1/IMG_1001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/7a3mbzjn1/)
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: PrincessTigerLily on May 31, 2018, 01:33:15 PM
Wow! That's a beautiful looking plant Thera! How old is the plant?
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on June 21, 2018, 07:55:35 PM
Cherimoyas and Atemoyas are flowering now so I decided to go ahead and perform a few crosses. For the Annona hybrids, I crossed Leo Hybrid #3 with Dr White and also Pierce. To do this, I took pollen from Dr White and fully pollinated the newly opened Leo Hybrid #3 flower in the female stage using a new pollinating brush and a new pollen container.

By fully pollinating, I mean that I completely covered the brush with pollen and pollinated twice to ensure complete pollinization. This is important because Leo Hybrid #3 can be self fruitful so I need to ensure all the ovaries were pollinated with my pollen of choice so that it won’t self. I also did this as soon as the flower opened in the female stage in order to avoid cross pollination from wind and insects. New pollen containers and brushes are also important in order to avoid cross contamination. I repeated this procedure with Pierce.

That was the first cross in which the female was the Leo Hybrid #3 but I also performed the reverse cross using the Leo Hybrid #3 for its pollen and cross pollinated Dr White and Pierce flowers in the female stage.

For my Cherimoya cross, I crossed Dr White Pollen with a Pierce flower in the female stage.

After pollinating the flowers, I did not bag the flowers because I felt no need after careful complete pollination but I did tag each flower so I know what is what.


(https://s15.postimg.cc/dxwhtqcnb/066041_AE-44_B5-4_B75-_BECC-_E57_AEDE46_DBE.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/dxwhtqcnb/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/9orrrjtyf/18_C465_AF-_DB23-4_EAE-87_D8-97_BC35299_FC7.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/9orrrjtyf/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/4dcv6uflj/2766_E276-_FCAB-45_B0-9571-_D02172_F4_E82_B.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4dcv6uflj/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/4dcv6uv13/37_BA2046-_B758-421_B-_B94_A-24_EA8_A125_B79.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4dcv6uv13/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/3nu2ugzmf/A480_B3_D1-_A76_B-49_F4-9040-1_F6_F42467_C89.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3nu2ugzmf/)
Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: behlgarden on June 21, 2018, 11:37:38 PM
Great Simon, keep us posted. I plan on pollinating top 3 atemoyas with Pierce, Helmut,  and Sabor once I get flowers in full swing. Let's experiment. Our seedlings fruit within 2 years or less.
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: Mark in Texas on June 22, 2018, 08:04:26 AM
Man, this just some crazy stuff!  Love it.  Count this here Texas cowboy in too.   Annona seeds are a PITA just like seedy citrus.  It would be nice to breed out some of their seediness.  I read a cherimoya fruit comparison where the gardener said Fino de Jefe had the lowest seed count of those trialed.  Don't remember all the varieties but one was Dr. White.

I have a Leo #3 seedling up.  I also have seedlings of African Pride X Campas doing real well.

Simon, incredible work.  Will this Leo come pretty much true?

Recently grafted what one Vietnamese friend calls "Giant Atis" sugar apple on a cherimoya seedling.  It's growing well. Once I get this in its new home would be happy to share wood.  Supposed to be excellent, and it's huge.  I have shared a few sticks with other Texas annona growers.

(https://s22.postimg.cc/hou1bnfgt/Atis_2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/hou1bnfgt/)


Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: ScottR on June 22, 2018, 11:27:21 AM
Nice work Simon, will be interesting to see the result's later on of your experiment  ;)
Mark, nice size s.a. very cool! I had some of my fino de jete this year come with only 4-6 seeds although they were on smaller side. While other's off same tree a few weeks ago were very seedy :o I've always just collected pollen when I find the time ( or make the time) from all my different varieties into one film canister an then pollinated any flowers that were ready, so I'm hybridizing with out trail of parentage and some cherimoya's have come out very good some years and so so other year's. I can't imagine trying to control pollination like Simon is doing that takes devotion , way to go Simon best of luck on your experiment. 8)
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on June 22, 2018, 09:44:33 PM
Thanks everyone,

Mark, I honestly have no idea how close the seedlings of Leo Hybrid #3 will come true to the parent Fruit. If you need actual scions, Brad and I should have more next year.

I just sampled a Koochie Island Annona, I believe it’s an Atemoya but not sure. The Fruit was over a pound and only had 6 seeds. This fruit was actually quite good but just lacked a bit of acidity although it did have some.

I want to find an Annona that will add the following characteristics to my cultivar I’m trying to create:
Self Fruitful
Fewer seeds
Good flavor/acidity that Atemoyas tend to lack
Size averaging minimum of 1 pound

Leos Hybrid #3 has not been tested long enough but it’s the best thing I can find right now. The flavor is absolutely amazing but some fruit have very low seed counts and some fruit have higher seed counts. I also don’t know if it’s self fruitful at all locations. I hand pollinated my flowers for my experiments. I’ll tag a few flowers and not hand pollinate the flower to see if it sets fruit and also to see the seed count for unpollinated Fruit.

I would also like to use Australian varieties like Hilary White but I have never tasted the fruit before. I know HW can probably add size and fewer seeds but I don’t want to take away from the flavor.

If anyone has the link to the thread that talked about  passing traits onto progeny based on wether the selected trait was from the pollen or the female, I’d appreciate it.

Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: Mark in Texas on June 23, 2018, 08:53:57 AM
Thanks for the info and best o luck. 

FWIW I have diluted pollen with flour to make it go farther.  I also stored it in the fridge.
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: Orkine on June 23, 2018, 02:13:21 PM
Simon, nice work.

It was my understanding that complete pollination results in high seed count and that a single dab with your brush results in the better fruit.
Since reduce seed count is one of your objectives can you do a normal pollination and bag one or two flowers as a control?
The goal being to see if the seed count can be discounted if you get a hit on your other metrics.

My opinions are from reviewing literature, I have never tried to create a new veriety but am following your work with great interest.  Hopeful you will develop a chirimoya tasting atemoya that fruits in Florida 😀
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on June 23, 2018, 04:31:19 PM
Hey Orkine, thanks for the encouragement. Let me try to explain it a little better. I am purposefully trying to fully pollinate the female flowers because I want to avoid seeds that are selfed or cross pollinated with a variety other than what I’m trying to breed.

If I just dab the female flowers, only half the ovaries will be pollinated with my selected pollen. The other 50% of the ovaries will be open to pollination by its own pollen or from pollen carried to it by wind or insects.

Now if I harvest this fruit, I won’t know which seeds were pollinated with my specially selected pollen and which seeds were pollinated with contaminated pollen.

If I fully pollinated the flower and all the ovaries with my selected pollen, the parking space would have been filled so even if contaminated pollen was introduced into the female flower, it was already pollinated, parking space is filled, so I can guarantee all the seeds are from my selected pollen.

Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on June 23, 2018, 05:23:21 PM
To add to that, Cherimoya and Atemoya flowers in the female receptive stage are open for a very short window period before they become unreceptive. This is the reason why most Cherimoyas aren’t self fruitful.

This is also the reason why I pollinated my flowers as soon as they open. I did not want insects contaminating the female flower before I got a chance to hand pollinate with my selected pollen.

Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: SoCal2warm on June 25, 2018, 01:23:53 AM
I may be wrong about this, but it was my understanding that Atemoya originally came about from a cross between A. squamosa (Sugar Apple) and either Cherimoya or A. reticulata (Custard Apple).
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: CA Hockey on June 25, 2018, 02:58:37 AM
I had a coochie island tree last year (that's how it was written on the pot so that's the spelling I'm sticking with). burnt in July and never grew back.

The nurseryman who sold it told me it was a cherimoya x atemoya hybrid. It was multigrafted with anothe hybrid - satin... something or other. That also died. The whole tree died all of a sudden. At the time I didn't know how sensitive to heat they could be. It was a very small multi-grafted tree.

-K

Thanks everyone,

Mark, I honestly have no idea how close the seedlings of Leo Hybrid #3 will come true to the parent Fruit. If you need actual scions, Brad and I should have more next year.

I just sampled a Koochie Island Annona, I believe it’s an Atemoya but not sure. The Fruit was over a pound and only had 6 seeds. This fruit was actually quite good but just lacked a bit of acidity although it did have some.

I want to find an Annona that will add the following characteristics to my cultivar I’m trying to create:
Self Fruitful
Fewer seeds
Good flavor/acidity that Atemoyas tend to lack
Size averaging minimum of 1 pound

Leos Hybrid #3 has not been tested long enough but it’s the best thing I can find right now. The flavor is absolutely amazing but some fruit have very low seed counts and some fruit have higher seed counts. I also don’t know if it’s self fruitful at all locations. I hand pollinated my flowers for my experiments. I’ll tag a few flowers and not hand pollinate the flower to see if it sets fruit and also to see the seed count for unpollinated Fruit.

I would also like to use Australian varieties like Hilary White but I have never tasted the fruit before. I know HW can probably add size and fewer seeds but I don’t want to take away from the flavor.

If anyone has the link to the thread that talked about  passing traits onto progeny based on wether the selected trait was from the pollen or the female, I’d appreciate it.

Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: Samu on June 25, 2018, 03:23:46 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/BGY5K4pl.jpg)

Hi Simon, I’ve been reading this thread as of late and find it very interesting. Your photos with labels on the flowers’ stalks caught my eye the other day, since I too, did some labeling starting this year’s flowering season. But, I don’t have a well defined methodology, goals and ambitions nor the scientific background like you though, but simply put, I am just trying to get a better fruit with any combinations flower/pollen that I have on hand.

Since my 5 annona trees with multiple varieties scions on them are gotten a little bigger this year, thus giving me more pollens to work with, I’ve been doing some selective hand pollinations myself, that is:
1.pollinating the flowers of a variety with it’s own variety pollens: hoping to produce the true fruits of such variety
2. pollinating the flowers of a variety with different variety pollens:
hoping to produce superior fruits of such combination. (and yes, I do the reversed procedure as well).

I label each pollinated flower’s stalks with my abbreviation letters showing the donor’s  pollens origin. (I know the pollinated flower’s variety from where it is hanging at which branch).
So, yes, I have multiple pollen containers and individual separate brushes for them. And to help reduce some possible errors, I do this routine since the beginning of this year’s flowering season, (not enough flowers/pollens to play with last year) so hopefully I will have several fruits to compare; observe and to take notes/photos on from these varied combinations when harvesting time comes. 

Who knows…, if such a variety combination in my yard can produce a new hybrid that is superior to that of it’s original named variety, whether that be superiority in taste, size, form, color, skin; seed counts or …?
Thanks for sharing this annona breeding research Simon, I know we can all benefit from your effort!
Note: The varieties that I’ve been working on primarily are: African Pride, El Bumpo, Orton, Doctor White and “Ausie" Atemoya.

Thanks for sharing your annona breeding experiments Simon, I know we can all benefit from your effort!
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: Vernmented on August 03, 2018, 01:57:49 PM
Here are some LM-3 fruits. They look different than your but Annonas a variable and I hand pollinated with a mix of different pollens.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/941/28890954587_41dc34c5cc_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on August 03, 2018, 07:31:48 PM
Josh, those LM#3 look different from the Leo Manuel #3s I’m used to seeing but you are growing them in a different environment and the LM#3 is variable so you could have the real deal. I sent out a bunch of scions and seeds a year or two ago hoping to see how it performs in Florida so please keep us updated. I’m glad that it produces for you in Florida, now we just have to see how it tastes.

Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on August 03, 2018, 07:41:46 PM
Here are some LM-3 fruits. They look different than your but Annonas a variable and I hand pollinated with a mix of different pollens.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/941/28890954587_41dc34c5cc_c.jpg)

Josh, I just checked the pictures I posted about the real Leo Hybrid #3 and all of them have the bumps from top to bottom. The fruit you posted pictures of appears to have the nipple like protrusions near the stem end but disappears midway through the Fruit. It could be due to the different environment it’s growing in but I can’t tell at this point.
See this thread.
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=19336.0 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=19336.0)

These fruit were picked by Leo Manuel himself or by me with Leo standing next to me so they are the real deal.

I will go to Leos house and take more pictures of his crop for this year to see if any of his Fruit looks like yours.

Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on August 03, 2018, 07:46:25 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/BGY5K4pl.jpg)

Hi Simon, I’ve been reading this thread as of late and find it very interesting. Your photos with labels on the flowers’ stalks caught my eye the other day, since I too, did some labeling starting this year’s flowering season. But, I don’t have a well defined methodology, goals and ambitions nor the scientific background like you though, but simply put, I am just trying to get a better fruit with any combinations flower/pollen that I have on hand.

Since my 5 annona trees with multiple varieties scions on them are gotten a little bigger this year, thus giving me more pollens to work with, I’ve been doing some selective hand pollinations myself, that is:
1.pollinating the flowers of a variety with it’s own variety pollens: hoping to produce the true fruits of such variety
2. pollinating the flowers of a variety with different variety pollens:
hoping to produce superior fruits of such combination. (and yes, I do the reversed procedure as well).

I label each pollinated flower’s stalks with my abbreviation letters showing the donor’s  pollens origin. (I know the pollinated flower’s variety from where it is hanging at which branch).
So, yes, I have multiple pollen containers and individual separate brushes for them. And to help reduce some possible errors, I do this routine since the beginning of this year’s flowering season, (not enough flowers/pollens to play with last year) so hopefully I will have several fruits to compare; observe and to take notes/photos on from these varied combinations when harvesting time comes. 

Who knows…, if such a variety combination in my yard can produce a new hybrid that is superior to that of it’s original named variety, whether that be superiority in taste, size, form, color, skin; seed counts or …?
Thanks for sharing this annona breeding research Simon, I know we can all benefit from your effort!
Note: The varieties that I’ve been working on primarily are: African Pride, El Bumpo, Orton, Doctor White and “Ausie" Atemoya.

Thanks for sharing your annona breeding experiments Simon, I know we can all benefit from your effort!

Sam, good stuff. I believe we can come up with something really good. I like the selection of varieties you are starting with.

Instead of growing out each tree to fruiting size, I recommend planting a mother tree. You then label each individual seedling with a name/number, keeping good track of what the paternal/maternal parents are. You then take scions from each seedling and multigraft you Mother tree with as many unique seedlings as you can get on it. Once a seedling Fruits, evaluate it for 1-3 years and if it sucks, chop it and replace with another seedling g selection.

Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on August 03, 2018, 07:48:49 PM
Josh, your fruit resembles African pride a bit. I’m no Annona expert, maybe Frank can chime in if he sees this thread.

Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: Samu on August 04, 2018, 04:12:53 PM

Sam, good stuff. I believe we can come up with something really good. I like the selection of varieties you are starting with.

Instead of growing out each tree to fruiting size, I recommend planting a mother tree. You then label each individual seedling with a name/number, keeping good track of what the paternal/maternal parents are. You then take scions from each seedling and multigraft you Mother tree with as many unique seedlings as you can get on it. Once a seedling Fruits, evaluate it for 1-3 years and if it sucks, chop it and replace with another seedling g selection.

Simon

Thanks Simon, for your concise guideline to follow for the next steps. I may proceed as your outline above, after knowing the hybrids fruits formed are superior to their parent(s).

I supposed the idea of planting a "Mother tree" is to speed up the fruiting process of those multiple hybrids scions and also for saving planting space? I wonder though that there still can be cross pollinations occurring amongst those hybrid scions grafted on the mother tree?
Still learning...
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: JF on August 04, 2018, 04:16:24 PM
Josh, your fruit resembles African pride a bit. I’m no Annona expert, maybe Frank can chime in if he sees this thread.

Simon

Simon those are source from a grower in Temecula that grows all of Leo’s hybrids. He bought the trees from Leo.
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on August 04, 2018, 05:50:10 PM
Thanks for the info Frank, the shape is very different but it could be the real deal. I’ll take pictures of my baby Leo#3 Hybrid Fruit in hopes that we can make identify what Josh has.

My friend gave me a fruit of some Atemoya or Annona hybrid that looks like the one Josh posted but he purchased it as an unnamed variety.

Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on August 10, 2018, 07:22:49 PM
Vernmented, here is what my Leo #3 Hybrid Fruit looks like in the early stages of growth. They are not really mammilated at this young stage.

The little blue painters tape I used for tagging the Fruit work great in the early stages but as the Fruit expands, the tape can fall off. Now that they’re about golf ball size, I wrote directly on the Fruit so I don’t lose track of what’s what.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/tc1pr2ysn/11_AC9806-_C649-4259-_A685-0635_D390_ADB6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/tc1pr2ysn/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/5xtqf595j/711_D3_BF9-_D49_D-4_FBE-_BD2_D-4_E546921001_B.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5xtqf595j/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/703wxpf47/BAF8_ED80-_E161-4609-96_AF-_EC3305_BC59_C5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/703wxpf47/)
Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: Mikey on August 24, 2018, 04:07:37 AM
Here is a link with regards to pollens and characteristics of fruit

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/42/7/1534.short (http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/42/7/1534.short)
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: Vernmented on August 24, 2018, 07:31:24 AM
Vernmented, here is what my Leo #3 Hybrid Fruit looks like in the early stages of growth. They are not really mammilated at this young stage.

The little blue painters tape I used for tagging the Fruit work great in the early stages but as the Fruit expands, the tape can fall off. Now that they’re about golf ball size, I wrote directly on the Fruit so I don’t lose track of what’s what.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/tc1pr2ysn/11_AC9806-_C649-4259-_A685-0635_D390_ADB6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/tc1pr2ysn/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/5xtqf595j/711_D3_BF9-_D49_D-4_FBE-_BD2_D-4_E546921001_B.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5xtqf595j/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/703wxpf47/BAF8_ED80-_E161-4609-96_AF-_EC3305_BC59_C5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/703wxpf47/)
Simon

Nice! Thank you. I love the way your LM-3 look. Great experiment. I will hopefully have some cherimoya flowers to play with next year.
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: macias_97 on September 20, 2018, 02:06:18 PM
Thanks everyone,

Mark, I honestly have no idea how close the seedlings of Leo Hybrid #3 will come true to the parent Fruit. If you need actual scions, Brad and I should have more next year.

I just sampled a Koochie Island Annona, I believe it’s an Atemoya but not sure. The Fruit was over a pound and only had 6 seeds. This fruit was actually quite good but just lacked a bit of acidity although it did have some.

I want to find an Annona that will add the following characteristics to my cultivar I’m trying to create:
Self Fruitful
Fewer seeds
Good flavor/acidity that Atemoyas tend to lack
Size averaging minimum of 1 pound

Leos Hybrid #3 has not been tested long enough but it’s the best thing I can find right now. The flavor is absolutely amazing but some fruit have very low seed counts and some fruit have higher seed counts. I also don’t know if it’s self fruitful at all locations. I hand pollinated my flowers for my experiments. I’ll tag a few flowers and not hand pollinate the flower to see if it sets fruit and also to see the seed count for unpollinated Fruit.

I would also like to use Australian varieties like Hilary White but I have never tasted the fruit before. I know HW can probably add size and fewer seeds but I don’t want to take away from the flavor.

If anyone has the link to the thread that talked about  passing traits onto progeny based on wether the selected trait was from the pollen or the female, I’d appreciate it.

Simon

can you tell me more about the Koochie island, i have one i planted last year, thinking of replacing it with either a pierce or fino de jete
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: Mark in Texas on September 21, 2018, 08:11:39 AM
Which really good annona has the least amount of seeds?  I've read that Fino de Jefe is pretty low in seed count in comparison to others.
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: behlgarden on September 21, 2018, 10:23:58 AM
Which really good annona has the least amount of seeds?  I've read that Fino de Jefe is pretty low in seed count in comparison to others.

Mark, I have found seed count directly corresponds to how much pollen you put in in most cherimoyas. more pollen = bigger fruit and seedy. However I have had Pierce, Campas, Helmut with under 10 seeds for an average size fruits.
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: ScottR on September 21, 2018, 11:21:34 AM
I agree with Sumesh, it's how much pollen get's put in flower! Example i had 3 or 4 Fino de Jete this year with only about 6-7 seeds and they were medium size while the ones i picked later were smaller with many more seeds! So it depends on how much pollen get's on your brush when you pollinate. When i first started hand pollinating my cherimoya's i was putting brush with pollen in flower and rotating brush and I was getting super high seed count but then after watching vedio by Alex from papayatree nursery explain hand pollinating, he explained that it best to dip brush in pollen and just push straight in and out of flower. I done that since and get less seed count but not always because hard to tell how much pollen get's on brush. ;)
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: Mark in Texas on September 23, 2018, 10:13:46 AM
Which really good annona has the least amount of seeds?  I've read that Fino de Jefe is pretty low in seed count in comparison to others.

Mark, I have found seed count directly corresponds to how much pollen you put in in most cherimoyas. more pollen = bigger fruit and seedy. However I have had Pierce, Campas, Helmut with under 10 seeds for an average size fruits.

Wow, impressive.  I find the same thing with citrus.  I get a lot of seeds when the bees get after it in the spring.  My Pierce and Campas are the most vigorous.  Hope to be able to taste my first home grown cherimoyas next year!!!!!!
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: behlgarden on September 23, 2018, 12:17:33 PM
Mark, note that of you want fruit on cherimoyas next year, stop fertilizer just about now. I don't fertilize, mulch only a d get fruits out of twigs too.
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: CherimoyaDude on February 07, 2019, 09:35:11 PM
Have you tried crossbreeding atemoya/cherimoya with soursop? Idk if that is possible or not, curious if someone tried it.
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: Samu on February 07, 2019, 10:13:13 PM
Mark, note that of you want fruit on cherimoyas next year, stop fertilizer just about now. I don't fertilize, mulch only a d get fruits out of twigs too.

I just saw this, could you please give the reason of why this is so? Perhaps you did explain it already in the past, but I missed it, thanks Behl!
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on February 08, 2019, 09:44:04 PM
Sam, you want to stop Nitrogen input about now so that it will not encourage out of season growth flush. Cherimoya trees should be starting to go into dormancy about now. Because of our rains, I have already stopped watering my Cherimoya trees about two months ago.

I will be growing out some Dr White x Pierce seedlings this year. Next year, we will be doing more crosses in the hopes of breeding something really delicious. I’m still trying to breed something that has better acidity than what is currently out there and flowers that can set fruit on their own would be an added bonus.

Simon
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: Samu on February 09, 2019, 12:46:05 AM
Hi Simon, thanks for your explanation!
I was just wondering though, why do we need to stop fertilizing them as early as September...(as I understood his answer to Mark was dated September 23 2018).

Hope your time and effort to finding a better cherimoyas will be fruitful, and we all would be reaping the reward!
Good luck, Simon!
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: Mark in Texas on February 09, 2019, 09:32:36 AM
Being new to annonas would someone please explain the life cycle of cherimoya?  I have a very nice cocktail tree holding grafts of Behl's budwood, that in spite of my watering it (less than summer) and it getting a fresh dose of Osmocote recently..... it's dormant.  What's next?  Leaf drop, new leaf output, when do they flower?

I also have an Giant Atis sugar apple and cherimoya seedlings.

Thanks
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: spaugh on February 09, 2019, 09:44:51 AM
Being new to annonas would someone please explain the life cycle of cherimoya?  I have a very nice cocktail tree holding grafts of Behl's budwood, that in spite of my watering it (less than summer) and it getting a fresh dose of Osmocote recently..... it's dormant.  What's next?  Leaf drop, new leaf output, when do they flower?

I also have an Giant Atis sugar apple and cherimoya seedlings.

Thanks

Its normal.  They go semi dormant here too.  Then in March or April you can do some pruning and strip off the leaves of the nodes where you want new growth and that is where stems and flowers will grow from. 
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: Mark in Texas on February 09, 2019, 10:10:17 AM

Its normal.  They go semi dormant here too.  Then in March or April you can do some pruning and strip off the leaves of the nodes where you want new growth and that is where stems and flowers will grow from.

Thanks, that's the info I need.

I see where you guys are getting some nice rains!  Yay!
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: spaugh on February 09, 2019, 11:15:37 AM

Its normal.  They go semi dormant here too.  Then in March or April you can do some pruning and strip off the leaves of the nodes where you want new growth and that is where stems and flowers will grow from.

Thanks, that's the info I need.

I see where you guys are getting some nice rains!  Yay!

Yes, lots of rain and more on the way.  Mark, these other guys may have better advice on exactly what to do with your cherimoya.  I think winter feeding is pretty much not necessary as the plant loses vigor in the cold.  Probably spring and summer feedings makes more sense.  They seem to be salt sensitive also so don't get too carried away.
Title: Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
Post by: simon_grow on February 09, 2019, 08:19:09 PM
Sam, for full grown Cherimoya trees, they need very little Nitrogen input. Stopping Nitrogen input around September will help to control the overall size of the tree.

For my fruiting size Cherimoya, I feed it with 3-12-12 once a month throughout the year except October through March or April when the tree is beginning or in dormancy. I also feed it my Cherimoyas with Kelp emulsion, coffee grounds, earthworm castings and compost.

Mark, Cherimoya trees are pretty much Evergreen trees in SoCal except the months of March and April but this depends on where you are(climate) and how you care for your trees. If you do nothing, the tree may stay green and hold leaves year round.

I back off on Nitrogen fertilizer and watering around October because of our Winter rains and I significantly back off on watering around March. This is specific to where I live and I look for clues from my tree to tell me when to prep it to go dormant.

I prep it for dormancy when all the fruit are off the tree and the tree shows signs of pulling nutrients back from the leaves. The leaves will start to look like it is getting some interveinal chlorosis. Leaves will also start drying up and dropping on its own.

After it’s dormancy period, you will know when to gradually increase watering and fertilizing because you will see new growth or swollen buds from where the leaves have fallen off.

When the Cherimoya tree comes out of dormancy, the flowers will usually appear on the new growth.

Simon