Author Topic: what is considered a fruiting size tree?  (Read 2626 times)

boxturtle

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what is considered a fruiting size tree?
« on: April 11, 2017, 12:53:20 AM »
grafted and airlayered trees always flowers and wants to bare fruit before they could actually sustain the energy to do it.  So for trees like mangos and lychees what is considered a good size tree to let it bare fruit? I hear some people go by trunk and canopy size others says two years in the ground....how about the size of the tree you start out with matter does that matter 3gallon 7 gallon 15gallon etc.   It be awesome if the guys with experience chime in for our favorites...like always thanks in advance

gnappi

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Re: what is considered a fruiting size tree?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2017, 02:12:48 AM »
I leave them be, and let them fruit or not as the tree decides. Years ago I had a 3' tall sugar apple that bore fruit heavily and many years later later I had to wait till my 10 footers bore fruit. Same with mango, I let them do what they will contrary to conventional wisdom.

I have time (unless my time is up sooner than later) so I stopped fussing about it.

When thinking about trees fruiting, and old saying (paraphrased) goes...

"The best time to plant a tree is 10 years ago... the next best time is today"



Regards,

   Gary

Mark in Texas

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Re: what is considered a fruiting size tree?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2017, 07:56:10 AM »
grafted and airlayered trees always flowers and wants to bare fruit before they could actually sustain the energy to do it.  So for trees like mangos and lychees what is considered a good size tree to let it bare fruit? I hear some people go by trunk and canopy size others says two years in the ground....how about the size of the tree you start out with matter does that matter 3gallon 7 gallon 15gallon etc.   It be awesome if the guys with experience chime in for our favorites...like always thanks in advance

I'll say it again, the adage "let it fruit after 2 years old" is worthless.  No 2 gardening situations are the same. It is the grower's call as to when to fruit.  Too early and you stunt the tree. I go by what I perceive is very good root mass as indicated by very good foliage mass which will support fruit.  I also go by trunk and scaffold branch girth and woodiness.  For avocados and to some extent mango you must have good trunk girth and it should be lignified, have woody bark.  Would think the same applies to lychee.

FWIW, I almost killed a row of Mouvedre grapes by letting them bear on second leaf even though I had a completed trunk and 2 cordons.  You CAN kill a tree/vine by overloading it......being impatient.

Happy gardening!

simon_grow

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Re: what is considered a fruiting size tree?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2017, 09:55:23 AM »
It depends on the tree and where it is grown. Here in SoCal, I would say a Mango tree should be about 5-7 feet tall and about 4-6 feet wide. Also, newly planted trees should not hold fruit for at least two years regardless of size so that it can establish itself.

You can let a much smaller tree hold fruit and it can still veg out and not die but you will be slowing down its growth. My personal goals is not to get 2-20 fruit. I want a large tree capable of producing 50+ fruit. Here is my friend Maggots tree that I'm helping her with. http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=21350.0

It had probably over 300 mangos. This picture is after much of the fruit was already harvested

Simkn

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Re: what is considered a fruiting size tree?
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2017, 12:29:51 PM »
Minimum 2 year preferably 3 years for mangos. Anonas you can start letting them hold fruits after the first year considering the size of the tree.

simon_grow

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Re: what is considered a fruiting size tree?
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2017, 12:52:12 PM »
For Lychee trees, they usually self regulate and even though they bloom, small trees rarely hold much fruit as their are multiple rounds of fruit drop. Emperor is one variety I've had that tries to hold fruit even when small. A Lychee tree about 4-5 feet tall and 4-5 feet wide should be able to hold some fruit without slowing growth much. This is the critical size for the canopy to protect itself from dessicating winds. At this size, the outer leaves provide protection to the inner canopy and most people in SoCal will notice their trees start to take off after reaching this size.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: what is considered a fruiting size tree?
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2017, 10:02:55 PM »
Here is a small Kaimana Lychee. It has blooms on it but will not likely set any fruit that will hold to full maturity. If a few fruit does set, it generally won't set the tree as far back as it would keeping a mango on a small tree growing here in SoCal.

Simon

Mark in Texas

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Re: what is considered a fruiting size tree?
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2017, 08:17:05 AM »
It depends on the tree and where it is grown. Here in SoCal, I would say a Mango tree should be about 5-7 feet tall and about 4-6 feet wide. Also, newly planted trees should not hold fruit for at least two years regardless of size so that it can establish itself.

You can let a much smaller tree hold fruit and it can still veg out and not die but you will be slowing down its growth. My personal goals is not to get 2-20 fruit. I want a large tree capable of producing 50+ fruit. Here is my friend Maggots tree that I'm helping her with. http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=21350.0

It had probably over 300 mangos. This picture is after much of the fruit was already harvested

Simkn

Amazing.  Also find your reply to Rob is spot on - " I've had as much variability with my Lemon Zest on various rootstocks so inconsistency with mangos are really the only thing that's consistent."

Consistency, YES!  This is the problem with many Texas growers, or growers in general....they set themselves up for failure. Sure it's nice to experiment but don't start off planting a Hass outdoors in zone 9 just because we haven't had a Arctic blast in a while, or try cherries when everyone has told you they split at maturity during rains.  Given a tree's reputation a smart grower will plant what works well for their area and is consistent.  One reason why I recommend talking to a local TX A&M field extension agent aka Agrilife rep and yes, we do have field staff that are experts in tropical fruits.

Regarding Lemon Zest consistency could it be that you outdoor growers don't have total control over its culture (rain, wind, temps) like I do in a greenhouse or is what you describe what LZ does?  I have a 3' tall Sweet Tart in a large bottomless pot that is loaded and most likely will let it hold a couple of fruits.   Speaking of control, winds can be devastating.   While recently away for a few nights we had southerly winds with gust to 47 mph according to my weather station.  It knocked off Reed avocados and burned young leaves on a Gwen and the Reed avocado tree which are planted near the vent.  I had left it cracked about a foot.


« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 08:27:45 AM by Mark in Texas »

boxturtle

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Re: what is considered a fruiting size tree?
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2017, 11:19:11 AM »
Here is a small Kaimana Lychee. It has blooms on it but will not likely set any fruit that will hold to full maturity. If a few fruit does set, it generally won't set the tree as far back as it would keeping a mango on a small tree growing here in SoCal.

Simon

I gifted my parents a solid 7 gallon Mauritius tree 3 years ago.  I didn't know better then but the tree had like 6 fruits on it.  It looked pretty and being a novice thought oh tree with fruit must be good :) My parents let the fruit ripen poor lil guy didn't grow for two years finally putting out decent amount of flush this year.   They put it in ground  6months after they got it.   So for lychee even a couple fruit will stunt it's growth for a couple years.   

shinzo

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Re: what is considered a fruiting size tree?
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2017, 02:16:01 AM »
I have been facing this dilemma of age / size lately with my apricot tree planted january 2016.
It was a 2.5 feet high bare stump back then



One year later, it is 8 feet high and bearing small fruits (it dropped half of the initial fruitlets).





I know that the general advice is to not let hold fruit the first 2 years, but it seemed to me that the tree has reached a good size in only one year (i may be wrong) so i'm letting it fruit.
In the other hand, the peach tree planted at the same moment (just behind it in the first and last pic) has barely increased in size, even if the trunk did get larger, i had to pull off the little fruitlets this spring.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 04:09:11 AM by shinzo »

Mark in Texas

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Re: what is considered a fruiting size tree?
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2017, 09:17:45 AM »



I know that the general advice is to not let hold fruit the first 2 years, but it seemed to me that the tree has reached a good size in only one year (i may be wrong) so i'm letting it fruit.
In the other hand, the peach tree planted at the same moment (just behind it in the first and last pic) has barely increased in size, even if the trunk did get larger, i had to pull off the little fruitlets this spring.

Like I said, don't follow the "general advice", it's your call.  You have a strong tree and IMO it's ready to hold some fruit.  Having said that I would train it like the commercial growers do, into a vase.  I'll post one of my peaches that I trained to about 5 prostate (lateral) scaffold branches starting about 2' above ground.  I prune my fruit trees down to around 6' H every spring for ease of harvest.  They are beasts, about 25' wide.  I hit them with plenty of N.



EDIT
- I posted the wrong photo but am going to leave it.  We had a warm winter.  This is a perfect example of what happens when you don't have enough chill hours. The peach in the foreground is barely budding out, looks almost dead, needs more chill hours than what we got to break dormancy.  The next tree is a smothered olive and the green one in the background is a peach that set fruit about a month ago and is now fully leafed out.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 09:24:05 AM by Mark in Texas »

Viking Guy

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Re: what is considered a fruiting size tree?
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2017, 10:45:58 AM »
Much of this depends entirely what you're aiming to do.

If you are attempting to container grow a fruit tree which normally gets very large in ground, it is a great idea to let it fruit early as possible--therefore stunting it's growth and allowing you to get fruits from a variety not normally grown in containers.

If you're growing in the ground and want to get a healthy size after a few years and a larger tree, then definitely do not let it fruit.  How you prune it, or not prune it, depends entirely on what you're growing.  A stone fruit needs some strong pruning care to promote its open canopy, but a citrus is closed canopy and unless space is an issue, you shouldn't prune anything but the Ds.

To set this example to a neighbor even on plants (who asked me earlier this year), I lined up a group peppers and tomatoes.

One control group of bell peppers was allowed to fruit as early as possible with natural form, and another control group of bell peppers (same variety germinated exact same time) had its flowers pinched and heads pruned to promote multi-branching until it was thick trunked, barky and over 30" high before being allowed to set flowers and then fruit.

Now, the early fruiters have an average of 3 fruit each.  Their fruit is nearly ripened and large, but the plant is very short--under 20" tall and clearly putting all of its energy into the few fruit.  They are averaging about 2 more flowers coming from the tops.  So they might end up with 5 fruit in the short term, and not produce for awhile afterward.

The flower pinched pruned ones are now reaching over 40 inches tall, and have strong trunks which handle the high winds here without staking, and have more than 30 fruits each with more than 20 new flowers incoming.  The harvest will be a couple of weeks later than the earlier setting plants, but more than 10x the harvest, with a much healthier, stronger and larger plant which holds its fruit even without staking.  The root systems have developed incredibly and the plants respond much better to feeding and show very few signs of pest problems (just leaf miners on some older, lower leaves).  Moreso, because the fruits are all in various stages with many more to come, there will be an ongoing staggered season of Bell Peppers from this group with fruits ripening at various intervals.

I can provide photos if interested.

The tomatoes did exactly the same thing, and even moreso, the early tomatoes are acting like determinate rather than indeterminate.  The carefully pruned and flower pinched tomatoes are like miniature trees with trunk bases more than 2 thumbs thick and only 4 feet tall, and now super loaded with flowers and fruit.

Think of trees as a much longer term of these pepper examples.  What is the future goal of your trees?  You want fruit right now, so you can taste it and decide whether or not to invest moreso into that variety, or do you already know what you want and gear up for a bountiful harvest in a few years?

Maybe you only want a few fat fruit each and every year, with a tiny, stunted tree.  In that case, you know what to do.

I personally never let my fruit trees fruit their first year in ground or in a container--period.  Containers, I let them fruit 2nd year, and in ground 2nd or 3rd depending on type of fruit and then cultivar.  Even then, I may wait longer if there are signs of stress the tree is enduring whether natural or environmental.

It is up to you to do what is best for your trees and for you, and to find that happy median which comes with experience, wisdom and patience along with much trial and error within your growing zone and climate.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 11:09:24 AM by Viking Guy »

simon_grow

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Re: what is considered a fruiting size tree?
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2017, 10:54:37 AM »
Yes, every situation is different and it especially depends on what you are growing and wether it's growing in a zone that is appropriate for it or not. I've let Stone Fruits hold fruit early in their life and they did fine but when you're growing fruit trees that are marginal in your climate, that's an entirely different story. I still recommend not letting young trees hold fruit, even stone fruits. Just because a plant can do something doesn't mean it's the best thing for it.

Simon

Mark in Texas

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Re: what is considered a fruiting size tree?
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2017, 02:37:16 PM »
Great points Adam.  Will pinch off a few flowers on my maters and see what happens.

I advise folks to leave their trees "trashy" for a few years too.  No pruning and that includes the malarky of cutting back the top 1/3 when planting to compensate for root loss.

By letting your  tree hold more foliage, meaning producing more carbos via photosynthesis, they will develop better with thicker trunks.  When they become vigorous is the time to cut off the lower branches so you can mow under them and make them look purty.   ;)

 

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