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Messages - JoeReal

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51
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Heat Tolerance of Achachairu and mangosteen
« on: May 24, 2019, 11:45:05 AM »
Quote from: brian on May 23, 2019, 09:58:06 PM
I have two garcinia seedlings (~10in tall) in my greenhouse, with no shade.  My temp sensors read ~110F whenever it is bright and sunny outside.  They look happy, but I've only had them a month or two.

I'm not sure if northern greenhouse temps are meaningful compared to outside temps in hot climates.

I ran across a very interesting study that shows the achachairu seedlings, and perhaps the mangosteen too will really thrive and grow fastest with 50% sunshine shade. Full sunlight freezes their growth.



http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1983-40632018000400407&script=sci_arttext
ABSTRACT

The successful establishment of a Garcinia humilis orchard depends on planting high-quality seedlings. This study aimed to evaluate the effects of the shading level (0 %, 18 % and 50 %) and substrate composition on the formation of G. humilis seedlings. Four substrates (S) were evaluated combining different proportions (v:v) of soil (SO), cattle manure (CM), commercial substrate (CS), sand (SA) and fine grain vermiculite (FV): S1 = 0 % SO + 45 % CM + 20 % CS + 20 % SA + 15 % FV; S2 = 15 % SO + 30 % CM + 20 % CS + 20 % SA + 15 % FV; S3 = 30 % SO + 15 % CM + 20 % CS + 20 % SA + 15 % FV; S4 = 45 % SO + 0 % CM + 20 % CS + 20 % SA + 15 % FV. The experiment was conducted in a completely randomized design in each environment, being the environments compared by a joint analysis. The G. humilis seedlings with the highest quality were obtained in the environment with a 50 % shading screen. G. humilis seedlings do not grow when exposed to full sunlight and, therefore, the seedling production of this species with direct solar radiation, without some shading level, should not be recommended. Different combinations from the mixture of soil, cattle manure, commercial substrate, sand and fine grain vermiculite may be used in the formulation of substrates for G. humilis seedlings.

52
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Interesting Story about these two cold hardy avocados.
« on: May 24, 2019, 11:41:03 AM »
Quote from: Mark in Texas on May 24, 2019, 09:37:25 AM
Quote from: JoeReal on May 23, 2019, 04:17:45 PM
First I did research on where the cold hardiest oldest trees are found and when they bear fruits. So during the fruiting season, I looked at the forecast if it is windy. If that afternoon to evening is windy, I schedule a very early morning trip to those trees and then pick up their fruits from the ground. Most of these trees are in public parks and if on private properties, some of their branches extends to the roads and so I pick up the fruits, and I ripen them, got to taste them too, and then use their seeds as rootstocks.

Now I have many cold hardy avocados grafted on to those seedling rootstocks and as they bear fruits, I use the seeds to experiment if they make excellent rootstocks. I usually started them by germinating them during the winter on potting media, and left outside. I have produced many cold hardy seedlings this way. I will have plenty to experiment from my first generation fruits.

Damn, that's what I call passion.  Good on ya!   If I wasn't getting too old for this chit I'd reinvent the wheel with Nuevo Leon and Oxaca Mexican Criolo avocados, growing and selections. I have a connection thru a friend who knows a Mexican avocado grower who grows and sells varieties of the old landrace Mexican cold hardy Criolo avocado trees.  He's offered my friend scions.  i backed out of her request to graft different named varieties due to the risk of customs and other issues such as disease/insect contamination, which I guess you could get around with a quarantine drill.  She would basically have to smuggle them across is what she's telling me.  Here's one such avocado hanging from one of his trees.  These Mexican and Guatemalan avocados come in all shapes in sizes from ping pong ball size to 2 pounders.



Here's a partially censored variety script he sells beginning with the words "Tengo...." aka "I have....."



I wonder what his "egg of the bull" variety tastes like.   ;D

The egg of the bull might just be the shape and size. After all, the original word for avocado is 'testicle'.  Nahuatl name for the indigenous avocado fruit is āhuacatl, that also means “testicle.”

That would be interesting... All those cultivars.  All of the avocados that the US have were originally smuggled in from other countries, mostly from South America and Mexico. The endemic ones were from seedlings of the smuggled ones of ancient days. When US was not yet formed, people from Americas moved about and brought with them plants and animals. Of course those that have established avocado orchards wanted protection.

I don't know of any existing quarantines on avocados, since they're not a major agricultural crop of the US.

 

53
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Heat Tolerance of Achachairu and mangosteen
« on: May 23, 2019, 05:17:17 PM »
What's the heat tolerance of Achachairu? I plan to bring my potted Achachairu outside in 50% shade after the frosts are over but our summer temps can go over the century mark for weeks at a time, sometimes hitting 120F. What has been the experience of people growing these? Or at least some literature that talks about the temperature tolerance.

I've read somewhere that Mangosteen can't tolerate heat above 100F, so I'd like to know if anyone can confirm this.



54
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Interesting Story about these two cold hardy avocados.
« on: May 23, 2019, 04:17:45 PM »
Quote from: zephian on May 23, 2019, 03:39:11 PM
Joe,
were did you source your seeds? I'm working on mounding up and planting my avocados and would love to experiment with an in ground seedling but out here all I can find is Hass fruit.

Thanks,

First I did research on where the cold hardiest oldest trees are found and when they bear fruits. So during the fruiting season, I looked at the forecast if it is windy. If that afternoon to evening is windy, I schedule a very early morning trip to those trees and then pick up their fruits from the ground. Most of these trees are in public parks and if on private properties, some of their branches extends to the roads and so I pick up the fruits, and I ripen them, got to taste them too, and then use their seeds as rootstocks.

Now I have many cold hardy avocados grafted on to those seedling rootstocks and as they bear fruits, I use the seeds to experiment if they make excellent rootstocks. I usually started them by germinating them during the winter on potting media, and left outside. I have produced many cold hardy seedlings this way. I will have plenty to experiment from my first generation fruits.

55
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Interesting Story about these two cold hardy avocados.
« on: May 23, 2019, 12:43:40 PM »
Quote from: spaugh on May 23, 2019, 12:35:08 PM
I agree with the bottom line part Joe.  Thats what counts.  The hass looks like hass.  They look very green still.  I suspect it will get very black of left on the tree longer.

If left longer, the flavor will also improve further compared to store bought Hass. Anyway, that is one cold hardy tree because the leaves don't even get frost bite. The house that has the tree is being sold, so I am getting as much scionwood as I can and give them away to people willing to try. I haven't encountered a Hass Type that is as cold hardy as this one.

56
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Interesting Story about these two cold hardy avocados.
« on: May 23, 2019, 12:31:50 PM »
Quote from: ricshaw on May 23, 2019, 12:04:57 PM
It sounds very possible that neither of the above are true Mexicola or Hass varieties.

You can call it anything you want, you can spend a fortune for DNA or genetic testing, I won't care much.

As for me, it really doesn't matter. If it tastes good, it is able to endure our cold winters and producing fruits every year, then it's a winner. And that's the bottom line.


57
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Interesting Story about these two cold hardy avocados.
« on: May 23, 2019, 11:37:14 AM »
Quote from: spaugh on May 23, 2019, 11:15:32 AM
Joe, they (mexicola) seem to be all seed and no flesh for me.  And they hang on the tree about a week at the most before falling off and becoming bird and mouse food.  And its hardly flowering here while every other tree is overloaded with flowers. 

I've never heard anyone say they would take mexicola over hass.  Makes me wonder if you are only comparing to store bought hass.  Im pretty sure a proper hass will mop the floor with most avocados. 

Speaking of hass, whats the deal with growing them in your area joe?  Can it be done?  Or if not what is the problem?  The heat, the cold, both?  I read the central valley farmers really want to grow avocados but hass wont grow there.  I grew up in Stockton/san joaquin county by the way and never grew avocados until moving to san diego county.

It's funny that my Mexicola here has way more flesh than seeds. Maybe you got the wrong type of Mexicola, or maybe my Mexicola was mislabeled. But whatever, the one I have has smooth skin, you can eat the dark skin, and it is cold hardy, and the leaves has the distinctive Anise aroma. I grafted mine, by taking it from a very mature Mexicola tree of our friend nearby city.

Funny that you asked about the Hass. Just one arctic blast in our area, it could kill the Hass back to the ground.

And in one of those Arctic Blasts, about a decade ago, a friend of ours have the Hass avocado died back to the ground, so they cut it, but not below the graft line. Then it resprouted, above the graft line that year, and grew without any winter damages thereafter. For the past 4-5 years, it has been producing more and more fruits each year. I called it Lynn's Cold Hardy Hass and has grafted it to my collection of Cold Hardy Avocados. So far the grafts took and it showed the characteristically very large Hass leaves similar to during it's juvenile stage as I took the wood from a juvenile branch so I can have more vigorous growth during the first year to catch up with the rest of the cultivars grafted together.

Anyway, I have the pictures of the fruits from my friend's tree and have been giving away scionwood to fellow CRFG members that are interested in order to validate it's cold hardiness.  The taste of the fruit is similar to Hass, it has rough skin like the Hass, only that the skin doesn't develop a really dark skin color like the Hass when ripe. It's dark green with hue of purple, but more towards the green color. The flavor is similar to Hass. Holler if you want to try it there too. I am spreading it around for evaluation.

Here's what I posted in Facebook:
"Lynn Sharman’s cold hardy avocado in West Sacramento. It’s originally a Hass avocado that died down one cold winter, and was cut to a stump above its graft line and resprouted back from the stump cold hardy. It grew and bore fruits for the last 5 years and never bothered again by frosts or freezes thereafter. The tree seems to be self-fertile (has type A & B flowers on different parts of the tree) as it bore a lot of fruits even though there are no other avocados nearby. It’s fruits are delicious with smooth buttery texture similar to Hass and no fibers. Unlike Hass, it’s tough thick skin don’t turn dark when ripe. It has good shelf life and doesn’t bruise easily even when dropped. Thanks to Lynn for the fruits as I will try their seeds as rootstocks. I took as much scionwood for grafting as her house would be up for sale, along with the avocado "










58
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Interesting Story about these two cold hardy avocados.
« on: May 23, 2019, 10:37:06 AM »
I love the flavor of Mexicola and found them to be much better, smooth and more refined than Hass. A lot of factors can influence the flavor though. Where grown, type of soil, water, fertilizer, weather pattern, age of the tree... it is like wine. Taste of the fruit can vary from place to place and how it as cared for. If you don't like the fruit, graft over it with something you may like.

59
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Royal Rainier Cherries
« on: May 23, 2019, 10:09:49 AM »
Royal Rainier Cherries are loaded and almost ready that the birds are having a hard time eating it all! 😁. Actually they’re already very good eating. Hasn’t reached peak flavor yet.

This tree is actually 15-n-1 cherry tree. About 95% of the canopy is Rainier because I turn them into wine. The others I just maintain to be a couple of feet long branches, enough to give me samples for evaluating their fruits.










60
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Interesting Story about these two cold hardy avocados.
« on: May 23, 2019, 10:04:30 AM »
Quote from: Mark in Texas on May 23, 2019, 09:56:46 AM
Truly amazing and well planned Joe.  I've heard nothing but good things about the Mexicola.  No, it's not in the same class as many of SoCal avocado hybrids but it's a helluva better than the "Tex-Mex" avocados they push here in Texas: Fantastic/Pryor Avocado, Brazos Belle or Wilma. Joey is another one that's crap. 

Might try Reed.  You may have seen where mine took 18F for a short time and came back from stubs last year.  It's now 13' and flowering.

What nails our tropical fruit trees in Texas is the wild temp swings - 80F high one day, Arctic cold front moves in at night with a low of 26F the next morn.  Trees that have some age, are lignified (woody) and have been acclimated to cold can laugh at the cold hardiness ratings on the label or published in guidelines. 

Having said that, check out my little friend. Smallest praying mantis I've ever seen.  It's sitting on a new Kahalu'u graft.






So true about the wild swings.  There's one thing that I like about Fantastic/Pryor Avocado, Brazos Belle or Wilma and Joey: they make very good rootstocks here! They're better as a rootstocks than the ones that came from the stores. Wilma for example produce a ton of avocados, with mostly seeds instead of pulp (big seed to flesh ratio), but their seeds can still sprout in late winter when planted outside and is able to tolerate our toxic city water.

One of these days, I might be able to plant more exotic avocados like your Kahalu'u when I find space for a greenhouse!

61
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: grafting Luc's Garcinia onto G. brasiliensis rootstock (mangosteen relative)
« on: May 22, 2019, 12:13:48 PM »
It's better to use the 70% alcohol than the 91% or 40% alcohol for sanitation. The 91% alcohol evaporates too quickly that sometimes, the time of contact for the kill isn't enough. The 40% on the other hand is very slow to evaporate. The 70% is just right. This was gleaned from the experience of various horticultural researchers.

62
Citrus General Discussion / Re: HLB Found Near UCR Citrus Collection
« on: May 21, 2019, 12:23:57 PM »
The latest status as of March 2019 about the Doomsday Vault isn't very promising!

https://www.inverse.com/article/54416-why-did-we-assume-the-permafrost-would-stay-permanently-frozen

63
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Oranges And Its Sugar Content
« on: May 21, 2019, 10:41:04 AM »
The best source of highly credible studies would be from the Biomedical Journals compiled by the National Institute of Health.  Always treat all results with caution, as most of these are scientific research and it would take many years, testing and replication before it becomes established science.

Bookmark this one:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed

64
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Interesting Story about these two cold hardy avocados.
« on: May 20, 2019, 04:02:03 PM »
I have found out that the first seeds of the Aravaipa avocado germinated during the winter here in our area, I planted them in small cups, outside, fully exposed to the elements. The Duke seeds sprouted much later, only after it consistently got above 40F. 

It seems that the Aravaipa seedlings are able to take our boron toxic and saline alkaline city water very well, showed no signs of salt damage at all. Duke seedlings also, but then the Aravaipa grows more vigorously.  I'll experiment on them as avocado rootstocks.

All the avocados that I got from the big box stores has already died and I am suspecting that the rootstocks used aren't really suited to our area. The trees that are sold don't have the name of the rootstock used.


65
Tropical Vegetables and Other Edibles / Re: Potent anti-tumor compound in Brassica oleracea var. italica
« on: May 20, 2019, 03:51:39 PM »
Quote from: pineislander on May 19, 2019, 12:34:05 PM
Quote
But don't head to the farmer's market just yet; first author Yu-Ru Lee, PhD, a member of the Pandolfi lab, notes you'd have to eat nearly 6 pounds of Brussels sprouts a day -- and uncooked ones at that -- to reap their potential anti-cancer benefit.
I checked around and found you can supplement with IC3

The best are still the natural form instead of purified extracts in pills that sometimes don't work. I believe that there's better quality in diversity if the nutraceuticals aren't in pure form as the different components harmonizes with each other from a natural source such as a real vegetable. Besides, you get to enjoy them too!

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180528171511.htm?fbclid=IwAR2kR9_8aRXZx9AJ9whiyV-gTNRBaHEtdtnYghKXSzeLEnCxuXeI2BeWFZg

66
Tropical Vegetables and Other Edibles / Potent anti-tumor compound in Brassica oleracea var. italica
« on: May 17, 2019, 01:31:01 PM »
Another scientific finding that shows why Broccoli is good for you! It awakens a potent system in your body that suppresses tumors! And the mechanism of these natural compounds can have other applications in the general fight against cancers. I'd grow more organic broccolis!

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190516142913.htm

67
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Epigenetics and heritable effects of grafting...
« on: May 17, 2019, 10:37:29 AM »
I can understand why many people are skeptical of epigenetics, but last year alone, there are more than 2,500 refereed scientific articles alone that dealt with it. Some of my friends with graduate or medical degrees have specialized on it and produced irrefutable results and even commercial products. So for me, it can't be dismissed. I even witnessed several instances of cold hardy avocados resulting from environmental stresses, right in my backyard and other people, and that's why I was able to grow and fruit avocados in our area.  Recently I evaluated a tree of my friend, and have found a potentially Cold Hardy Hass Avocado, which resulted from the arctic blast event about a decade ago and the tree is producing Hass type avocados and was never damaged by any frosts for the past 4 years or so, and has increasing yield each year. I have added it into my collection. I have discussed the details in other forums and I can link it here.

Here's the perception about epigenetics: 
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature05913

And there are about 318,000 hits in Google Scholar for epigenetics.

And in the National Institute of Health Biomedical Databases, there are about 29,692 recent articles that talked about epigenetics.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=epigenetics



68
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Epigenetics and heritable effects of grafting...
« on: May 17, 2019, 10:18:15 AM »
Quote from: pvaldes on May 17, 2019, 07:40:14 AM
> the grafting combo can alter the grafted plants epigenetically and the result can be inheritable for self-pollinated plants or having true-to-type progenies

Epigenetics Is pseudoscience and was not proven. It hangs on the reality that there are external methods for modifying DNA like virus and plasmids, but this is a really small, non functional and normally negligible part. Most accidental mutations and modifications are non heritable  and discarded at gametes level.

If rootstocks would put any trace of DNA on the grafted plants, all new orange cultivars would be hybrids of Citrange at this moment, all new pears would be quince pear hybrids, and all roses would be of pink color. This is obviously not happening.

The evidences aren't very strong for the case of most grafts, especially in the Solanaceous family, but the biomarkers for the resulting progenies and subsequent scionwood means that they can't be dismissed easily either.

69
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Epigenetics and heritable effects of grafting...
« on: May 17, 2019, 10:15:16 AM »
Quote from: SeaWalnut on May 17, 2019, 06:45:52 AM
Epigenetics its a controversial domain but you know much better than me about grafts and im willing to learn about the issue.Im also interested in genetics of the plants regarding cold hardiness but im following another route by studying plant fossils to havr an idea about the newer species.For example in europe we used to have Dalbergia rosewoods species that now are extinct and i think somme of the extant species today might still have somme of those genes.
The most interesting thing about genetics wich is a mistery ,its why the flora and fauna in China are soo much related to the east American ones.

Wow, very nice!

70
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Epigenetics and heritable effects of grafting...
« on: May 17, 2019, 12:36:49 AM »
Quote from: SeaWalnut on May 16, 2019, 07:49:19 PM
I dont think its possible.Lets say if a plant breeds sexually then it would have the ADN of the father from pollen available to travel and make changes to the mother .In animals and even in humans its well documented that somme ADN of the father passes from the fetus to the mother spine marrow.But animals are a lot more complex than plants.

My friend, read up on epigenetics. It’s how we got some of our avocados to become cold hardy and the  trait became inheritable, not only from the subsequent scionwood but also the seeds when some genes were triggered to be expressed from external factors.

71
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Epigenetics and heritable effects of grafting...
« on: May 16, 2019, 06:00:03 PM »
Quote from: shaneatwell on May 16, 2019, 05:51:13 PM
A little off topic, but do you know of Glycosmis is compatible with any citrus? Either as rootstock or scion.

No experience yet with those.

72
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: My 160-n-1 tree this season
« on: May 16, 2019, 05:29:36 PM »
Quote from: Tropicalnut on May 16, 2019, 05:06:33 PM
Amazing! Congratulations.
I have a hard time just trying to graft mango to mango :( What's your secret???

The secret is that there's no secret!

It may have a lot to do with the timing. Different species have different best times to graft depending where your plant is. I can talk based on my experience in our area.


73
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Epigenetics and heritable effects of grafting...
« on: May 16, 2019, 04:33:25 PM »
I do a lot of interspecific grafting (32 species of prunus grafted together), sometimes inter-genera grafting (Eriobotrya, Cydonia, Malus,Pyrus, Crataeugus, Aronia... or Microcitrus, Eremocitrus, Citrus, Fortunella...). I just encountered a scientific paper showing that the grafting combo can alter the grafted plants epigenetically and the result can be inheritable for self-pollinated plants or having true-to-type progenies. I'll have to review this paper again when I have the time. I just skimmed through it. My 160-n-1 tree may have inheritable changes that can be passed on already, either the subsequent scionwood or of course, the seeds from these are dramatically random hybrids.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0061995

74
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Bark inversion tutorial
« on: May 16, 2019, 12:51:26 PM »
Quote from: brian on May 15, 2019, 04:29:13 PM
I just tried it on a tree with fresh new growth but the bark band started breaking into pieces as I was removing it so I stopped 1/3 of the way through and put the pieces back.  I feel like the bark on my trees is never slipping enough to graft.

It would still have an effect, although mild. The scoring and the 1/3 removal and putting back would be equal to mild girdling technique.

75
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Oranges And Its Sugar Content
« on: May 16, 2019, 12:49:08 PM »
Quote from: SoCal2warm on May 15, 2019, 08:36:07 PM
Fruit is healthy, but too much fruit, especially fruit juice since there's no fiber to slow down the absorption of sugar, is not.
Also fructose is notorious for not being as healthy for you metabolically as glucose (lots of fructose will make you tired and drained of energy, and much more likely to turn directly into stored fat).

Health is all about proper balance of the different food groups.

A small glass of orange juice every day is great and will add to your life. (Assuming you don't already have too much sugar from other things)

Here's an article about sugars in the fruits. I don't drink fruit juices and would rather eat, bite and chew the fruits. I'm never a fan of juicing fruits and veggies for these very reasons:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/the-sugar-in-fruit-doesnt-make-it-bad-for-you-despite-some-trendy-diet-claims/2019/04/15/5ad3ef84-5b12-11e9-a00e-050dc7b82693_story.html?fbclid=IwAR3JdGHqpwdxql-6ksKTOJ8aB85GYJa6lZuuTQ_ehad0GPNnDwfbnAX8Xy8&utm_term=.04e7695615f2

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/is-fruit-good-or-bad-for-your-health

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