The Tropical Fruit Forum
Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: Zarafet on July 29, 2015, 08:59:37 AM
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On Friday I will be buying two home depot manila mangos to graft onto and was wondering what grafting technique would work for brown wood the thickness slightly larger than a pencil? Any California posters use manila from home depot as a rootstock and if yes, how did you graft onto it for best success?
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I've never seen mangos at any of my local ones. Which one in LA carries them?
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I'm in Riverside County, not sure about la but I'm sure they carry them in all home depots, call your Local home depot or lowes and see if they carry it.
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thanks. There are 2 members here in SoCal that do grafts on the manilas from home depot, member JF and Behlgardens. Both very knowledgeable and active on the board. Hopefully they chime in. :)
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SamiC, if you can get over high grafts ive seen manila, timotayo, Glenn, gold nugget, Kent and keitt mangos at lowes and HD.
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I've done successful bark grafts, veneer grafts and cleft grafts on HD Manilla rootstock. Cleft grafts are the easiest for me but I prefer to use green wood instead of brown wood if possible. I'll try to take some pictures when I get home.
Simon
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Here's a couple pictures of the healed grafts. These are Lemon Zest grafts that were done about 4 months ago. The grafts have pushed out multiple sprouts about two feet already. These Lemon Zest grafts have grown extremely fast but a NDM graft I did on this same tree has only grown 12 inches in about two years.
Simon
(http://s21.postimg.cc/utbecuftv/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/utbecuftv/)
(http://s21.postimg.cc/hsznget9f/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/hsznget9f/)
(http://s21.postimg.cc/jagie88mb/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/jagie88mb/)
(http://s21.postimg.cc/9m32b3dsz/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/9m32b3dsz/)
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Nice inverted graft Simon you've got it down! Beautiful job ;) 8)
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Zarafet - I believe the manilas that HD sells are seedling Manilas from LaVerne and would
probably show no graft line. The others you mention, yes, very high grafts for quick sale
i'm guessing.....
Simon's demonstrated in his pictures a couple very successful cleft grafts. I would guess
that would be the kind you should try, but do take pains to line up the cambium layers
as perfectly as you can. I believe Simon is a pain-stakingly careful grafter.....
Gary
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Gary,
Thanks!!! I meant to say it's a seedling, lol, I have one and I LOVE manila so I decided to let it keep its head, I pugged it LOW. My pride and joy is a 9 year old ataulfo seedling that is a great producer of beautiful mangos. I LOVE ATAULFOS.
I'll try my hardest to be very careful matching the cambium layers, wish me luck.
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Wow Simon that graft looks beautiful. Thank you for taking the time to snap pictures of your handiwork. I really appreciate it. By chance have you video recorded your grafting? I'd subscribe 8)
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Sorry Zarafet, I don't have any videos. If I had three hands, I would definitely be taking videos of all my grafts, lol. My wife has to distract my two kids while I work in the yard so there's nobody to hold a camera. There are many great videos on YouTube regarding cleft grafting mango. Here is one of my favorite grafting videos; https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=19m18s&feature=youtu.be&v=hzBerXm1WCY
I've had many many failed mango grafts before I started getting successful and my best advice is to keep practicing. You can use practice on ornamental trees until you feel comfortable with your skills. Make sure to use the freshest scions you can obtain and make sure there are some buds on them or prep the scion by removing leaves to stimulate new growth buds. If your rootstock is strong and healthy and starting a current vegetative flush, the grafts will take much easier. Let us know how your grafting goes!
Simon
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Great video. I failed all my mango grafts. My veneer skills is very bad. Maybe I should switch to cleft. or something else.
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I used cleft and veneer grafting to seedling mangoes. I got 100% successful rate by using the garden poly tape (http://www.amazon.com/A-M-Leonard-Poly-Budding-Tape/dp/B001FA69SG/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1438261772&sr=8-6&keywords=grafting+tape (http://www.amazon.com/A-M-Leonard-Poly-Budding-Tape/dp/B001FA69SG/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1438261772&sr=8-6&keywords=grafting+tape) ) to tie the connection...very strongly tied to one another is a must, then covering the whole thing with parafilm nursery grafting tape (http://www.amazon.com/Parafilm%C2%AE-Grafting-Tape-Genuine-Clear/dp/B0085OFNVE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1438261772&sr=8-3&keywords=grafting+tape (http://www.amazon.com/Parafilm%C2%AE-Grafting-Tape-Genuine-Clear/dp/B0085OFNVE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1438261772&sr=8-3&keywords=grafting+tape) ) to prevent the lost of moisture. Notes...above links in amazon.com just show you the pictures of the materials that I used only :)
If I want the dedicated tree, I will used cleft grafting. If I want to create the cocktail tree I will use a veneer grafting that I watch on the YouTube from Dr. Richard J. Campbell of Fairchild Tropical Botanic Garden demonstrates how to graft using the veneer technique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jqlX6hqPno (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jqlX6hqPno)
You can graft any time of the year. Some months the scion will push out faster. Cold months the scions will sit there for months. In hot weather (S. California, July to August) the bud will break open the parafilm grafting tape within a week if you stripped the leaves on the scions one or two weeks before grafting. September to October is still okay, but the young leaves from the grafting scion might get damaged due to cold weather in winter here.
Good Luck... ;)
Cleft grafting:
(http://s23.postimg.cc/kaa8i45x3/20140902_155259_1.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/kaa8i45x3/)
Veneer grafting:
The scion grafted into the manila seedling mango that bought from Home Depot last year.
(http://s2.postimg.cc/vn0e1brat/20140417_154909_1.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/vn0e1brat/)
(http://s8.postimg.cc/s2yu0wbwh/20140505_154203_1.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/s2yu0wbwh/)
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I have 16 growth tips on my HD mango. Should I just cleft graft on them instead of doing veneer? They're all roughly the same height, which is 4-5 ft.
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Fyliu,
If you already have 16 growth tips then you should use cleft graft on some of them with different mango scions. Good luck.
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The two Home Depot stores in the northeastern part of San Diego haven't had any mango trees for quite some time. I finally ordered a Manila Mango from one of the local nurseries (Walter Anderson).
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What did they charge Jeff?
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Ok I just grafted Ice cream on a Kent seedling I grew I used Tim Thompsons technique, fingers crossed, this was my first attempt to graft ever!
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Good luck. I'd love a progress report lol
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What did they charge Jeff?
I think it's going to be about $40.00. I put my name and phone number on a faded form on a clipboard at the customer service desk. It was pretty sloppy and unprofessional. I don't intend to give them a dime until I can see the plant.
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That's Costly, but worth it if you can't find one anywhere else.
There's nurseries in SD that sell mangos, did you check them out or did you want a manila for grafting?
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I get some of my Manila seedlings from Exotica and sometimes from Home Depot. They are usually about $25. But I haven't purchased and in about a year. I believe Exotica may give a small discount for CRFG members, not sure.
Simon
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Yeah that's pretty much the same price, I saw them for 23$ today in Hemet.
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I saw the manila mango seedlings (~$24) and Keiit grafted mangos (~$50, good size trunk) at Lowes in City of Industry last week.
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I have one of those keitts... I hate the high graft so I'm growing seedlings to graft it onto. The graft is 3 feet up and I like at least 3 flushes to reach that tall so i can keep it manageable enough to protect. I tried my luck grafting a seedling already and it seems to be doing well although I wrapped the graft with aluminum foil to protect it from the sun, it gets morning sun and afternoon, early evening shade.
Once I have a successful take on a keitt graft I will chop it down to a foot and graft my nam doc mai to it.
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I have one of those keitts... I hate the high graft so I'm growing seedlings to graft it onto. The graft is 3 feet up and I like at least 3 flushes to reach that tall so i can keep it manageable enough to protect. I tried my luck grafting a seedling already and it seems to be doing well although I wrapped the graft with aluminum foil to protect it from the sun, it gets morning sun and afternoon, early evening shade.
Once I have a successful take on a keitt graft I will chop it down to a foot and graft my nam doc mai to it.
You don't know what the hell your talking about. The high graft are done for a reason in SoCal. Take the time to do a forum search and learn
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I have one of those keitts... I hate the high graft so I'm growing seedlings to graft it onto. The graft is 3 feet up and I like at least 3 flushes to reach that tall so i can keep it manageable enough to protect. I tried my luck grafting a seedling already and it seems to be doing well although I wrapped the graft with aluminum foil to protect it from the sun, it gets morning sun and afternoon, early evening shade.
Once I have a successful take on a keitt graft I will chop it down to a foot and graft my nam doc mai to it.
You don't know what the hell your talking about. The high graft are done for a reason in SoCal. Take the time to do a forum search and learn
JF you don't have to be RUDE. This forum is for not only those experienced, but for those learning from the knowledge of those who have lived and learned these experiences prior to us, including yourself. If you don't agree with a poster's comment, there is a more constructive way to reply. I have been looking for the answer for the high grafts previously because I read a post from previous years where you stated that its due to Dave Spellman, but you deferred back to him to provide that answer from his own mouth.
I am still at a standstill as to WHY. If I would have found the information, I would not have thought high grafts were all that bad. If every question was met with your reply, this forum wouldnt be the lovely place it is today.
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Hey Zarafet,
I usually do high grafts when I want to graft onto green wood. The type of high graft I would usually do on green wood is whip, cleft, and veneer (or side cleft is what Socal10b calls it). I’ve also done low grafts on brown wood where the bark has already turn thick and brown. I usually do bark grafts on the brown woody trunk less than 12 inches above the soil line. These grafting methods have worked very well for me. I will post some of my grafts on manila rootstocks when I get home from work.
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I have one of those keitts... I hate the high graft so I'm growing seedlings to graft it onto. The graft is 3 feet up and I like at least 3 flushes to reach that tall so i can keep it manageable enough to protect. I tried my luck grafting a seedling already and it seems to be doing well although I wrapped the graft with aluminum foil to protect it from the sun, it gets morning sun and afternoon, early evening shade.
Once I have a successful take on a keitt graft I will chop it down to a foot and graft my nam doc mai to it.
You don't know what the hell your talking about. The high graft are done for a reason in SoCal. Take the time to do a forum search and learn
JF you don't have to be RUDE. This forum is for not only those experienced, but for those learning from the knowledge of those who have lived and learned these experiences prior to us, including yourself. If you don't agree with a poster's comment, there is a more constructive way to reply. I have been looking for the answer for the high grafts previously because I read a post from previous years where you stated that its due to Dave Spellman, but you deferred back to him to provide that answer from his own mouth.
I am still at a standstill as to WHY. If I would have found the information, I would not have thought high grafts were all that bad. If every question was met with your reply, this forum wouldnt be the lovely place it is today.
Oh I am sorry Sara I didn't realize I was talking to a lady. Our experiences are well documented in this wonderful forum and the high grafts have been address many times.
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JF, now you have me curious as well :). My seaching abilities might need brushing up. But i was having a hard time finding the benefits other then the opportunity for Nurseries to regraft if first arrempts fail. I would assume the benefit is to provide the majority of the trunk protection from the cold as a high graft means that much more of the rootstock's protection. Is that an accurate guess?
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I have one of those keitts... I hate the high graft so I'm growing seedlings to graft it onto. The graft is 3 feet up and I like at least 3 flushes to reach that tall so i can keep it manageable enough to protect. I tried my luck grafting a seedling already and it seems to be doing well although I wrapped the graft with aluminum foil to protect it from the sun, it gets morning sun and afternoon, early evening shade.
Once I have a successful take on a keitt graft I will chop it down to a foot and graft my nam doc mai to it.
You don't know what the hell your talking about. The high graft are done for a reason in SoCal. Take the time to do a forum search and learn
JF you don't have to be RUDE. This forum is for not only those experienced, but for those learning from the knowledge of those who have lived and learned these experiences prior to us, including yourself. If you don't agree with a poster's comment, there is a more constructive way to reply. I have been looking for the answer for the high grafts previously because I read a post from previous years where you stated that its due to Dave Spellman, but you deferred back to him to provide that answer from his own mouth.
I am still at a standstill as to WHY. If I would have found the information, I would not have thought high grafts were all that bad. If every question was met with your reply, this forum wouldnt be the lovely place it is today.
Oh I am sorry Sara I didn't realize I was talking to a lady. Our experiences are well documented in this wonderful forum and the high grafts have been address many times.
JF,
can you provide a link to it. I cant find it.
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My experience on high grafts vs. low grafts is if you get into freezing temps in winter, low graft is at much higher rick of failure as the coldest spot as confirmed by the experts in Agriculture is the first 36 inches as cold and frost sits low. higher graft helps in conditions where you expect temps to dip below 32.
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That makes sense. Question on that, would planting a low grafted tree in a bed raised 3 feet be equally as effective?
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Btw, found a Manila seedling at Home Depot Burbank for $25.
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Nice, did you get it? 8)
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Nice, did you get it? 8)
Of course. And a sue belle sapote. Lol.
It's a disease. ;)
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Btw, found a Manila seedling at Home Depot Burbank for $25.
That's where I got mine 2 years ago. Supply comes and goes.
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I have a suebelle too, it's four years old, only three feet tall, refuses to grow but it's very healthy.
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Zarafet, is your Suebelle almost in constant blooms? I've seen a few Suebelke white sapotes that refuse to grow. They are almost constantly flowering. I was trying to diagnose why and the only thing I can come up with is that they were pot bound and stressed or they were possibly grafted during/ close to flowering season.
Simon
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the suebelle was $25 at home depot also. They even have lemon guava, but Ive already got 3 varieties and saving the space for one of Behls multigrafts.
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Zarafet, is your Suebelle almost in constant blooms? I've seen a few Suebelke white sapotes that refuse to grow. They are almost constantly flowering. I was trying to diagnose why and the only thing I can come up with is that they were pot bound and stressed or they were possibly grafted during/ close to flowering season.
Simon
No, it's never even flowered :(
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Found a good looking Manilla Mango at an Armstrong Garden Center in San Diego yesterday. A bit pricey at $34.99, but it looked healthy and had some good branching.
They also had papaya plants, but they were rather small and didn't look that great.
I put up another 40-50% shade canopy in my backyard over what used to be the killing field for avocado trees. I also added a few 50% sections of shade cloth on the sides to act as wind breaks. Maybe this will be the lucky tree to break the curse and thrive in that section of my yard.
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I had to my LittleCado and hass because the sun ravaged them. :'(
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Of course. And a sue belle sapote. Lol.
I had a 14 years old Sue Belle sapote with great yellow/orange fruits. Just too many fruits to handle. Sapote doesn't taste good if fruit not tree ripen, and so it's a challenge to pick all ripen fruits every other day and give to friends. This is a lot of work. The tree also became quite big -- 20 ft high with 15" trunk. With all consideration I cut and dug it out early this year for a Valencia orange.
Good luck with your tree.
Sapote
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Green wood cleft graft on mango is the easiest. I have 5 out of 5 grafts so far, and I just finished another 4 LZ grafts few days ago. Will see how they take. I didn't use any of the consumer grafting tape -- I just cut a medium thick plastic bag into many 1/2" strips. Before I start wrapping the strip around the union, I used an inch of scotch tape to anchor the end of the strip to the tree, and this helps to start the wrap without slipping.
Sapote
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Of course. And a sue belle sapote. Lol.
I had a 14 years old Sue Belle sapote with great yellow/orange fruits. Just too many fruits to handle. Sapote doesn't taste good if fruit not tree ripen, and so it's a challenge to pick all ripen fruits every other day and give to friends. This is a lot of work. The tree also became quite big -- 20 ft high with 15" trunk. With all consideration I cut and dug it out early this year for a Valencia orange.
Good luck with your tree.
Sapote
Thanks. im excited to get it going. Heard the ripe fruit make a great all natural sorbet.
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I was at Home Depot, Oxnard, CA today and they had plenty of La Verne Manila Mangos for sale.
I could not find a price and because it was a busy day, I did not ask.
(http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x457/Richard_Renshaw/CRFG/La%20Verne/20151111_111534_zpsw5w6vvii.jpg)
(http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x457/Richard_Renshaw/CRFG/La%20Verne/hd_111524_zps7zlzlwpw.jpg)
(http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x457/Richard_Renshaw/CRFG/La%20Verne/hd_111501_zpsvtschdql.jpg)
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Home depot in san Diego is selling them for $24..
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$24.95 at home depot in Burbank as well. But no point in grafting now. wait until late may/june. All the ones I did last month are either stunted or dead. JF, Behl and others mentioned it. I let excitement get the best of me, although truth be told at least I got to practice.
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I think May/June is not good for taking scions though. The fruits are still at the end of those "scions".
I'm not a mango person so I could be wrong about this.
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I remember reading June is when Behl and JF put in their orders for mango scions, if I'm incorrect I hope one of them will chime in with clarification.
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Fruiting branches have no scions. For scions people would prune some branches which will send out new growth for scions -- just my guess.
I did a few V type grafting on mango last month November and they seem to take ok in So Cal 91501. No new shoots out yet though.
Sapote
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I'm not saying the fruiting part is the scion. The leaf nodes below that can be used for scions once the fruits are harvested and given some time to develop buds. Sometimes all the branch tips in the tree are holding fruit and you'd have to sacrifice some in order to produce scions early. But I guess the tree hasn't wasted too much energy in developing fruits if you do it early in the season. Of course, for larger trees, sacrificing a few fruits is not a problem.
Sapote, i need to go visit you sometime. I'm in the same zipcode although my mango is not planted here.
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Fyliu,
Sure and we will talk mangoes:) Weekend is good, PM me.
Here is one graft union I uncover the tape and took pic today. All of my have this same smooth union. It doesn't look like the union from nursery. Mine has a smooth joint and I don't know why the pros grafts have a step between the top V of root stock and the wedge of scion.
(http://s12.postimg.cc/6zxvxukfd/IMG_0550.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/6zxvxukfd/)
Sapote
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Fruiting branches have no scions. For scions people would prune some branches which will send out new growth for scions -- just my guess.
I did a few V type grafting on mango last month November and they seem to take ok in So Cal 91501. No new shoots out yet though.
Sapote
they don't take ok if you are lucky they'll stay green over the winter.
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All of my have this same smooth union. It doesn't look like the union from nursery. Mine has a smooth joint and I don't know why the pros grafts have a step between the top V of root stock and the wedge of scion.
I think you're doing the V-shaped graft while the nurseries do the wedge graft. With wedge, you make a single cut down the center of the rootstock and wedge the scion in there. Do you shave away some more of the rootstock to make it fit better?
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That is a beautiful, smoothly healed graft, Sapote.
i am curious, too. Did you do a v-shaped graft in which you shaped the rootstock as a V, and the scion as a complimentary shaped wedge. Something like an inverted saddle-graft? Or was this a normal cleft graft - just a simple perpendicular cut through the rootstock with a wedged scion inserted? In the latter case, I always get two 'lobes' that look like small wounds, which were the top end of the split rootstock. At least the first year. They heal over quite quickly.
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A wedge graft is a cleft graft. Cleft is the proper term. Do not "shave" or "shape" any of the rootstock. Just try and match the scion size to rootstock size and let it heal and callous over. The union will eventually be unnoticeable.
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Does anyone on this forum use a block plane inplace of a grafting knife ? I've used this on cherimoya with real good results. Never tried it on mango though.
William
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Thanks. I keep forgetting the word because I hardly ever do cleft graft. I searched wedge but couldn't get to the proper term from there.
I have seen people use a plane and also a chisel for cutting the grafting material and it works well for them. I don't do fancy stuff like that because I need time to develop good technique with any tool. So I keep it simple with just a grafting knife.
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"Do you shave away some more of the rootstock to make it fit better?"
Hi Fyliu,
No I didn't shave the rootstock at all -- just a straight cut split at the middle. We all tried to match the scion and root stock but sometimes we just used what available at hand. When the graft took after about 1 month then I removed and re-taped the union again to accommodate the grew larger union, and even at this time -- one month old -- the union looked smooth without the steps of the V. I think the trick was that I scratched a very thin skin off the top of the scion wedge where the root stock top V ended. My thinking was that right at this area the scion wedge taper down to a round stick but the root stock V was flat planes, and so by exposed the scion skin here will help to bond the top V better. That was all the difference. I was quite surprised that the unions after one month healed smooth without any signs of V steps.
Sapote
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If you are in California the way to go is plant the manila in the ground, and get it established. Then starting in June up to maybe September go ahead and cleft graft. I like to take the leaves off the scion that you want to graft and then in a week or two select the scion that has some nice big buds. It's pretty easy as long as you line up the cambium layers, and do it at the right time of year. The time of year when the nights don't get below 60 degrees.
By the way Simon, I'd be happy to film some grafting techniques in the summer. I saw the double graft that you did for Leo, was that a Lemon zest?
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Hey Mark, yes that is a Lemon Zest on Double Stone Graft that I gave to Leo. I also gave Peter a DSGed Lemon Zest to test out at his orchard. That would be great if you could video tape me doing some grafting once it warms up.
For grafting onto Manilla rootstock, I do as Mark mentioned. It is very important for the rootstock to be healthy, vigorous and in a state of growth or close to it. I also prep the scion before removing them from the donor tree whenever possible but I have good success as long as the scion has some buds. Manilla rootstock is very good in SoCal and adapts very well to our soil.
Simon
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Sounds good Simon, I need to learn the "double stone graft" also. We can make a nice instructional video. I did an air-layer video for the San Diego North Couth CRFG a few years back.
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I look forward to seeing this video. A technique that works well here and gives a more vigorous plant will be great.
Wasn't there a really long grafting video that Simon posted? or was that using avocado.
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fyliu, here is the video from Shramajeevi, it is my favorite grafting video. Someone else on this forum shared this video. It talks about multiple grafting technique. https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=19m18s&feature=youtu.be&v=hzBerXm1WCY
Simon
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Watched a load of grafting videos, didn't really grasp the delicate nature of it, until I saw Sapote do it in front of me. Maybe next time I hand out with Sapote ill take a high def video camera.
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Double graft learn this one from Behl. The tree looks strong was planted April 2015 I might let it hold one or two fruits
(http://s8.postimg.cc/gm577nra9/IMG_5470.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/gm577nra9/)
(http://s8.postimg.cc/jhiaeiva9/IMG_5471.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/jhiaeiva9/)
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Fruiting branches have no scions. For scions people would prune some branches which will send out new growth for scions -- just my guess.
I did a few V type grafting on mango last month November and they seem to take ok in So Cal 91501. No new shoots out yet though.
Sapote
Update pic on the graft was done on last year November, just for an experiment on grafting timing. I'm so surprised to see the scion took and sent out one inch new shoot. This is Okrung Tong on 4 years old Kent seedling which also is sending out flowers for the first time.
(http://s13.postimg.cc/kzzdvit37/IMG_0579.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/kzzdvit37/)
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Forget to add that the scion was grafted on a very young still in copper color new shoot from the root stock. It seems the vigorous of the new shoot had helped to push the scion well.
Sapote
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Where did you fellow Californians get your scions from? This is my first month on this forum sobpleawe forgive my ignorance.
-K
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If there's a variety I really want, I usually buy a whole tree from Florida through Plantogram. There are members here like Dongeorgio that also sell scions. If you join the CRFG, you'll probably bump into people that have different grafted varieties growing and may be able to get scions off them.
Simon