The Tropical Fruit Forum

Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: zands on August 05, 2014, 07:27:45 AM

Title: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: zands on August 05, 2014, 07:27:45 AM
I would like to know what new Zills are poly-embryonic especially the Sweet Tart?
How about a
mono
vs
poly
breakdown
on the new Zill mangoes which will be useful to many who want to plant seeds. Just to plant seeds/experiment and due to no access to the grafted trees

I'll start with Orange Sherbet which is poly-embryonic. Same w Lemon Zesty
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: bsbullie on August 05, 2014, 07:54:56 AM
Sweet Tart is mono.  The Coconut Cream seeds I have seen germinate have been coming up poly, which is odd as its parents are both mono.

If you hsve plenty of time and space and want to pkant seeds for experiments or just for shits and giggles,  then great but otherwise why are people planting seeds?  With the time, effort  and aforementioned space, just buy grafted trees.  They are available and while they may cost more for some, it will still save monetarily in the long run.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: wslau on August 05, 2014, 11:07:41 AM
The Coconut Cream seeds I have seen germinate have been coming up poly, which is odd as its parents are both mono.


Interesting...this is the first that I have heard that Coconut Cream is poly.  Thanks for sharing the info.
Genetics is a weird thing... i.e. Duncan being mono while having a poly parent (NDM).
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: bsbullie on August 05, 2014, 11:17:33 AM
The Coconut Cream seeds I have seen germinate have been coming up poly, which is odd as its parents are both mono.


Interesting...this is the first that I have heard that Coconut Cream is poly.  Thanks for sharing the info.
Genetics is a weird thing... i.e. Duncan being mono while having a poly parent (NDM).

According to the paper written by David Sturrock, Duncan's parents were Edward x Pico No. 18 (a Philippine).

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CGUQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffshs.org%2Fproceedings-o%2F1969-vol-82%2F318-321%2520(STURROCK).pdf&ei=T_TgU5XJNJC1yATK0YDQDg&usg=AFQjCNEiu3TpWe1SENjFrZisp9b8TxSpEQ&sig2=t9VHzVZ4dTygpNpP3P7M8g&bvm=bv.72197243,d.aWw (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CGUQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffshs.org%2Fproceedings-o%2F1969-vol-82%2F318-321%2520(STURROCK).pdf&ei=T_TgU5XJNJC1yATK0YDQDg&usg=AFQjCNEiu3TpWe1SENjFrZisp9b8TxSpEQ&sig2=t9VHzVZ4dTygpNpP3P7M8g&bvm=bv.72197243,d.aWw)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: DurianLover on August 05, 2014, 11:40:20 AM
Probably Zands started this thread for people in other countries. Having so many choices in S. FL its easy to forget about less fortunate.

Fruit Punch? That's the only one I want to know.

I think wslau takes his info from Wiki. I recently looked up this myself. My interest peaked when I thought NDM and Duncan are the only two FL mangoes with gelatinous texture, although gelatinous on both mangoes isn't exactly the same.
Here is from wiki: "The original tree was grown from a seed planted in 1956 by David Sturrock of West Palm Beach, Florida. Sturrock had written in 1969 that it had been a cross of Edward and Pico,[1] but a 2005 pedigree analysis indicated that Nam Doc Mai was the likely parent.[2] This explanation is challenging because Nam Doc Mai was not introduced into Florida until the 1970s, and that Duncan is monoembryonic while Nam Doc Mai is polyembryonic"
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: ricshaw on August 05, 2014, 11:44:43 AM
If you hsve plenty of time and space and want to pkant seeds for experiments or just for shits and giggles,  then great but otherwise why are people planting seeds?  With the time, effort  and aforementioned space, just buy grafted trees.  They are available and while they may cost more for some, it will still save monetarily in the long run.

I don't get it ether unless somebody plants hundreds of seeds.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: bsbullie on August 05, 2014, 12:59:07 PM
Probably Zands started this thread for people in other countries. Having so many choices in S. FL its easy to forget about less fortunate.

Fruit Punch? That's the only one I want to know.

I think wslau takes his info from Wiki. I recently looked up this myself. My interest peaked when I thought NDM and Duncan are the only two FL mangoes with gelatinous texture, although gelatinous on both mangoes isn't exactly the same.
Here is from wiki: "The original tree was grown from a seed planted in 1956 by David Sturrock of West Palm Beach, Florida. Sturrock had written in 1969 that it had been a cross of Edward and Pico,[1] but a 2005 pedigree analysis indicated that Nam Doc Mai was the likely parent.[2] This explanation is challenging because Nam Doc Mai was not introduced into Florida until the 1970s, and that Duncan is monoembryonic while Nam Doc Mai is polyembryonic"

I believe from the few I have seen, it is mono.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: bsbullie on August 05, 2014, 01:02:39 PM
Probably Zands started this thread for people in other countries. Having so many choices in S. FL its easy to forget about less fortunate.

Fruit Punch? That's the only one I want to know.

I think wslau takes his info from Wiki. I recently looked up this myself. My interest peaked when I thought NDM and Duncan are the only two FL mangoes with gelatinous texture, although gelatinous on both mangoes isn't exactly the same.
Here is from wiki: "The original tree was grown from a seed planted in 1956 by David Sturrock of West Palm Beach, Florida. Sturrock had written in 1969 that it had been a cross of Edward and Pico,[1] but a 2005 pedigree analysis indicated that Nam Doc Mai was the likely parent.[2] This explanation is challenging because Nam Doc Mai was not introduced into Florida until the 1970s, and that Duncan is monoembryonic while Nam Doc Mai is polyembryonic"


The key word is "likely" in the phrase, "but a 2005 pedigree analysis indicated that Nam Doc Mai was the likely parent".  I would not necessarily heed creedance to any of that 2005 analysis.  I am going to tend to stick with what David Sturrock wrote until proven otherwise.  I would like to see someone/someplace like Fairchild invest in and have DNA analysis performed on all of these to try and show true parentage.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Squam256 on August 05, 2014, 02:26:11 PM
That USDA analysis relied on a flawed/out-dated grove map and wound up producing some bad results. Duncan absolutely does not have NDM in its parentage.

Fairchild isn't even using the USDA for the genetic analysis on their new crosses; they're outsourcing it to the Israelis.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: bsbullie on August 05, 2014, 02:41:22 PM
That USDA analysis relied on a flawed/out-dated grove map and wound up producing some bad results. Duncan absolutely does not have NDM in its parentage.

Fairchild isn't even using the USDA for the genetic analysis on their new crosses; they're outsourcing it to the Israelis.

Are you confident, as I would expect it to be correct, at the accuracy of David's publishing in it being an Edward x Pico?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: wslau on August 05, 2014, 02:46:15 PM
I did get my info from the 2005 FL pedigree analysis chart, NOT wiki.
Well, its good to know that the pedigree analysis had some flaws and thus has to be carefully applied.

But in any case, I'm still intrigued by Rob's observation on a poly coconut cream.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: MangoFang on August 05, 2014, 03:17:47 PM
Yeah!

CC is Poly!!!!!!


Gary
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on August 05, 2014, 06:00:35 PM
I planted my FL seeds today (hooray!) and it appears that ZINC is poly.  Not the usual SE Asian poly look but it looked segmented to me.  Piña Colada also if I recall. 
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: bsbullie on August 05, 2014, 06:22:20 PM
I planted my FL seeds today (hooray!) and it appears that ZINC is poly.  Not the usual SE Asian poly look but it looked segmented to me.  Piña Colada also if I recall.

ZINC is mono.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Squam256 on August 09, 2014, 08:22:17 PM
Sweet tart is poly
(http://s22.postimg.cc/8xiwfr1d9/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/8xiwfr1d9/)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on August 09, 2014, 09:19:13 PM
Sweet tart is poly
(http://s22.postimg.cc/8xiwfr1d9/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/8xiwfr1d9/)

This is good to know. Thanks.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: JF on August 09, 2014, 10:35:10 PM
LZ is mono


(http://s9.postimg.cc/sjwla0x3f/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/sjwla0x3f/)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 10, 2014, 02:01:50 PM
JF, are you pulling our legs? My LZ has at least two sprouts coming out.

Simon
(http://s13.postimg.cc/wfl0sn6pv/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/wfl0sn6pv/)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: fyliu on August 10, 2014, 03:03:03 PM
Wouldn't looking at the seed give a pretty good idea if it's poly? If you see more than 2 patches or more than 1 pink dot...
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 10, 2014, 05:55:07 PM
Hey Fang,

That is a good idea but I have seen Kent's with multiple sections in the seed. Come to think of it, I believe I've seen multiple sprouts from Kent's as well. The mystery deepens.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: JF on August 10, 2014, 05:59:19 PM
JF, are you pulling our legs? My LZ has at least two sprouts coming out.

Simon
(http://s13.postimg.cc/wfl0sn6pv/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/wfl0sn6pv/)

Nope, that's a Florida seed from our friend Zands. The word from the Fairchild camp.... it's monoembryonic
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on August 10, 2014, 10:17:22 PM
JF, are you pulling our legs? My LZ has at least two sprouts coming out.

Simon
(http://s13.postimg.cc/wfl0sn6pv/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/wfl0sn6pv/)

I was thinking the same thing. I have planted so many seeds lady week that my memory may be hazy but I am one LZ is poly camp...for now.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 11, 2014, 12:59:27 AM
I just dumped out my LZ seed and there are definitely two sprouts coming out. Perhaps they are both from sexual reproduction? Each sprout appears to be attached to half of the cotyledon. One sprout for each half of the seed. Please see my Lemon Zest Seedling Project post for pictures.
Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: ericalynne on August 11, 2014, 08:40:42 PM
I grow mangos from seed. I live in zone 9. A serious freeze kills the tree down to the graft, leaving me with root stock only. The seedlings will come back.
Erica
Zone 9
Venus, FL
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: zands on August 11, 2014, 10:32:02 PM
I just dumped out my LZ seed and there are definitely two sprouts coming out. Perhaps they are both from sexual reproduction? Each sprout appears to be attached to half of the cotyledon. One sprout for each half of the seed. Please see my Lemon Zest Seedling Project post for pictures.
Simon

I have said it before......
I think some of these new Zills are mono-poly hybrids that can go either way within a given variety. Such as LZ for example. Some LZ seeds will sprout mono and some sprout poly. Or like what you have
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: bsbullie on August 12, 2014, 07:12:34 AM
Is anybody here positive that PPK is poly?  From what I understand,  all his trials were done with mono varieties.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 12, 2014, 08:25:51 AM
Thanks for the information Zands, that would explain why some people are getting single sprouts and yet others are getting multiple sprouts.

Rob, I wonder if PPK is really poly? With the great following of PPK mango lovers out there, I would think some of us mangoholics would have planted some seeds of this variety.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: bsbullie on August 12, 2014, 10:13:50 AM
I have seen multiple shoots on mono seeds.   That doesnt mean its poly.  You have to look at ghe shoot to determine if its a clonal shoot or sexually produced.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: zands on August 12, 2014, 11:50:48 AM
Thanks for the information Zands, that would explain why some people are getting single sprouts and yet others are getting multiple sprouts.

Rob, I wonder if PPK is really poly? With the great following of PPK mango lovers out there, I would think some of us mangoholics would have planted some seeds of this variety.

Simon

PPK is a SE Asian mango so it should be poly. I see no reason why not. The LZ seed is elongated like an NDM seed but fatter. Elongated seed= poly indication. Or poly some of the time at least for LZ.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: bsbullie on August 12, 2014, 01:32:12 PM
Thanks for the information Zands, that would explain why some people are getting single sprouts and yet others are getting multiple sprouts.

Rob, I wonder if PPK is really poly? With the great following of PPK mango lovers out there, I would think some of us mangoholics would have planted some seeds of this variety.

Simon

PPK is a SE Asian mango so it should be poly. I see no reason why not. The LZ seed is elongated like an NDM seed but fatter. Elongated seed= poly indication. Or poly some of the time at least for LZ.

Mahachanok is mono...there goes your SE Asian/elongated seed theory.

I dont think there is a "poly some of the time"...its either mono or poly.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Guanabanus on August 12, 2014, 04:13:46 PM
Each sexually-produced embryo is a new variety, including in the characteristic of mono versus poly, but this won't be expressed until that plant becomes an adult and produces seeds of its own.   One wouldn't expect any observable effect of changing from mono to poly or vice versa in the seed that the embryo was formed in, as the pollen grain that fertilized the ovule would not be expected to affect any adjoining clonal embryos.

So I'm with BSBullie, not imagining how one tree could produce some poly seeds and some mono seeds.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on August 14, 2014, 11:41:17 AM
Thanks for the information Zands, that would explain why some people are getting single sprouts and yet others are getting multiple sprouts.

Rob, I wonder if PPK is really poly? With the great following of PPK mango lovers out there, I would think some of us mangoholics would have planted some seeds of this variety.

Simon

PPK is a SE Asian mango so it should be poly. I see no reason why not. The LZ seed is elongated like an NDM seed but fatter. Elongated seed= poly indication. Or poly some of the time at least for LZ.

Mahachanok is mono...there goes your SE Asian/elongated seed theory.

I dont think there is a "poly some of the time"...its either mono or poly.

Indeed there are some rare SE Asian monos and also some Indian polys.  Few and far between though.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: MangoFang on August 14, 2014, 03:18:14 PM
What's the word on Pina Colada - Polly want a cracker?????
Or mono y mono.....


Gary
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: bsbullie on August 14, 2014, 03:41:02 PM
What's the word on Pina Colada - Polly want a cracker?????
Or mono y mono.....


Gary

A fu fu drink made with rum, pineapple juice and cream of coconut.  Also a song sung by Rupert Holmes.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: MangoFang on August 14, 2014, 04:22:54 PM
thanks, Mr. Margaritaville!

 ;D
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: MangoFang on August 14, 2014, 06:37:27 PM
Does a picture have any answers?  On theright, an LZ seed,
on the left, a Pina Colada seed.  So....is it those striations/sections
at the northern tip of the seed that will tell you if it's a poly or not? 
If so, then the PC looks like it might be poly too......

Gary

(PS - sorry about the mediocre pic quality)




(http://s18.postimg.cc/6foehlthx/Seeds_PC_and_LZ_081414.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/6foehlthx/)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on August 14, 2014, 09:03:46 PM
Does a picture have any answers?  On theright, an LZ seed,
on the left, a Pina Colada seed.  So....is it those striations/sections
at the northern tip of the seed that will tell you if it's a poly or not? 
If so, then the PC looks like it might be poly too......

Gary

(PS - sorry about the mediocre pic quality)




(http://s18.postimg.cc/6foehlthx/Seeds_PC_and_LZ_081414.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/6foehlthx/)

Not the best pic but you can see the segments in the LZ that say poly.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: MangoFang on August 15, 2014, 02:03:03 PM
...and Future - what about the smaller pina colada seed?
Poly?


G
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on August 15, 2014, 04:36:43 PM
...and Future - what about the smaller pina colada seed?
Poly?


G

That is less clear in the photo but I know it is poly as I have several I planted recently.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: alexO on August 15, 2014, 04:43:07 PM
This is a seed from my one Coconut Cream mango is it poly?
(http://s9.postimg.cc/gep4d4m5n/IMG_20140815_163911.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/gep4d4m5n/)




(http://s3.postimg.cc/ug4hvpwe7/IMG_20140815_163918.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/ug4hvpwe7/)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 15, 2014, 07:27:42 PM
Each sexually-produced embryo is a new variety, including in the characteristic of mono versus poly, but this won't be expressed until that plant becomes an adult and produces seeds of its own.   One wouldn't expect any observable effect of changing from mono to poly or vice versa in the seed that the embryo was formed in, as the pollen grain that fertilized the ovule would not be expected to affect any adjoining clonal embryos.

So I'm with BSBullie, not imagining how one tree could produce some poly seeds and some mono seeds.

Hey Guanabanna,

Is it possible or common for a mango to have two sexually produced embryos in the same seed or can I assume there is a good likelihood that one of my Lemon Zest seedlings is a clone. My Lemon Zest seed has two sprouts coming out of the seed and each seedling appears to be attached to each half of the seed.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: MangoFang on August 15, 2014, 08:06:42 PM
Hey Alexo - yeah, I think that's what all those sections are -
a true poly-anna of the mango kingdom....

gary
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: bsbullie on August 15, 2014, 08:45:38 PM
Read back through, not sure where I posted but I have seen coconut cream be poly.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Guanabanus on August 15, 2014, 11:14:18 PM
It is perhaps possible that an embryo could be accidentally split into identical twins.  Maybe some other possibility?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Squam256 on August 16, 2014, 08:02:14 PM
Pina Colada appears to be poly as well.

edit, just saw mention above.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on September 13, 2014, 08:26:24 PM
Taralay appears to be mono although I have a seedling with 5 sprouts close inspection shows them all from the same base, single root....perhaps poly but separated too late?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 22, 2016, 03:06:07 AM
Sweet Tart, Lemon Zest and Coconut Cream appear to be poly from what I have seen.

Just wondering if anyone has planted out any seeds from a Zill poly mango and gotten any fruit yet?

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 22, 2016, 05:08:37 PM
Sweet Tart
(https://s32.postimg.cc/p7vl36qi9/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/p7vl36qi9/)
Lemon Zest

(https://s31.postimg.cc/rynlftep3/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/rynlftep3/)
Coconut Cream

(https://s32.postimg.cc/s9rppkakh/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/s9rppkakh/)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 22, 2016, 06:30:01 PM
For those living in colder climates or where access to seeds is the only source of plant material, poly seeds may be the way to go.

I recommend planting your poly seeds and keeping all sprouts and raising your tree as a multi trunked tree growing in close proximity. If they twist around each other and autograft, let them be. By keeping all sprouts, we avoid the entire confusing issue of which sprout is the clone. Stakeholders on both sides of the arguements have presented conflicting information and I have come to the conclusion that genetic markers are probably the only reliable 100% guaranteed way of determining which is the actual clone.

For the backyard grower, anything less than 100% accuracy is a waste of time in my opinion if you are after an actual clone of the original tree as you don't want to waste time if you selected the wrong seedling. With the technique of keeping all clones, you must ensure that you have at least two sprouts coming from different segments of the seed.

If two or more sprouts come out of the same section of seed, there is a possibility they are simply multiple shoots from the same seed.

In colder climates, planting poly seedlings may have the added advantage that it will not likely flower in the first couple years. This is a huge benefit for those of us wanting a larger tree that is more established before it begins to flower and fruit.

I currently have projects going for LZ, Sweet Tart and Coconut Cream. I prefer these ultra sweet varieties because I feel that even if they are not grown in ideal condition such as not full sun, poor nutrition, etc..., even if they do not reach their full potential of 25%Brix or higher, I would still be happy with their flavor at 20% Brix.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on July 22, 2016, 07:16:57 PM
It is not of true Zill origin but I noticed some segmentation this month on the Guava mango.  But not the usual poly look.  Any one else? 

Speaking to guanabanas he said look for the one shoot with different traits than all others.  It could be leaf shape, pattern, color etc.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 22, 2016, 08:15:11 PM
Future, if I tecall correctly, you planted several poly seeds back home. How are they growing for you? Do your LZ seedlings have the typical wavy look like the parent tree?

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Cookie Monster on July 22, 2016, 08:51:36 PM
Yah, those seeds look polyembryonic.

The quickest way to go from seed to fruit is to chop back a mature mango tree and topwork to it. Seedlings will flower in 18 - 30 months vs 5 - 8 years if sown in the ground. But you need to topwork a portion of the tree that has very high vigor (not just a random branch tip).

To avoid the possibility of getting an off type, you can simply topwork your tree with 2 or 3 seedlings.

However, if you have access to budwood (as should be case with sweet tart and lemon zest), you are probably better off just utilizing budwood from a grafted tree.

If you're of the adventurous type, you could select a seedling that has characteristics which are different from the mother tree vs trying to find the asexual embryos and simply producing one more clone of the same tree. For example, you could try to find a lemon zest seedling with a different leaf shape (but with the same citrussy smelling sap), which could yield another hit like the orange sherbet -- and you could name it Simon's Sherbet :-).
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 22, 2016, 10:51:21 PM
Simons sherbet, I don't even want to go there, lol!

Jeff, my problem is that our trees here in SoCal fruit too soon and continue flowering for half the year if not longer.  I hope that by planting seedlings and not having to graft them, this will enable them to grow vegetatively without wasting energy on flowering.

 I recently top worked one of Leos trees with one of his special creations and put it on a vigorous rootstock that is probably 10+ years old. I will see if he wants me to topworked one of his other established trees with some of the top rated varieties from Florida. unfortunately, Leo is getting a little sensitive to sugar so I'll be looking more for varieties that are sweet but not ultra sweet, at least for Leos yard.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on July 29, 2016, 07:42:26 PM
Future, if I tecall correctly, you planted several poly seeds back home. How are they growing for you? Do your LZ seedlings have the typical wavy look like the parent tree?

Simon

I do have the wavy leaf!
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 30, 2016, 12:53:17 AM
Thanks for the confirmation. I've recently read a lot about polyembryonic mangos and I really feel that seedlings are a viable option for people wanting trees to grow larger before flowering or for those that can't get a specific variety any other way. Genetic differences in clones may give an even better mango than the original parent as the Lemon Meringue gave rise to the Lemon Zest and Orange Sherbet.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on July 30, 2016, 12:43:09 PM
Thanks for the confirmation. I've recently read a lot about polyembryonic mangos and I really feel that seedlings are a viable option for people wanting trees to grow larger before flowering or for those that can't get a specific variety any other way. Genetic differences in clones may give an even better mango than the original parent as the Lemon Meringue gave rise to the Lemon Zest and Orange Sherbet.

Simon

Tying branches down is said to produce double the trunk thickness in the same time.  Girdling is another way to speed up time to production from seed. 
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: JF on July 30, 2016, 12:53:33 PM
Thanks for the confirmation. I've recently read a lot about polyembryonic mangos and I really feel that seedlings are a viable option for people wanting trees to grow larger before flowering or for those that can't get a specific variety any other way. Genetic differences in clones may give an even better mango than the original parent as the Lemon Meringue gave rise to the Lemon Zest and Orange Sherbet.

Simon

Simon
I don't consider LZ superior than its parent. PPK is much more consistent and better tasting in my opinion
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on July 30, 2016, 01:01:28 PM
Thanks for the confirmation. I've recently read a lot about polyembryonic mangos and I really feel that seedlings are a viable option for people wanting trees to grow larger before flowering or for those that can't get a specific variety any other way. Genetic differences in clones may give an even better mango than the original parent as the Lemon Meringue gave rise to the Lemon Zest and Orange Sherbet.

Simon

Simon
I don't consider LZ superior than its parent. PPK is much more consistent and better tasting in my opinion

JF - this is borderline blasphemous. (I'm joking). 

I am told one theory on why Walter Zills LZ tree has been struck so hard by disease the last two years is the degree of worship of the LZ.

All hail the LZ!

(PPK is tough to beat on flavour.  And was more consistent for me this summer.  I do give LZ a edge, by the slimmest of margins, on flavour). 
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: JF on July 30, 2016, 01:08:46 PM
Thanks for the confirmation. I've recently read a lot about polyembryonic mangos and I really feel that seedlings are a viable option for people wanting trees to grow larger before flowering or for those that can't get a specific variety any other way. Genetic differences in clones may give an even better mango than the original parent as the Lemon Meringue gave rise to the Lemon Zest and Orange Sherbet.

Simon

Simon
I don't consider LZ superior than its parent. PPK is much more consistent and better tasting in my opinion

JF - this is borderline blasphemous. (I'm joking). 

I am told one theory on why Walter Zills LZ tree has been struck so hard by disease the last two years is the degree of worship of the LZ.

All hail the LZ!

(PPK is tough to beat on flavour.  And was more consistent for me this summer.  I do give LZ a edge, by the slimmest of margins, on flavour).

Future
Funny😀
I've had some really good LZ in the last 3-4 years,. PPK has always been consistently excellent. I do agree in a good LZ year that mango is hard to beat.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 31, 2016, 12:33:16 AM
Thanks for the confirmation. I've recently read a lot about polyembryonic mangos and I really feel that seedlings are a viable option for people wanting trees to grow larger before flowering or for those that can't get a specific variety any other way. Genetic differences in clones may give an even better mango than the original parent as the Lemon Meringue gave rise to the Lemon Zest and Orange Sherbet.

Simon

Simon
I don't consider LZ superior than its parent. PPK is much more consistent and better tasting in my opinion

Thanks for the heads up JF! I decided to finally put my Po Pyu Kalai into the ground. I really love the entire line of PPK and its offsprings and feel that this entire line of PPK, LZ and OS will make excellent candidates for seed propogation. I've got seeds of LZ planted in several of my friends and family's yards so hopefully we will get more citrusy ultra sweet mangos with a twist in the near future.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: behlgarden on August 01, 2016, 06:20:15 PM
LZ is mono


(http://s9.postimg.cc/sjwla0x3f/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/sjwla0x3f/)

Funny Frank, two LZ seeds I grew were both poly. these seeds were from tasting and I only had LZ and Coco Cream, both poly.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 01, 2016, 07:09:43 PM
I confirmed that LZ, Coconut Cream and Sweet Tart are all Polyembryonic at least sometimes. Out of all the LZ seeds i have, only one did not appear to have sectioned seeds. Here is my previous Lemon Zest Project: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=12023.25 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=12023.25) which shows I got multiple sprouts. Sometimes only one sprout comes out even if you have a multi sectioned seed because some of the seedlings are very weak. I've had embryos the size of a pinky fingernail in many instances.

Simon

Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 01, 2016, 07:16:21 PM
Sweet Tart
(https://s32.postimg.cc/ulfz51yhd/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ulfz51yhd/)

Lemon Zest
(https://s32.postimg.cc/ggzmb56sh/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ggzmb56sh/)

Coconut Cream

(https://s32.postimg.cc/5m4xychpt/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5m4xychpt/)
Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: mangomongo on December 31, 2016, 09:54:04 PM
I know I'm digging up an old thread but it sparked some curiosity.  Are the seeds mentioned really poly and is anyone growing them out with confidance that they will have clone of a CC,LZ or ST? 
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Garcinia on January 01, 2017, 12:47:28 AM
Interesting. The only mangoes I have from seed are polyembryonic.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Guanabanus on January 01, 2017, 12:01:04 PM
Remember, that with polyembrionic seeds, there is one embryo that was produced by plant sex, Pollination, and which, therefore is not a "clone." Even if the pollen came from another flower on the same tree, genetic re-shuffling has occurred.  A person can usually detect some difference, when caomparing to the other seedlings arising from the same polyembrionic seed.

The other seedlings from that seed are truly "clones", in other words, exact genetic copies of the mother tree, unless a mutation has occurred.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Tropicdude on May 25, 2017, 12:29:04 PM
Been trying to compile the data on some of the fruit mentioned,  If anyone can confirm the following.

Poly:
Sweet Tart
PPK
Coconut Cream
Lemon Zest
Cac
Orange Sherbet
Cotton Candy

Mono:
Kathy
Taralay
Edgar
Amy
Peach Cobbler

Have not found data for these  ( still reading through the posts ) , any input?
Honey Kiss
Venus
Fruit Punch
Phoenix
Seacrest
Providence
Juicy Peach
Little Gem
Nancy


I will edit this when new information comes in.

Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: behlgarden on May 25, 2017, 12:56:15 PM
Been trying to compile the data on some of the fruit mentioned,  If anyone can confirm the following.

Poly:
Sweet Tart ?
PPK
Coconut Cream
Lemon Zest


Mono:
Fruit Punch?


Have not found data for these  ( still reading through the posts ) , any input?
Honey Kiss
Venus
Fruit Punch
Cotton Candy
Phoenix
Kathy
Seacrest
Providence
Juicy Peach
Peach Cobbler
Little Gem
Nancy
Edgar

I will edit this when new information comes in.

I got multiple seedlings out of Lemon Zest and Coco Cream, and Sweet Tart. Single seedling out of Peach Cobbler.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: TnTrobbie on May 25, 2017, 01:11:25 PM
I have multiple Sweet Tart seedlings and they were all poly.
Edgar was mono
OS...poly
Amy...mono
Kathy...mono
Taralay...mono
Cac...poly.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on May 25, 2017, 05:00:21 PM
Cotton Candy is poly
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Mark in Texas on May 26, 2017, 10:49:28 AM
I have said it before......
I think some of these new Zills are mono-poly hybrids that can go either way within a given variety. Such as LZ for example. Some LZ seeds will sprout mono and some sprout poly. Or like what you have

Excuse me for asking a dumb question but what are the pros and cons of mono over poly with mango?  I know the value regarding citrus polys which come true from seed like orange, grapefruit, key lime.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Tropicdude on May 26, 2017, 10:57:43 AM
I have said it before......
I think some of these new Zills are mono-poly hybrids that can go either way within a given variety. Such as LZ for example. Some LZ seeds will sprout mono and some sprout poly. Or like what you have

Excuse me for asking a dumb question but what are the pros and cons of mono over poly with mango?  I know the value regarding citrus polys which come true from seed like orange, grapefruit, key lime.

Pros for Poly:   As a root stock,  using the clone will mean that root stock will be consistent.  and you can expect the same results.   Poly seeds also generally come up true to parent.    its much easier to mail a seed, than a whole plant.

Cons for Poly:  In general,  the seed is larger,  so there is less seed to flesh ratio.   not so much a problem with large fruited varieties, more noticeable in small fruit.  again this is just on average.   and may not be that important for backyard growers.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on May 26, 2017, 12:01:54 PM
I'm not Zands but mono seeds will not grow true to seed whereas Polyembryonic seeds should have one zygotic seedling produced from selfing or from cross pollination and the rest of the seedlings should in theory be clones of the parent. This is basically the same as nucellar seedlings in Citrus.

Polyembryonic seedlings are especially important, in my personal opinion, because they are seedlings and lack the florigenic hormones that cause young, 1 foot grafted trees to flower in cold climates like mine.

Polyembryonic varieties are especially important to mango breeders as use for rootstocks because of their predictable behavior.  http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=20816.0 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=20816.0)

Thanks to Bsbullie for mentioning it in another thread, I never considered using the smell of the sap of crushed leaves(Zills technique) to determine the potential quality of seedlings. I used this technique and hypothesized that one can combine this technique with what we know about polyembrony in order to use the sap smell as a built in genetic marker, similar to how a researcher would insert the green flourescent protein as a marker that is clearly visible and identifiable. In our case, we would use our sense of smell to detect the clone but this only works for polyembryonic varieties most notably from the newer Zill selections that have a strong unmistakable sap smell such as Sweet Tart and Lemon Zest among others.

I confuse myself sometimes so what I'm trying to say is that we are lucky to have these strong sap smelling polyembryonic mango varieties like Sweet Tart because they have a built in clone indicator, the smell of their sap.

This year, I have plans to plant out many Sweet Tart seeds to test it as an alternative rootstock to Lavern Manilla for those trying to grow mango in colder marginal climates such as in SoCal. The Lavern Manilla grows great here but the fruit is horrible and not everyone knows how to graft. Additionally, the Lavern Manilla rootstock IS Polyembryonic but there are no Phenotypic markers allowing the nursery worker or tree purchaser to know with confidence that the tree is actually a clone. Without knowing that you have a clone, the predictability about the growth and fruiting behavior of that tree goes out the window.

I like Lemon Zest more than Sweet Tart but LZ has horrible issues with Powdery Mildew on specific rootstocks. The information I've found for Sweet Tart so far have indicated that it could be an excellent rootstock for marginal climates because of the following:
1) Vigor- its large size and fast growth will enable it to establish and reach fruiting size faster. In my area, mangos seem to grow at about 1/2 to 1/4 the rate compared to South Florida.
2) Polyembryonic- it has a built in Phenotypic marker that allows us to select the clone with confidence. Once the growth and fruiting attributes have been observed and documented, we will have a reliable tree with excellent tasting fruits that grows and fruits with predictability. Observations need to be made on seedling Sweet Tart trees and not ones that are already grafted onto other various rootstocks.
3) Disease resistance- observations made from trees grafted onto Florida rootstock as well as various other rootstocks including Lavern Manilla indicate that this variety is quite Disease resistant. I have not observed any issues with it regarding Anthracnose nor Powdery Mildew.
4) Production- this variety is one of the most productive varieties I have seen. Even small trees will set fruit and try to hold them to maturity. This is actually an issue for people growing mango in colder climates where I am recommending that we grow our trees to maturity( fruiting size) before allowing it to flower and fruit but this is a moot point because I am recommending that we grow seedlings which are not grafted and will thus likely not fruit until it reaches physical maturity.
5) Taste- recent taste evaluations at local mango tastings has ranked this variety at or near the top of polls.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Tropicdude on May 26, 2017, 02:47:43 PM
I also think that a directed planted seed,  will have a healthier root system, and be more drought tolerant.  yes the tree will probably grow bigger than a crafted one, but not everyone wants a compact tree.

regarding your root stock experiment, sound cool.   I recently posted in another thread, a study that the aussies did,  If I remember well it was over 60 different roots stocks,  there was huge difference between root stock , and here is the interesting thing,  one root stock best for one variety was not the best for another.

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/43/6/1720/T2.expansion.html (http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/43/6/1720/T2.expansion.html)
http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/43/6/1720.full (http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/43/6/1720.full)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on May 26, 2017, 04:24:01 PM
Yup agreed, one rootstock may work well for one variety but not for another. I personally want a huge mango tree, at least as big as the ones Leo Manuel has but I don't want to wait the 15-25 years.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Mark in Texas on May 27, 2017, 02:36:07 PM
Wow, interesting "stuff" and way over my head.

Am growing Sweet Tart on Coconut Cream.  The fella I got it from is trying different rootstocks to compare the influence.  I'll soon be grafting on Mallika and Turpie.

This was the newly grafted ST spring 2016.

(https://s7.postimg.cc/9jsc45ifb/Sweet_Tart.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/9jsc45ifb/)

Early May it's holding 8 nice fruit and growing up to be a big boy.

(https://s3.postimg.cc/o2hz8ed1r/Sweet_Tart_May4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/o2hz8ed1r/)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Tropicdude on May 27, 2017, 04:41:38 PM
The ST on CC sounds interesting.   here in the DR I use the local variety "Banilejo"  which is supposed to have some dwarfing effect, and is adapted to our local soils,  anything on turpentine has done terrible for me here.   keep us up to date on this experiment.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Tropicdude on May 27, 2017, 04:45:32 PM
Re-posting this from previous page,  can anyone else confirm the unknown seeds types listed below?

Poly:
Sweet Tart
PPK
Coconut Cream
Lemon Zest
Cac
Orange Sherbet
Cotton Candy

Mono:
Kathy
Taralay
Edgar
Amy
Peach Cobbler

Have not found data for these  ( still reading through the posts ) , any input?
Honey Kiss ( In one of the reviews a picture of HK seed, looked like a poly can anyone confirm this ? )
Venus
Fruit Punch
Phoenix
Seacrest
Providence
Juicy Peach
Little Gem
Nancy


I will edit this when new information comes in.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Mark in Texas on May 28, 2017, 09:22:19 AM
Re-posting this from previous page,  can anyone else confirm the unknown seeds types listed below?

Poly:
Sweet Tart
PPK
Coconut Cream
Lemon Zest
Cac
Orange Sherbet
Cotton Candy

Mono:
Kathy
Taralay
Edgar
Amy
Peach Cobbler

Interesting, why are the "elite" Zill productions poly?  You know that suggests to me that poly trumps mono.  :D

Yeah, you best choose the rootstock that is best for you soil profile and makes a good scion match.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: shinzo on May 28, 2017, 03:24:10 PM
Wow, interesting "stuff" and way over my head.

Am growing Sweet Tart on Coconut Cream.  The fella I got it from is trying different rootstocks to compare the influence.  I'll soon be grafting on Mallika and Turpie.

This was the newly grafted ST spring 2016.

(https://s7.postimg.cc/9jsc45ifb/Sweet_Tart.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/9jsc45ifb/)

Early May it's holding 8 nice fruit and growing up to be a big boy.

(https://s3.postimg.cc/o2hz8ed1r/Sweet_Tart_May4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/o2hz8ed1r/)
Very interesting, how did you get it from this size a year ago to fruiting? do you have a pic of the whole tree?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on May 28, 2017, 07:03:10 PM
Shinzo, see this thread. The Sweet Tart begins around reply #74.  http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=7511.50 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=7511.50)

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Mark in Texas on May 29, 2017, 07:47:09 AM
Wow, interesting "stuff" and way over my head.

Am growing Sweet Tart on Coconut Cream.  The fella I got it from is trying different rootstocks to compare the influence.  I'll soon be grafting on Mallika and Turpie.

This was the newly grafted ST spring 2016.

(https://s7.postimg.cc/9jsc45ifb/Sweet_Tart.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/9jsc45ifb/)

Early May it's holding 8 nice fruit and growing up to be a big boy.

(https://s3.postimg.cc/o2hz8ed1r/Sweet_Tart_May4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/o2hz8ed1r/)
Very interesting, how did you get it from this size a year ago to fruiting? do you have a pic of the whole tree?

Against the practice of this group of mango growers I use a 12 mo. encapsulated food 18-4-9 with micros food, a high N food.  Water with rainwater, have a decent well aerated potting soil in a RootBuilder bottomless pot.

ST and a recently upcanned rollinia seedling to the right of it.

(https://s23.postimg.cc/9d9tpwcmf/Sweet_Tart-_Rollinia_May.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/9d9tpwcmf/)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on June 03, 2017, 01:09:42 PM
Cotton Candy is poly

Hey Future, did you happen to check the seed to see if the sprouts some from different segments of the seed? I read that Cotton Candy is from a Keitt x Gary, aren't they both mono? It's probably possible to get a poly fruit from two heterozygous monos but I was wondering if anyone can confirm that Cotton Candy is in fact polyembryonic.

Also, anyone else have new info on newer Zill varieties that are Poly? Thanks,

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on June 03, 2017, 08:24:47 PM
Cotton Candy is poly

Hey Future, did you happen to check the seed to see if the sprouts some from different segments of the seed? I read that Cotton Candy is from a Keitt x Gary, aren't they both mono? It's probably possible to get a poly fruit from two heterozygous monos but I was wondering if anyone can confirm that Cotton Candy is in fact polyembryonic.

Also, anyone else have new info on newer Zill varieties that are Poly? Thanks,

Simon

Don't recall...I am thinking Gary might be poly?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: TnTrobbie on June 03, 2017, 09:13:50 PM
I have sprouted a few Garys. They were mono :). Juliette is mono as well- very slow growing and weak.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Tropicdude on July 28, 2017, 12:00:07 PM
Recently watched a video on Truly Tropical channel on YouTube,  Chris says that the Pickering is Poly,  I have a tree, and never really bothered to check the seed, I always assumed it was Mono for some reason.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 28, 2017, 02:12:26 PM
Alex mentioned it was Mono. Maybe someone who knows Chris can clarify with her?

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on July 28, 2017, 04:41:04 PM
I am fairly certain it is mono.  I drop her a note and she said she would relook.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: guadua on August 04, 2017, 11:49:39 PM
I planted a PPK seed and it came up as a large vigorous monoembryonic seedling. I noticed the list in this thread and truly tropical say its poly. I acquired the mango from truly tropical. Can a poly still have one dominant sprout come up and the other embryos fail? I did not see any evidence of other sprouts from the seed.   
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: zands on August 05, 2017, 08:22:28 AM
Recently watched a video on Truly Tropical channel on YouTube,  Chris says that the Pickering is Poly,  I have a tree, and never really bothered to check the seed, I always assumed it was Mono for some reason.

Pickering has been around a while so is almost an old school Florida mango. Thus should be mono. Chris deals w so many types mangoes she probably slipped up
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 05, 2017, 10:48:13 AM
I planted a PPK seed and it came up as a large vigorous monoembryonic seedling. I noticed the list in this thread and truly tropical say its poly. I acquired the mango from truly tropical. Can a poly still have one dominant sprout come up and the other embryos fail? I did not see any evidence of other sprouts from the seed.   

Polyembryonic mangos can have a seedling that is zygotic and not a clone. If you crush a leaf, does it have a citrusy smell to it or is it more like Turpentine like many other mono types?

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: guadua on August 05, 2017, 08:01:40 PM
I crushed a piece of leaf, but I didn't smell anything citrusy or turpentine like. It kinda just smelled like cut grass. I have a small PPK and tried a leaf from it too, but still didn't smell anything.

Photo of PPK seedling...

(https://s1.postimg.cc/6ue94xrrv/IMG_8026.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6ue94xrrv/)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 06, 2017, 06:15:28 PM
The majority of the Lemon Zest and Orange Sherbet seedlings have had a strong citrusy smell to it. In fact, I can't recall any of the seedlings in this family that didn't have a citrusy smell to it which leads me to believe that the majority of the seedlings are clones and the zygotic seedling died out.

Perhaps if you only get one seedling, it is one of those (rare?) cases where the Zygotic seedling won out and all the clones died off for some reason or another?

simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Jose Spain on August 12, 2017, 11:55:17 AM
I got a question for you guys. Given that shipping from USA can take up to 3 weeks and that Customs here is becoming more a more careful with vegetal stuff because of diseases like Xilella, purchasing scions is kind of a very risky bet for us. I've been said by another grower from Europe that rate of taking for imported scions from America is really low because of that. So I'm thinking now of another strategy to do it: Would be a safer, more successful way to get these new varieties, to bring fresh seeds of those that are poliembrionics? How long would a mango seed keep its germination capacity?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: DurianLover on August 12, 2017, 12:25:38 PM
I got a question for you guys. Given that shipping from USA can take up to 3 weeks and that Customs here is becoming more a more careful with vegetal stuff because of diseases like Xilella, purchasing scions is kind of a very risky bet for us. I've been said by another grower from Europe that rate of taking for imported scions from America is really low because of that. So I'm thinking now of another strategy to do it: Would be a safer, more successful way to get these new varieties, to bring fresh seeds of those that are poliembrionics? How long would a mango seed keep its germination capacity?

Why don't you pay for EMS?  About $45. I shipped mango scions from Florida to Phillipines and it took 5 days only.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: DurianLover on August 12, 2017, 12:31:50 PM
Short of unrelated questions in this thread. I sacrificed one of my Orange Sherbet to graft Sweet Tart on top. Didn't have rootstock around. Is there any way to extract propogatable material from the rootstock? As much as I like ST,  the better mango might be under.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Jose Spain on August 12, 2017, 12:33:45 PM
I got a question for you guys. Given that shipping from USA can take up to 3 weeks and that Customs here is becoming more a more careful with vegetal stuff because of diseases like Xilella, purchasing scions is kind of a very risky bet for us. I've been said by another grower from Europe that rate of taking for imported scions from America is really low because of that. So I'm thinking now of another strategy to do it: Would be a safer, more successful way to get these new varieties, to bring fresh seeds of those that are poliembrionics? How long would a mango seed keep its germination capacity?

Why don't you pay for EMS?  About $45. I shipped mango scions from Florida to Phillipines and it took 5 days only.

Because of Customs, from USA to Spain EMS is 65€, if Customs agents see a small, very light packet and 65$ for shipping, they will most likely stop it and open it. That's the problem with scions.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: DurianLover on August 12, 2017, 05:23:34 PM
I got a question for you guys. Given that shipping from USA can take up to 3 weeks and that Customs here is becoming more a more careful with vegetal stuff because of diseases like Xilella, purchasing scions is kind of a very risky bet for us. I've been said by another grower from Europe that rate of taking for imported scions from America is really low because of that. So I'm thinking now of another strategy to do it: Would be a safer, more successful way to get these new varieties, to bring fresh seeds of those that are poliembrionics? How long would a mango seed keep its germination capacity?

Why don't you pay for EMS?  About $45. I shipped mango scions from Florida to Phillipines and it took 5 days only.

Because of Customs, from USA to Spain EMS is 65€, if Customs agents see a small, very light packet and 65$ for shipping, they will most likely stop it and open it. That's the problem with scions.

Nothing is allowed technically, but I had a lot of EMS traffic seeds to US, few from from US,  quite a bit within SE Asia and nothing ever got confiscated. Sometimes you just have to be bold and count your lucky stars.
You could also send first to one of the relaxed EU countries up north if you have friends there and than forward within EU.  Those countries with relaxed customs and don't care about tropical stuff, it presents zero danger to them.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: zands on August 12, 2017, 06:43:38 PM
Short of unrelated questions in this thread. I sacrificed one of my Orange Sherbet to graft Sweet Tart on top. Didn't have rootstock around. Is there any way to extract propogatable material from the rootstock? As much as I like ST,  the better mango might be under.

You need to induce some branches to grow out at the root stock level. To induce you have to nick through the bark and cambium layers the right way and just a small amount. Hopefully someone can give you better details and personal experience.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=mango%20tree%20induce%20branching&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=mango%20tree%20induce%20branching&sc=0-27&sk=&cvid=94AC71068C174201BFE29306E57A74C0 (https://www.bing.com/search?q=mango%20tree%20induce%20branching&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=mango%20tree%20induce%20branching&sc=0-27&sk=&cvid=94AC71068C174201BFE29306E57A74C0)

http://tinyurl.com/yc25kvl4 (http://tinyurl.com/yc25kvl4)


and check youtube for notching fruit trees and mango trees
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXdexMgFobA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXdexMgFobA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq08NuQ_bfI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq08NuQ_bfI)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: DurianLover on August 12, 2017, 08:22:41 PM
Short of unrelated questions in this thread. I sacrificed one of my Orange Sherbet to graft Sweet Tart on top. Didn't have rootstock around. Is there any way to extract propogatable material from the rootstock? As much as I like ST,  the better mango might be under.

You need to induce some branches to grow out at the root stock level. To induce you have to nick through the bark and cambium layers the right way and just a small amount. Hopefully someone can give you better details and personal experience.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=mango%20tree%20induce%20branching&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=mango%20tree%20induce%20branching&sc=0-27&sk=&cvid=94AC71068C174201BFE29306E57A74C0 (https://www.bing.com/search?q=mango%20tree%20induce%20branching&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=mango%20tree%20induce%20branching&sc=0-27&sk=&cvid=94AC71068C174201BFE29306E57A74C0)

http://tinyurl.com/yc25kvl4 (http://tinyurl.com/yc25kvl4)


and check youtube for notching fruit trees and mango trees
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXdexMgFobA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXdexMgFobA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq08NuQ_bfI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq08NuQ_bfI)

Thank you Mr. Zands. Learned something new. Notching to promote a branch is a brand new concept to me.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Jose Spain on August 13, 2017, 05:52:14 AM
I got a question for you guys. Given that shipping from USA can take up to 3 weeks and that Customs here is becoming more a more careful with vegetal stuff because of diseases like Xilella, purchasing scions is kind of a very risky bet for us. I've been said by another grower from Europe that rate of taking for imported scions from America is really low because of that. So I'm thinking now of another strategy to do it: Would be a safer, more successful way to get these new varieties, to bring fresh seeds of those that are poliembrionics? How long would a mango seed keep its germination capacity?

Why don't you pay for EMS?  About $45. I shipped mango scions from Florida to Phillipines and it took 5 days only.

Because of Customs, from USA to Spain EMS is 65€, if Customs agents see a small, very light packet and 65$ for shipping, they will most likely stop it and open it. That's the problem with scions.

Nothing is allowed technically, but I had a lot of EMS traffic seeds to US, few from from US,  quite a bit within SE Asia and nothing ever got confiscated. Sometimes you just have to be bold and count your lucky stars.
You could also send first to one of the relaxed EU countries up north if you have friends there and than forward within EU.  Those countries with relaxed customs and don't care about tropical stuff, it presents zero danger to them.

Lucky you that never got nothing confiscated, but you are sharing your experience in Asia, so this is kind of futile comparison  :-\ . Here in EU things work different, growers that have expended hundreds of $ in scions got a lot of stuff either confiscated or delayed, so they got a very low percentage of successful grafts, if any. It doesn't matter either to which country you send them, rules are the same for all the Union as we are a single market, and an agriculture disaster in Spain and Italy do affect the whole of us. Besides with scions is all about time, adding another step to their travel don't resolve the problem: the longer it takes to arrive, the lower the rate of success. So in the specific case of poliembrionic mangoes, seeds seem to me like a possible good alternative to get some varieties. That's why I'd like to know if anybody have experience sending/receiving seeds, how long they keep they germination capacity and how well they resist all the shipping process.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Guanabanus on August 13, 2017, 08:30:53 AM
5 days is great, in air-conditioned transport.  With fungicide moistened paper or cloth, and air-conditioned transport most of the time,  you can probably get some survivors at 3 weeks.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on September 09, 2017, 04:01:25 PM
Has anyone confirmed if Pina Colada is Polyembryonic? I believe Future said his came up with multiple Sprouts. Also, are there any other top teir varieties that are polyembryonic such as Fruit Punch, Phoenix, cotton Candy, etc...? By the way, in case anyone has seeds from these known polyembryonic varieties, I'm looking to buy some. I'm volunteering at mostly older folks homes and planting polyembryonic mango seeds from top tier varieties. Thanks for any info or seeds!

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: wslau on September 09, 2017, 04:19:18 PM
Simon...fruit punch is mono.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on September 09, 2017, 05:26:18 PM
Has anyone confirmed if Pina Colada is Polyembryonic? I believe Future said his came up with multiple Sprouts. Also, are there any other top teir varieties that are polyembryonic such as Fruit Punch, Phoenix, cotton Candy, etc...? By the way, in case anyone has seeds from these known polyembryonic varieties, I'm looking to buy some. I'm volunteering at mostly older folks homes and planting polyembryonic mango seeds from top tier varieties. Thanks for any info or seeds!

Simon

Cotton Candy is poly.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on September 09, 2017, 07:41:02 PM
Thanks Warren and Future! I believe the top tier polyembryonic varieties are:
PPK, Lemon Zest, Orange Sherbet, Coconut Cream, Pina Colada, Cotton Candy. Please let me know if I missed any and thanks for everyone's input!

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: TnTrobbie on September 09, 2017, 07:44:56 PM
Recently watched a video on Truly Tropical channel on YouTube,  Chris says that the Pickering is Poly,  I have a tree, and never really bothered to check the seed, I always assumed it was Mono for some reason.

Two pickerings sprouted under my tree. They turned out to be mono.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: behlgarden on October 04, 2017, 10:54:10 AM
Thanks Warren and Future! I believe the top tier polyembryonic varieties are:
PPK, Lemon Zest, Orange Sherbet, Coconut Cream, Pina Colada, Cotton Candy. Please let me know if I missed any and thanks for everyone's input!

Simon


add peach cobbler to the list, unless the seed mutated. I pulled out the seed and its got multiple embryos, I am going to grow it.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: sapote on October 04, 2017, 03:32:48 PM
What is the full name of  PPK?
When I searched for picture of Peach Cobbler mango, Orange Sherbet mango, Coconut Cream mango, Cotton Candy mango, I got all pictures of food and not fruits??? These names are common to dessert disks and it makes difficult to look for information of these mangoes.
Btw this link , from the creator, says Coconut Cream is mono (although some poly) at 1:26 in to the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxfpWgelDm4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxfpWgelDm4)

I’m trying to match up the fruit picture of my mysterious Edward with polyembryonic seed bought from Toptrop. I asked them and the answer was they think mine is Edward. Who to believe?

Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: behlgarden on October 04, 2017, 04:14:48 PM
if you can find pictures of 2017 tasting OR 2016 tasting from So Cal, you will see picture of each mango and its cut fruit. We had most mangoes covered in tastings with the exception of few Late OR new unreleased Zills.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on October 04, 2017, 06:30:39 PM
Thanks for the info Behl!

Sapote, PPK is all Pyu Kalay. Truly Tropical has a YouTube video about it. It is also known as Lemon Meringue.

Coconut Cream has the strangest looking seeds I have ever seen and all the seeds I got so far have been polyembryonic but difficult to germinate because only a few people are growing it here and it ripens around this time of year right before the cold weather hits. The Poly seed segments are odd shapes and the resulting seedlings are somewhat twisted. All my seedlings died last year but the seeds were old and somewhat moldy when I received them. The single CC seed I received from the recent Mango tasting was treated with bottom heat and two seedlings have sprouted roots from different segments of the seed.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on October 04, 2017, 08:30:17 PM
Thanks for the info Behl!

Sapote, PPK is all Pyu Kalay. Truly Tropical has a YouTube video about it. It is also known as Lemon Meringue.

Coconut Cream has the strangest looking seeds I have ever seen and all the seeds I got so far have been polyembryonic but difficult to germinate because only a few people are growing it here and it ripens around this time of year right before the cold weather hits. The Poly seed segments are odd shapes and the resulting seedlings are somewhat twisted. All my seedlings died last year but the seeds were old and somewhat moldy when I received them. The single CC seed I received from the recent Mango tasting was treated with bottom heat and two seedlings have sprouted roots from different segments of the seed.

Simon

That was meant to read Po Pyu Kalay.

Peach Cobbler poly?  Not from my memory.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on October 05, 2017, 11:02:50 AM
Thanks for the correction Future, the autocorrect always gets me when I’m typing too fast.

I will put Peach Cobbler on the “maybe list” until we get more samples. I believe Cotton Candy still needs additional confirmation as well.

The good news is that PPK, Lemon Zest, Orange Sherbet and Sweet Tart are confirmed polyembryonic most of the time and these are some of my favorite mangos.

I’m not going to go in depth about this but I just wanted to mention that there is some research out there that suggest that when a tree is grown in a stressful environment such as one under disease pressures( Phomopsis, BBS, anthracnose, Powdery Mildew) the stress pressures can alter the DNA in such a way that specific genes may be turned on or off.

By planting seeds of our favorite varieties which were grown under these stressors, the resulting seedling plants may be genetically predispositioned to better ward off such environmental stressors. With each generation of seedlings grown in that same location, there is a better likelihood of actually turning on specific genes which may help combat the disease pressures or alternatively the resulting seedlings may turn off specific genes which may also help ward off diseases.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: behlgarden on October 05, 2017, 11:47:52 AM
Thanks for the info Behl!

Sapote, PPK is all Pyu Kalay. Truly Tropical has a YouTube video about it. It is also known as Lemon Meringue.

Coconut Cream has the strangest looking seeds I have ever seen and all the seeds I got so far have been polyembryonic but difficult to germinate because only a few people are growing it here and it ripens around this time of year right before the cold weather hits. The Poly seed segments are odd shapes and the resulting seedlings are somewhat twisted. All my seedlings died last year but the seeds were old and somewhat moldy when I received them. The single CC seed I received from the recent Mango tasting was treated with bottom heat and two seedlings have sprouted roots from different segments of the seed.

Simon

That was meant to read Po Pyu Kalay.

Peach Cobbler poly?  Not from my memory.

got 7 embryos from one seed, have sowed it and will see what comes out. previous seeds yielded single embriyo. its interesting how there can be variations. also not sure if cross pollination plays any role in how seed is formed? obviously genetic changes happen in seed.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on October 05, 2017, 06:16:03 PM
Thanks for the info Behl!

Sapote, PPK is all Pyu Kalay. Truly Tropical has a YouTube video about it. It is also known as Lemon Meringue.

Coconut Cream has the strangest looking seeds I have ever seen and all the seeds I got so far have been polyembryonic but difficult to germinate because only a few people are growing it here and it ripens around this time of year right before the cold weather hits. The Poly seed segments are odd shapes and the resulting seedlings are somewhat twisted. All my seedlings died last year but the seeds were old and somewhat moldy when I received them. The single CC seed I received from the recent Mango tasting was treated with bottom heat and two seedlings have sprouted roots from different segments of the seed.

Simon

That was meant to read Po Pyu Kalay.

Peach Cobbler poly?  Not from my memory.

got 7 embryos from one seed, have sowed it and will see what comes out. previous seeds yielded single embriyo. its interesting how there can be variations. also not sure if cross pollination plays any role in how seed is formed? obviously genetic changes happen in seed.

7 sprouts...interesting.  As far as I know, cross pollination has no effect on seeds, just subsequent plant and its fruit.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Tropicdude on October 05, 2017, 11:45:11 PM
Thanks for the correction Future, the autocorrect always gets me when I’m typing too fast.

I will put Peach Cobbler on the “maybe list” until we get more samples. I believe Cotton Candy still needs additional confirmation as well.

The good news is that PPK, Lemon Zest, Orange Sherbet and Sweet Tart are confirmed polyembryonic most of the time and these are some of my favorite mangos.

I’m not going to go in depth about this but I just wanted to mention that there is some research out there that suggest that when a tree is grown in a stressful environment such as one under disease pressures( Phomopsis, BBS, anthracnose, Powdery Mildew) the stress pressures can alter the DNA in such a way that specific genes may be turned on or off.

By planting seeds of our favorite varieties which were grown under these stressors, the resulting seedling plants may be genetically predispositioned to better ward off such environmental stressors. With each generation of seedlings grown in that same location, there is a better likelihood of actually turning on specific genes which may help combat the disease pressures or alternatively the resulting seedlings may turn off specific genes which may also help ward off diseases.

Simon

This is new science which I have looked into a bit,  epi-genetics, and agree,  I think it is possible that certain conditions, can change gene expression in offspring.  a few years back,  the whole human genome mapping was in the news,  we thought erroneously that finally we will know what each gene does, and be able to splice and create a GATTACA type world.  we found out that genes are just the tip of the iceberg.   we still have not mapped all the epi-genetic possibilities.    anyway this is deviating from main topic.    again it is very possible that given the right factors,  that certain genes can turn on or off, 

eventually we might have mangoes mapped out, and know what each gene does and how it is involved in traits the tree and fruit  will have.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316283834_Genetic_Map_of_Mango_A_Tool_for_Mango_Breeding (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316283834_Genetic_Map_of_Mango_A_Tool_for_Mango_Breeding)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260154077_Characterization_of_mango_Mangifera_indica_L_transcriptome_and_chloroplast_genome (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260154077_Characterization_of_mango_Mangifera_indica_L_transcriptome_and_chloroplast_genome)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on October 06, 2017, 12:01:15 PM
I am growing out a couple polyembryonic mango varieties that have horrible issues with Powdery Mildew when grown at my location. These varieties are Lemon Zest and Nam Doc Mai. Ive read that NDM is pretty disease resistant in Florida but I believe the strain we have here is different and NDM panicles are heavily affected. Lemon Zest is one of my all time favorite mango but it too is also heavily affected by Powdery Mildew. Pm is especially bad for LZ because it’s ideal moisture and temperature preference seems to coincide with the LZ bloom period. The bloom period here in SoCal can last a long time due to our cooler ambient temperatures which gives the PM a longer window period to attack the blooms and newly set fruit.

I hope that by planting these LZ and NDM seedlings grown in my(or Leo Manuel’s) yard where disease pressures are high, I will eventually be able to get a seedling selection that is more adaptable to my specific growing conditions although it may take multiple generations to turn on or off the genes that may give it better resistance to PM.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Das Bhut on October 06, 2017, 03:48:21 PM
is orange essence or any of the newer ones that came out with it poly?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: behlgarden on October 06, 2017, 05:06:56 PM
I am growing out a couple polyembryonic mango varieties that have horrible issues with Powdery Mildew when grown at my location. These varieties are Lemon Zest
Simon

Simon, my lemon zest seedling was pristine and clean no issues of PM, and leaves are more fragrant than parent. I am anxious for it to fruit next year. it is now 3.5 yr old seedling.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: kh0110 on October 06, 2017, 05:16:20 PM
My LZ was grafted on the Fake Alphonso which in turn was grafted on a Lavern Manila and it has no problem what so ever except on the fruits where there was severe anthracnose as shown in photo below. Only on fruits, 3 out of 4.

(https://s1.postimg.cc/2ajg5nyyrv/IMG_0088.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/2ajg5nyyrv/)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on October 06, 2017, 06:20:07 PM
Thanks for the confirmation Thera, I have also confirmed that Lavern Manilla is an excellent rootstock and when Lemon Zest is grafted onto it, it is able to fruit normally. Please see reply #64 for pictures and info on the differences I have noticed in my yard when LZ is grown on different rootstocks. http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=15673.50 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=15673.50)

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: kh0110 on October 06, 2017, 09:37:09 PM
One thing to note here, Simon, is that the Fake Alphonso is an excellent inter-stock here in So Cal (extremely vigorous and problem free) and probably also an excellent rootstock (to be confirmed).
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Guanabanus on October 06, 2017, 10:47:17 PM
Most of the splotching on the Lemon Zests pictured, is natural coloration of the variety, like patches of woods in fields of golden grain.

The fruit on the right does have some blackening, possibly anthracnose, on top of a natural green-colored spot.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: kh0110 on October 06, 2017, 11:20:54 PM
Thank you, Har, for the precious info. Now I like the Fake Alphonso more and more.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on July 16, 2018, 07:13:19 PM
Re-posting this from previous page,  can anyone else confirm the unknown seeds types listed below?

Poly:
Sweet Tart
PPK
Coconut Cream
Lemon Zest
Cac
Orange Sherbet
Cotton Candy

Mono:
Kathy
Taralay
Edgar
Amy
Peach Cobbler

Have not found data for these  ( still reading through the posts ) , any input?
Honey Kiss ( In one of the reviews a picture of HK seed, looked like a poly can anyone confirm this ? )
Venus
Fruit Punch
Phoenix
Seacrest
Providence
Juicy Peach
Little Gem
Nancy


I will edit this when new information comes in.

Walter Zill took me to look at his Honey Kiss trees yesterday.  Most are actually seedlings and he says he sees no difference between them and they are polyembryonic.  Also, he said he finds these fruit taste much better when picked ripe, not green.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: fliptop on July 16, 2018, 09:16:23 PM
Simon (and others), when you get multiple sprouts, do you separate and grow out each sprout individually? If so, how soon do you separate them?

I have some yearling PSM and NDM that I separated at birth and are doing well so far in terms of growth. Last year's PPK only kicked out one sprout but I am keeping it.

This year I got clumsy hands and snapped tap roots off seedlings and also feel I separated my two Coconut Cream sprouts too soon. I snapped one completely off the seed but I managed to keep its tap root. Have you ever done something similar and the seedling survived? Thanks!
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 17, 2018, 12:20:55 AM
Future, thanks for the confirmation on Honey KISS being Polyembryonic, now to find some seeds!

Fliptop, I have separated seedlings from polyembryonic seeds before but I mostly do this for rootstock trees. When I’m propagating Polyembryonic seedlings in hopes of getting a clone, I leave all the seedlings. By leaving all the seedlings, i hope we that only one of the seedlings is zygotic and the rest are clones.

Some of the research articles I posted in another thread show that there can be more than one zygotic seedling arising from a Polyembryonic seed but it is less common.

I have a feeling that if we grow out enough zygotic seedlings, some of us will get lucky with a great tasting new variety. The Zygotic seedling should have about 50% of the genes from the parent Fruit or 100% if it was selfed but with selfing, there is still re arrangement of chromosomes so you will Not get a clone although you can get something almost identical except at the DNA level.

Fliptop, I have snapped off seedling sprouts multiple times and I have often gotten new growth from the tap root.

Simon

Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: CA Hockey on July 17, 2018, 03:46:37 AM
I was at a mango talk the other day where the speaker mentioned she has it on good authority (Richard Campbell?) that a reliable way to choose a clone is to choose an sprout that is neither runty nor too vigorous. Obviously you'd need a few to sprout to be able to compare, but it sounded like a reasonable starting point.

I've collected a few seeds over the weekend. are polys germinated in the same way as monos? Crack open the seed and pull out the embryo and plant away?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 17, 2018, 08:09:28 AM
CA Hockey, yes that’s the way to do it.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: mangomandan on July 17, 2018, 08:52:03 AM
My neighbor planted a seed and let both of the sprouts grow until one of them fruited with the clone. Then cut the bad one back.  I don't know if there are disadvantages to this approach, but it worked for him.

I was at a mango talk the other day where the speaker mentioned she has it on good authority (Richard Campbell?) that a reliable way to choose a clone is to choose an sprout that is neither runty nor too vigorous. Obviously you'd need a few to sprout to be able to compare, but it sounded like a reasonable starting point.


Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on July 17, 2018, 10:01:14 AM
My neighbor planted a seed and let both of the sprouts grow until one of them fruited with the clone. Then cut the bad one back.  I don't know if there are disadvantages to this approach, but it worked for him.

I was at a mango talk the other day where the speaker mentioned she has it on good authority (Richard Campbell?) that a reliable way to choose a clone is to choose an sprout that is neither runty nor too vigorous. Obviously you'd need a few to sprout to be able to compare, but it sounded like a reasonable starting point.



Grafting a seedling scion onto a mature tree, even better.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: behlgarden on July 17, 2018, 10:43:24 AM
no harm in growing all siblings. here in CA most mangoes will fruit in 2-4 years from seed, whether poly or mono. and in this time frame tree gets to max 5-7 feet tall and wide. if anything, you get a nice established tree to top work/graft onto.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Cookie Monster on July 17, 2018, 01:31:46 PM
Nutty. That has to be due to the cold nights there. Here it's 4 - 8 years, depending on cultivar. I can shave it down to 2 - 3 by grafting to extremely vigorous shoots of a mature tree.

no harm in growing all siblings. here in CA most mangoes will fruit in 2-4 years from seed, whether poly or mono. and in this time frame tree gets to max 5-7 feet tall and wide. if anything, you get a nice established tree to top work/graft onto.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: behlgarden on July 17, 2018, 02:08:00 PM
Nutty. That has to be due to the cold nights there. Here it's 4 - 8 years, depending on cultivar. I can shave it down to 2 - 3 by grafting to extremely vigorous shoots of a mature tree.

no harm in growing all siblings. here in CA most mangoes will fruit in 2-4 years from seed, whether poly or mono. and in this time frame tree gets to max 5-7 feet tall and wide. if anything, you get a nice established tree to top work/graft onto.

Jeff, we get fruit off a graft within months of grafting. yes, cold nights and dry weather. Frank had his Juliette seedling fruited in 2 years, my Coconut Cream Seedling bloomed in 2.5 yrs, but did not hold this year due to heat wave. hoping it holds next year. Also have LZ now on year 3, should bloom next year, fingers crossed.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 17, 2018, 10:11:24 PM
Simon (and others), when you get multiple sprouts, do you separate and grow out each sprout individually? If so, how soon do you separate them?

I have some yearling PSM and NDM that I separated at birth and are doing well so far in terms of growth. Last year's PPK only kicked out one sprout but I am keeping it.

This year I got clumsy hands and snapped tap roots off seedlings and also feel I separated my two Coconut Cream sprouts too soon. I snapped one completely off the seed but I managed to keep its tap root. Have you ever done something similar and the seedling survived? Thanks!

Here’s a couple pictures of my Sweet Tart Seedlings. Two sprouts came up from this seed. I direct planted this seed into the ground. Just because two seedlings come up from one seed does not mean that one is zygotic and one is a clone. Also, sometimes one segment of seed will have multiple sprouts come up. Because those seedlings came from the same segment of seed, they should be identical. In this case, if you are trying to get a clone, you could be out of luck because the seedlings could have come from the zygotic segment.


(https://s15.postimg.cc/s7iwmow7b/79_CDD76_A-_B95_B-427_A-93_F3-5_E5_A631_F4_CE1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/s7iwmow7b/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/6l3w5ni7b/D1_AB67_E8-3023-421_F-8_FB4-_D5_E9715_B363_A.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6l3w5ni7b/)

There are a couple things I do to ensure I get two seedlings from different segments of a Polyembryonic seed. The first and easiest method is to sprout the seed and visually inspect that you have at least two segments that sprout separate roots. Once you have verified this, you can plant your seed with more confidence.

The second method is for seeds planted into a pot or the ground. Once the seedlings sprout and gain some size, gently tug on the trunk of one of the seedlings, if both seedlings move, they may be on the same root or the roots are entangled tightly. If the seedlings move independently, they are likely from different segments of seed.

Here’s a NDM seedling growing vigorously. There were 4 sprouts from this seed. One seedling is obviously dominant with the other three being very similar in size and growth rate so one can presume that the offtype is the zygotic seedling.

(https://s15.postimg.cc/xwz56rhqf/5_A3_F6_CB9-8_DD2-4_D21-8_BD3-95_F1_CF54_FBC6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/xwz56rhqf/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/ymhxj4pzr/F69658_B9-_A542-4_DDB-_B781-5_F62560_D26_CD.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ymhxj4pzr/)
If I wanted the clone, I could remove two of the three smaller seedlings leaving the two seedlings with different phenotypes but I wanted to see how the four trees will turn out if left alone.

Here’s a couple pictures of some Piña Colada seedlings with multiple sprouts coming out.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/avik18053/3_F335_A45-51_D5-4_E0_F-8_BB9-21_B21_CBFA383.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/avik18053/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/6mdtz2k13/655_B23_BD-5_C09-4_DD5-_B06_A-_D2_E619_F5_C56_D.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6mdtz2k13/)
Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: fliptop on July 18, 2018, 07:54:23 AM
Thanks, Simon!
Do you ever use leaf shape, smell, and emergent leaf color to help identify possible clones?

My two seedling CC had the same leaf color when they emerged, but now their leaves look different. The more robust one on the left was the one I snapped completely off the seed, but it kept its tap root:

(https://s15.postimg.cc/3w9jyw6hj/20180718_071938.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3w9jyw6hj/)

My three yearling PSM seedlings (from the same seed) are different sizes, maybe owing to different container sizes. Their leaves all look similar and they smell like the PSM mango (another seedling didn't smell like PSM)


(https://s15.postimg.cc/e6h0v27rr/20180718_072545.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/e6h0v27rr/)

I snapped the tap root off this PPK when I repotted it, and then got another seedling.

(https://s15.postimg.cc/pvl0j9bnr/20180718_063959.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/pvl0j9bnr/)

Last pic is the sole PPK sprout I got last year from a seed. I've never seen a real PPK so I don't know what their leaves look like, but these leaves do smell citrusy.


(https://s15.postimg.cc/4zyq80n6f/20180718_072530.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4zyq80n6f/)

Thanks again for the info, Simon!
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 18, 2018, 04:30:47 PM
Hey fliptop,
Yes I do use the leaf color, shape and smell to try to guess which seedlings are the clones. Originally I assumed that you could simply break a leaf and smell the sap to determine the clone for specific varieties like Sweet Tart but I have yet to find a Sweet Tart seedling that does not have the strong pungent Indo Chinese smell to its sap. I’m guessing that the intense Indo Chinese sap smell is a dominant trait or that all the zygotic seedlings were selfed and this retained this attribute.

There is also the possibility that Sweet Tart is one of those varieties where the zygotic seedling dies out in favor of the clones but I’m only assuming at this point.

Best practice is to grow out at least two seedlings from different segments of the seed to fruition.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 19, 2018, 03:07:19 PM
A lot of my friends have been contacting me lately regarding polyembryonic Mangos and I want to mention that sometimes polyembryonic Mangos will give you a Monoembryonic seed. When you remove the seed husk and the brown skin from the embryo, you will sometimes see just one segment and the seed will only produce one seedling. I do not know if the one seedling will be a clone or zygotic so if you are going after a clone, it’s better to plant a polyembryonic seed with multiple segments.

I’ve seen mono seeds from Lemon Zest, Sweet Tart, Coconut Cream, Orange Sherbet and now E4(Sugarloaf).

Sugarloaf sometimes gets really skinny seeds and when you open up the seed husk, there is an atrophied embryo. From a total of 7 Sugarloaf seeds, I got two atrophied embryos, three Monoembryonic embryos, one that looks mono but could be Polyembryonic( segments not well defined) and one that is for sure polyembryonic.

Here are some Sugarloaf embryos, the one on top is Polyembryonic.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/wfyd368yv/1634_BB98-405_F-494_A-_BB97-7_FF789_F36_BD5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/wfyd368yv/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/4slnp036v/6_C148553-_E3_A9-49_EA-9_B90-1016_C40_AEEA0.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4slnp036v/)
Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: behlgarden on July 19, 2018, 03:29:01 PM
Simon, what are the chances that E4 seeds got mixed up?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: zands on July 19, 2018, 03:36:47 PM
A lot of my friends have been contacting me lately regarding polyembryonic Mangos and I want to mention that sometimes polyembryonic Mangos will give you a Monoembryonic seed. When you remove the seed husk and the brown skin from the embryo, you will sometimes see just one segment and the seed will only produce one seedling. I do not know if the one seedling will be a clone or zygotic so if you are going after a clone, it’s better to plant a polyembryonic seed with multiple segments.

I’ve seen mono seeds from Lemon Zest, Sweet Tart, Coconut Cream, Orange Sherbet and now E4(Sugarloaf).

Sugarloaf sometimes gets really skinny seeds and when you open up the seed husk, there is an atrophied embryo. From a total of 7 Sugarloaf seeds, I got two atrophied embryos, three Monoembryonic embryos, one that looks mono but could be Polyembryonic( segments not well defined) and one that is for sure polyembryonic.

Here are some Sugarloaf embryos, the one on top is Polyembryonic.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/wfyd368yv/1634_BB98-405_F-494_A-_BB97-7_FF789_F36_BD5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/wfyd368yv/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/4slnp036v/6_C148553-_E3_A9-49_EA-9_B90-1016_C40_AEEA0.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4slnp036v/)
Simon

I was saying that a month ago. That some mangoes can go poly or mono.  But you are giving it more refinment. You are saying

--- Mangoes that are poly-embryonic will sometimes give you mono-embryonic seeds. Lets say 5-10% of the time
----Mangoes that  give you mono-embryonic seeds will only give you mono-embryonic seeds. You will never get a poly-embryonic seed from them

Though I will say that from time to time avocado seeds and mono mango seeds will send out two shoots/ two sprouts
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 19, 2018, 03:51:02 PM
Simon, what are the chances that E4 seeds got mixed up?

Hey Behl, it is highly unlikely the seeds got mixed up. I got the seeds from highly respected members with direct links to the Zills. Brad actually had an E4 Fruit that was slightly bruised that he shared with me and I believe the seed was one of those that we couldn’t tell for sure if it’s mono or poly.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 19, 2018, 04:02:10 PM
A lot of my friends have been contacting me lately regarding polyembryonic Mangos and I want to mention that sometimes polyembryonic Mangos will give you a Monoembryonic seed. When you remove the seed husk and the brown skin from the embryo, you will sometimes see just one segment and the seed will only produce one seedling. I do not know if the one seedling will be a clone or zygotic so if you are going after a clone, it’s better to plant a polyembryonic seed with multiple segments.

I’ve seen mono seeds from Lemon Zest, Sweet Tart, Coconut Cream, Orange Sherbet and now E4(Sugarloaf).

Sugarloaf sometimes gets really skinny seeds and when you open up the seed husk, there is an atrophied embryo. From a total of 7 Sugarloaf seeds, I got two atrophied embryos, three Monoembryonic embryos, one that looks mono but could be Polyembryonic( segments not well defined) and one that is for sure polyembryonic.

Here are some Sugarloaf embryos, the one on top is Polyembryonic.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/wfyd368yv/1634_BB98-405_F-494_A-_BB97-7_FF789_F36_BD5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/wfyd368yv/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/4slnp036v/6_C148553-_E3_A9-49_EA-9_B90-1016_C40_AEEA0.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4slnp036v/)
Simon

I was saying that a month ago. That some mangoes can go poly or mono.  But you are giving it more refinment. You are saying

--- Mangoes that are poly-embryonic will sometimes give you mono-embryonic seeds. Lets say 5-10% of the time
----Mangoes that  give you mono-embryonic seeds will only give you mono-embryonic seeds. You will never get a poly-embryonic seed from them

Though I will say that from time to time avocado seeds and mono mango seeds will send out two shoots/ two sprouts

Hey Zands, that is what I believe to be true but I’m no Mango expert. Maybe Alex can chime in or perhaps Dr. Campbell, Dr. Ledesma or Dr. Crane will have additional information.

I have heard anecdotal mention that Monoembryonic varieties can have polyembryonic seeds under certain circumstances but I have not witnessed it myself.

I have very often seen Monoembryonic mango seeds sprout multiple sprouts but it is always from the same trunk or tap root. This is very different from polyembrony. This often occurs when I do stone grafting and behead a newly emerged seedling. The plant seems to be able to detect something wrong with the main sprout and will somehow signal the production of multiple sprouts from the main trunk just below the soil line or sometimes above it.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on July 19, 2018, 05:44:37 PM
A number of Zill (among other) varieties are known to be inconsistent with their seed.  Odd but true.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: gozp on July 30, 2018, 08:23:17 PM
These both seeds were from OS.

It seems like the top one is mono, while the bottom is poly? Please confirm.

What if the top seed mono & u planted this seed. Would it also come true to type?
(https://s15.postimg.cc/63vur1u7b/20180727_202617.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/63vur1u7b/)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 30, 2018, 11:18:02 PM
That’s what it appears to be but the top seed still has the brown skin on it so there may be segmentation beneath although it doesn’t look like that’s the case. I do not know if it will be a clone or the zygotic seedling coming up if only one sprout comes out from the top seed.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 30, 2018, 11:29:51 PM
Fruit cocktail is mono from the two seeds I got

(https://s15.postimg.cc/hmqqpdjbr/728_E7389-4088-4_E7_F-8_C01-_CB65189_D7098.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/hmqqpdjbr/)
Phoenix  and Karen Michelle is mono as well from the few seeds I got.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/7pfpwctqf/25900_A53-316_E-4_C22-8_D61-23_B33_B70_B8_A1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/7pfpwctqf/)
Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: gozp on July 30, 2018, 11:56:24 PM
That’s what it appears to be but the top seed still has the brown skin on it so there may be segmentation beneath although it doesn’t look like that’s the case. I do not know if it will be a clone or the zygotic seedling coming up if only one sprout comes out from the top seed.

Simon

Hi simon, i have took out the brown skin & no segmentation noticed.

That being said & as well as the seeds u uploaded means it will not be the same as the parent?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 31, 2018, 12:13:17 AM
If the seeds I posted truly are Monoembryonic, there would have been a rearrangement of genetic material and the resulting seedling will not be a clone of the parent.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: gozp on July 31, 2018, 04:11:16 PM
If the seeds I posted truly are Monoembryonic, there would have been a rearrangement of genetic material and the resulting seedling will not be a clone of the parent.

Simon

Thanks simon.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: coyote on July 31, 2018, 06:55:31 PM
If you are growing a poly seed and you didn't separate the segments before planting do you guys recommend pulling them apart at some point or just growing them in the same space?  Also could you trim any unwanted seedlings at the stem without causing rot issues for their poly brethren?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 03, 2018, 11:27:22 AM
Buttercream had a seed that looked like it could be mono or polyembryonic and it just sprouted. It appears it could be Polyembryonic since I got two sprouts. I just have to verify if they are from different segments and have two different sets of roots. I don’t want to disturb it now so I’m just going to let it grow.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/yey42h25j/8_D085946-9_C2_B-4_F95-8195-077_ABAAFF17_C.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/yey42h25j/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/ohn39fhp3/A73_E4501-43_C0-4_B1_E-8_B1_E-317_F78_BF4499.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ohn39fhp3/)
Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: philek9 on August 10, 2018, 03:51:32 PM
Truly Tropical has Honey Kiss listed an Mono...  Are they wrong?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: behlgarden on August 10, 2018, 04:00:20 PM
Simon, can you post pic of E4 sprout and leaves? I got one that sprouted but its weird looking. its very different than other mangoes it has tall trunk, no leaves yet. tiny green on very top that looks like want to grow leaves. only one sprout.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 10, 2018, 05:15:37 PM
Here’s a few different E4 sprouts. They all look normal to me so far. The only one that looks weird is from the seed that looked Polyembryonic. It was all twisty like Coconut Cream seedlings and it browned back. I expect to see some new growth on it soon.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/bpp98zol3/17_F5_A298-67_AB-4_D9_B-9_A2_A-_BDCD66_F77_B53.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/bpp98zol3/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/b06gwn3h3/F613_E250-_E017-457_B-8_D46-_E7266_E8_B3653.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/b06gwn3h3/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/7ulv5vuzb/682_D4203-_D884-4_D26-9_A84-2_F2_C1601_AB47.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/7ulv5vuzb/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/4azxg3fev/8_F30_A42_A-59_AB-4_D87-85_DB-1_C822_B20445_A.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4azxg3fev/)
Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 10, 2018, 05:17:10 PM
Buttercream definitely Polyembryonic, at least this one I got

(https://s15.postimg.cc/dis5wwwsn/E010_DD4_F-_DF5_B-4_ECA-_BF3_E-14_E940_BCD024.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/dis5wwwsn/)
I also confirmed Honeykiss is Polyembryonic

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: behlgarden on August 10, 2018, 05:20:35 PM
Here’s a few different E4 sprouts. They all look normal to me so far. The only one that looks weird is from the seed that looked Polyembryonic. It was all twisty like Coconut Cream seedlings and it browned back. I expect to see some new growth on it soon.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/bpp98zol3/17_F5_A298-67_AB-4_D9_B-9_A2_A-_BDCD66_F77_B53.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/bpp98zol3/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/b06gwn3h3/F613_E250-_E017-457_B-8_D46-_E7266_E8_B3653.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/b06gwn3h3/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/7ulv5vuzb/682_D4203-_D884-4_D26-9_A84-2_F2_C1601_AB47.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/7ulv5vuzb/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/4azxg3fev/8_F30_A42_A-59_AB-4_D87-85_DB-1_C822_B20445_A.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4azxg3fev/)
Simon

so you did not get 2nd sprout on any E4? I got solo sprout too.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: bsbullie on August 10, 2018, 05:51:27 PM
HK is poly.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: gozp on August 10, 2018, 06:27:57 PM
Is 0-15 mono?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 10, 2018, 07:03:04 PM
Here’s a few different E4 sprouts. They all look normal to me so far. The only one that looks weird is from the seed that looked Polyembryonic. It was all twisty like Coconut Cream seedlings and it browned back. I expect to see some new growth on it soon.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/bpp98zol3/17_F5_A298-67_AB-4_D9_B-9_A2_A-_BDCD66_F77_B53.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/bpp98zol3/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/b06gwn3h3/F613_E250-_E017-457_B-8_D46-_E7266_E8_B3653.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/b06gwn3h3/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/7ulv5vuzb/682_D4203-_D884-4_D26-9_A84-2_F2_C1601_AB47.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/7ulv5vuzb/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/4azxg3fev/8_F30_A42_A-59_AB-4_D87-85_DB-1_C822_B20445_A.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4azxg3fev/)
Simon

so you did not get 2nd sprout on any E4? I got solo sprout too.

Behl, in the third picture, you can sorta see that two sprouts came up from the E4 but got sunburnt. Hopefully two more sprouts will shoot up. So far all other E4s are mono
Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: fliptop on August 11, 2018, 01:18:59 PM
Not quite a mango, but when transferring a pitangatuba sprout to a bigger pot, I noticed two tap roots coming out of the seed and the start of the second sprout. Way too difficult to separate, so for now they grow together:

(https://s22.postimg.cc/5ei4o5bel/20180810_071151-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5ei4o5bel/)

Back to polyembryonic mangoes . . .
I got three sprouts out of a NDM seed. When I went to separate them, discovered these two were connected to the same single tap root:

(https://s22.postimg.cc/enkay2hnx/20180811_130710-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/enkay2hnx/)

Together they shall grow.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Guanabanus on August 11, 2018, 08:51:18 PM
Remember the possibility of twins and triplets from sexual reproduction;  so an occasional occurrance of more than one plant from seeds of a variety that normally seems to be monoembryonic are not necessarily proof of polyembryony, even though the latter tends to be our first guess.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 15, 2018, 07:18:24 PM
Here’s an E4 seedling that looked like it was Monoembryonic but it ended up popping two sprouts. I gently tugged on the bigger sprout and the little one didn’t move. There’s a good chance it’s actually Polyembryonic. You can see the neck of the second sprout just starting to straighten up out of the soil.
(https://s8.postimg.cc/44506s69t/12_CE2_C36-6453-487_E-9939-_D418_FDF262_C8.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/44506s69t/)

(https://s8.postimg.cc/3rdm0lga9/BCB74_D9_E-_A9_FB-42_BD-_A5_C3-_D0_E5_DA5_EF7_E2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3rdm0lga9/)

(https://s8.postimg.cc/wtrw3euu9/E3792227-6380-4_E92-97_D8-33_A88_CCED868.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/wtrw3euu9/)
Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: EJO8 on August 15, 2018, 11:35:50 PM
Remember the possibility of twins and triplets from sexual reproduction;  so an occasional occurrance of more than one plant from seeds of a variety that normally seems to be monoembryonic are not necessarily proof of polyembryony, even though the latter tends to be our first guess.

That's wild I haven't even thought of that! Are most "twins" identical?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 16, 2018, 12:55:43 PM
If they come from the same embryo and thus share the same root, it is identical. I often get Kent’s with multiple sprouts but if you trace back the sprouts, they all have a common origin and a single root.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 16, 2018, 12:57:10 PM
The tip of the smaller E4 seedling straightened out this morning.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/4416x185j/510_C88_B1-40_D1-401_B-8721-8712_A368_A12_E.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4416x185j/)
Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: behlgarden on August 16, 2018, 02:13:26 PM
I got only one sprout from E4 and Butter cream, although the seeds appeared to be poly.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 16, 2018, 03:07:48 PM
Sometimes the other sprouts come out at different times.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 19, 2018, 12:04:04 AM
M4 is Polyembryonic

(https://s15.postimg.cc/wi4bs68rr/7787_B70_D-2_A36-407_A-_BE07-639_B48544034.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/wi4bs68rr/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/6zbzf64nb/AD9_A75_CA-_D1_AF-4_AFA-9_CF8-1_A37_E606891_C.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6zbzf64nb/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/6mkl8zu3b/EFB65_C56-2_DF0-4212-_AE14-932_C1272_F465.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6mkl8zu3b/)
Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: wslau on August 19, 2018, 12:15:04 AM
M4 is Polyembryonic

(https://s15.postimg.cc/wi4bs68rr/7787_B70_D-2_A36-407_A-_BE07-639_B48544034.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/wi4bs68rr/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/6zbzf64nb/AD9_A75_CA-_D1_AF-4_AFA-9_CF8-1_A37_E606891_C.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6zbzf64nb/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/6mkl8zu3b/EFB65_C56-2_DF0-4212-_AE14-932_C1272_F465.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6mkl8zu3b/)
Simon

I had the same conclusion today for M-4.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: gozp on August 19, 2018, 03:44:50 AM
Buttercream & venus seems to be mono.

M4 is poly.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 19, 2018, 08:18:39 AM
I got two sprouts from Buttercream.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: wslau on August 19, 2018, 11:12:51 PM
I'm comprising a list of the newer zill [propagated] varieties and their parentage and mono/poly....got a lot of blanks for mono/poly determination. This is what I have so far.   I am trying to base these on physical inspection of seeds (a few...more than one).

(https://s22.postimg.cc/4htpq2bst/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4htpq2bst/)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: bsbullie on August 19, 2018, 11:37:26 PM
Guava and Providence are not a Gary Zill/ZHPP creation.  Providence is from Walter Zill and most likely a Kent seedling.  Guava was from a tree growing in West Palm Beach and was going to be destroyed by the County.  Walter took budwood snd saved the "variety".

Buttercream is 34-12.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 20, 2018, 11:08:21 AM
The one Creme Brûlée seed we got appeared to be Monoembryonic.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: behlgarden on August 20, 2018, 11:12:21 AM
The one Creme Brûlée seed we got appeared to be Monoembryonic.

Simon

My seed appeared to be poly with multiple embriyos, but only one sprouted thus far.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: bsbullie on August 20, 2018, 11:54:04 AM
I'm comprising a list of the newer zill [propagated] varieties and their parentage and mono/poly....got a lot of blanks for mono/poly determination. This is what I have so far.   I am trying to base these on physical inspection of seeds (a few...more than one).

(https://s22.postimg.cc/4htpq2bst/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4htpq2bst/)

Providence is NOT Kent x Gary.  It was not part of any breeding project.  It was a chance seedling that was on Walter's property and kept by Walter Zill for certain growth habits and fruit characteristics. 

I also wonder if all the parentage you have is correct.  I would not go by assumption or what a 3rd, 4th or 5th party says (I know Gary was not thrilled and denied providing detailed infornation about the varieties when he was approached about writing a book on his breeding project).

If you are going to make and post a sheet like this, you should make sure all of the facts are correct...just sayin and my 2 cents.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on August 20, 2018, 12:13:32 PM
Rob, I’m glad we have you here to clarify things.

Warren, I know you already have Cotton Candy down as Polyembryonic but here’s a picture of the seed. This one has three separate sprouts.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/6osiw4rxj/189_C71_BB-_BFC3-4431-858_E-374_BF499_A043.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6osiw4rxj/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/59qy7ej4n/3_AE2_CD7_C-_B01_E-4_B91-_BF2_F-2_CB9_DAA09_B49.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/59qy7ej4n/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/idwik33gn/A14_C9_B1_C-5_F51-429_F-8_B5_F-54_D55_B4886_D8.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/idwik33gn/)
Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: wslau on August 20, 2018, 07:56:15 PM
I'm comprising a list of the newer zill [propagated] varieties and their parentage and mono/poly....got a lot of blanks for mono/poly determination. This is what I have so far.   I am trying to base these on physical inspection of seeds (a few...more than one).

(https://s22.postimg.cc/4htpq2bst/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4htpq2bst/)

Providence is NOT Kent x Gary.  It was not part of any breeding project.  It was a chance seedling that was on Walter's property and kept by Walter Zill for certain growth habits and fruit characteristics. 

I also wonder if all the parentage you have is correct.  I would not go by assumption or what a 3rd, 4th or 5th party says (I know Gary was not thrilled and denied providing detailed infornation about the varieties when he was approached about writing a book on his breeding project).

If you are going to make and post a sheet like this, you should make sure all of the facts are correct...just sayin and my 2 cents.

Rob...I fixed providence parentage already after your first post.
Very hard to get accurate info on everything with me not being close to Florida.
That's why I need you and others to review my excel file.  Some info came from Alex's website, which is always accurate.  The incorrect stuff most likely came from forum posts that I could not verify.
If anyone wants to help out, send me a PM and I will email the excel file to you.

Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: bsbullie on August 20, 2018, 08:30:55 PM
In all places, its Edward, not Edwards.

The Providence says Kent x Gary on your sheet...you need to remove "x Gary"

I am also not sure ZINC was ever used as a pollinator.

Coco Cream should say Edward x Gary

Carla is C-12, a Zill 80.

There is opinion that many may have been pollinated by Gary but not all crosses are documented.

Crystal is I-29 and a Zill 80 seedling.

J-14 is a ZINC seedling.

Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: wslau on August 20, 2018, 09:28:21 PM
In all places, its Edward, not Edwards.

The Providence says Kent x Gary on your sheet...you need to remove "x Gary"

I am also not sure ZINC was ever used as a pollinator.

Coco Cream should say Edward x Gary

Carla is C-12, a Zill 80.

There is opinion that many may have been pollinated by Gary but not all crosses are documented.

Crystal is I-29 and a Zill 80 seedling.

J-14 is a ZINC seedling.

Thanks rob....never even heard of crystal before.

The latest list:

(https://s22.postimg.cc/uiwttwd71/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/uiwttwd71/)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: behlgarden on August 21, 2018, 08:59:06 AM
Hmm. Coco Cream should say Edward x Gary

I thought that was Edgar. Iol
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Guanabanus on August 21, 2018, 10:30:14 AM
A pair of parents can have more than one child--- you know that!
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: bsbullie on August 21, 2018, 10:39:45 AM
Amy, a Jakarta seedling...and I believe it is D-5 (trying to find/access my old notes).
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: wslau on August 21, 2018, 08:26:52 PM
Amy, a Jakarta seedling...and I believe it is D-5 (trying to find/access my old notes).

I've been looking for info on Amy for some time.
Any description of fruit and flavor?  Poly or mono?
Anybody have this tree other than dongeorgio? 
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: bsbullie on August 21, 2018, 09:08:07 PM
A few have it...me being one.  It was, after all, named after my wife, so...

Its a larger sized fruit, I would say on average between 1.25 pounds and 1.75 pounds.  I have seen some whoppers around 2 pounds.  Taste is very sweet,  complex  with a hint of that Jakarta flavor ala O-15 (but not the peppery spice in Jakarta). Eaten many iver the years but never looked to see if mono or poly.  Will ask some that have it fruiting to see if they know.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Cookie Monster on August 21, 2018, 09:22:58 PM
Hmm that sounds interesting. I like Jakarta. How big is your tree?

A few have it...me being one.  It was, after all, named after my wife, so...

Its a larger sized fruit, I would say on average between 1.25 pounds and 1.75 pounds.  I have seen some whoppers around 2 pounds.  Taste is very sweet,  complex  with a hint of that Jakarta flavor ala O-15 (but not the peppery spice in Jakarta). Eaten many iver the years but never looked to see if mono or poly.  Will ask some that have it fruiting to see if they know.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: wslau on August 21, 2018, 09:32:16 PM
A few have it...me being one.  It was, after all, named after my wife, so...

Its a larger sized fruit, I would say on average between 1.25 pounds and 1.75 pounds.  I have seen some whoppers around 2 pounds.  Taste is very sweet,  complex  with a hint of that Jakarta flavor ala O-15 (but not the peppery spice in Jakarta). Eaten many iver the years but never looked to see if mono or poly.  Will ask some that have it fruiting to see if they know.

Thanks Rob....As with the latter varieties to be released....there is often some problem like production or disease resistance.   Do you know why Amy wasn't released?  Your description of the Jakarta flavor sounds pretty good, but I recall you don't particularly care for some resinous varieties.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: bsbullie on August 21, 2018, 09:39:01 PM
I will also add that fruit is a little more round than a Jakarta and outside skin color is yelliw gold color.  This is not a great picture but all I had acess to at the moment (they are usually a tad fuller in shape).

(https://s15.postimg.cc/s0exqa6ef/20150616_222737.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/s0exqa6ef/)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: bsbullie on August 21, 2018, 09:43:57 PM
A few have it...me being one.  It was, after all, named after my wife, so...

Its a larger sized fruit, I would say on average between 1.25 pounds and 1.75 pounds.  I have seen some whoppers around 2 pounds.  Taste is very sweet,  complex  with a hint of that Jakarta flavor ala O-15 (but not the peppery spice in Jakarta). Eaten many iver the years but never looked to see if mono or poly.  Will ask some that have it fruiting to see if they know.

Thanks Rob....As with the latter varieties to be released....there is often some problem like production or disease resistance.   Do you know why Amy wasn't released?  Your description of the Jakarta flavor sounds pretty good, but I recall you don't particularly care for some resinous varieties.

The thought is production is not great but from two large producing trees (top worked established trees), production is very good, especially for fruit size.  It does not have that strong jakarta resin/spice (neither does O-15).  Trees and fruit have been very clean.  My wife hates that strong resin flavor but the Amy is probably her favorite.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: TnTrobbie on August 21, 2018, 09:52:38 PM
I liked "Amy" mango when I was fortunate to have one in 2015. The seed sprouted (single) and has been inground for about 10-11 months now.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on June 23, 2019, 09:21:29 PM
Butter Cream appears to be Polyembryonic. This seed has three roots growing from three different segments of the same seed.


(https://i.postimg.cc/Yvn9n3SZ/464-FCDBB-6257-4-D6-E-92-FD-A1-D0-C4407-BD9.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Yvn9n3SZ)

Someone also mentioned that Kathy is Polyembryonic if I remember correctly.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on June 23, 2019, 11:19:11 PM
A second Butter Cream was Monoembryonic.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kVFc3XjR/032-D4479-5-A4-F-4-D70-B4-B8-2-C8-C7-D4-EC670.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kVFc3XjR)
Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on July 12, 2019, 02:36:38 PM
My first K-3 = Kathy = Kryptonite seed opened is poly. Have a few more to check.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: MangoCountry on July 12, 2019, 03:56:02 PM
Fruit Cocktail=mono
36-8=mono
Fruit Punch=mono
0-15=mono
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on July 13, 2019, 03:29:37 PM
My first K-3 = Kathy = Kryptonite seed opened is poly. Have a few more to check.

4 in 5 were poly
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Oolie on July 16, 2019, 01:31:49 AM
36-8=mono

I had read previously that it was poly, but both seeds were mono.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: MangoCountry on July 16, 2019, 08:13:43 AM
All of my Buttercreams have been poly
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on July 18, 2019, 05:01:19 PM
I found a Phoenix seed that appears to be poly.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 18, 2019, 06:19:23 PM
Awesome and great info everyone. Hopefully the Phoenix will give you a good clone and maybe even a new promising seedling.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on August 06, 2019, 10:14:35 AM
Found an Orange Essence with 2 sprouts. Will see if it has two root systems.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Mango_Seed on August 06, 2019, 06:08:56 PM
There are several links to information on the internet about polyembryonic mangos in the "Seed Balls" section of this forum http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=31596.0 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=31596.0)

For example all the mangos in this rootstock list are poly except Glenn:

https://journals.ashs.org/hortsci/view/journals/hortsci/43/6/article-p1720.xml (https://journals.ashs.org/hortsci/view/journals/hortsci/43/6/article-p1720.xml)

Poly article:

http://www.krishisewa.com/articles/seed-production/640-polyembryony.html (http://www.krishisewa.com/articles/seed-production/640-polyembryony.html)



The following info was copied from a spread sheet on poly mangos lists name & country of orgin.
sp=some poly

13-1 Israel
p
Israel
Gow
p
Thailand
Nam Tan Teen
p
Thailand
A
p
Indonesia
Guadalupe
p
Peru
Nang Klarngwun
p
Thailand
Ambalayi
p
Sri Lanka
Gudang
p
Indonesia
Ngowe
p
Africa
Ampalam
p
Indonesia
Gullivers Triumph
p
Australia
Nixon's Special
p
Australia
Apple2
p
Kenya
Gundu
p
India
Number11
p
West Indies
Arumanis
p
Malaysia
Harumanis
p
Indonesia
Nuwun Chan
p
Thailand
B.O.T.
p
Australia
Harumanis Red
p
Indon/Malays
Ok Rong
p
Thailand
Bali Apple
p
Australia
Hindi-Khasa
p
Egypt
Olour
p
India
Banana-1
p
Australia
Hong Sa
P
 
Ono
p
USA
Bappakkai
p
 
Indian-17
p
 
Orange
p
USA
Baramasia
p
India
Indochinese
p
 
Pahutan
p
Philippines
Batawi
p
Kenya
Indochinese Late
p
 
Peach CG
p
Australia
Binoboy
p
Philippines
Ingham Late
p
Australia
Philippine
p
Mexico
Black Java
p
Australia
Jakarta
p
 
Pico
p
Philippines
Boribo
p
Kenya
Joellen
p
 
Pineapple
p
 
Bourbon
p
Brazil/Paragu
Kamerunga White
p
Australia
Rajah
p
 
Bowen Early
p
Australia
Kasturi
p
Indonesia
Reasoner
p
 
Brander
p
 
Kensington Bmboo
p
Australia
Roberts-3
p
Australia
Bullocks Heart
p
Australia
Kensington Pride
p
Australia
Rockdale Saigon
p
Indochina
Bundaberg Late
p
Australia
Kensington Rajah
p
Australia
Rosado de Ica
p
Peru
Cambodiana
p
Vietnam, 2ndry USA
Kensington Red
p
Australia
Rupee
p
Sri Lanka
Carabao 1
p
Philippines
Kensington Spooner
p
Australia Q
Sabre
p
South Africa
Carabao Chun Tie
p
Philippines
Keow Savoey
p
Thailand
Samini
p
USA
Carabao Harbon
p
Philippines
Kopu Reva
p
Tahiti
Sampee
p
Thailand
Carabao Lamao
p
Philippines
Kuala Selangor
p
Malaysia
Santaella
p
Puerto Rico
Carabao Pepe Gomez
p
Philippines
Kurashige
p
 
Senora
p
Philippines
Carabao Super Manila
p
Philippines
Kuru
p
Sri Lanka
Simmonds
p
USA
Carabao Timoeto Llena
p
Philippines
Laris
p
USA
Simpang Empat
p
Malaysia
Carne de Ica
p
Peru
Lebai Mohamad
p
Malaysia
Sings Late
pm?
India
Cathamia
p
India
MA 173
p
India
Spychala
p
Australia
Cecil
p
 
MA 2
p
Malaysia
Sri Lanka
p
India
Ceriese
p
South Africa
MA 3
p
Malaysia
Sungi Siput
p
Malaysia
Chandrakaran
p
India
Ma Muang Paa
p
Thailand
Taimour
p
Egypt
Chato de Ica
p
Peru
Madame Francis
p
Haiti
Tango
m?
Israel
Cheteau
p
India
Madu
p
Indonesia
Tekin
p
Australia
Chino
p
Cuba
Mag-B
p
Australia
Thomas
p
Australia
Coconut
p
Sri Lanka
Maha 165
p
Malaysia
Tok Boon
p
Malaysia
Colombo Black
p
India
Mammee
p
 
Torbet
p
USA
Coracao De Boi
p
Brazil
Manzano
p
Virgin Islds
TPP 1
p
Australia
Crimson Blush
p
Australia
Marr
p
Australia, WA
Trusso
p
Australia
Doubikin
p
West Africa, Kelmscott
Mekong
p
USA
Turpentine
p
Caribbean & Sth Amer
Dunlop
p
Malaysia
Mempelam Siam
p
Thailand
Tutehau
p
 
Ewais
p
Egypt
Micongensis
p
Vietnam
Wester
p
USA
Fa Lal
p
Thailand
Millaroo 16
p
 
Xoài   Buoi
p
Vietnam
Fa Lan
p
Thailand
Millaroo 6
p
Australia
Xoài  Cat Hoa Loc
p
Vietnam
Fa Lan 97
p
Thailand
Mooyandun
p
 
Xoài  Thanh Ca
p
Vietnam
Fairchild
p
Panama
Mullumbimby Gold
p
 
Xoài  Túóng
p
Vietnam
Florigon
p
USA
Mun
p
Thailand
Xoài Cat Chu
p
Vietnam
Fred Roos
p
Australia
Mundappa
p
India
Xoài Cat Thom
p
Vietnam
G Allen
msp
Australia
Mylepania
p
India
 
 
 
Goldsworthy
p
Australia
Nam Doc Mai
p
Thailand
 
 
*m=mono
Golek
p
??
Nam Doc Mai 4
p
Thailand
 
 
p=poly
Golek 2
p
Malays/Indon
Nam Doc Mai Gold
p
Thailand
 
 
sp=some poly
 
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Oolie on August 06, 2019, 06:53:01 PM
I'm pretty sure this thread was specifically about the newer Zill releases.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Oolie on September 18, 2019, 05:44:55 PM
So I have poured over the literature trying to determine the correct parentage for E4 and Gary.

From what I have found, it appears that there are two genes for the embryony of a mango, and the poly is dominant.
No organisms have been identified with homozygous poly genes.

So that means you can have Heterozygous Poly, or Homozygous Mono.

If you cross two poly parents, of four offspring, 3 will be poly, 1 will be mono.
If you have two mono parents, all offspring will be mono.
If you have one mono parent, and one poly parent, half of the offspring will be mono, and half will be poly.

Anyone else confused?

Pettigrew if it is the correct pollen parent of Gary and E4 must be Poly correct? Maybe there's more going on.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Guanabanus on September 18, 2019, 08:07:16 PM
Very interesting!
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on September 18, 2019, 08:08:48 PM
Are you sure it can’t be a multi allelic trait? The whole thing regarding polyembrony can be more complex than a simple dominant/recessive trait. I believe the genes are on multiple different alleles and the more of these genes you can get, the better the chance of getting a Polyembryonic mango seed.

For some varieties that are almost always Polyembryonic, it may be a simple dominant/recessive trait. Other varieties may have been selected for so long that the alleles are set and act like dominant/recessive traits.

This is similar to how crown tail bettas used to be extremely difficult to breed because the crow tail trait was on multiple alleles and you needed multiple copies of specific genes in order to get a certain percentage of crown tail babies.

The crown tails now a days are so strongly set in their crowntail trait that all you need to do is cross a crown tail male with a crowntail female and you’re pretty much guaranteed to get a certain percentage of crowntail babies. This was not true before the genes were set through inbreeding, line breeding and out crossing in order to get healthy babies.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Oolie on September 18, 2019, 08:17:21 PM
No Simon, at the moment I'm not sure of anything.

That said I am attempting to get to the bottom of this. The literature suggests that polyembryonism is a single allele dominant trait.

Which is what has led to this level of confusion, I don't have anything to counter the literature other than Gary Zill's strong beliefs as to the genes he's promoting, which to me is not enough to go off of when it contradicts the published literature.

He may be correct though, I can't dispute that, and your inference may be correct as well. But if that is the case, than the literature is incorrect, at least it is failing to acknowledge and important factor in the creation of polyembryonic offspring.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: FlyingFoxFruits on September 19, 2019, 01:10:50 AM
i planted venus and e4 this season because they taste so good, not sure if ploy or mono, but i can share pics if needed
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Oolie on September 19, 2019, 02:11:35 AM
i planted venus and e4 this season because they taste so good, not sure if ploy or mono, but i can share pics if needed

E4 is already confirmed to be poly, all reports on Venus so far are mono.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: CA Hockey on September 20, 2019, 01:27:19 AM
I had 6 e4s last year and 4 this year. Iirc, each seed put out only a solitary sprout. I took a closer look this year, and the e4 seed is tiny, almost negligible, but still puts out a sprout - just 1 though.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Oolie on September 20, 2019, 01:58:39 AM
I had 6 e4s last year and 4 this year. Iirc, each seed put out only a solitary sprout. I took a closer look this year, and the e4 seed is tiny, almost negligible, but still puts out a sprout - just 1 though.

Polyembryonic trees can put out monoembryonic or polyembryonic seeds, but Monoembryonic trees can only put out monoembryonic seeds but not polyembryonic ones.

This is all assuming the literature has described the possibilities adequately, there is room for error in what has been written.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Oolie on April 18, 2020, 10:26:45 PM
Anyone inspected the seed from Pineapple Pleasure? I found some reports that the seeds were mono, I'm just looking for more people to confirm.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Squam256 on April 18, 2020, 10:37:09 PM
Anyone inspected the seed from Pineapple Pleasure? I found some reports that the seeds were mono, I'm just looking for more people to confirm.

It’s monoembryonic.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on April 19, 2020, 01:47:59 PM
The Pineapple Pleasures I’ve had were also Mono embryonic.

The E4s I’ve had were Polyembryonic if I recall correctly. I thought I posted pictures somewhere on this forum.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: TnTrobbie on June 17, 2020, 12:32:26 PM
Venus is mono. I had a mature tree and planted 3 seasons worth of seedlings....all one sprout each seed.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: gozp on June 17, 2020, 02:08:11 PM
Venus is mono. I had a mature tree and planted 3 seasons worth of seedlings....all one sprout each seed.

I currently planted a venus seedling turned out to be poly seed.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on June 17, 2020, 02:15:22 PM
Are you sure it’s Venus? If yes, are you sure it isn’t just multiple sprouts from the same  root?

Oftentimes, Monoembryonic seedlings will sprout out multiple shoots from the same root but this does not make it Polyembryonic. This often happens when the original sprout gets injured.

You may want to check out the roots if you can do it without harming your seedlings.

If each sprout has its own root, then I don’t know what to think. All the Venus I’ve had were Monoembryonic.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: JoeP450 on June 17, 2020, 02:47:38 PM
Are you sure it’s Venus? If yes, are you sure it isn’t just multiple sprouts from the same  root?

Oftentimes, Monoembryonic seedlings will sprout out multiple shoots from the same root but this does not make it Polyembryonic. This often happens when the original sprout gets injured.

You may want to check out the roots if you can do it without harming your seedlings.

If each sprout has its own root, then I don’t know what to think. All the Venus I’ve had were Monoembryonic.

Simon

Simon 100% correct on this... best way to tell if mango is mono or poly is usually pretty obvious when you dehusk seed before planting. I haven’t been following this thread but if it hasn’t already been stated cotton candy is polyembryonic...recently dehusked and planted a few.

Joe
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on August 31, 2020, 06:37:44 PM
I found a Phoenix seed that appears to be poly.

I got one more this year with multiple sprouts.  Anyone else seeing this with Phoenix?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: roblack on August 31, 2020, 07:03:42 PM
forgive me if I missed this:

Does anyone know if Ceci Love is mono or poly?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on September 01, 2020, 05:17:11 PM
forgive me if I missed this:

Does anyone know if Ceci Love is mono or poly?

Mono
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: TheGivingTree on September 01, 2020, 07:37:35 PM
I have a 20+ yr old tree in my backyard that was here when I moved in. The closest I can compare it to is a Haden mango but could surely be an unnamed seedling. Of the seeds that sprout they are 90% mono, 10% poly. If mono trees don't have poly seeds, does that mean a poly tree can give 90% mono seeds?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on June 27, 2021, 06:19:18 PM
Someone recently reported that their Kathy(K3/Kryptonite) had a poly seed. Can anyone confirm if Kathy is mono or poly?

I found that one of my Butter Cream seeds was mono but a different Butter cream had what appeared to be a Polyembryonic seed. Here’s a picture of what appears to be a Polyembryonic Butter Cream seed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hJNpKRhy/1-ABFDD3-F-F453-469-F-8-F61-1-C8-A2-EAA1-FEE.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hJNpKRhy)

(https://i.postimg.cc/dkdn1Nyq/EA65571-D-6-F68-433-A-B5-ED-7-AB9-CF289-AD8.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dkdn1Nyq)

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: MangoMikeFl on July 29, 2021, 12:39:29 PM
Does anyone know for sure if Orange Essence is mono or poly.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: cassowary on July 29, 2021, 10:41:35 PM
Polyembryonic mangifera indica seeds produces nucellar clones, they are not a zygotic offspring.
Australian research papper suggest to leave only the most vigorous shoot and cut the others out.


If you hsve plenty of time and space and want to pkant seeds for experiments or just for shits and giggles,  then great but otherwise why are people planting seeds?  With the time, effort  and aforementioned space, just buy grafted trees.  They are available and while they may cost more for some, it will still save monetarily in the long run.

I don't get it ether unless somebody plants hundreds of seeds.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Carilinaa on July 30, 2021, 01:03:02 AM
 ;D ;D
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: driftwood on July 30, 2021, 01:27:53 PM
If you hsve plenty of time and space and want to pkant seeds for experiments or just for shits and giggles,  then great but otherwise why are people planting seeds?  With the time, effort  and aforementioned space, just buy grafted trees.  They are available and while they may cost more for some, it will still save monetarily in the long run.

I don't get it ether unless somebody plants hundreds of seeds.

Growing a root stock from seed and grafting it with a neighbors scion much cheaper than buying a 300$ grafted tree from nursery. Not to say its not worth it, but if you have access to scions. which aren't that hard to find, why not?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: driftwood on July 30, 2021, 01:29:04 PM
Polyembryonic mangifera indica seeds produces nucellar clones, they are not a zygotic offspring.
Australian research papper suggest to leave only the most vigorous shoot and cut the others out.


If you hsve plenty of time and space and want to pkant seeds for experiments or just for shits and giggles,  then great but otherwise why are people planting seeds?  With the time, effort  and aforementioned space, just buy grafted trees.  They are available and while they may cost more for some, it will still save monetarily in the long run.

I don't get it ether unless somebody plants hundreds of seeds.

Interesting!
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Goyo626 on September 23, 2021, 11:03:52 AM

(https://i.postimg.cc/8jhQ93sc/1-AC96600-3035-4-C94-8-C91-08-BEAB865038.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8jhQ93sc) m-4 seed


(https://i.postimg.cc/crqGDZxP/461-FC545-1167-410-D-AEA3-598-A6814-C577.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/crqGDZxP) buttercream seed


To my untrained eye they look poly but can someone with more experience chime in?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on September 24, 2021, 12:31:53 AM
It’s kinda hard to tell, especially without seeing both sides of the seed but they both look mono to me. I call it a poly seed if I see definitive borders or segmentations of the seed. Seeing multiple origins of roots on the same seed is another good indication that a seed is Polyembryonic.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Goyo626 on September 24, 2021, 10:02:27 AM
It’s kinda hard to tell, especially without seeing both sides of the seed but they both look mono to me. I call it a poly seed if I see definitive borders or segmentations of the seed. Seeing multiple origins of roots on the same seed is another good indication that a seed is Polyembryonic.

Simon

I checked both seeds and the m4 does look like mono. But the butter cream fell apart into pieces so im assuming its poly.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on September 24, 2021, 11:17:04 AM
If it fell apart into pieces without breaking, it could be poly. I also found a ButterCream that appeared to be poly but when I planted the seed, only 1 sprout came up. Sometimes the smaller segments of poly seeds just don’t sprout.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Jagmanjoe on August 03, 2022, 07:45:18 AM
I do recognize that this is an old thread, BUT, it looks like more than a few of the posts here spoke of growing a number of varieties from seeds for fruit as well as some that grew specific rootstock to graft and grow different varieties.

Considering the significant rise in prices for grafted trees, I would be very interested in the status of these "experiments".  Not only for actual time to produce fruit and the quality of it but also those who grew specific seedlings and grafted known scions.  The latter of which I would also be interested in the successful grafts, how long it took to produce fruit.

Even with purchasing up to a larger grafted tree, I am hearing that it could take a couple more years in the ground to produce fruit. And to me, even if the seedling doesn't turn out to be a clone of a known variety, if it tastes good it is a win, if it isn't good, a known scion could still be grafted to it.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on June 30, 2023, 04:21:31 PM
Can anyone else confirm that Guava Mango is Polyembryonic? Here’s a seed from Guava mango and this seed look’s Polyembryonic to me because of the segmentation and the multiple root origins.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: gozp on June 30, 2023, 04:39:03 PM
Can anyone else confirm that Guava Mango is Polyembryonic? Here’s a seed from Guava mango and this seed look’s Polyembryonic to me because of the segmentation and the multiple root origins.

Simon

Can anyone else confirm that Guava Mango is Polyembryonic? Here’s a seed from Guava mango and this seed look’s Polyembryonic to me because of the segmentation and the multiple root origins.

Simon

Guava is polyembryonic.

Im.currently growing a seedling, leaves are symmmetrical to guava & leaves smells like guava. Btw, guava variety is priyoor in India.





Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: fliptop on June 30, 2023, 04:57:12 PM
Yep, Guava is polyembryonic.

Also, in my experience (having planted two different seeds from two different sources), Peach Cobbler is polyembryonic.

Here's a question: are Lemon Zest and Orange Sherbet considered sexually reproduced offspring of PPK, or are they considered clones with different "traits" shining through?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: gozp on June 30, 2023, 05:28:08 PM
Can anyone else confirm that Guava Mango is Polyembryonic? Here’s a seed from Guava mango and this seed look’s Polyembryonic to me because of the segmentation and the multiple root origins.

Simon

Can anyone else confirm that Guava Mango is Polyembryonic? Here’s a seed from Guava mango and this seed look’s Polyembryonic to me because of the segmentation and the multiple root origins.

Simon

Guava is polyembryonic.

Im.currently growing a seedling, leaves are symmmetrical to guava & leaves smells like guava. Btw, guava variety is priyoor in India.


Here is my guava/sientalone aka priooor seedling


(https://i.postimg.cc/gxSHzy0Y/20230628-142330.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gxSHzy0Y)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on June 30, 2023, 05:43:44 PM
Yep, Guava is polyembryonic.

Also, in my experience (having planted two different seeds from two different sources), Peach Cobbler is polyembryonic.

Here's a question: are Lemon Zest and Orange Sherbet considered sexually reproduced offspring of PPK, or are they considered clones with different "traits" shining through?

Without genetic testing, I don’t know if LZ and OS are clones with some slight genetic differences or if they are selfed zygotic seedlings. You would think that if they are clones, they would be identical in terms of phenotype and genotype but there may be some genetic drift or epigenetics that can factor into the equation.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on June 30, 2023, 06:23:48 PM
Gozp and fliptop, thanks for the confirmation!

It’s a great tasting variety and Polyembryonic seedlings are great for those growing in colder climates like Southern California. We just need to find out if Guava mango is resistant to our crazy strain of powdery mildew here.

Oh yeah, I forgot to add the picture of the Guava seed


(https://i.postimg.cc/BtQc6W1j/IMG-0861.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BtQc6W1j)

(https://i.postimg.cc/rdXNFKST/IMG-0862.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rdXNFKST)
Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: MadFarm on July 12, 2023, 10:54:41 AM
I have read this whole thread, and much else on this topic... I must have missed something. Can a mango trees' female flowers be pollinated by its own male flowers? If so, even if the seed was mono-embryonic wouldn't it be almost true to type? Or is self fertilization what makes poly-embryonic seeds?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Oolie on July 12, 2023, 01:30:38 PM
I have read this whole thread, and much else on this topic... I must have missed something. Can a mango trees' female flowers be pollinated by its own male flowers? If so, even if the seed was mono-embryonic wouldn't it be almost true to type? Or is self fertilization what makes poly-embryonic seeds?

https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=12030.msg365771#msg365771

Yes, self fertilization is possible. No it does not necessarily almost true to type, if that were the case, seedlings of monoembryonic Indian mangoes would be planted instead for the fruit instead of being grafted. Grafting changed mango cultivation forever when it was introduced to India. And mangoes often have perfect flowers, so the same flower could conceivably pollinate itself.

The link will take you one page back where the cause of Poly seeds is mentioned.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: MadFarm on July 12, 2023, 05:11:18 PM
I have read this whole thread, and much else on this topic... I must have missed something. Can a mango trees' female flowers be pollinated by its own male flowers? If so, even if the seed was mono-embryonic wouldn't it be almost true to type? Or is self fertilization what makes poly-embryonic seeds?

https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=12030.msg365771#msg365771

Yes, self fertilization is possible. No it does not necessarily almost true to type, if that were the case, seedlings of monoembryonic Indian mangoes would be planted instead for the fruit instead of being grafted. Grafting changed mango cultivation forever when it was introduced to India. And mangoes often have perfect flowers, so the same flower could conceivably pollinate itself.

The link will take you one page back where the cause of Poly seeds is mentioned.

Thank you for the response. To be more specific, let's say there was a grafted specimen of a known monoembryonic cultivar in an isolated environment away from any other trees and it flowered and was self pollinated by whatever means of insect or hand and it produced fruit... why wouldn't the seeds be genetically identical?
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Victoria Ave on July 12, 2023, 06:11:25 PM
I have read this whole thread, and much else on this topic... I must have missed something. Can a mango trees' female flowers be pollinated by its own male flowers? If so, even if the seed was mono-embryonic wouldn't it be almost true to type? Or is self fertilization what makes poly-embryonic seeds?

https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=12030.msg365771#msg365771

Yes, self fertilization is possible. No it does not necessarily almost true to type, if that were the case, seedlings of monoembryonic Indian mangoes would be planted instead for the fruit instead of being grafted. Grafting changed mango cultivation forever when it was introduced to India. And mangoes often have perfect flowers, so the same flower could conceivably pollinate itself.

The link will take you one page back where the cause of Poly seeds is mentioned.

Thank you for the response. To be more specific, let's say there was a grafted specimen of a known monoembryonic cultivar in an isolated environment away from any other trees and it flowered and was self pollinated by whatever means of insect or hand and it produced fruit... why wouldn't the seeds be genetically identical?

What you are asking makes sense if you are looking at it that the male and female would be genetically identical in a mono plant and they would combine together to make a totally identical combination.

My (far removed) biology and botany classes would state instead that they are both brining their own sets of genetics and bashing together into a unique new combo of which there are many. Some might be close, some might be radically different. Like parents, their children and siblings.

The poly seems turkey unique because in there there is that genetic mashup, but along for the ride are clones.

I can’t vouch for everything I’m saying here being correct, but I do believe in simple terms that is what is happening.

So even in a Bubble, or large mono crop orchard, that Kent seed is still going to be a wild card!
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Oolie on July 12, 2023, 06:34:50 PM
I have read this whole thread, and much else on this topic... I must have missed something. Can a mango trees' female flowers be pollinated by its own male flowers? If so, even if the seed was mono-embryonic wouldn't it be almost true to type? Or is self fertilization what makes poly-embryonic seeds?

https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=12030.msg365771#msg365771

Yes, self fertilization is possible. No it does not necessarily almost true to type, if that were the case, seedlings of monoembryonic Indian mangoes would be planted instead for the fruit instead of being grafted. Grafting changed mango cultivation forever when it was introduced to India. And mangoes often have perfect flowers, so the same flower could conceivably pollinate itself.

The link will take you one page back where the cause of Poly seeds is mentioned.

Thank you for the response. To be more specific, let's say there was a grafted specimen of a known monoembryonic cultivar in an isolated environment away from any other trees and it flowered and was self pollinated by whatever means of insect or hand and it produced fruit... why wouldn't the seeds be genetically identical?

Sexual versus asexual reproduction.
In sexual reproduction, there will be a rearrangement of genes when gametes fuse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_reproduction
There's a brief intro in the wiki article, but more info will be given in a biology course. The key takeaway is that if sexual reproduction is occurring then you will get a new set of chromosomes as a result, and therefore a unique organism. If you have non-zygotic embryos like you often do with the polyembryonic seedlings, you get a child identical to the parent.

By backcrossing as you are suggesting, you can get similar children to the parent, but by eliminating outcrossing over several generations you tend to lack important evolutionary traits like resistance to disease for example. See the Panama wilt affecting banana monocrops, as they don't even have the benefit of multiple genetic lines from sexual reproduction as they are all asexually reproduced. A new type of wilt affects one plant severely, it affects them all severely and spreads like wildfire.

In a single generation, the traits of the child may still resemble the parent, especially with something like a mango, which has been selected for a great many generations as opposed to other fruit crops which have barely been affected by selective breeding (feijoa and macadamia nuts for example).
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: MadFarm on July 12, 2023, 07:41:26 PM
Thanks for the biology revisit! Makes me wonder if some of our modern examples of cultivars are true clones as they should be or if they came from "close enough" seedlings of the original genetics lending to different performance and traits in newer trees.. I think the rabbit hole is deep enough rite here! Thanks
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Oolie on July 12, 2023, 11:15:44 PM
Thanks for the biology revisit! Makes me wonder if some of our modern examples of cultivars are true clones as they should be or if they came from "close enough" seedlings of the original genetics lending to different performance and traits in newer trees.. I think the rabbit hole is deep enough rite here! Thanks

Definitely, improved varieties can sometimes escape notice unless significantly morphologically significant different.

One interesting one that gets talked about often is COC/CAC, which is thought to be commercial in Vietnam, but doesn't match with the ones in the literature, so it may be an improved seedling.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: TnTrobbie on July 12, 2023, 11:16:30 PM
Got a box of 'Cecilove' mango (34-24) and they all turned out to be mono.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: MadFarm on July 12, 2023, 11:47:45 PM
Thanks for the biology revisit! Makes me wonder if some of our modern examples of cultivars are true clones as they should be or if they came from "close enough" seedlings of the original genetics lending to different performance and traits in newer trees.. I think the rabbit hole is deep enough rite here! Thanks

Definitely, improved varieties can sometimes escape notice unless significantly morphologically significant different.

One interesting one that gets talked about often is COC/CAC, which is thought to be commercial in Vietnam, but doesn't match with the ones in the literature, so it may be an improved seedling.

Good example, heard about discrepancies with USDA selections and other foreign cultivars marketed here under similar names with different domestic origins.

As far as this thread topic this year I have several Phillipine seedlings sprouted all polyembryonic from 3 different trees with 3 different characteristics in the fruit, one being similar in taste to Lemon Merinque. A couple Maha Chanok both polyembryonic and very vigorous. A monoembryonic Duncan. A monoembryonic NDM. Multiple seedlings of a large Indian-ish VP looking fruit from a seedling tree on my property which are all mono, some with double or triple sprouts. A Coconut Cream which just started sprouting and appears to be monoembryonic.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: gozp on July 14, 2023, 07:47:31 PM
Thanks for the biology revisit! Makes me wonder if some of our modern examples of cultivars are true clones as they should be or if they came from "close enough" seedlings of the original genetics lending to different performance and traits in newer trees.. I think the rabbit hole is deep enough rite here! Thanks

Definitely, improved varieties can sometimes escape notice unless significantly morphologically significant different.

One interesting one that gets talked about often is COC/CAC, which is thought to be commercial in Vietnam, but doesn't match with the ones in the literature, so it may be an improved seedling.

Good example, heard about discrepancies with USDA selections and other foreign cultivars marketed here under similar names with different domestic origins.

As far as this thread topic this year I have several Phillipine seedlings sprouted all polyembryonic from 3 different trees with 3 different characteristics in the fruit, one being similar in taste to Lemon Merinque. A couple Maha Chanok both polyembryonic and very vigorous. A monoembryonic Duncan. A monoembryonic NDM. Multiple seedlings of a large Indian-ish VP looking fruit from a seedling tree on my property which are all mono, some with double or triple sprouts. A Coconut Cream which just started sprouting and appears to be monoembryonic.

This made me thought of mercurial marvel, what is the history of it? Could it be a PPK or philippine seedling? hmm
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Oolie on July 18, 2023, 04:19:48 PM
Thanks for the biology revisit! Makes me wonder if some of our modern examples of cultivars are true clones as they should be or if they came from "close enough" seedlings of the original genetics lending to different performance and traits in newer trees.. I think the rabbit hole is deep enough rite here! Thanks

Definitely, improved varieties can sometimes escape notice unless significantly morphologically significant different.

One interesting one that gets talked about often is COC/CAC, which is thought to be commercial in Vietnam, but doesn't match with the ones in the literature, so it may be an improved seedling.

Good example, heard about discrepancies with USDA selections and other foreign cultivars marketed here under similar names with different domestic origins.

As far as this thread topic this year I have several Phillipine seedlings sprouted all polyembryonic from 3 different trees with 3 different characteristics in the fruit, one being similar in taste to Lemon Merinque. A couple Maha Chanok both polyembryonic and very vigorous. A monoembryonic Duncan. A monoembryonic NDM. Multiple seedlings of a large Indian-ish VP looking fruit from a seedling tree on my property which are all mono, some with double or triple sprouts. A Coconut Cream which just started sprouting and appears to be monoembryonic.

I've never seen a poly Maha seed. I know there were mislabeled mahas distributed at some point, sounds like this could explain it.

I found poly O2 seed and mono Taralay seed.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: love_Tropic on July 19, 2023, 05:09:01 PM
Thought LZ is polyembryonic seed, but it looks like mono…  :-\
Can anyone confirm?

(https://i.postimg.cc/sMhgHYcR/IMG-5258.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sMhgHYcR)

(https://i.postimg.cc/PPcqM314/IMG-5259.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PPcqM314)

(https://i.postimg.cc/K40j1vzC/IMG-5260.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/K40j1vzC)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 19, 2023, 07:19:44 PM
Lemon Zest can have mono seeds. I’m not sure if the resulting seedling will be a clone or zygotic.

I’ve got both mono and Polyembryonic seeds from Maha.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: love_Tropic on July 19, 2023, 10:43:58 PM
Lemon Zest can have mono seeds. I’m not sure if the resulting seedling will be a clone or zygotic.

I’ve got both mono and Polyembryonic seeds from Maha.

Simon
Thanks Simon,
Can a LZ Tree produce Mono and Poly seeds? Other 2 Maha seeds are Mono too...
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Oolie on July 21, 2023, 06:24:00 PM
O2 is poly 2/2.

Good thing too.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 21, 2023, 11:03:46 PM
Lemon Zest can have mono seeds. I’m not sure if the resulting seedling will be a clone or zygotic.

I’ve got both mono and Polyembryonic seeds from Maha.

Simon
Thanks Simon,
Can a LZ Tree produce Mono and Poly seeds? Other 2 Maha seeds are Mono too...

Yes. LZ can produce mono and poly seeds. Most of my Maha seeds have mono seeds but I recently found one with a Polyembryonic seed. It had multiple segments and after some incubation, the multiple segments produced separate roots. I normally wouldn’t grow out a Maha seed but this one intrigued me.

I believe Harry Hausman also planted out a poly Maha seed and he fruited one of the seedlings but if I remember correctly, the seedling that he chose happened to be the zygotic seedling so the fruit was completely different.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: love_Tropic on July 23, 2023, 12:09:13 AM
Lemon Zest can have mono seeds. I’m not sure if the resulting seedling will be a clone or zygotic.

I’ve got both mono and Polyembryonic seeds from Maha.

Simon
Thanks Simon,
Can a LZ Tree produce Mono and Poly seeds? Other 2 Maha seeds are Mono too...

Yes. LZ can produce mono and poly seeds. Most of my Maha seeds have mono seeds but I recently found one with a Polyembryonic seed. It had multiple segments and after some incubation, the multiple segments produced separate roots. I normally wouldn’t grow out a Maha seed but this one intrigued me.

I believe Harry Hausman also planted out a poly Maha seed and he fruited one of the seedlings but if I remember correctly, the seedling that he chose happened to be the zygotic seedling so the fruit was completely different.

Simon
Yes Simon, Looks like the 2nd LZ is poly. Can see multiple segments may be like 4

(https://i.postimg.cc/hf4ZvJpz/IMG-5267.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hf4ZvJpz)
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: love_Tropic on July 25, 2023, 03:49:43 PM
Lemon Zest can have mono seeds. I’m not sure if the resulting seedling will be a clone or zygotic.

I’ve got both mono and Polyembryonic seeds from Maha.

Simon
Hi Simon and Other Heroes,
Thanks for your guidance...
I Got one LZ Mono and 2 Maha. seeds. Is it worth growing Mono version of Lemon Zest and Maha? How can it be useful? Are Mono versions of Indo-Chines takes longer than their poly version to fruit? (assuming poly takes 3-5 Yrs) just like understand...
Anyway, I do got Poly Cot. Candy, Cac, LZ, Honey Kiss,M4 and Sweet Tart. Based on lots of feedback in TFF,  ST is the best for SoCal. Not sure on others.
Thanks,
Mike


Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 25, 2023, 10:39:48 PM
Yes, it is totally worth it to grow mono versions of Polyembryonic varieties. This applies only if you have the space to experiment. The mono version of Polyembryonic varieties have approximately 50% of its genes from the maternal parent so if those genes happen to have some beneficial traits from the mother tree, you could get those traits in the fruit of that seedling. Same goes with regular mono varieties.

With the mono version of Polyembryonic varieties, there is the possibility that the single seedling is selfed, it pollinated itself when the fruit was formed, or it was pollinated with another variety(zygotic). In either of these scenarios, there will be a mixing of the genes.

For Lemon Zest as an example, if the seedling was a result of selfing, you know that there is citrus in the genotype/phenotype and selfing may or may not enhance those traits. You could get fruit or growth characteristics that are better than the parent but you could also enhance the bad traits as well!

If the LZ seedling was cross pollinated with another variety, you could a seedling that produces completely different fruit but it could also be very similar to the original parent type fruit depending on what genes are dominant. I know nothing about mango genetics so other factors can play a role in this respect.

I’ve actually been planting E4, Sweet Tart and Lemon Zest seedlings in hopes of growing and fruiting a zygotic seedling (non-clone) in the hopes of getting a better version of the fruit/tree.

It would be awesome to get LZ that is precocious and highly productive without spraying. An E4 that has less fiber and changes color when ripe would be great. Sweet Tart, hmmm, not much I’d change but who knows, maybe it could somehow taste better or grow even more vigorous for me.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Oolie on July 25, 2023, 11:44:48 PM
You shouldn't let the tree fruit until large enough, with most trees that will be the 3-4 year mark depending on vigor. That said the fruit will not usually impress until year 5-6. Some trees take very long to hit their stride, but in SoCal you can usually know by year 7. This is inland in the foothills, it will take longer by the coast.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: love_Tropic on July 26, 2023, 02:32:35 AM
You shouldn't let the tree fruit until large enough, with most trees that will be the 3-4 year mark depending on vigor. That said the fruit will not usually impress until year 5-6. Some trees take very long to hit their stride, but in SoCal you can usually know by year 7. This is inland in the foothills, it will take longer by the coast.
Thanks for the details... Thought Poly can start to flower much earlier. I am thinking to move inland in about 2 years.. until then, hopefully 7,10 or 15 Gal can hold them... Do know some Mono takes up to 10 years. Most of the Indian varieties won't flower until 7 yrs. 
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 26, 2023, 07:16:54 PM
Both mono and Polyembryonic mangos growing in colder climates can flower and hold fruit at a young age, 3-5 years but this can be detrimental to the tree as the resources are diverted to the blooms and fruit. Best to let the tree grow to production size, which can be different for every gardener’s situation, before holding fruit.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Future on July 27, 2023, 08:59:34 AM
Yes, it is totally worth it to grow mono versions of Polyembryonic varieties. This applies only if you have the space to experiment. The mono version of Polyembryonic varieties have approximately 50% of its genes from the maternal parent so if those genes happen to have some beneficial traits from the mother tree, you could get those traits in the fruit of that seedling. Same goes with regular mono varieties.

With the mono version of Polyembryonic varieties, there is the possibility that the single seedling is selfed, it pollinated itself when the fruit was formed, or it was pollinated with another variety(zygotic). In either of these scenarios, there will be a mixing of the genes.

For Lemon Zest as an example, if the seedling was a result of selfing, you know that there is citrus in the genotype/phenotype and selfing may or may not enhance those traits. You could get fruit or growth characteristics that are better than the parent but you could also enhance the bad traits as well!

If the LZ seedling was cross pollinated with another variety, you could a seedling that produces completely different fruit but it could also be very similar to the original parent type fruit depending on what genes are dominant. I know nothing about mango genetics so other factors can play a role in this respect.

I’ve actually been planting E4, Sweet Tart and Lemon Zest seedlings in hopes of growing and fruiting a zygotic seedling (non-clone) in the hopes of getting a better version of the fruit/tree.

It would be awesome to get LZ that is precocious and highly productive without spraying. An E4 that has less fiber and changes color when ripe would be great. Sweet Tart, hmmm, not much I’d change but who knows, maybe it could somehow taste better or grow even more vigorous for me.

Simon

Well, said Simon. Chris at Truly Tropical recently fruited a lemon zest seedling. It appears to have some very interesting traits. It retained the lemon flavor, but also is productive and late season and appears so far to be disease resistant.  Has OS shape. Now I just need to convince her to change the name from Lemon-esh to something more sexy.

Off types from astounding poly fruit hold real promise.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: simon_grow on July 27, 2023, 02:46:22 PM
Future, that is awesome! I hope Chris does a video on this seedling of hers. It could be a game changer if it tastes like LZ or OS and have better disease resistance.

Simon
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Oolie on February 01, 2024, 03:18:52 AM
Has anyone looked at the seed of P-22?

Looking for a superior poly seeded indochinese flavored mango with very low acid and highly creamy texture.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: MasOlas on February 01, 2024, 12:20:46 PM
I bought a ST seedling here from a member last fall and this spring it will be two years old. It's now about 2' tall in a 10 gallon container with three trunks (Poly, as I'm learning) one trunk 2' the others roughly half that size. Do I just treat each truck as a separate tree for pruning when they get bigger? I'm used to trees only having one trunk! I'm planning to put it in a half 55 gallon plastic barrel for a few more years before I finally plant it in the yard.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Oolie on February 08, 2024, 12:42:47 PM
I re-read the thread and wanted to revisit a post from page 2.

Has anyone actually had a PPK seed that was Poly? Gary was only using Mono seed for his project, and he definitely used PPK to select OS and LZ. I certainly see the Gary influence in OS, but not LZ.

Last year I opened 6 PPK husks, all were single large embryos.

I opened many Gary husks, all were poly. Given the number of offspring from Gary's project that produce poly seed and have Gary character (OS, O2, E4, M4, CC (both), and others), it's not like it was an unexpected result.

These results lead me even further down the road of Gary's reported parentage is incorrect. The Pettigrew, sure, but there's a poly parent in there.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: fliptop on February 08, 2024, 08:46:27 PM
Oolie, yes, a few times. But never more than two sprout out, and one has always been sickly and died. But definitely a separate hatchling.
Title: Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
Post by: Eggo on February 09, 2024, 02:26:52 AM
I planted out 4 PPK seedlings last summer. Out of them only 1 sprouted 2 vigorous trunks.  The other 3 was mono.