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Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: TropicalFruitHunters on January 25, 2012, 08:46:42 AM

Title: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: TropicalFruitHunters on January 25, 2012, 08:46:42 AM
I wanted to share a project of mine with everyone.  Many of you from GW may remember some of this but thought I would post again since we have a much wider pool of resources now.  Everyone loves a success story and no one likes sharing failures and I'm certainly not proud of this, but we must learn from both.  Expensive and frustrating of course...but...yeah...butt.

Trying to grow all these wonderful plants in a greenhouse up here in Ohio has caused a fascination/obsession/pipedream of getting my plants to grow faster and fruit sooner.  After traveling to Thailand and scouring the web...especially Bernie Dizon's website, I was convinced that the way to do this was by multiple rootstock grafting of some of my plants...most noteably the more rare, slowest growing, and unfortunately some of the most difficult to grow...and replace!

Dizon's website swears by this method and if one believes all the articles put out in the Philippines concerning this method, then there must be something to it.  It is nothing new, many folks do it here in the states with apples and other fruit.  Joe Real, probably one of the best grafters known, does this technique with a lot of his fruit trees.

Anyways...I decided to try my hand at this method of grafting hoping to speed things along.  This was back in 2007, early in my hobby and more grafting experience would probably have been in my better interest...patience never being one of my strong points!  Again...early enough where I had lost more plants than good sense should permit.

I had a grafted mangosteen that a member from GW was kind enough to purchase from Excalibur and ship to me here.  These were rough plants.  Stunted and oddly shaped.  Slower growing than most of the seedlings I had.  I later purchased two very aggressive growing seedlings from Ong's Nursery in CA and planted them with the grafted plant.

The next candidate was a grafted mayong chid maprang obtained from Frankies.  This was my second attempt at this plant having killed the first not knowing how to recover bare rooted plants.  Unfortunately, that knowledge took more than a few attempts to kick into gear!  I purchased a few seedlings plants at Excalibur while visiting Sheehan...and later Warren.  These too were planted with the grafted plant.

The final object of my mad scientist experiment was a grafted longkong I purchased from either Sadhu or Bryan.  The plant was very tall and pretty much only had leaves up top.  Lots of room for grafting on that long, straight trunk.  Think my mangosteen was freaking slow to flush out any growth?  It was fast compared to this!  I picked up a few seedlings again from either Sadhu or Bryan and planted with the grafted longkong.

The three plants chosen for this experiment are clearly an example of fascination/obsession overriding knowledge and good sense.  I think my only grafting successes to date have been a few citrus grafts!  After several months of allowing the plants to settle in, I began.  I'd like to add here that I'm also a slow grafter.  I believe I take too long trying to make the cuts perfect perfect perfect.  Tedious really.  So armed with internet know-how and watching my Philippine DVD several times, I was ready!

The shape of the mangosteen  presented a real pain in the ass finding and preparing the graft sites.  Due to a low branch...and one of the very few the damn thing had, I opted to do one seedling at a time only doing the second one after the first graft took and healed.  This worked out well.  Both grafts eventually took and seemed to be doing well.  As time went on and after decapitating the seedlings, both continued to try and put forth new growth below the graft.  Six months or so later, one of the grafts died.  The last graft lasted about another year and it too finally died off.  While both grafts seemed to have fused with the main plant, I don't believe they ever really came together as one plant.
(http://s16.postimage.org/okfp9gcz5/Mangosteen_multirootstock.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/okfp9gcz5/)

The maprangs.  I was able to graft both seedlings to the main plant at the same time here.  The seedlings may have been a tad small but both took fine.  After several months and a good fuse, I decapitated the seedlings.  Like the mangosteen, the grafts lasted several months or more but eventually both died off.
(http://s13.postimage.org/t7oijgtxv/Maprang_multirootstock.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/t7oijgtxv/)

Longkong.  Lots of trunk room here and I used it all too!  The folks from the Philippines prepared a cut several inches in length for their approach grafts.  Well hell...if it works for them, it has to work for me!  And I'd like to point out here, and not tooting my own horn, on every single one of these grafts, I eventually had some damn good cuts and matched up the cambiums very well.  The cuts on these longkong looked like they were made for each other.  I wrapped the hell out of them, stood back, and admired my work beaming with the belief that I would soon be eating fresh longkong from my very own multiple rootstocked plant!

Unfortunately, this turned out to be an immediate failure.  No months down the road for this.  After several months of waiting, I removed the wraps only to find that neither freaking graft took.  In fact, you could see where the plant swelled between the rubber band!  Worse yet...it wasn't long after that I lost all three plants.  This was really a kick down below.
(http://s15.postimage.org/hukcr8cyv/longkong_multirootstock.png) (http://postimage.org/)

I have no idea why the grafts that looked successful ended up failing.  Nor do I understand why the longkong grafts failed altogether.  Maybe I dicked around too long with the cuts and getting them put together?  I have learned that just because the graft looks like it has taken, there is no guarantee that the two plants will become one.  I really would like to try my hand at this again.  I've done a lot of grafting since 2007 and maybe, just maybe, I've learned something.

There are more pictures that go with this fiasco if you are interested.  See the link.
http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b358/ohiojay/T%20-%20November%202007%20Multiple%20rootstock%20grafting/?start=all (http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b358/ohiojay/T%20-%20November%202007%20Multiple%20rootstock%20grafting/?start=all)

I know this has already been lengthy but I found a good write-up by Joe Real on this subject and wanted to included it as well.  See below.

Not only can we multigraft several cultivars unto one rootstock, but we can certainly graft one scion cultivar and have it supported by multiple rootstocks. Skeptics call it fancy grafting without added benefits at all, while people doing this with their mango trees in the Philippines have realized benefits in some areas of the country.

Setting aside the costs of doing so, meaning, not really doing economics and commercial applications, just from the point of view of learning something new for citruses, there could be sound ecological theories as to how it could be beneficial. And this is my speculations gathered from an earlier thread that I have posted earlier and you can revisit it here, now that this rootstock forum is a good place to discuss such ideas, useful or otherwise:
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If you don't have time to look through it, this is how my speculation goes:
If you use more than one of the same clonal rootstocks for a single cultivar, that is a wasted effort. But if you use non-sibling rootstock, it would dramatically improve the whole tree's vigor and productivity due to a more aggressive root interactions and hence more efficient nutrient acquisition.

Other advantages that have been mentioned by proponents of multiple rootstocks is that you would have a wider swath of adaptability with two different rootstock types. If one doesn't perform well, the others will simply take over, increasing chances of survival or adaptation. It also minimizes chances of decline from long term graft incompatibility as the others will simply dominate the non-adapted ones.


But it is important to note that in some plants, it has been proven that plants can recognize when they are potted with their siblings or with strangers. Quote:
When strangers share a pot, they develop a competitive streak, but siblings are more considerate of each other. "The ability to recognize and favor kin is common in animals, but this is the first time it has been shown in plants," said Susan Dudley of McMaster University in Canada. After plants are potted, roots branch out to [CENSORED] up water and nutrients. But when several plants of the same species are potted together, things get a little nasty: Each plant flexes its muscles, so to speak, by extending its root growth to try and snatch up valuable resources. Unless, that is, the plants are siblings—each having come from the same mother plant—in which case they become very accommodating, allowing each other ample root space. Because the interactions between related and unrelated plants only happened when plants were in the same pot, where root space is limited, root interactions are likely what gives plants the cue that their neighbor is related. The findings, detailed in the June 12 issue of Biology Letters, may not come as a surprise to seasoned gardeners. 


When two non-sibling plants are planted together in one hole so that their roots come in contact, they would try to flex their resources to reach out the prime space within the same soil, so that whoever will dominate first, will be assured of long term success in the same piece of soil. Then this is reflected back into their above ground growth. Whoever has more established roots occupying the prime spot will be able to invest more in reaching out for the sun dominating the space. So the other one will be out-competed with another.

Now what happens if those two non-sibling plants are grafted unto one scionwood. Of course, they would still flex to out-compete each other in terms of soil space acquisition, but something here is different in that now they support only one plant which in turn support them. What happens here is that we have much more vigorous root system when two non-sibling rootstocks are used, and thus are more likely to have better supply of nutrients to the same scionwood. This is in addition to the perceived advantages of having wider adaptability and hence reliability if rootstocks of different parents are used. Thus it wouldn't make sense to do multiple rootstocks if the rootstocks are either clonal or siblings (coming from the same parents). So if ever multiple rootstocks are used, it would be preferable that the rootstocks be not of the same parents and obviously, different cultivar rootstocks are by default, not from the same parents.

This very same observation can be taken advantage of in another way, and would lend support to the practice of planting multiple trees in one hole if they have clonal or sibling rootstocks. Thus with clonal rootstocks application you can achieve high density plantings even in one hole, or closer together. For those using clonal rootstocks with different cultivars grafted over them, it is recommended practice for home gardeners to plant them together into one hole if you don't know how to graft. The Clonal rootstocks won't compete with each other even if they have different cultivars grafted over them. I have done multiple cultivar planting into one hole and have proven that it works and the trees are now big in my yard. The reason why it worked is because the rootstocks are either siblings or clonal and were fully cooperating with each other, and the one hole with several trees behaved exactly like the size of one regular tree. Of course you would have to know the stature of the cultivar when grafted unto particular rootstock. You would then position the more vigorous grafts towards the north, the less vigorous towards the south, and those of medium and equal vigor to the east and west.

But if the rootstocks are non clonal nor are siblings from the same mother, when you plant them into one hole, then it would be the survival of the most competitive in that one hole.

There is also a chance with specific combo that it will not necessarily work, as there is that scionwood interaction where perhaps the same plant signals, ie, hormones, are passed to the roots so that the different rootstocks in turn would be cooperative rather than competitive. But it is nonetheless exciting to find out.  

Joe comments on Bernie Dizon:  Bernie Dizon is cool. He has received many achievement awards in the field of tropical fruit trees. He promotes multiple rootstock. I have also suggested to Bernie Dizon to use rootstocks that are non-siblings. Apparently, they have used any compatible rootstock they can get hold of and do multiple of them.  

More from Joe:
For sure, the double rootstocks should result in vigorous scionwood growth, now that you have two nutrient suppliers, even if they are siblings. The one scionwood has to balance with the added root system, and so would grow more or balance.

The use of non-siblings would just be better if you can get them. Most likely, you need to get seeds from two sources that don't have the same seed supplier. Then when you do multiple rootstock, combine the various sources into one tree.

In what you did is never a screw up, it would help your tree, as already proven by Bernie Dizon in some of his trials, and they were not aware of the sibling status of rootstocks. Now that we have proof about more stability and vigor of non-sibling rootstocks, I would prefer that approach.

And it is never too late to add more rootstocks later on, so if you can source some seeds that you know are from a different geographic region, you can use those to add rootstocks later on.  
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Fruitguy on January 25, 2012, 09:18:29 AM
On the plus side, if the plant thing doesn't work out, you've got a future as a writer! (Seriously I enjoy your writing style!)   I'm giving you karma points for what is by far the longest post! ;) 
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: GwenninPR on January 25, 2012, 12:10:28 PM
It would be great when you finally perfect this- we will all take a class from you on "how-to".

I like your spunk- if it is worth doing- do it BIG!   Maybe the next trial will hurt less if you start with the cheap and easily replaced plants. 
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: HMHausman on January 25, 2012, 12:36:31 PM
So when can we expect the new attempts to begin??  Your past efforts are about as impressive as your anecdotal reports.....and that's pretty darned impressive.  So.....get going man....you aren't getting any younger!

Harry
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: TropicalFruitHunters on January 25, 2012, 01:16:42 PM
It's tough when you've killed nearly all of your material!!!  One grafted mangosteen from Thailand is barely holding on.  Still have a grafted mayong chid.  The longkong experiment was the last for those.  I would need some decent sized seedlings for the others.  I have seedlings of madrono, achachairu, rambutan, and durian in place for later attempts.  Seedlings that size are painfully slow.  Still smarting over the longkong failing even after four plus years. 
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Jsvand5 on January 25, 2012, 01:49:34 PM
Has your Mayong Chid put put out flowers yet this year? Mine is loaded right now. Hoping to get to try a few more fruit this year.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: TropicalFruitHunters on January 25, 2012, 02:53:33 PM
No...had massive dieback soon after putting it into the ground.  Lost 90% and probably 1/2 the trunk is dead.  Bad move apparently. 
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: murahilin on January 26, 2012, 11:13:44 AM
Jay,
This post makes me want to try some multiple rootstock grafts again but at the same time is scaring me away. Maybe we can try it on Harry's maprang?
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Fruitguy on January 26, 2012, 11:30:52 AM
My sweet maprang ('Wan'?) flowered a month ago, but nothing set.  Do these plants only flower once a season, or like mango, multiple waves?
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: adiel on January 26, 2012, 11:44:21 AM
Good job Jay.  This is how we come about new methods: By experimenting.  This is how we get new varieties, more disease resistance and more cold tolerant tropical fruit trees.  Sometimes it works and sometimes we just learn a lesson.  :o

Adiel 
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: mangomandan on January 26, 2012, 03:16:51 PM
Has anyone had long-term success with planting 2 or 3 tropical fruit trees (let's say mango, for the sake of argument) in one hole?

I'd love to see a picture of two or three ten-foot tall trees sharing one location.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Tim on January 26, 2012, 03:27:17 PM
Has anyone had long-term success with planting 2 or 3 tropical fruit trees (let's say mango, for the sake of argument) in one hole?

I'd love to see a picture of two or three ten-foot tall trees sharing one location.

Harry has a 3 in one.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: murahilin on January 26, 2012, 03:50:04 PM
Harry's neighbor has a ton of 2 in 1 plantings. Different species I think too.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: TropicalFruitHunters on January 27, 2012, 06:58:48 AM
Sheehan...why don't you attempt a multiple rootstock graft onto your Spanish Limes?
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: murahilin on January 27, 2012, 08:18:59 AM
murahilin...why don't you attempt a multiple rootstock graft onto your Spanish Limes?

They seem to do pretty well in FL on their own. Maybe the air layered ones may need a seedling rootstock for some extra support but the grafted ones should be fine.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: TropicalFruitHunters on January 27, 2012, 08:43:46 AM
I wasn't thinking for the added support but for increased vigor and speeding things up some.  Nutmeg?
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: murahilin on January 27, 2012, 02:12:46 PM
I wasn't thinking for the added support but for increased vigor and speeding things up some.  Nutmeg?

Spanish limes are vigorous enough in FL. I think Harry's tree is the slowest growing spanish lime in the history of spanish limes. I think the same goes for his indian jujube. I think they prefer sandier soils so in most of FL they do well, but since Harry has more of a muck they seem to languish. Also, the weevils love the spanish lime leaves.

It may help with nutmeg since I was told that they have nutrient problems with the high ph soils. Still wouldn't be of use when the cold kills them. I hate having to protect anything from the cold. If it can't handle the cold, it deserves to die.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Fruitguy on January 27, 2012, 02:21:45 PM
I hate having to protect anything from the cold. If it can't handle the cold, it deserves to die.

Bite your tongue!  It's crowded enough here.  We do not need all those Northerners moving down when you take away their protection from the cold!   ;) ;D
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: murahilin on January 28, 2012, 12:27:38 AM
I hate having to protect anything from the cold. If it can't handle the cold, it deserves to die.

Bite your tongue!  It's crowded enough here.  We do not need all those Northerners moving down when you take away their protection from the cold!   ;) ;D

Lol. If we had winter hurricanes that would scare them away.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: fruitlovers on January 28, 2012, 02:09:25 AM
Has anyone had long-term success with planting 2 or 3 tropical fruit trees (let's say mango, for the sake of argument) in one hole?

I'd love to see a picture of two or three ten-foot tall trees sharing one location.

I did this with seedling starapple and green sapote and worked out fine. Just ends up looking like a multiple trunked tree. Sometimes they also fuse and become one if really close together.
Oscar
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: fruitlovers on January 28, 2012, 02:12:33 AM
Jay, my guess would be that part of your difficulty comes from your location. Once you are living in Thailand i bet you get close to 100% take on grafts. When the plants are not stressed they take a lot better. But this is all good practive anyway. Also in Thailand you will have lots of willing hands to help you with all!
Oscar
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: FlyingFoxFruits on January 28, 2012, 02:21:59 AM
Have any of you guys/girls, ever seen a scion of a veneer graft, take over all of the cambium, and envelope the entire cambium of the rootstock almost like a strangler fig? and the scion actually rooted, working its way down to soil about 4 inches from graft union??? I've seen this happen with a loquat! Weird Science! :o :)
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: simon_grow on January 30, 2012, 12:15:39 PM
After reading Ohiojay's post and checking out Bernie Dizon's website, I decided I'm going to attempt to put multiple rootstocks onto my Maha Chanok Mango.  I've already purchased a sacrificial Manilla Mango and will attempt my first mango graft soon.  I've never grafted Mango before so I'm guessing it will take many attempts but at least I don't have to top my Manilla Mango untill the graft takes. 

Ohiojay, do you have any advice?  Thanks in advance!

Simon
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: TropicalFruitHunters on January 30, 2012, 02:19:52 PM
Look up approach grafts.  That is what I was using.  There are other grafting methods also.  Get both trees planted together and oriented in a fashion to give you the best angles/places to graft.  Just make sure you match up the cambiums as well as you can and have nice, smooth cuts leaving no gaps.  When you are sure the graft has taken...couple months at least, then I normally break/bend over the top of the nurse plant above the graft.  Several weeks later I will decapitate it completely leaving nothing above the graft from that second tree.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on January 31, 2012, 05:48:43 AM
Hi Ohiojay,

I done an approach-tongue graft on the White sapotes!, the two seedlings with an extra root system are growing very well!
(http://s19.postimage.org/9h2o9jl9b/IMG_2833.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/9h2o9jl9b/)

(http://s19.postimage.org/jsf127cyn/IMG_2839.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/jsf127cyn/)
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: TropicalFruitHunters on January 31, 2012, 07:03:16 AM
Very nice!  Now that is the result we're looking for.  Bryan Brunner demonstrated that method of grafting for us while visiting a few years back.  Makes for a nice clean look.  Thanks for sharing that.  J
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on January 31, 2012, 08:07:09 AM
I glad you liked  the pics! :) This year I'm going to graft two rootstocks on a orange tree that I grafted last year!

 I saw that you done alot multi-root grafting! have you tried using Garcinia xanthochymus for an approach rootstock for Mangosteen?

Regards
Steven
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: TropicalFruitHunters on January 31, 2012, 08:40:40 AM
No I haven't, Steven...getting material to work with is not easy. 
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Fruitguy on January 31, 2012, 10:58:23 AM
Very nice looking graft!  :)
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Future on February 26, 2012, 08:50:22 AM
Thanks for this detailed post and reviving a topic I looked at years ago on GW.   have yet to master the art of grafting but I have tried planting several seeds and seeing if they would fuse into one tree on their own.  So far I have a cashew that appears to have fused.  Trying this also on jackfruit and sugar apple.  The differing species aspect I was not aware of so thanks for this added info.  On a differing not I have also experimented with multiple annuals in one hole (okra, beans, squash) with mixed results so far.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: simon_grow on April 27, 2012, 05:39:39 PM
Hey Ohiojay, have you attempted any more multiple rootstock grafts?  Is there any new information out there.  I tried to go back to Bernie Dizon's website but all the links are now gone!  While doing some research on multiple rootstock technology, I found a thread where you mentioned you watched a DVD regarding multiple rootstock technology, do you have a link or website where I can purchase this DVD? 

Several months ago, I innarched my Maha Chanok mango with a Manilla mango but my technique was absolutely terrible.  It was my first attempt at grafting mango and I was not prepared for the extremely hard woody material on the main trunks where a leaf grows from the main trunk.  I tried to make a single long cut of about 6 inches down the side of both my Maha Chanok and the Manilla Mango and everytime I hit an area where a leaf used to be, my knife would stop and my single cut became about 12 whittling cuts.  My cuts were so uneven and wavy that I was barely able to get any cambium to match.  Now, several months later, I have two portions of my graft that have fused.  One of the segments that fused was on the upper portion of my graft and is about 1/2 and inch long and the other portion that fused is on the lower portion of my graft and about 1/4 inch has fused.  I topped my Manilla Mango when I did the innarching but the Manilla mango has since sprouted new branches which I will remove this weekend.  I wouldn't call my multiple rootstock attempt a success but it is not a complete failure.  I will just have to keep my eye on the Manilla rootstock and pinch back any growth untill the Maha Chanok completely takes over.

Because all my Lychees are air layered and have weak root systems, I would like to add additional rootstocks to them but I would really like to check out that DVD or CD before attempting these grafts.  Thanks in advance!
Simon
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Mike T on April 27, 2012, 08:29:31 PM
Considering the vigour of maprangs it seems hardly worth it to multiple rootstock.I suppose if you had a one of the giant wans and wanted to mollycoddle it it kinda would be more experimental.With durians multiple rootstocks is more hardcore and useful.The juvenile period can be shaved down to 4 years for montongs and gaan yeows.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: TropicalFruitHunters on April 28, 2012, 08:57:19 AM
No such thing as maprang and vigour.  Simon...the video came from a friend in the Philippines demonstrating their longkong multiple rootstock grafting.  I just recently grafted an achachairu seedling to a grafted achachairu plant.  Why?  Just to see what the results might be.  I have others to do but just no time to do them right now.  I never decapitate the nurse plant until I'm positive the graft was a success and on its way.  Good luck!
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Mike T on April 28, 2012, 09:10:25 AM
My mayon chids took off after 3 years  and they do speed up.Trees of friends and my brother needed serious trimming to control them.When you see the huge seedling examples in thailand you realise they not that far behind mangoes once they get going.   
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: HMHausman on April 28, 2012, 02:17:20 PM
My mayon chids took off after 3 years  and they do speed up.Trees of friends and my brother needed serious trimming to control them.When you see the huge seedling examples in thailand you realise they not that far behind mangoes once they get going.   

Well...that is welcomed news.  I can't wait for my Kai Maprang to go "mango" on me growth-wise. 

Harry
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on April 28, 2012, 03:06:19 PM
I'm going to multi-root graft some Jacks...hoping It will drop atleast 2 years of waiting for them to produced!

Has anybody tried multi-rootstock for Jackfruit?
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Guanabanus on April 28, 2012, 05:39:37 PM
Good job, Steven.  That is what I was going to suggest.  I believe I have heard that called "in-arching" also.  Once the graft has taken, it does not have to go through the stress of a later decapitation.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on April 29, 2012, 02:46:46 PM
Good job, Steven.  That is what I was going to suggest.  I believe I have heard that called "in-arching" also.  Once the graft has taken, it does not have to go through the stress of a later decapitation.

Hi Har,
Thanks for the compliment :)

Yes, your right...it is called ''in-arching''
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on April 29, 2012, 03:26:04 PM
Hi :),

The Lucuma seedling is 2 year old and a year ago I planted another lucuma seeds for inarching...It took very well :)

(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd365/Moonshadow69/IMG_5786.jpg)

This year I decided to graft the double rootstock with a scion from my grafted ''La Molina'' tree! The graft was done about 2 weeks ago and it's still alive and kick'n ;D ;D ;D

Thanks to Berto and a knowledgeable gentleman who shall remain anonymous :-X for giving me excellent info and advice on grafting Pouterias and in this case Lucuma...Many thanks my fellow friends...I owe you guys one  ;) ;) ;)
 
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd365/Moonshadow69/IMG_5791.jpg)

(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd365/Moonshadow69/IMG_5794.jpg)

(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd365/Moonshadow69/IMG_5796.jpg)

Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Guanabanus on April 29, 2012, 11:22:55 PM
I believe that there should be a plastic bag over this leafy-scioned cleft graft.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: fruitlovers on April 30, 2012, 03:11:57 AM
My mayon chids took off after 3 years  and they do speed up.Trees of friends and my brother needed serious trimming to control them.When you see the huge seedling examples in thailand you realise they not that far behind mangoes once they get going.   

Well...that is welcomed news.  I can't wait for my Kai Maprang to go "mango" on me growth-wise. 

Harry

Hate to be the spoiler, but at your latitude the maprang will never grow as fast as a mango. But Mike is right in that once they get to be a few years old they speed up, just don't expect warp speed. LOL
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on April 30, 2012, 05:39:39 AM
I believe that there should be a plastic bag over this leafy-scioned cleft graft.

Hi Har,

 I removed it so that I can take a pic. ;)
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: HMHausman on April 30, 2012, 04:48:25 PM
I do notice substantial growth with my maprang.  Buds swell for what seems like eternity, then one day you come out to look and they have all burst out with new growth that really adds substantial inches to the size of the tree.  I could see that once the tree gets some size that the growth would become geometric and that will be something to behold if I can get the tree to some size.

Harry
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Tropicdude on June 30, 2012, 04:36:38 PM
I really want to practice on this, I read through this post again, maybe I missed it, but where does one unite the two rootstock ? above or below the scion graft?

lots of cheap seedling mangoes will be available soon and I want to try this out.

I read that it is suggested that you first must graft your scion then add the other rootstocks later, but I was wondering if one could just graft the scoins after the rootstock have been combined.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: CoPlantNut on August 28, 2012, 02:57:15 PM
I've been practicing my approach grafts by planting all the seeds from jackfruit I've eaten this summer.  I've got a number of little "Frankenstein" jackfruit plants with 3, 4, 5 and 6 rootstocks (mostly not siblings) grafted onto a single top.  My observation so far is that the multi-rootstock plants are sending out larger leaves with shorter internodes than single-rootstock seedlings, and are starting to send out side branches where similar-age single rootstock seedlings are not.  The oldest of my seedlings are only 14 weeks old at this point, so it's still too early to tell if the 6-rootstock plants are different or better than the 3-rootstock plants.

Sample 3-rootstock plant (with two more seedlings to be grafted on):
(http://s18.postimage.org/3vmex8wpx/IMG_0644.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/3vmex8wpx/)
Sample 5-rootstock plant, with 3 more seedlings:
(http://s18.postimage.org/b08tk0td1/IMG_0647.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/b08tk0td1/)

Sadly I don't have the room to run a proper experiment to see what various numbers of rootstocks would do over time...  But if 2 rootstocks is better than 1, is 3 better than 2?  Is 5 better yet?  How about 10 or 20?  At what point would adding more rootstocks be detrimental?

I'm thinking of grafting a few of my existing multi-rootstock plants together to form a plant with 10 or 15 rootstocks (from 9 different fruits, so there will be some sibling rootstocks) just to see what it would do, but I'm curious if anyone has any experience with large numbers of rootstocks on a single plant.

I'll be breaking my own rule of not growing fruit I can get in a "decent" form in local stores if I keep a jackfruit plant over the winter, but perhaps I can make an exception for one with a large number of rootstocks just for the curiosity factor.

Incidentally, after doing about 150 approach grafts so far, I've found on jackfruits that they take much better if the trunk is still green; once it is woody it takes a lot longer to heal and the success rate drops from about 90% to around 50%.  If the supplemental rootstock is still green but being grafted onto a woody trunk, I get about 75% take.  If I was doing the grafting late at night when I was tired, that also negatively affects the success rate.

   Kevin
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Tropicdude on August 28, 2012, 04:05:06 PM
Quote
Incidentally, after doing about 150 approach grafts so far, I've found on jackfruits that they take much better if the trunk is still green; once it is woody it takes a lot longer to heal and the success rate drops from about 90% to around 50%.  If the supplemental rootstock is still green but being grafted onto a woody trunk, I get about 75% take.  If I was doing the grafting late at night when I was tired, that also negatively affects the success rate.

What would be better for mangoes, at green stage or woody? or is it all the same? 
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: CoPlantNut on August 28, 2012, 04:24:45 PM
Quote
Incidentally, after doing about 150 approach grafts so far, I've found on jackfruits that they take much better if the trunk is still green; once it is woody it takes a lot longer to heal and the success rate drops from about 90% to around 50%.  If the supplemental rootstock is still green but being grafted onto a woody trunk, I get about 75% take.  If I was doing the grafting late at night when I was tired, that also negatively affects the success rate.

What would be better for mangoes, at green stage or woody? or is it all the same?

I've only done 2 mango approach grafts so far, both in green stage, with no failures yet, but I can't say anything about doing it with woody mango stems yet.  I would guess that it would be easier and more likely to take in the green-stem stage for almost any plant just due to increased pliability, but that's just a guess.

  Kevin
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Guanabanus on August 28, 2012, 11:32:56 PM
green stage
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Tropicdude on August 29, 2012, 12:43:12 AM
Thanks for the tips, I only have a few seedlings to experiment with so, want to raise the chances of success.  just another question, if I have a small tree, lets say 2 years old, and want to add additional rootstock to it, can I still use green to woody grafts or should I in this case go woody with woody?
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on August 30, 2012, 11:44:30 AM
Hi Kevin,
Those multi-root grafted Jacks look freak'n AWESOME 8) I totally agree with you...green stage has far higher takes than woody ;) I will inarch my Jacks, next year at 30 cm/12in height, so that I get some fruits below the graft union, on both rootstocks 8) I was also thinking of adding more rootstocks as the tree grows...more nutrients and water is absorbed, trees grows much faster, wind tolerant and production will be much earlier than grafted or seedling Jacks 8)

I have seen a Durian with 15 or + rootstocks 8) So...Sky's the limit ;D ;D ;D

Thanks a bunch for sharing :)
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Ethan on August 30, 2012, 12:38:07 PM
I've read where they will plant multiple jak seeds in the ground (7 of them) and as the seedlings grow up they will fuse them together into one tree, much like what Kevin is doing.  I've had thoughts about fusing (inarching) 3 varieties of jak together at the trunk so I can have a multigrafted jak tree. 8)

nice work gents,
-Ethan
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: CoPlantNut on August 30, 2012, 01:29:43 PM
Hi Kevin,
Those multi-root grafted Jacks look freak'n AWESOME 8) I totally agree with you...green stage has far higher takes than woody ;) I will inarch my Jacks, next year at 30 cm/12in height, so that I get some fruits below the graft union, on both rootstocks 8) I was also thinking of adding more rootstocks as the tree grows...more nutrients and water is absorbed, trees grows much faster, wind tolerant and production will be much earlier than grafted or seedling Jacks 8)

I have seen a Durian with 15 or + rootstocks 8) So...Sky's the limit ;D ;D ;D

Thanks a bunch for sharing :)

If Durian can handle 15+ rootstocks, I'd bet a jackfruit can too...  Guess I'll get busy grafting again to see if I can get a compact jackfruit tree to do this:

(http://s11.postimage.org/i8j7g31b3/jackfruit.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/i8j7g31b3/) :)

I've been getting very fast growth on the jackfruit seedlings I've been keeping in my plant room over the summer; the night-time temperature never dips below 70 degrees (21 Celsius) and on a steady diet of low-dose fertilizer they are generally 30cm/12in tall within 3-4 weeks of planting the seed.  The seedling in the picture is 24in (60cm) tall but only 7 weeks old.  The larger leaves at the top grew after the 2nd, 3rd and 4th rootstocks were added. (Burned leaves happened when I let it grow too close to the light.)  Jackfruit seeds I've kept outdoors where temperatures range from 50F-100F are much more slow-growing; after 4 months they are 12in tall.

I've read where they will plant multiple jak seeds in the ground (7 of them) and as the seedlings grow up they will fuse them together into one tree, much like what Kevin is doing.  I've had thoughts about fusing (inarching) 3 varieties of jak together at the trunk so I can have a multigrafted jak tree. 8)

nice work gents,
-Ethan

Trying to create a chimera?  I've heard of that happening from grafting (several examples with citrus trees) but it is a fairly rare occurrence as I understand.

   Kevin
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Ethan on August 30, 2012, 07:41:32 PM
I've also thought about staking the grafts like a totem pole to get multiple varieties.  Chimera, that sounds like a good name for the plant.  Now to create it! Mwahahaha.

-Ethan
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: jwthought81 on September 09, 2012, 12:52:11 AM
I dont mean to hijack this thread, but in keeping with the multiple rootstock theme, do you all have any recommendations for rootstock to be grafted to dwarf variety mangos?  Could grocery store seeds be used with out altering the growth habits of the dwarf trees?

Thanks
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: CoPlantNut on September 09, 2012, 07:00:31 PM
I dont mean to hijack this thread, but in keeping with the multiple rootstock theme, do you all have any recommendations for rootstock to be grafted to dwarf variety mangos?  Could grocery store seeds be used with out altering the growth habits of the dwarf trees?

Thanks

I can't really answer your question, except to say that (counter-intuitively) adding more rootstocks to a plant seems to make it more compact than if it were on a single rootstock.  I've only had a 2-rootstock mango for a month- both from unknown variety supermarket seeds- but the growth flush it sent out after I decapitated the second rootstock was noticeably more compact, and it started sending out side branches.

So to sort of answer your question, I think it may not matter what the seeds are- it seems that having multiple rootstocks acts to make a faster-growing yet more compact tree.  I'm planning on adding a lot of rootstocks to my Pickering mango soon, so I'll have a better answer within a year or so.

   Kevin
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: jwthought81 on September 09, 2012, 08:07:04 PM
Thanks Kevin.

 In the case of dwarf mangoes, isnt a compact tree kind of the idea?  Is this a bad thing?  Im considering doing this with my mallika or ice cream

Also, how old were the seedings when you grafted them?

Any pics?
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: CoPlantNut on September 10, 2012, 12:55:07 AM
Thanks Kevin.

 In the case of dwarf mangoes, isnt a compact tree kind of the idea?  Is this a bad thing?  Im considering doing this with my mallika or ice cream

Also, how old were the seedings when you grafted them?

Any pics?

If you're looking for a tree which is small, precocious and productive, it seems like multiple rootstocks are the way to go.  It seems like a good thing to me!

These mango seedlings were about 6 weeks old when I approach-grafted them together:

(http://s18.postimage.org/a6cytgdmt/IMG_0653.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/a6cytgdmt/)

(the tape above the approach graft is where I just veneer-grafted a Pickering scion on this afternoon; there are two more seeds germinating in the same pot for later additional rootstocks; the aluminum foil in the background is air-layers on some of my miracle fruit.)  If I had to do it again, I would have grafted them together at a younger age.  It seems that the "greener" and more pliable the stem you're working with, the easier the grafts seem to take.  I've even started approach-grafting jackfruit seedlings as soon as they develop their first leaf, about 2 weeks post seed-sowing:

(http://s18.postimage.org/sohbdovet/IMG_0655.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/sohbdovet/)

The two very young stems on the left will almost certainly take based on my prior experience; the young stem on the right grafted onto the woodier stem only stands a 50% chance of taking.  Approach grafts allow you to try again if they fail the first time though- I've even had luck re-doing it in the same spot.

Young, pliable stems are going to be easier to work with if you want to create a poly-rootstock monstrosity:

(http://s18.postimage.org/j2nqxe491/IMG_0654.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/j2nqxe491/)

That jackfruit plant has 7 healed rootstocks plus 7 more recently grafted on, another 6 ready to go in the next round, and 12 more seeds germinating in the pot...  So far it seems to be making the plants grow more vigorously while at the same time making them much more compact, but my oldest multi-rootstock experiment is only 4 months old.

   Kevin
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Ethan on September 10, 2012, 03:14:05 AM
When you finish your posts, you need to add a maniacal laugh and lighting crashing in the background. 

Pretty cool work there Kevin, it'll be interesting to see how your experiment progresses over the long term.  You've inspired me to try a few of my own.

good luck and thanks for informative posts,
-Ethan
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Tropicdude on September 10, 2012, 11:50:10 AM
So Kevin its ok to Approach graft, then add a scion after it takes? or do you recommend grafting the scion first before adding additional rootstocks.   I was was thinking maybe having the additional rootstocks would actually improve success of scion grafts later on ?
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: lkailburn on September 10, 2012, 12:26:44 PM
Nice work Kevin!

-Luke
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: CoPlantNut on September 10, 2012, 01:12:23 PM
So Kevin its ok to Approach graft, then add a scion after it takes? or do you recommend grafting the scion first before adding additional rootstocks.   I was was thinking maybe having the additional rootstocks would actually improve success of scion grafts later on ?

William,

I don't know which is better yet; I've only top-grafted onto a multi-rootstock plant once so far (the mango pictured above), less than 24 hours ago.  I would also think that having multiple rootstocks would improve the chance of an upper scion taking, but that's just a gut feeling.  I'm going to order 20 jackfruit scions from Oscar this week and graft half onto my 10 multiple-rootstock plants, and the other 10 onto single-rootstock plants of identical age, so in 4-6 weeks I'll have a better idea.

Nice work Kevin!

-Luke

Luke, if the Pickering scion takes on that plant, it's yours!  My "big" Pickering is flushing again now and I'll only have room for one over the winter...

   Kevin
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: jwthought81 on September 10, 2012, 06:02:20 PM
Really cool pics and also kind of disturbing :D

I'm planning on adding a lot of rootstocks to my Pickering mango soon, so I'll have a better answer within a year or so.

   Kevin

So I imagine your pickering is grafted and hardwood at this point, correct?  You mentioned that you felt that young, green pliable seedlings were the way to go for the extra rootstock.   How do you plan to graft a young green seedling mango to the older woody pickering? 

Im thinking about the same thing to my mallika and/or ice cream but I dont want to try it a relatively expensive 3 gallon or so woody grafted tree.  Rather use the inexpensive grocery store seed.

Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: CoPlantNut on September 10, 2012, 06:15:46 PM
Really cool pics and also kind of disturbing :D

I'm planning on adding a lot of rootstocks to my Pickering mango soon, so I'll have a better answer within a year or so.

   Kevin

So I imagine your pickering is grafted and hardwood at this point, correct?  You mentioned that you felt that young, green pliable seedlings were the way to go for the extra rootstock.   How do you plan to graft a young green seedling mango to the older woody pickering? 

Yes, my Pickering trunk is woody at this point.  My experience with jackfruit so far is that this just decreases the chance of the graft taking; if both stems are woody I get less than 50% take; it one stem is woody and the other green the percentage starts to go up.  So I'm planning on grafting a very young mango seedling to the woody Pickering trunk and hoping it takes; if it fails I'll try again until I get one to take or until I start to become concerned about damaging the trunk too much. 

Once one seedling approach graft takes, you can graft additional seedlings onto the first (still green) additional rootstock without damaging the main trunk again.  You could just keep working your way out from the main trunk, adding a new rootstock onto the most-recently-added one to keep working with younger stems and not have to bother the woody trunk again.

   Kevin
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Tropicdude on September 10, 2012, 09:46:49 PM
Thanks Kevin for info, I am going to try this weekend on a couple mango seedlings that have not been grafted yet.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: jwthought81 on September 10, 2012, 10:35:10 PM
Very informative Kevin.  Im sure we all appreciate it.

When you graft two young seedlings, how do you decide which becomes the main plants and which gets the axe?
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: CoPlantNut on September 11, 2012, 01:45:55 PM
Very informative Kevin.  Im sure we all appreciate it.

When you graft two young seedlings, how do you decide which becomes the main plants and which gets the axe?

So far I've been making the decision on what top lives based on three factors- if the seedlings are of the same age, I pick whichever looks like it has the qualities I like best (compact but vigorous growth-- so far J-31 seedlings usually win out for this); if one of them is younger than the other I usually let the younger one be the new top because it allows me to keep my experiments short (height-wise) and because it will likely be easier to graft onto later.  For cases where it is a toss-up the seedling from the tastiest fruit wins, or if neither fruit was all that great I just flip a coin.  Since I'm planning on top-grafting Ziman Pink onto all of these experiments it probably won't make a big difference in the long run anyhow.

   Kevin
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: bangkok on December 06, 2012, 09:53:27 AM
How is it going so far with the multiple rootstock tree's?

I got inspired by reading all the posts here and i have the plant to do an open heart operation on my multi-grafted Chocanon.

This chocanon is about 1.5 metre high now but grafted on another rootstock when i bought it. I want to make it a real chocanon rootstock so maybe my grafted scions will also fruit many times a year like chocanon can do.

I plan to put about 5 seeds in the pot next to the tree, graft them all on the trunk and finally cut away the rootstock that it has now.

Has anybody planted a multi-rootstock mango in the full soil and let it fruit ? What were the results of that? Bigger or more fruits? More harvests in a year?
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: CoPlantNut on December 06, 2012, 11:43:23 AM
So far my multi-rootstock trees are happy; they do seem to still be growing more compactly than single-rootstock trees.  None of mine are old enough to make any judgements about fruiting though.

The two-rootstock mango I had pictured above is now top-grafted to 'Pickering' and has 5 total rootstocks:

(http://s14.postimage.org/sa0gedfrx/IMG_0710.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/sa0gedfrx/)

As you can see, it still has a while before it fruits!  The links Jay posted at the beginning of this thread include pictures of multi-rootstock mango trees in the ground in the Philippines.

   Kevin
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on December 06, 2012, 12:15:49 PM
Hi Kevin,
Your Multi-rootstock grafted mango looks fabulous...once these 5 rootstocks kicks into gear, you will definitely have mangoes hang'n before it's 2nd anniversary ;)

Thanks for sharing :)
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: CoPlantNut on December 06, 2012, 01:16:15 PM
The Pickering scion has only been grafted for just under 3 months but it has been constantly flushing new growth for the past 2 months; I suspect it is happy being supported by 5 rootstocks.  It is certainly growing faster than the Pickering the scion came from, which only has 1 rootstock (possibly 2; I haven't unwrapped my latest attempt yet) under identical conditions.

   Kevin
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on December 06, 2012, 02:52:09 PM
Your 'Pickering' with extra rootstocks will definitely grow faster than the mother from which this scion came from. Now, i wonder if the term 'dwarf' mango, still imply for this tree, since it's grower much faster than the mother ???   
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: bangkok on December 06, 2012, 08:59:54 PM
Advantages of Multiple Rootstock Technology
     1. Growth and development is accelerated or double in comparison with single rootstock. Just as a man could travel faster with two feet than one foot, a plant could grow faster with double root systems.
 
     2. The tree becomes more prolific since it overcomes the biennial (alternate) fruiting habit. Remember that plants like mango produces heavy fruiting only after every other year and if forced to bear fruits by applying KNO3, the tree will have a short life span as proven by what happen in Cebu, Zambales, Nueva Ecija and Pangasinan.
 
     3. The tree will have more root system that is essential to absorb the nutrients (fertilizer) applied, thus minimizing fertilizer losses due to evaporation and leaching.
 
     4. The tree will also have better root anchorage that enables the trees to resist strong winds and other adverse conditions.

     5. The gestation period (fruiting) of young trees is shortened by one half of the normal waiting time. Physiological maturity is also enhanced. A fiver-year-old triple rootstock is equivalent to 8-10 year-old fruit tree that bears commercial fruits.
 
     6. The tree will yield early, therefore producing off-season quality fruits which command higher price. The tree becomes non-seasonal due to its reinforced nature.

     7. Plants shall have lesser mortality in the field and have more uniform growth.

     8. Faster propagation or reproduction of the desired variety can be achieved.

     9. Production or yield can be enhanced by up to 300%.

     10. Plant's life span become longer which prolongs and enhances productivity.

     11. Imported varieties of seedlings like jackfruits and guapple will become resistant to Phytophthora when double rootstocked with the native variety. It has been observed that latexless jackfruit, guapple and other imported varieties grown from seeds died of phytophthora after 4-6 years.

http://www.dizonexoticfruittrees.com/ref/technology.htm (http://www.dizonexoticfruittrees.com/ref/technology.htm)

I will start saving mangoseeds from Mun sam rue do and Chocanon to do this to my tree.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: kh0110 on January 03, 2013, 06:26:22 PM
Hello All, I'm curious as to how the experiments go on for different people here who had the courage to try this muti-rootstock grafting. Success, not yet, failure?
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: CoPlantNut on February 07, 2013, 12:23:29 PM
Here's my most successful multi-rootstock experiment to date, now with 21 total rootstocks at 9 months old:
(http://s11.postimage.org/ppt26j5fz/DSCN5458.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ppt26j5fz/)

Jackfruit certainly seem to heal faster than any other woody plant I've tried; the oldest (and physically closest) grafts on that tree are only 7 months old but have fused together so completely you would never know it was originally two separate stems.  It only seems to take 4 months or so for the ugly decapitation points to be completely grown over.

In contast, the multi-rootstock mangoes, carambolas, miracle fruit, mangosteens and achachairu seem to take a lot longer to really fuse properly and none of them look nice after 6 months, but the growth of the top is clearly affected by having multiple rootstocks.  For example, my mangosteen with a G. xanthochymus rootstock is flushing twice as often as the single-rootstock mangosteens, and the achachairu with auxiliary G. intermedia rootstock is growing faster, branching more and much more compact than single-rootstock achachairu-- though in both cases the auxiliary rootstocks don't appear to be well-fused to the main plant and I keep fearing they could fail.

   Kevin
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: fyliu on February 07, 2013, 12:37:37 PM
You are a very skilled grafter Kevin. A whole forest of rootstocks and roots supporting a single main trunk. ;D
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: kh0110 on February 07, 2013, 08:48:04 PM
That is indeed nicely done, Kevin. Thank you for the update.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Berto on February 07, 2013, 09:28:07 PM
Kevin,
Thank you for the update!
If that  tree were my tree, I would repot it into a bigger pot.
If you repot the tree, take a look at the root system!
I prefer to use very tall pots for jackfruit seedlings, the taller the better!
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: bangkok on February 07, 2013, 11:00:58 PM
Nice work Kevin! Please keep us updated about this tree, i would like to see how it will grow and fruit in the future.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: CoPlantNut on February 08, 2013, 10:59:13 AM
Kevin,
Thank you for the update!
If that that tree were my tree, I would repot it into a bigger pot.
If you repot the tree, take a look at the root system!
I prefer to use very tall pots for jackfruit seedlings, the taller the better!

Yes, it needs to be repotted-- it is currently in an 8" pot (roughly 1 gallon size).  I was going to root-prune it lightly and pot it up into a 3 gallon fabric pot; if I have any hope of fruiting this tree, it will have to be extremely bonsai-ed so I need to be quite aggressive with it to keep it small.  I know deep pots are recommended for jackfruit, but given that the total height of the plant including the pot cannot exceed 5.5 feet for my conditions, I'm going to try a shallow but wider pot.

Nice work Kevin! Please keep us updated about this tree, i would like to see how it will grow and fruit in the future.

Given just how small I would need to keep it, I don't hold out much hope for actually getting it to bear fruit, but it was a fun experiment in multi-rootstock grafting.  Hopefully some of the other multi-rootstock plants I have will actually be able to fruit for me.

   Kevin
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on February 08, 2013, 02:50:36 PM
Hi Kevin,
Your multi-graft Jackfruit looks RAD...looks like a pandanus ;D In due time, all them rootstocks will completely fuse and become one plant.  ;)

My White Sapote is almost completely fused...maybe with another year of growing, them two rootstocks will disappear and become one plant 8)

 
(http://s7.postimage.org/txvuuhmnb/IMG_1539.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/txvuuhmnb/)
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: kh0110 on February 08, 2013, 10:33:00 PM
I found this on Gardenweb, check out the mature multi-rootstock durian (scroll to the bottom):

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/tropicalfruits/msg051040244223.html?18 (http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/tropicalfruits/msg051040244223.html?18)

Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: bangkok on February 08, 2013, 11:10:30 PM
Kevin there are many fruit-tree's who made fruits as a bonsai tree, i saw mango hanging on bonsai tree's and many more fruits. Just use the bonsai method for it. The bonsai mangotree's were only 2 feet high so i think you can do it!

(http://s11.postimage.org/upbazlv1r/bonsai_jackfruit_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/upbazlv1r/)
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: northborneo on September 05, 2013, 03:49:22 AM
This is my experiments on multiple rootstocks grafting, its a Durian tree with more than 20 rootstocks and still adding.. I have 15 experimental trees to date :)
(http://s21.postimg.cc/eknz3xz4j/multiplerootstocks.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/eknz3xz4j/)
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: shaneatwell on September 05, 2013, 11:38:01 AM
This is my experiments on multiple rootstocks grafting, its a Durian tree with more than 20 rootstocks and still adding.. I have 15 experimental trees to date :)
(http://s21.postimg.cc/eknz3xz4j/multiplerootstocks.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/eknz3xz4j/)

Funny, I was just rereading this thread yesterday. I'm planning to add multiple rootstocks to some of my in-ground trees to make them hardier and hopefully shorter. Do you see dwarfing as a result of multiple rootstocks? Several people have mentioned this, but I don't think its a universal observation.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Tropicdude on September 05, 2013, 12:33:17 PM
This is my experiments on multiple rootstocks grafting, its a Durian tree with more than 20 rootstocks and still adding.. I have 15 experimental trees to date :)
(http://s21.postimg.cc/eknz3xz4j/multiplerootstocks.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/eknz3xz4j/)

That is really cool, very well done.

but looking at that many rootstocks grafted, I have to assume there is a point where there is less return, I mean the idea off adding more rootstock is so you have more roots nourishing the plant.  but at some point, these roots will be competing for the same nutrients in a given area in the ground. 

So what would be an optimum number?  2? 3? 20? 40?

also it would be great to experiment with different rootstock varieties,  and also above/below grafting.

One multi rootstock idea that I really liked that I saw somewhere, was where the additional rootstocks were grafted to the branches not the trunk of the tree.  this means that these roots would not be competing between each other, also the tree would be super wind resistant.

Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: plantlover13 on September 05, 2013, 04:20:01 PM
This is my experiments on multiple rootstocks grafting, its a Durian tree with more than 20 rootstocks and still adding.. I have 15 experimental trees to date :)
(http://s21.postimg.cc/eknz3xz4j/multiplerootstocks.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/eknz3xz4j/)

That is really cool, very well done.

but looking at that many rootstocks grafted, I have to assume there is a point where there is less return, I mean the idea off adding more rootstock is so you have more roots nourishing the plant.  but at some point, these roots will be competing for the same nutrients in a given area in the ground. 

So what would be an optimum number?  2? 3? 20? 40?

also it would be great to experiment with different rootstock varieties,  and also above/below grafting.

One multi rootstock idea that I really liked that I saw somewhere, was where the additional rootstocks were grafted to the branches not the trunk of the tree.  this means that these roots would not be competing between each other, also the tree would be super wind resistant.

Sort of like a banyan tree, then.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Tropicdude on September 06, 2013, 02:26:39 AM
Yes, exactly,   I guess this could be done easily when the tree is smaller,   just approach graft the branches a foot or so away from the main trunk.  bet a mango tree would look really weird with 5 trunks  ;D
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: socal10b on September 06, 2013, 02:46:49 AM
Has anybody done it with avocado? Thx
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: northborneo on September 06, 2013, 03:17:31 AM
the idea of having a number of rootstocks is to promote  competition between themselves, provided each rootstocks is not related to each other. So by having a competition between the rootstocks, everytime u apply fertilizer, each root will try to grab the most nutrients and faster than the rest. So who benefited?? Its the grafted scion!!!!!  Here is a sample matured mutliple rootstocks Durian tree in Indonesia.. he claimed that his Durian tree produce more than double and
fruits off season(3 times a year), fyi, Durian only fruits once a year.

The very reason why i started this obsession..

(http://s9.postimg.cc/qi2e4uhx7/Duren_Bawor4_e1374861741371.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/qi2e4uhx7/)
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: CoPlantNut on September 06, 2013, 03:51:59 AM
the idea of having a number of rootstocks is to promote  competition between themselves, provided each rootstocks is not related to each other. So by having a competition between the rootstocks, everytime u apply fertilizer, each root will try to grab the most nutrients and faster than the rest. So who benefited?? Its the grafted scion!!!!!  Here is a sample matured mutliple rootstocks Durian tree in Indonesia.. The very reason why i started this obsession..
(http://s9.postimg.cc/qi2e4uhx7/Duren_Bawor4_e1374861741371.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/qi2e4uhx7/)

Yes, I also think having all the rootstocks competing just makes the scion benefit.

My (limited) experience so far is showing that some seedling rootstocks are just better than others-- if multiple-grafted, some just grow thicker and others stay thinner.  As conditions change over time, the "better" rootstocks may change-- the point is that each rootstock is a unique attempt to adapt to the conditions as best as possible.  Some may be better in drought, some in wetness-- but the scion benefits regardless.

It's possible that extra stress hormones caused by root crowding may be what causes more compact growth (at least on all my experiments so far).

I ran an experiment with bell pepper plants this summer; for each of the 5 varieties I'm growing I planted single-rootstock controls and 2-5 different combinations of plants with extra rootstocks grafted on.   The 25 multiple-rootstock plants all seem healthier than the single-rootstock plants and with 1 exception are all out-producing the single-rootstock plants, and with larger fruit.  Some varieties proved to be better additional rootstocks than others; so far in my yard a 'Big Bertha' rootstock seems to make the plant twice as large and fruitful regardless of the variety of the top of the plant.  Even a 'Big Bertha' top benefits from an additional (seedling) 'Big Bertha' rootstock.  It could be that 'Big Bertha' is just the best-adapted to my soil or climate, or that it's just inherently vigorous; either way I want to experiment more with it next year. 

Multiple-rootstock tomatoes seem more vigorous and fruitful as well-- growth is more dense but also larger overall than single-rootstock plants. 

   Kevin
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: msk0072 on September 06, 2013, 04:08:26 AM
This is my experiments on multiple rootstocks grafting, its a Durian tree with more than 20 rootstocks and still adding.. I have 15 experimental trees to date :)
(http://s21.postimg.cc/eknz3xz4j/multiplerootstocks.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/eknz3xz4j/)
Very cool stuff
My question is: If the rootstock is hard (cold, desease) how would you judge the behavour of the main trunk?
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: northborneo on September 06, 2013, 04:49:40 AM
This is my experiments on multiple rootstocks grafting, its a Durian tree with more than 20 rootstocks and still adding.. I have 15 experimental trees to date :)
(http://s21.postimg.cc/eknz3xz4j/multiplerootstocks.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/eknz3xz4j/)
Very cool stuff
My question is: If the rootstock is hard (cold, desease) how would you judge the behavour of the main trunk?

Hi Mike, previously it has 30 rootstocks grafted, but 10 died of Phytophthora, behaviour? no difference.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: msk0072 on September 06, 2013, 08:01:10 AM
That means no extra resistance to disease and to cold with extra rootstocks?
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: shaneatwell on September 06, 2013, 10:53:46 AM
That means no extra resistance to disease and to cold with extra rootstocks?

Or that means he's selected for resistance although the resistant roots didn't save the non-resistant ones.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Tropicdude on September 06, 2013, 05:55:54 PM
Oh I see, the competition factor, didn't think about it that way,  so the trick then  would be to make sure they are different but compatible varieties.  interesting stuff,  , Only thing I have so far is a single mango tree with two rootstocks, that I am now attempting to approach graft.  been attached 2 months, going to give it one more. 
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: msk0072 on September 07, 2013, 05:14:29 PM
Yes very interesting aproach. Differente varieties as multiple rootstock. If the main trunk has extra properties you don't know which rootstock cuntribute more to that property. for example more disease resistant
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: northborneo on September 11, 2013, 12:53:35 AM
I am now experimenting multiple rootstock graftin on a  Mango.. for a start, 7 rootstocks...
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: northborneo on September 11, 2013, 04:31:26 AM
Here are another photos of a successful multiple rootstocks grafting on a durian from Indonesia.
(http://s24.postimg.cc/iw6p46lpt/kakiganda1.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/iw6p46lpt/)

(http://s24.postimg.cc/h33sfv0j5/kakiganda2.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/h33sfv0j5/)
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: fruitnursery on September 14, 2013, 09:42:55 PM
Hi,

Regarding multiple rootstock. In my experience, the method is useful for annual bearing fruit trees. But for some fruit trees that biennial or shy bearing, it is not that useful in terms fruit production.

Multiple rootstock or nurse grafting is used mostly for fruitrees that are on the verge of dying because of root disease or because you're area is a typhoon stricken location.

In thailand, they use this method to preserve their durian gene bank plantation. In indonesia, they use this for mangosteen for faster growth. In my rambutan tree, it causes early fruiting and extension of fruiting.  In my r2e2 mango, it causes off season fruiting. My r2e2 mango tree is now producing 3 times a year of fruit.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Tropicdude on September 17, 2013, 01:21:10 PM
Hi,

Regarding multiple rootstock. In my experience, the method is useful for annual bearing fruit trees. But for some fruit trees that biennial or shy bearing, it is not that useful in terms fruit production.

Multiple rootstock or nurse grafting is used mostly for fruitrees that are on the verge of dying because of root disease or because you're area is a typhoon stricken location.

In thailand, they use this method to preserve their durian gene bank plantation. In indonesia, they use this for mangosteen for faster growth. In my rambutan tree, it causes early fruiting and extension of fruiting.  In my r2e2 mango, it causes off season fruiting. My r2e2 mango tree is now producing 3 times a year of fruit.

That is interesting,  which has me thinking what role rootstock has on the bearing times of trees,  I mean what would happen if you were to use seeds from an early, mid and late variety fruit, as rootstock.   would this change the fruiting season of the grafts?

Its easy to assume that the grafted ( top ) of the tree is the head and determines the harvest dates, but its not unreasonable to think that the rootstock has some influence.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: fruitnursery on September 18, 2013, 10:42:50 AM
Hi,

Regarding multiple rootstock. In my experience, the method is useful for annual bearing fruit trees. But for some fruit trees that biennial or shy bearing, it is not that useful in terms fruit production.

Multiple rootstock or nurse grafting is used mostly for fruitrees that are on the verge of dying because of root disease or because you're area is a typhoon stricken location.

In thailand, they use this method to preserve their durian gene bank plantation. In indonesia, they use this for mangosteen for faster growth. In my rambutan tree, it causes early fruiting and extension of fruiting.  In my r2e2 mango, it causes off season fruiting. My r2e2 mango tree is now producing 3 times a year of fruit.

That is interesting,  which has me thinking what role rootstock has on the bearing times of trees,  I mean what would happen if you were to use seeds from an early, mid and late variety fruit, as rootstock.   would this change the fruiting season of the grafts?

Its easy to assume that the grafted ( top ) of the tree is the head and determines the harvest dates, but its not unreasonable to think that the rootstock has some influence.

Using of multiple rootstock technique can alter the natural psysiological growth of a fruit tree. Thats why you need to experiment for results before using it if its works for the best or not.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: northborneo on March 28, 2014, 02:45:32 AM

(http://s22.postimg.cc/6z9ir6nfh/grafting.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/6z9ir6nfh/)

This is what inarched durian seedling cross section looks like.. It was a successful union but somehow got infected at the joint (Pith/xylem) area. Note the Xylem size of Durio Graveolens.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: FlyingFoxFruits on April 24, 2014, 05:50:18 PM
here is a loquat I recently grafted with two rootstocks...I guess it's a cocktail tree...lol.
(http://s8.postimg.cc/kiia04cyp/4_23_2014_034.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/kiia04cyp/)
(http://s8.postimg.cc/bbzzcu7q9/4_23_2014_033.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/bbzzcu7q9/)


Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: simon_grow on August 19, 2015, 10:26:18 AM
Does anyone have updates on their multiple rootstock fruit trees? I'm especially interested in Kevin and Jackfruitwhisperer69's Frankenstein plants.  I'm really interested in this technology. It is especially interesting how some of the Durian trees rootstocks died, possibly from Phytopthora and the tree and many of its additional rootstocks are still alive.

Earlier in this thread, someone asked about wether it's better to approach graft mango first and then graft the selected scion on top or graft the scion onto the single rootstock first and then approach graft. After performing many Double Stone Grafts, I've found it best to do it at the same time. See this thread: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=16549.0. (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=16549.0.) As Kevin already mentioned, the younger green wood is easier to work with because it's more pliable and you get higher percentage of takes.

The Double Stone Graft technique for mango utilizes young mango seedlings in the copper leaf stage because at this stage, the seedling is still utilizing the seed as a food source. It seems reasonable to assume that most dicots will will be easier to approach graft very soon after sprouting due to the fact they will still be depending on the seed for energy.

Those interested may want to experiment with more difficult to graft fruiting plants utilizing earlier stage or newly sprouted seedlings. This may give better results for plants like Mangosteen. I would assume that many of us that have grafted Mangosteen have performed the grafts when the seedlings have formed several true leaves which I am guessing is past the ideal stage.

Simon
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock graftingt
Post by: Jsvand5 on August 19, 2015, 11:07:21 AM
x
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: stuartdaly88 on August 19, 2015, 07:11:14 PM
I have two young mexican garcinias approach grafted together and fused quite nicely. The one is growing normal speed but the bigger side seems faster than the ungrafed ones I can take pics if anyone wants to see:)
I went through a grafting experiment phase and killed alot of plants :'( so glad these guys made it through.

I also tried cherimoya on soursop and it looked like they fused but they all died soon as I topped them.
Gonna graft two Achachairus together for fun next but I'm wary this time!
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: simon_grow on August 19, 2015, 09:13:55 PM
I'd love to see some pictures. That's a good idea about multi rootstock Mexican Garcinia as they tend to grow extremely slowly at first.

Simon
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: stuartdaly88 on August 20, 2015, 05:07:45 AM
I will try take some better pictures tonight after work. The larger part has 8 leaves and the smaller one only 4 similar to my other single mex garcinias in the same conditions. It slowly looks like it is becoming one trunk:) This was taken a few months ago
(http://s23.postimg.cc/3s79v4kgn/DSC_1123.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/3s79v4kgn/)
(http://s13.postimg.cc/o46f55sdv/DSC_1125.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/o46f55sdv/)
Please dont just my grafting too harshly im an ultimate rookie :'( This is the only success I have had so far but I wont give up yet:)
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: simon_grow on June 18, 2016, 02:31:03 PM
How is everyone's multiple rootstock plants doing? Has anyone planted their multiple rootstock trees into the ground? Anyone get fruit from their trees yet? Thanks,

Simon
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: barath on June 19, 2016, 02:25:31 PM
I still haven't planted my multirootstock mangoes in the ground (I don't really have a place to plant them anyway).  They're still lagging behind the single rootstock mangoes I grafted at the same time -- they've put out probably half the growth.  They're all in 5 gallon pots -- not sure if that's the issue (maybe the multirootstock trees have more roots?).
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: simon_grow on June 19, 2016, 04:53:41 PM
Hey Barath,

Something sounds wrong as the multiple rootstock trees should be growing faster than the single rootstock trees. The pot size should not be the issue since the single rootstock trees are in the same type of pot. Do you have any pictures of your double and single rootstock trees? Did you use Monoembryonic seeds from a vigorous variety such as Kent, Haden or Tommy Atkins?

I get slow growth from Polyembryonic seedlings. Did you use the exact same type of seeds for both your single and multiple rootstock trees?

Simon
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: barath on June 19, 2016, 08:38:07 PM
Hey Barath,

Something sounds wrong as the multiple rootstock trees should be growing faster than the single rootstock trees. The pot size should not be the issue since the single rootstock trees are in the same type of pot. Do you have any pictures of your double and single rootstock trees? Did you use Monoembryonic seeds from a vigorous variety such as Kent, Haden or Tommy Atkins?

I get slow growth from Polyembryonic seedlings. Did you use the exact same type of seeds for both your single and multiple rootstock trees?

Simon

I think that must be the issue -- they're all polyembryonic seedlings (or I'm pretty sure they are), from store-bought Manila mangoes.

I'll save some Kent or Hayden next time.

How are the Indian seeds as seedlings?  I was saving some of the Banganapalli seeds from the recent fruits I bought but tossed the seeds eventually because they got moldy before I had a chance to plant them.  I wonder if Kesars are in the stores around here now.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: simon_grow on June 19, 2016, 09:25:17 PM
Indian mango seeds work great as rootstock but don't use the irradiated ones from India as they will not sprout. I used Alphonso, Mallika and Kesar mango seeds from my tree and my friends tree.

If you use polyembryonic seeds, you can perfom greenwood graft or wait until the second year of growth so that the seedling is stronger and more vigorous. The more vigorous your rootstock, the faster the growth of your tree.

Simon
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: barath on June 20, 2016, 12:05:32 AM
Indian mango seeds work great as rootstock but don't use the irradiated ones from India as they will not sprout. I used Alphonso, Mallika and Kesar mango seeds from my tree and my friends tree.

If you use polyembryonic seeds, you can perfom greenwood graft or wait until the second year of growth so that the seedling is stronger and more vigorous. The more vigorous your rootstock, the faster the growth of your tree.

Simon

Interesting, thanks.  I forgot about the fact that the mangoes from India were irradiated...it was dumb of me to save seeds!
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Guanabanus on June 20, 2016, 05:27:21 PM
Does the irradiation guarantee no germination?   Or does it make for interesting mutants?
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: simon_grow on June 20, 2016, 08:40:09 PM
The irradiation causes most of the seeds to not germinate. Out of about 30 seeds, I got about one third that looked like they were starting to grow and then all of a sudden, they would stop growing. They never sprouted a stalk, I believe what appeared to be growing was actually swelling of the seed from absorption of water. I only got a couple to sprout and I didn't keep track of them so I'm not sure if they survived in the end.

I know that low level radiation can be used to cause mutations such as what they did with W Murcott to create a seedless W Murcott marketed as a Tango tangerine.

Simon
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: barath on June 20, 2016, 09:48:30 PM
Does anyone know if Haitian mangoes are irradiated?  I got some of the Francique Haitian mangoes today.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: 00christian00 on February 14, 2017, 04:24:56 AM
Did anyone try to keep both plants alive, not just the rootstock?
What would happen if let's say you grow 2 mango varieties and let both of them grow? If one rootstock die will both plants live because they are grafted?
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: fruit4me on April 13, 2017, 09:26:39 PM
Grafted a double rootstock peach cobbler for a friend. Rootstocks were from super market fruits, most likely kents or Tommy Atkins. It was planted somtime last year. Full of flowers now, waiting  for right time to remove.

(https://s2.postimg.cc/n9afojlxh/IMG_0140.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/n9afojlxh/)

(https://s2.postimg.cc/6msvfgszp/IMG_0142.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6msvfgszp/)

(https://s2.postimg.cc/jfgzfe4lh/IMG_0144.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/jfgzfe4lh/)
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: geosulcata on April 13, 2017, 09:43:38 PM
My husband does a lot of in-arch grafting of multiple seedling rootstocks on his grafted jackfruit trees. It seems to help push the growth of the trees.

http://youtu.be/AzI_DDN7TeY (http://youtu.be/AzI_DDN7TeY)

(edited to post video)
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: birngerd on June 01, 2019, 09:44:15 AM
Here are pictures of my multi-rootstock Cotton Candy Mango. I tried to pick rootstocks that were distinct from each-other so they might compete more. So far, the rootstocks are seedlings from Lemon Zest, Cotton Candy, Nam Doc Mai, Turpentine, Tommy Atkins, and a local no ID mango. I plan to add some non-indica Mangifera species to it as I'm able to acquire them (I think I have a source for M. casturi and M. zeylanica, I'm still looking for M. odorata). I'm not sure what to expect with all of the rootstocks, but I like the aesthetic at least, so as long as it's not hurting the plant I'll probably keep adding rootstocks to get that "banyan" look. I'm going to put the tree into the ground in July, so I'll probably experiment with planting some seeds into the ground next to the tree and grafting those too to give the tree some undisturbed taproots.


(https://i.postimg.cc/cv9WvKGZ/IMG-2097.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/cv9WvKGZ)

(https://i.postimg.cc/jwNY3Zwd/IMG-2098.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jwNY3Zwd)

(https://i.postimg.cc/GB4CGcbD/IMG-2099.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/GB4CGcbD)

(https://i.postimg.cc/XZt0gTvz/IMG-2100.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XZt0gTvz)
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: simon_grow on June 01, 2019, 01:19:11 PM
My husband does a lot of in-arch grafting of multiple seedling rootstocks on his grafted jackfruit trees. It seems to help push the growth of the trees.

http://youtu.be/AzI_DDN7TeY (http://youtu.be/AzI_DDN7TeY)

(edited to post video)
Geosulcata, thanks for the information and for posting the video. I enjoy the videos your family puts together. I hope you continue to make videos of all the different Mango and Lychee varieties.

Simon
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: simon_grow on June 01, 2019, 01:22:06 PM
Here are pictures of my multi-rootstock Cotton Candy Mango. I tried to pick rootstocks that were distinct from each-other so they might compete more. So far, the rootstocks are seedlings from Lemon Zest, Cotton Candy, Nam Doc Mai, Turpentine, Tommy Atkins, and a local no ID mango. I plan to add some non-indica Mangifera species to it as I'm able to acquire them (I think I have a source for M. casturi and M. zeylanica, I'm still looking for M. odorata). I'm not sure what to expect with all of the rootstocks, but I like the aesthetic at least, so as long as it's not hurting the plant I'll probably keep adding rootstocks to get that "banyan" look. I'm going to put the tree into the ground in July, so I'll probably experiment with planting some seeds into the ground next to the tree and grafting those too to give the tree some undisturbed taproots.


(https://i.postimg.cc/cv9WvKGZ/IMG-2097.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/cv9WvKGZ)

(https://i.postimg.cc/jwNY3Zwd/IMG-2098.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jwNY3Zwd)

(https://i.postimg.cc/GB4CGcbD/IMG-2099.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/GB4CGcbD)

(https://i.postimg.cc/XZt0gTvz/IMG-2100.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XZt0gTvz)

Birngerd, that’s an awesome experiment. I’m glad others in Florida are testing out the multiple rootstock trees. From my experiments, it seems to push the tree to produce at a very young age and keeps the tree more compact.

Simon
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: birngerd on June 01, 2019, 02:40:40 PM

Birngerd, that’s an awesome experiment. I’m glad others in Florida are testing out the multiple rootstock trees. From my experiments, it seems to push the tree to produce at a very young age and keeps the tree more compact.

Simon

I have a small yard, so compactness would be a plus. I plan on starting the same process with Pickering mango soon, so we'll see how that turns out!
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Triloba Tracker on December 02, 2019, 01:18:36 PM
This is really an intriguing topic.

What specific grafts/cuts do we think are most successful?

Also - perhaps a dumb question, how do you tell if the graft is successful? Clearly when you're dealing with scion grafts, it either takes or it doesn't and the signs are obvious.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: simon_grow on December 02, 2019, 06:13:07 PM
This is really an intriguing topic.

What specific grafts/cuts do we think are most successful?

Also - perhaps a dumb question, how do you tell if the graft is successful? Clearly when you're dealing with scion grafts, it either takes or it doesn't and the signs are obvious.

Epicotyl grafts have a extremely high success rate, especially for Mangos. Fresh seedlings with reddish or copper colored leaves and stems accepts scion readily. In this early stage of growth before the leaves turn green, the seedling is mostly dependent on the food reserves in the seed for its energy because the chlorophyll is not up and running yet.

When you double rootstock graft or when you innarch two trees together, you should see the union bulge and maybe even break the parafilm or buddytape as the callous tissue heals over.

Simon
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Triloba Tracker on December 14, 2019, 05:50:14 PM
Sorry - another question:

Mention was made earlier about young seedlings fusing together.
What are the methods involved, if this is a “thing” separate from formal grafting?

I was speculating about nicking very young, soft seedlings and simply wrapping/taping them.
Not sure if doing “surgery” on non-woody tissue is more forgiving than traditional woody grafting.
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: simon_grow on December 16, 2019, 09:51:49 PM
The new growth on seedlings are very soft and juicy. By fusing, they could be referring to grafting them together or maybe even twisting them together or tying them together so that they will naturally fuse together without making any cuts.

Simon
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: Triloba Tracker on December 17, 2019, 12:29:11 PM
The new growth on seedlings are very soft and juicy. By fusing, they could be referring to grafting them together or maybe even twisting them together or tying them together so that they will naturally fuse together without making any cuts.

Simon

Thanks! right - i would really like to know the best method for this if possible - i have limited stock to experiment with.
If just taping 2 brand new seedlings together with no cuts is sufficient, then clearly that would be preferable to injuring the plants.....
Title: Re: Multiple rootstock grafting
Post by: simon_grow on December 17, 2019, 06:22:54 PM
I have always cut my seedlings to join them. I cut about 1/3 to 1/2 way through the fleshy young stem/trunk. When you cut this deep, you get a better union but the seedling can flop over. Once you wrap the Union, it should be able to stand upright again.

Simon