Marcotting a seedling

[Ethan]

The latest discussion has me wondering about marcotting a seedling tree?  Could you say grow a longan seedling out and at about 10' airlayer the top off and plant it.  Then allow the airlayer to grow 10' and airlayer the top of that.  Then repeat the process one more time.  Would the resulting plant think it is 30' tall and mature?

-Ethan

[fruitlovers]

The latest discussion has me wondering about marcotting a seedling tree?  Could you say grow a longan seedling out and at about 10' airlayer the top off and plant it.  Then allow the airlayer to grow 10' and airlayer the top of that.  Then repeat the process one more time.  Would the resulting plant think it is 30' tall and mature?

-Ethan

Yes you can do that, but the resulting tree is not going to think it's mature when it's really still juvenille.

[murahilin]

Yes you can do that, but the resulting tree is not going to think it's mature when it's really still juvenille.

What is the tree was old enough to be mature? Wouldn't it effectively be the same thing as air layering new growth on a mature tree? If he keeps on air layering the most mature growth on the seedling wouldn't it be possible that one of the new air layers would eventually fruit? I think it may work Ethan. You should give it a try.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

yes a seedling can be marcotted, and the airlayer will eventually produce fruit. as would the seed.

But the problem is u don't know the quality of the fruit until the tree has produced...this is the reason we don't airlayer seeds with untasted fruits.

The only benefits of marcotting such a seedling tree would be either dwarfing the tree (changing growth habit), or preserving the trees genetics (if it had some other feature that was remarkable, like variegated leaves and such).

[Patrick]

What if you air layer an air layered variety and then graft on a seedling! It would be like the fountain of youth!

[HMHausman]

The latest discussion has me wondering about marcotting a seedling tree?  Could you say grow a longan seedling out and at about 10' airlayer the top off and plant it.  Then allow the airlayer to grow 10' and airlayer the top of that.  Then repeat the process one more time.  Would the resulting plant think it is 30' tall and mature?

-Ethan

Interesting thought....but it isn't the height of a tree that governs the maturity.  Its just the maturity....which of course, usually means there is height......but not always....as in frequest pruning.  I have air layered two seedling trees that have come to mind.  I had a kohala longan seedling that I airlayered and an emperor lychee seedling that I have also air layered.  I did the airlayering just to preserve the genetics...as Adam has suggested.  Just in case the fruit was really good and I somehow lost the parent tree....sort of an insurance policy. My seedling longan was in the process of fruiting when I airlayered it.  The seedling Emperor lychee has never fruited.

Harry

[Ethan]

I have been wondering this for awhile as a way to not only preserve genetics but limit the size of some of these monster trees that I dream about growing.  If it took you 5 years to grow the 10' like in my original question by the time you did your your third airlayer the tree would think it was 15 years old and 30' tall even though the airlayer may only be a few feet tall?  At least in theory?

I'll let you guys know in 15 years.

-Ethan

[murahilin]

I have been wondering this for awhile as a way to not only preserve genetics but limit the size of some of these monster trees that I dream about growing.  If it took you 5 years to grow the 10' like in my original question by the time you did your your third airlayer the tree would think it was 15 years old and 30' tall even though the airlayer may only be a few feet tall?  At least in theory?

I'll let you guys know in 15 years.

-Ethan

I think it should work Ethan. Since each time you will be airlayering from the most mature part of the tree it should retain its maturity allowing you to have a smaller "seedling" all the way to fruition. It only makes sense that it would work because I don't think a longan will revert to its earliest juvenile phase because then any longan air layer would have to start from scratch and that is not the case.

[Ethan]

That is what I was thinking Mura and longan is just an example.  Pretty much anything that may be airlayered might benefit from this?  All of a sudden my plant collection just got shorter.

now to put it into practice,
-Ethan

[fruitlovers]

I think it is hormones in the plant that tell the plant it's age. So airlayering it repeatedly is not going to fool the plant as to what it's real age is.  What can work in some species in fooling the plant about its age is grafting on a piece of mature wood onto a juvenille plant because then some of the mature hormones from that plant spread throughout the plant. I've mentioned this in some other thread.

[murahilin]

I think it is hormones in the plant that tell the plant it's age. So airlayering it repeatedly is not going to fool the plant as to what it's real age is.  What can work in some species in fooling the plant about its age is grafting on a piece of mature wood onto a juvenille plant because then some of the mature hormones from that plant spread throughout the plant. I've mentioned this in some other thread.

Yea I dont think it will trick it to think its older and I don't think that was Ethan's original intention. I think he just wanted to know if he could use the method to keep a seedling small until it fruits by airlayering the most mature part of the tree and if the age would retain with the airlayer. Which it should.

He could probably incorporate your method of grafting a mature branch onto the air layer too and see if that will also help.

[fruitlovers]

I think it is hormones in the plant that tell the plant it's age. So airlayering it repeatedly is not going to fool the plant as to what it's real age is.  What can work in some species in fooling the plant about its age is grafting on a piece of mature wood onto a juvenille plant because then some of the mature hormones from that plant spread throughout the plant. I've mentioned this in some other thread.

Yea I dont think it will trick it to think its older and I don't think that was Ethan's original intention. I think he just wanted to know if he could use the method to keep a seedling small until it fruits by airlayering the most mature part of the tree and if the age would retain with the airlayer. Which it should.

He could probably incorporate your method of grafting a mature branch onto the air layer too and see if that will also help.

OK, but then what is the advantage of repeated air layering to keep it small vs. just pruning it? You also need to consider that air layers take a long time to develop roots and start growing again. Maybe i'm still missing the point?

[murahilin]

OK, but then what is the advantage of repeated air layering to keep it small vs. just pruning it? You also need to consider that air layers take a long time to develop roots and start growing again. Maybe i'm still missing the point?

Pruning may work as well but since the most mature growth is more likely to be on the outer edges of the tree, especially at the top, I think Ethan is intending to preserve the mature growth without sacrificing it by pruning. You are right though about the time of roots forming would probably negate the possible benefits of not pruning off the mature growth. Time wise, they may work out to be the same amount of time because the pruned tree will have a better root system for faster growth without the time delay the air layered tree is going to have to deal with.

I think it is settled Ethan. You need to grow two longan trees from seed. One constantly pruned back and one airlayered everytime it gets too tall. Keep us updated.

[bsbullie]

OK, but then what is the advantage of repeated air layering to keep it small vs. just pruning it? You also need to consider that air layers take a long time to develop roots and start growing again. Maybe i'm still missing the point?

Pruning may work as well but since the most mature growth is more likely to be on the outer edges of the tree, especially at the top, I think Ethan is intending to preserve the mature growth without sacrificing it by pruning. You are right though about the time of roots forming would probably negate the possible benefits of not pruning off the mature growth. Time wise, they may work out to be the same amount of time because the pruned tree will have a better root system for faster growth without the time delay the air layered tree is going to have to deal with.

I think it is settled Ethan. You need to grow two longan trees from seed. One constantly pruned back and one airlayered everytime it gets too tall. Keep us updated.

And I will go buy a truckload of popcorn...

[Ethan]

I think it is hormones in the plant that tell the plant it's age. So airlayering it repeatedly is not going to fool the plant as to what it's real age is.  What can work in some species in fooling the plant about its age is grafting on a piece of mature wood onto a juvenille plant because then some of the mature hormones from that plant spread throughout the plant. I've mentioned this in some other thread.

Please forgive my ignorance, how are plant hormones formed and do they dissipate?  An air layer from a mature (fruiting) tree would contain hormones, even if you did a pencil dia. sized air layer?  After the air layer is planted would the plant still produce hormones from the new root system or would it's reserves of hormones dissipate until the plant has caught up?

Some of my thinking behind air layering and even repeated air layering would be:
1. to reduce the root ball of these plants, many of them have deep tap roots and seedling vigor.  By air layering you could try to manage the root zone better (potted plants).

2.  air layering vs. cutting back, cutting back would seem to produce a larger diameter trunked tree.  For potted purposes it would seem that an air layer from a 20 year old fruiting tree (whether seedling or grafted) would be easier to maintain than a tree with a 15" dia trunk, even if they were only 12' tall.

last query, going back to the air layer of an air layer, in theory, if you had two seedling trees, one you air layered every 5 years (discounting root formation times)  would the 2nd generation air layer from a seedling behave similar to a 15 year old seedling that was cut back as far as time it takes to bloom etc?

thanks for you insights, sounds like a fun experiment to test,
-Ethan

[fruitlovers]

Please forgive my ignorance, how are plant hormones formed and do they dissipate?

Don't know how the hormones are formed. I think they are spread in same way nutrients are spread thru the plant.


  An air layer from a mature (fruiting) tree would contain hormones, even if you did a pencil dia. sized air layer?


Yes, i don't think the diameter of the air layer matters in this respect.


  After the air layer is planted would the plant still produce hormones from the new root system or would it's reserves of hormones dissipate until the plant has caught up?

I don't think the hormones are in the root systme, they are in the parts above the soil line.



Some of my thinking behind air layering and even repeated air layering would be:
1. to reduce the root ball of these plants, many of them have deep tap roots and seedling vigor.  By air layering you could try to manage the root zone better (potted plants).

Yes, air layering is good for potted plants. But for planting in the ground may not be as good, especially in areas prone to high winds, where a good tap root is helpful in keeping the plant from toppling over.



2.  air layering vs. cutting back, cutting back would seem to produce a larger diameter trunked tree.  For potted purposes it would seem that an air layer from a 20 year old fruiting tree (whether seedling or grafted) would be easier to maintain than a tree with a 15" dia trunk, even if they were only 12' tall.

I guess it depends on what you are trying to achieve. I still don't understand your goal? If you are trying to sell a lot of plants then ofcours air layering is beneficial, but if you are only trying to grow one tree, i really don't see your point?



last query, going back to the air layer of an air layer, in theory, if you had two seedling trees, one you air layered every 5 years (discounting root formation times)  would the 2nd generation air layer from a seedling behave similar to a 15 year old seedling that was cut back as far as time it takes to bloom etc?


If you air layer a plant then it is genetically identical to mother plant, but an air layer has about a 3 year lag time to fruiting, because it's going to take that long for it to establish a good root system. So yes, the air layer of the 15 year old plant is still 15 years old in the way it's going to behave, but it's not going to fruit in same way as the 15 year old due to lack of root system. I hope that makes sense?

thanks for you insights, sounds like a fun experiment to test,
-Ethan

[Ethan]

Thank you for all your insights Oscar, they are very helpful.  I'll try to clarify one thing,

2.  air layering vs. cutting back, cutting back would seem to produce a larger diameter trunked tree.  For potted purposes it would seem that an air layer from a 20 year old fruiting tree (whether seedling or grafted) would be easier to maintain than a tree with a 15" dia trunk, even if they were only 12' tall.

I guess it depends on what you are trying to achieve. I still don't understand your goal? If you are trying to sell a lot of plants then ofcours air layering is beneficial, but if you are only trying to grow one tree, i really don't see your point?

Say for example star apple (C. cainito) if I grew out a seedling (in a pot) and just kept cutting it back the trunk diameter of the tree would grow in thickness even though the height of the tree would be kept static.  My idea is if I could age a tree 10 years then air layer it grow it another 10 years, air layer eventually have a tree that thinks it's 30 years old, 50' tall and should be covered in fruit but in reality is only 10' tall and covered in fruit?  Does that make sense?  Instead of a tree that is thick as a brick, make it something more manageable?  If I pull it off, maybe in 30 years I'll start selling air layers.

thank you again,
-Ethan

[fruitlovers]

Say for example star apple (C. cainito) if I grew out a seedling (in a pot) and just kept cutting it back the trunk diameter of the tree would grow in thickness even though the height of the tree would be kept static.  My idea is if I could age a tree 10 years then air layer it grow it another 10 years, air layer eventually have a tree that thinks it's 30 years old, 50' tall and should be covered in fruit but in reality is only 10' tall and covered in fruit?  Does that make sense?  Instead of a tree that is thick as a brick, make it something more manageable?  If I pull it off, maybe in 30 years I'll start selling air layers.

thank you again,
-Ethan

OK, i got you now. But if that's what you want to do why not just buy now an airlayer from a tree that is already 30 years old and save yourself all those years of waiting? Why not just start from a mature air layer? Why do you want to start from seeds?
BTW on a tangent, some lychee air layers can be from trees that are hundreds of years old, especially if you source air layers from China.

[Ethan]

OK, i got you now. But if that's what you want to do why not just buy now an airlayer from a tree that is already 30 years old and save yourself all those years of waiting? Why not just start from a mature air layer? Why do you want to start from seeds?
BTW on a tangent, some lychee air layers can be from trees that are hundreds of years old, especially if you source air layers from China.

Thanks again Oscar.  I already have a bunch of seedling trees to play with and right now more time than $ but if you want to do some trading in the future please let me know............do you have yellow muntingia yet?

cheers,
-Ethan

[nullzero]

Ethan,

Maybe if you plant out enough Rambutan seedlings and see which ones survive outdoor conditions well all year round, you will find that perfect CA rambutan to air layer .

[fruitlovers]

Ethan,

Maybe if you plant out enough Rambutan seedlings and see which ones survive outdoor conditions well all year round, you will find that perfect CA rambutan to air layer .

Rambutans are not at all cold hardy. I think more promising would be to try to graft rambutan onto possibly hardier other species of Nephelium, like Korlan (N. hypoleucum) which comes from hilly cooler northern areas of Thailand.