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Author Topic: Too late to use this for grafting?  (Read 1497 times)

561MangoFanatic

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Too late to use this for grafting?
« on: April 26, 2017, 09:10:27 AM »
So I have yet to graft my first tree & have been doing research and was also told to use bud wood that has not started pushing out new growth. Will u tell me if it's possible or to late to use this top piece since a new flush has already started pushing out?

Serg

simon_grow

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2017, 06:37:09 PM »
I've had success with scions like that but I prefer to prep the scion some more by clipping off all the leaves and leaving it for a week or two but prior to any more pushing from the apical bud. If your hoping for just the apical bud to push, prep the scion by removing leaves and waiting about a couple days so that the leaf petioles can heal and dry up a bit.

Simon

mike rule

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2017, 07:21:45 PM »
Like Simon I too have had success with scions at this stage....Follow his advice.... Mike

ScottR

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2017, 07:51:51 PM »
Simon, don't you like little nipple of new growth buds popping in whorl?

simon_grow

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2017, 12:33:05 AM »
Sometimes there is only one growth point at the tip, usually on the smaller, thinner branches. By prepping the scion and waiting to see what swells, you can harvest the scion at the best state for that particular branch. If you see multiple buds, you can wait for them to swell a bit. If it looks like it's a single terminal growth point that looks like it's about to push, take the scion immediately. I don't like my scions with overly swollen buds.

Simon

Cookie Monster

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2017, 10:15:14 AM »
That will work fine.
Jeff  :-)

ScottR

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2017, 10:40:40 AM »
Good explanation Simon, thanks for reply!

561MangoFanatic

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2017, 01:45:29 PM »
Thank You everyone for the help!! Also I want to make sure I'm correctly wrapping the budwood by wrapping the apical bud in parafilm too?
Serg

simon_grow

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2017, 02:53:42 PM »
Yes, wrap the apical bud as well but try not to overwrap as it can make it difficult for new growth to push through. I usually wrap my scions with just 1-2 layers of parafilm or buddytape.

Simon

561MangoFanatic

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2017, 11:51:19 PM »
Thank You Simon, Jeff, Scott, & Mike for your help!!! Will be taking a graft of this fruit punch very soon! But I tried my first attempt at grafting 2 Cac, 2 NDM, & 2 Coconut Cream scions today, so hopefully they take. 2 Veneer grafts & 4 clefts.. can only wait & see now
Serg

simon_grow

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2017, 01:18:58 AM »
If your rootstock is strong and vigorous, preferably beginning a new vegetative growth and you prepped your scions by removing leaves and letting the scars heal your grafts have a good chance of taking. Of course it also depends on your grafting abilities as well but you seem eager to learn and your asking questions on the forum to better your chances. Please keep us updated on the progress of your grafts.

When I get failed grafts, I like to unwrap them to see what possibly went wrong. Sometimes I just make sloppy cuts and the cambium didn't heal over. Other times there is some callus tissue forming but the graft just didn't take for some reason, I usually attribute these failures to weak rootstocks.

Simon

561MangoFanatic

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2017, 01:50:41 PM »
If your rootstock is strong and vigorous, preferably beginning a new vegetative growth and you prepped your scions by removing leaves and letting the scars heal your grafts have a good chance of taking. Of course it also depends on your grafting abilities as well but you seem eager to learn and your asking questions on the forum to better your chances. Please keep us updated on the progress of your grafts.

When I get failed grafts, I like to unwrap them to see what possibly went wrong. Sometimes I just make sloppy cuts and the cambium didn't heal over. Other times there is some callus tissue forming but the graft just didn't take for some reason, I usually attribute these failures to weak rootstocks.

Simon

Great info thank you! Been watching as many videos on grafting as I can find & cant find much info on wrapping or keeping the budwood, how long they can be wrapped, etc.. but here is my Carrie tree that I topworked the Coconut Cream onto. (I think it should be called bottomworked when you graft onto anything from the last branch of the canopy & lower lol)





Serg

Eirlis

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2017, 06:17:26 PM »

...you prepped your scions by removing leaves and letting the scars heal...

Do you prep the scion before cutting it off the tree or after? I assume before, but just want to make sure?

mike rule

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2017, 06:34:35 PM »
Eirlis...... Prep. before you cut the scion wood from the mother tree....... Mike

simon_grow

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2017, 06:47:47 PM »
I prep the scions while they are still attached to the tree. Prepping the scions significantly increased my takes. Whenever you make any cuts on a scion, some sap will ooze out, drying it out a bit but not much. By removing leaves before you cut the scion off, the rootstock is able to refill the lost fluid but more importantly, when you remove the leaves from the attached scion, you remove the chemical signals from the leaves that inhibits new flushes. By removing the leaves, the tree sends signals to the now defoliated scion starting the cascades of signaling reactions that initiates bud growth and ultimately a new flush.

Scionwood should really be used as soon as possible I've had success with scionwood that is up to two weeks old. They may last longer but it's not worth the risk to me. When wrapping scions, one or two layers is enough. If your rootstock is weak or the scion was small, it may have difficulty pushing through multiple layers.

Another trick I do is to spray my scions with copper fungicide soap spray if you live in an area with heavy bioburden. If you're growing tomatoes or strawberries or your climate is very wet, it may help. I use it when I graft in the fall or winter but find it's not really necessary unless the weather is cold or scions came from Somewhere humid. Sometimes scions from Florida or Hawaii can have some Anthracnose or sooty mold in which case I would definitely spray and then wrap.

For very important grafts, I remove or cut back nearby branches which removes the apical dominance and stimulates new growth that can help push your newly grafted scion. Always wrap your scion before grafting onto the rootstock so that you don't dislodge the scion as you graft.

Simon

Eirlis

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2017, 07:06:18 PM »
Great info, thank you so much!

561MangoFanatic

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2017, 06:02:49 PM »













 Here's an some pictures of the grafts from last week. It rained & water got in the parafilm so hopefully they still take!! Parafilm seems to still be holding strong so far.
Serg

561MangoFanatic

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2017, 06:59:11 PM »
And here's the fruit punch mango tree & I grafted it back onto the original rootstock. Had to used rubberbands to make a better connection between the scion & rootstock. & you can see where they originally grafted onto the rootstock & forgot to take off their tie. So my plan was to regraft back & take the other possible scion after the 1st graft takes. (As suggested by Har)










« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 12:00:20 AM by 561MangoFanatic »
Serg

simon_grow

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2017, 08:20:18 PM »
Wow, you did quite a bit of grafting. One thing I see is that you could have perhaps stretched the parafilm a bit more as you are wrapping the scion. It's not a big issue but keeping the wrap tight will help to hold in the moisture better. It is so rewarding to graft and to see the scions push. Let us know when you start to see some of them busting out of the tape.

Simon

561MangoFanatic

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2017, 09:13:55 PM »
Wow, you did quite a bit of grafting. One thing I see is that you could have perhaps stretched the parafilm a bit more as you are wrapping the scion. It's not a big issue but keeping the wrap tight will help to hold in the moisture better. It is so rewarding to graft and to see the scions push. Let us know when you start to see some of them busting out of the tape.

Simon

You're right, I didn't know as it was my 1st time & I didn't want to break the parafilm but now I know for next time!! I will keep updating as soon as there is anything to update. Also I wanted to thank the forum member who provided me the 6 budwood scions!! It really is greatly appreciated!!!(You know who you are!)
Serg

sobars_machado

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2017, 12:37:21 PM »
If your rootstock is strong and vigorous, preferably beginning a new vegetative growth and you prepped your scions by removing leaves and letting the scars heal your grafts have a good chance of taking. Of course it also depends on your grafting abilities as well but you seem eager to learn and your asking questions on the forum to better your chances. Please keep us updated on the progress of your grafts.

When I get failed grafts, I like to unwrap them to see what possibly went wrong. Sometimes I just make sloppy cuts and the cambium didn't heal over. Other times there is some callus tissue forming but the graft just didn't take for some reason, I usually attribute these failures to weak rootstocks.

Simon

I prep the scions while they are still attached to the tree. Prepping the scions significantly increased my takes. Whenever you make any cuts on a scion, some sap will ooze out, drying it out a bit but not much. By removing leaves before you cut the scion off, the rootstock is able to refill the lost fluid but more importantly, when you remove the leaves from the attached scion, you remove the chemical signals from the leaves that inhibits new flushes. By removing the leaves, the tree sends signals to the now defoliated scion starting the cascades of signaling reactions that initiates bud growth and ultimately a new flush.


Simon,
How about prepping the rootstock as well, at the same time when we will prep the scion? May be that signaling effect will start here as well to initiate new growth and there will be increase of fluid flow that will speed up the healing process?

00christian00

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2017, 12:50:08 PM »
If your rootstock is strong and vigorous, preferably beginning a new vegetative growth and you prepped your scions by removing leaves and letting the scars heal your grafts have a good chance of taking. Of course it also depends on your grafting abilities as well but you seem eager to learn and your asking questions on the forum to better your chances. Please keep us updated on the progress of your grafts.

When I get failed grafts, I like to unwrap them to see what possibly went wrong. Sometimes I just make sloppy cuts and the cambium didn't heal over. Other times there is some callus tissue forming but the graft just didn't take for some reason, I usually attribute these failures to weak rootstocks.

Simon

I prep the scions while they are still attached to the tree. Prepping the scions significantly increased my takes. Whenever you make any cuts on a scion, some sap will ooze out, drying it out a bit but not much. By removing leaves before you cut the scion off, the rootstock is able to refill the lost fluid but more importantly, when you remove the leaves from the attached scion, you remove the chemical signals from the leaves that inhibits new flushes. By removing the leaves, the tree sends signals to the now defoliated scion starting the cascades of signaling reactions that initiates bud growth and ultimately a new flush.


Simon,
How about prepping the rootstock as well, at the same time when we will prep the scion? May be that signaling effect will start here as well to initiate new growth and there will be increase of fluid flow that will speed up the healing process?

What do you mean by letting the scars heal? Do you remove the leaves and wait some days before cutting the scion?
If yes how long?

simon_grow

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2017, 01:51:35 PM »
When I cut off the leaves, I leave a little bit of the leaf petiole and it usually oozes out some sap. Wait at least a few days for the sap to dry. I usually try to wipe off as much as possible before I remove the scion.

How long I wait depends on how far along the apical bud or side buds are pushing. Typically I wait about two weeks after prepping the scions before removal but it depends on eacg individual case.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2017, 11:17:15 PM »
If your rootstock is strong and vigorous, preferably beginning a new vegetative growth and you prepped your scions by removing leaves and letting the scars heal your grafts have a good chance of taking. Of course it also depends on your grafting abilities as well but you seem eager to learn and your asking questions on the forum to better your chances. Please keep us updated on the progress of your grafts.

When I get failed grafts, I like to unwrap them to see what possibly went wrong. Sometimes I just make sloppy cuts and the cambium didn't heal over. Other times there is some callus tissue forming but the graft just didn't take for some reason, I usually attribute these failures to weak rootstocks.

Simon

I prep the scions while they are still attached to the tree. Prepping the scions significantly increased my takes. Whenever you make any cuts on a scion, some sap will ooze out, drying it out a bit but not much. By removing leaves before you cut the scion off, the rootstock is able to refill the lost fluid but more importantly, when you remove the leaves from the attached scion, you remove the chemical signals from the leaves that inhibits new flushes. By removing the leaves, the tree sends signals to the now defoliated scion starting the cascades of signaling reactions that initiates bud growth and ultimately a new flush.


Simon,
How about prepping the rootstock as well, at the same time when we will prep the scion? May be that signaling effect will start here as well to initiate new growth and there will be increase of fluid flow that will speed up the healing process?

Sometimes I will prep my rootstocks by giving fertilizer prior to grafting. I also prep rootstocks by removing nearby branches to divert more energy to my targeted Grafted branch. If I don't want to cut any branches, I've been known to tie or weigh down nearby higher branches so that my Grafted branch is highest branch and will get the apical dominance.

Simon

Mark in Texas

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Re: Too late to use this for grafting?
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2017, 08:52:23 AM »
Sometimes I just make sloppy cuts and the cambium didn't heal over.
Simon

Everything you pointed out is spot on, lots of factors at play here and another one is getting the cleanest cambium tissue cuts you can.   For that I choose a Schick Injector blade held in an Xacto knife or #2 medium Excel knife.  I easily cut thru some pretty tough bark on 1 1/4" stock yesterday.  I rarely use my Felco single sided grafting knife any more and only to pry the flaps back in prep for scion insertion.

I also sterilize all tools with rubbing alcohol.

Mark

 

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