Huge Illamas from El Salvador 8)

[Jackfruitwhisperer69]

Hi Fellow Members,

Found this vid whilst surfing Youtube...I said to my self I got to share this

Algunas personas confunden esta fruta y le llaman " chirimoya" Estas son Anonas que cuando estan ya maduras se habren y saben sabrosas. Yo en mi viaje conoci dos clases de anonas; la de cascara verde clara y la Gris. Mucha gente prefiera la de cascara gris.

Some people confuse this fruit and call it "cherimoya" These are Anonas that when they are mature, open and you will know the taste. On my trip, I found two kinds of Illama's. A light green and a gray one. Many people prefer the gray one.

Anonas y otras frutas tropicales en el Congo, Santa Ana, El Salvador .

Truly is an awesome Annona...But, due to it's habit of cracking open when mature, is definitely a ''off-putting'' for some people I reckon with a bit of breeding, you can resolve this habit of showing it's goods to the public

I wonder   Are they grown commercially in there native range of Central America? Though, not forgetting of other tropical locations like Brazil, Florida, Hawaii, Queensland...etc

Thanks  

[fruitlovers]

I've heard that ilama is grown on a small commercial scale in El Salvador, Guatemala, and Mexico.

[Future]

I would eat that.

[HMHausman]

Yep...one of my least favorite characteristics about ilama.  In an open air market in the tropics I am afraid to know how they are keeping the bugs out of the cracked fruit.

Harry

[luc]

When they crack open you know they are ripe , not before....
There is also one that has purple pulp , still trying to get this one.

[luc]

Not ripe yet .

[Jackfruitwhisperer69]

Hi Oscar, Future, Harry and Luc,

First of all...thanks for the input, guys

I expected it will be mostly grown in those Central American Countries. I know Illlama is also present in Brazil...not commerical, though.  Especially big collector have them...Just as a novelty, than commercial. Illama has definitely spread to other latitudes...I guess it will be more as a novelty, than as a valid commercial crop, because of the crack before harvest. I have heard wonders of Illama, of it's flavor being most supreme, but, have also heard...no no's Suprior varieties goes a long way...than inferior ones.

I Would also crack that badboy open and savory it's content

I agree to statement too and now that you mentioned it...Markets sure aint a squeaky clean place and eating these fruits that are open will definitely invite flies to a buffet and ultimately contaminating the flesh...I would be afraid too I reckon it will be way better to visit an orchard that grows them organically, to be on the safe side.

That sure is an awesome specimen you have there, Luc More elongated than those ones in the vid...You definitely see a huge range of Ilamas, since you are in their mother land...what do you consider this tree to be truly tropical or can be grown in less tropical conditions?
If I remember correctly...there is an illama growing successfully in the Canary Islands. Thanks for sharing a pic of your Illama with us

[Guanabanus]

At least through the mid-1990's, no attempts to plant groves of ilama had been successful.  The fruits in markets were from volunteer trees in yards and along paths, from tossed seeds.  But experiment stations were working on the matter.

Ilama fruits split when they are still rock hard--- the crack then is sealed with scar tissue.  Vendors usually manage to get the ilama fruits placed at market while still sealed.  Only if the fruits are jostled after softening is the seal broken and sweet smell let out to draw people and flies.

Ilamas picked before splitting tend to be unfit.   Just as Perry Maisson said, "We never sell a wine before its time," we should say, "We never sell a "Papauce" before it splits."

[davidgarcia899]

Yep...one of my least favorite characteristics about ilama.  In an open air market in the tropics I am afraid to know how they are keeping the bugs out of the cracked fruit.

Harry

Harry have you never the heard a Latin say "La parte mas saludable de la fruta es el guzano." The healthiest part of the fruit is the worm

[HMHausman]

Yep...one of my least favorite characteristics about ilama.  In an open air market in the tropics I am afraid to know how they are keeping the bugs out of the cracked fruit.

Harry

Harry have you never the heard a Latin say "La parte mas saludable de la fruta es el guzano." The healthiest part of the fruit is the worm

Yes, and my usual response is that there is truth to that statement for protein deprived cultures.  For us over protein dieted folks, additional insect protein is not such a good thing.  Especially if it is still moving.

Harry

[Cookie Monster]

Not sure about the other countries, but in El Salvador yes. They fetch a pretty decent price in the markets there (somewhere around a $1.50 a piece -- a lot considering the average monthly salary is around $250).

I've heard that ilama is grown on a small commercial scale in El Salvador, Guatemala, and Mexico.

[BMc]

Yep...one of my least favorite characteristics about ilama.  In an open air market in the tropics I am afraid to know how they are keeping the bugs out of the cracked fruit.

Harry

Harry have you never the heard a Latin say "La parte mas saludable de la fruta es el guzano." The healthiest part of the fruit is the worm

Have you heard the English saying: 'It sounded better in Latin'? 

[Jackfruitwhisperer69]

Hi All,

Thanks for y'alls inputs...too

People in those days, had a lot of difficulties to establish an orchard, without the proper information and technology. We now a days, with proper technologies for breeding, propagations and orchard estabishments with the recommended planting densities between plants...etc are more freely shared, by the Department of Agriculture, internet, books...etc To help farmers to succeed and prosper with the choosen crop.

Based on a reseach; Illama likes a dry tropical type climate.

La temperatura media anual es de 25ºc, con una fluctuación de 5 a 7ºc, la máximas promedio es de 40ºc y la mínima promedio de 10ºc,  las máximas se registran de marzo a junio y las mínimas de octubre a febrero.

The average annual temperature is 25ºC/77ºf, with a fluctuation of 5-7°C/41-44ºf, the average maximum is 40°C/104ºf and the average minimum of 10°C/50, the maximum was recorded from March to June and the lowest from October to February.

The seasons are the same over here. Though, the maximum temperature never get to 40ºc/104ºf range. My maximum temperature get's  a bit above 30ºc/86ºf in the peak of summer and the minimum of 13ºc/55ºf in winter(NO frost). So, I reckon illama will do great over here...can't wait to give them a shot

$1.50 a piece is not that expensive for outsiders/gringos...Yikes, 250$ for a months work In my opinion Illama aesthetically speaking is very appealing and alot of tourists will definitely buy and taste this wonderful tropical fruit...Hopefully, they are working to improve the fruits appearance to zip it up...before eating

 

[Cookie Monster]

My brother-in-law once told me that there are indeed ilama cultivars/variations that ripen without splitting. However, they do not appeal to the Central American consumer who judges ripeness based on whether or not it's cracked. It's a bit like trying to get californians to re-learn the concept that ripe avocadoes are green and not black :-).

Unfortunately, I think the crazy civil war of the 80's kept a lot of fruit travelers away from El Salvador, so the more interesting ilama cultivars found in that area have largely gone unnoticed by the North Americans. My brother-in-law, who studies these things, has told me of some rather interesting cultivars -- some that are the size of coconuts, others that bear prodigious crops in infertile soil.

$1.50 a piece is not that expensive for outsiders/gringos...Yikes, 250$ for a months work In my opinion Illama aesthetically speaking is very appealing and alot of tourists will definitely buy and taste this wonderful tropical fruit...Hopefully, they are working to improve the fruits appearance to zip it up...before eating

[siafu]

 Hi Steven,

 Next Spring, remind me to send you some ilama (A. diversifolia) scion material,
 
 so you can try to graft it onto cherimoya. I did some ilama grafts onto cherimoya and they are doing well.

 My ilama came from seeds that Luc sent a few years ago. It has bloomed prolifically this past Spring, but
 
it did not set any fruits... Getting Annonas to set fruit in my dry air continues to be a major problem...

[Jackfruitwhisperer69]

Hi Jeff,
So, there is actually illamas that ripen without splitting...That's freak'n AWESOME They should take advantage of these varieties that don't split when they are ripe, to cater for them tourists and make some extra cash. For generations they have eaten them cracked...I understand why they would prefer them cracked than non-cracked fruits...to assess if they are ripe or not. Nice joke

Yup, it ain't appealing to go to El Salvador, because the past war and gang fights in broad day light...I checked a documentary from Journeymanpictures on youtube on this matter, few months ago   This is most interesting to hear of these variations I have never heard of Illamas get as big as Coconuts and others being very productive in poor soils Thanks a bunch for sharing

Olá Sérgio,
WOW...Thanks so much, Sérgio. Awesome to hear that you successfully grafted Illama onto Cherimoya...I also checked a some pics that Joe, grafted Illama onto cherimola and they look freak'n awsome as well . I reckon since cherimoya is thriving here and using it as a rootstock...Illama will most definitely benefit from this union  I have a few cherimoyas running...hopefully, they will be ready for grafting this spring or I will just buy some at the nursery next year I have some nice news for you...I will send you PM later...got to bounce
 

[Cookie Monster]

:-) Yah. One of these days I need to get budwood. One of my relatives tried to bring some genetic material into the u.s. and got beefed at the airport in miami when they examined the contents of all passengers' checked-in luggage. They've gotten pretty hardcore about intercepting stuff lately :-).

Hi Jeff,
So, there is actually illamas that ripen without splitting...That's freak'n AWESOME They should take advantage of these varieties that don't split when they are ripe, to cater for them tourists and make some extra cash. For generations they have eaten them cracked...I understand why they would prefer them cracked than non-cracked fruits...to assess if they are ripe or not. Nice joke

Yup, it ain't appealing to go to El Salvador, because the past war and gang fights in broad day light...I checked a documentary from Journeymanpictures on youtube on this matter, few months ago   This is most interesting to hear of these variations I have never heard of Illamas get as big as Coconuts and others being very productive in poor soils Thanks a bunch for sharing

Olá Sérgio,
WOW...Thanks so much, Sérgio. Awesome to hear that you successfully grafted Illama onto Cherimoya...I also checked a some pics that Joe, grafted Illama onto cherimola and they look freak'n awsome as well . I reckon since cherimoya is thriving here and using it as a rootstock...Illama will most definitely benefit from this union  I have a few cherimoyas running...hopefully, they will be ready for grafting this spring or I will just buy some at the nursery next year I have some nice news for you...I will send you PM later...got to bounce

[davidgarcia899]

:-) Yah. One of these days I need to get budwood. One of my relatives tried to bring some genetic material into the u.s. and got beefed at the airport in miami when they examined the contents of all passengers' checked-in luggage. They've gotten pretty hardcore about intercepting stuff lately :-).

Hi Jeff,
So, there is actually illamas that ripen without splitting...That's freak'n AWESOME They should take advantage of these varieties that don't split when they are ripe, to cater for them tourists and make some extra cash. For generations they have eaten them cracked...I understand why they would prefer them cracked than non-cracked fruits...to assess if they are ripe or not. Nice joke

Yup, it ain't appealing to go to El Salvador, because the past war and gang fights in broad day light...I checked a documentary from Journeymanpictures on youtube on this matter, few months ago   This is most interesting to hear of these variations I have never heard of Illamas get as big as Coconuts and others being very productive in poor soils Thanks a bunch for sharing

Olá Sérgio,
WOW...Thanks so much, Sérgio. Awesome to hear that you successfully grafted Illama onto Cherimoya...I also checked a some pics that Joe, grafted Illama onto cherimola and they look freak'n awsome as well . I reckon since cherimoya is thriving here and using it as a rootstock...Illama will most definitely benefit from this union  I have a few cherimoyas running...hopefully, they will be ready for grafting this spring or I will just buy some at the nursery next year I have some nice news for you...I will send you PM later...got to bounce

Bring it in your pocket or in a pack of cigarettes in your pocket. I also travel with a can of Planters Mix Nuts and mix my seeds into the can.

[Jackfruitwhisperer69]

Jeff,
What a bummer  I brought a bunch of stuff from SA...with no much problems. But, due to the fact of high risk of terrorisms...security and examines are on their maximum. Don't give up...David, provided some awesome ways to bring them in. Hopefully, you will succeed on the next orden

[murahilin]

Bring it in your pocket or in a pack of cigarettes in your pocket. I also travel with a can of Planters Mix Nuts and mix my seeds into the can.

If possible, just use permits and phytos. Most budwood and seeds can be brought in legally quite easily it seems. It will save you the hassle of getting caught trying to intentionally conceal and not declare plant material.

[FloridaGreenMan]

Yes they split, but it does not affect the flavor nor do insects get into the fruit since the exposed pulp hardens over in the split area crack almost immediately. The one in the photo is is the Genova Red that I grew on my property. It's a very good annona in my opinion. One of my favorites.     

[Jackfruitwhisperer69]

Sérgio,
Forgot to comment on your illama not producing any ...Have you tried to hand pollinate your illamas? and Isn't there a way to bring the humidity up in the greenhouse Perhaps, a humidifier

Hi FloridaGreenMan,
First of all thanks for sharing your pics with us...they look most impressive and awesome Oh, I thought that illama after splitting will remain soft and creamy like cherimoya. So, when the fruit is in contact with the air..,it hardens almost immediately Didn't know that about Illama...with the new facts comming into play. I'm not repelled from the sight of a cracked open fruit, at all...it really looks great that way. But, westerners prefer a fruit zip up, than the good's showing

[FloridaGreenMan]

Sérgio,
Forgot to comment on your illama not producing any ...Have you tried to hand pollinate your illamas? and Isn't there a way to bring the humidity up in the greenhouse Perhaps, a humidifier

Hi FloridaGreenMan,
First of all thanks for sharing your pics with us...they look most impressive and awesome Oh, I thought that illama after splitting will remain soft and creamy like cherimoya. So, when the fruit is in contact with the air..,it hardens almost immediately Didn't know that about Illama...with the new facts comming into play. I'm not repelled from the sight of a cracked open fruit, at all...it really looks great that way. But, westerners prefer a fruit zip up, than the good's showing

When they split, that does not mean they are ready to eat at that moment. I would pick them after splitting and let them sit on my counter for a day or two until the entire skin softened up. Then they were ready to eat.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Yah, that's what we need to do next time.

Bring it in your pocket or in a pack of cigarettes in your pocket. I also travel with a can of Planters Mix Nuts and mix my seeds into the can.

If possible, just use permits and phytos. Most budwood and seeds can be brought in legally quite easily it seems. It will save you the hassle of getting caught trying to intentionally conceal and not declare plant material.

[Jackfruitwhisperer69]

Sérgio,
Forgot to comment on your illama not producing any ...Have you tried to hand pollinate your illamas? and Isn't there a way to bring the humidity up in the greenhouse Perhaps, a humidifier

Hi FloridaGreenMan,
First of all thanks for sharing your pics with us...they look most impressive and awesome Oh, I thought that illama after splitting will remain soft and creamy like cherimoya. So, when the fruit is in contact with the air..,it hardens almost immediately Didn't know that about Illama...with the new facts comming into play. I'm not repelled from the sight of a cracked open fruit, at all...it really looks great that way. But, westerners prefer a fruit zip up, than the good's showing

When they split, that does not mean they are ready to eat at that moment. I would pick them after splitting and let them sit on my counter for a day or two until the entire skin softened up. Then they were ready to eat.

So, the crack is just a way of telling the grower...i'm ready and you can harvest me. just let me lie around for few days to soften up and i'm ready for  eating. I know this isn't relevant to the illama...I harvest cherimoya's when they are mature, with a smooth touch of the skin and i then let them lie around, till they get ''soft'' as well

[fruitlovers]

Bring it in your pocket or in a pack of cigarettes in your pocket. I also travel with a can of Planters Mix Nuts and mix my seeds into the can.

If possible, just use permits and phytos. Most budwood and seeds can be brought in legally quite easily it seems. It will save you the hassle of getting caught trying to intentionally conceal and not declare plant material.

Murahilin, you are right about seeds, but not about budwood. For seeds you can get a small seed lot permit, which is free, make sure the seeds are clean, and declare them. Budwood is just like a plant, and you need to have a phyto sanitary certificate from originating country, in this case El Salvador, and an import permit from the USDA before bringing in the material. If you get caught bringing in material without declaring it you can be fined. I believe in USA you are looking at a fine of at least $500. In some countries it is much higer. A visiting Israeli customer told me he was fined $10,000 for trying to smuggle in plant material.

[murahilin]

If possible, just use permits and phytos. Most budwood and seeds can be brought in legally quite easily it seems. It will save you the hassle of getting caught trying to intentionally conceal and not declare plant material.

Murahilin, you are right about seeds, but not about budwood. For seeds you can get a small seed lot permit, which is free, make sure the seeds are clean, and declare them. Budwood is just like a plant, and you need to have a phyto sanitary certificate from originating country, in this case El Salvador, and an import permit from the USDA before bringing in the material. If you get caught bringing in material without declaring it you can be fined. I believe in USA you are looking at a fine of at least $500. In some countries it is much higer. A visiting Israeli customer told me he was fined $10,000 for trying to smuggle in plant material.

Well that's why I said "use permits and phytos". In some places it is much easier to get a phyto than others. In Trinidad for example, you just go to the airport before your flight and get a phyto. Makes it pretty easy to bring stuff in. You are also allowed to bring in up to 12 articles with you into the USA without a permit if you have a phyto. You can bring entire plants with you from a trip without a permit as long as you have a phyto and the species is not restricted. If you do plan to bring the tree in, just make sure it does not require a 2 year PEQ.

I guess the level of difficulty depends on how easy it is to get the required phyto in the country you are departing from.

[fruitlovers]

If possible, just use permits and phytos. Most budwood and seeds can be brought in legally quite easily it seems. It will save you the hassle of getting caught trying to intentionally conceal and not declare plant material.

Murahilin, you are right about seeds, but not about budwood. For seeds you can get a small seed lot permit, which is free, make sure the seeds are clean, and declare them. Budwood is just like a plant, and you need to have a phyto sanitary certificate from originating country, in this case El Salvador, and an import permit from the USDA before bringing in the material. If you get caught bringing in material without declaring it you can be fined. I believe in USA you are looking at a fine of at least $500. In some countries it is much higer. A visiting Israeli customer told me he was fined $10,000 for trying to smuggle in plant material.

Well that's why I said "use permits and phytos". In some places it is much easier to get a phyto than others. In Trinidad for example, you just go to the airport before your flight and get a phyto. Makes it pretty easy to bring stuff in. You are also allowed to bring in up to 12 articles with you into the USA without a permit if you have a phyto. You can bring entire plants with you from a trip without a permit as long as you have a phyto and the species is not restricted. If you do plan to bring the tree in, just make sure it does not require a 2 year PEQ.

I guess the level of difficulty depends on how easy it is to get the required phyto in the country you are departing from.

It was the "guite easily" part of your statement i was replying to. In most countries it is not easy to get a phyto, that includes the USA. As time goes on USDA have made it harder and more costly to get a phyto in USA. Price now is $82. You have to file it online at least one day before going to ag, and then wait for an hour or more at airport while they rubber stamp everything. In most latin american countries it is very difficult. In some countries it is nearly impossible. That is why USDA moved from policy of requiring a phyto for everything to the exception of Small Seed Lot permit, which allows you to bring seeds in without a phyto. I think they were swayed by some people trying to import that the USDA requirements were practically impossible to meet in many countries. About 10+ years ago you didn't need a phyto for anything entering USA. Everything was inspected by USDA as it came in and if clean was cleared.
Those were the good ole days!

[murahilin]

It was the "guite easily" part of your statement i was replying to. In most countries it is not easy to get a phyto, that includes the USA. As time goes on USDA have made it harder and more costly to get a phyto in USA. Price now is $82. You have to file it online at least one day before going to ag, and then wait for an hour or more at airport while they rubber stamp everything. In most latin american countries it is very difficult. In some countries it is nearly impossible. That is why USDA moved from policy of requiring a phyto for everything to the exception of Small Seed Lot permit, which allows you to bring seeds in without a phyto. I think they were swayed by some people trying to import that the USDA requirements were practically impossible to meet in many countries. About 10+ years ago you didn't need a phyto for anything entering USA. Everything was inspected by USDA as it came in and if clean was cleared.
Those were the good ole days!

I think "quite easily" was a poor choice of words on my part. I know that it can be difficult in some countries to get a phyto but I much rather go through the red tape than face possible fines or charges in the US. As for the countries where getting the phyto is very difficult or impossible, I'd rather do without the budwood than not declare something at the border.

I never got to experience the good ol days of importing plant material. All I've known were the days with strict rules so I guess that's why it may not bother me as much as others who have been doing it longer.

I think having stuff mailed is the best way to go because if the person mailing neglected to include the phyto, it is not your fault.

[fruitlovers]

I think "quite easily" was a poor choice of words on my part. I know that it can be difficult in some countries to get a phyto but I much rather go through the red tape than face possible fines or charges in the US. As for the countries where getting the phyto is very difficult or impossible, I'd rather do without the budwood than not declare something at the border.

I never got to experience the good ol days of importing plant material. All I've known were the days with strict rules so I guess that's why it may not bother me as much as others who have been doing it longer.

I think having stuff mailed is the best way to go because if the person mailing neglected to include the phyto, it is not your fault.

OK now i'm in total agreement with you. It's not worth the hassle and possible fines, also the possibility you could introduce some pest/disease you don't even know about. You also have to keep in mind that any flights into USA go through pretty stringent security both on departure and on arrival. Mailing is best if possible. Not always possible because from some countries the mail is so slow that by the time it gets here it will be mush. You should also do a thorough check that the material you are trying to obtain is not already in the USA, most times it already is! If you can get the material from inside the country that is by far the easiest, even if it may seem more expensive, once you try to import it from another country you will see it is much less expensive and more likely to arrive alive when purchased inside your own country.

[siafu]

Sérgio,
Forgot to comment on your illama not producing any ...Have you tried to hand pollinate your illamas? and Isn't there a way to bring the humidity up in the greenhouse Perhaps, a humidifier

Hi,

I tried to hand pollinated but it did not work. Not much of a surprise. Hand pollination of A. reticulta and Rollinia mucosa only
has worked when there is enough humidity in the air.

It would be easy enough to increase humidity in the greenhouse if the water wasn't so hard. One summer I used fine sprinklers every
few minutes and it did the trick with my Rollinia. It set many fruits on its own. The problem is that every plant touched by the fine
mist turned white and the leaves dried and dropped after a while.

I still need to try using misters close to the soil. That might help some.

I am hoping the ilama (grafted onto cherimoya) will do better outside. The air outside is not as dry, especially at night.

[Mike T]

There is alot of talk about illamas splitting but it is unclear if all varieties have fruit that crack or most fruit on a tree do or even if it is partly due to environmental factor.Some varieties of sugar apples are prone to splitting especially if there is heavy rain when nearly mature.

[Cookie Monster]

yah, seems like they be cracking down on shizzle these days. I was pretty much shocked to find out that they hand searched everybody's checked-in luggage. This was a couple of weeks ago.

About 10+ years ago you didn't need a phyto for anything entering USA. Everything was inspected by USDA as it came in and if clean was cleared.
Those were the good ole days!

[fruitlovers]

yah, seems like they be cracking down on shizzle these days. I was pretty much shocked to find out that they hand searched everybody's checked-in luggage. This was a couple of weeks ago.

About 10+ years ago you didn't need a phyto for anything entering USA. Everything was inspected by USDA as it came in and if clean was cleared.
Those were the good ole days!

I was told by someone just returning from Europe to USA that after very long flight they had to all wait in line at customs for over 90 minutes. They fingerprinted everybody. Not just thumbprint but full both hands prints.

[Guanabanus]

After hand-pollinating ilamas, or any other kind of Annona with three-petaled flowers, it is easy to tie the flower shut, so that it looks again just as it did before opening.
the flower then provides and maintains its own humidity.  I have done that thousands of times with small grafting rubbers.

I  don't recall ever trying to close a Rollinia flower, but I imagine a piece of tape over the bottom hole would do the trick--- way easier than misting.