Author Topic: Expert opinions on zone 9b, desert climate  (Read 4297 times)

AndrewAZ

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Expert opinions on zone 9b, desert climate
« on: August 02, 2017, 01:22:41 AM »
I live in Scottsdale, AZ.  I have a fair amount of tropicals, such tropicals.  But, really trying to get a definitive graspecial on what tropical/subtropical trees/shrubs wI'll grow out here long term.
It is obvious that citrus are no brainers, along with pomegranate.
But, I would really is get all of your expert opinions on what to grow out here.
Of course, it is rarely easy enough for things to be a yes it will, no it won't.   So I would like to categorize fruit plants as following.
1. Plant in ground, will grow well.
2. Plant in ground, will need protection from afternoon sun.
3. Plant in ground, but, needs to be planted in a warm microclimate or covered in a frost cloth.
4. Potted plant only, needs to be brought inside for winter.
5. Don't grow.  Cannot survive longterm in pot and cannot take 9b winter conditions.

Thoughts on my list?  Anything add, subtract, combine?
Really asking anyone on here to contribute.  Even breaking down varieties that might do better.
If you read online, very hard to get truth vs sale pitch.  Also, fair amount of people out here making claims they cannot support for sales.  Would be nice to have a reference for people looking to buy and grow out here, and have the confidence they are not waiting their money.

Mugenia

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Re: Expert opinions on zone 9b, desert climate
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2017, 08:55:28 AM »
How about Jack Mace? He grows all of tropical fruit trees in Phoenix. I agree with a lot of what he says except his plant mineral sauce. Seriously, there's no other organic fertilizer that can beat chicken poop manure. Me and my folks' soil is prepared with a lot of compost, wood chips, and chicken poop. We always have bountiful harvest of fruits and vegetables.


https://www.youtube.com/user/VeganAthlete

AndrewAZ

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Re: Expert opinions on zone 9b, desert climate
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2017, 10:55:20 AM »
Actually, he is a reason I want to do this because I don't trust him.  30% of Phoenix gardening community are completely head over heals in love with him, the other 70% consider him an obnoxious jack ass.  Not much middle ground with him.
He lost me immediately when he said that rootstock is completely irrelevant.

bsbullie

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Re: Expert opinions on zone 9b, desert climate
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2017, 11:06:49 AM »
Ah yes, isnt he the one who bragged about planting the Antonio mango ghat would survive the cold.. and promptly was fried in the first winter?
- Rob

AndrewAZ

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Re: Expert opinions on zone 9b, desert climate
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2017, 10:00:14 PM »
Yeah, he makes a lot of sh#$ up.  In many ways, he has no idea what he is talking about.  Kind of scary he is thought of as an authority on the subject.

Mugenia

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Re: Expert opinions on zone 9b, desert climate
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2017, 09:09:46 AM »
How about these folks? Prior to moving to California, I was studying and researching the Phoenix area and its tropical fruit tree scene. I stumbled into Phoenix Tropicals' website.  These guys look good. Looks like Phoenix is limited in term of what you can grow.

http://www.phoenixtropicals.com

raimeiken

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Re: Expert opinions on zone 9b, desert climate
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2017, 11:43:26 AM »
Actually, he is a reason I want to do this because I don't trust him.  30% of Phoenix gardening community are completely head over heals in love with him, the other 70% consider him an obnoxious jack ass.  Not much middle ground with him.
He lost me immediately when he said that rootstock is completely irrelevant.

THIS!

the internet loves him, and I don't understand why. He's clearly in this for money alone (youtube views, subscriptions). I thought I was alone on not liking him, but after meeting many fellow gardeners locally, they all say the same thing as you've said. And not just him, his other close business partners also. I've also met a few new gardeners that have gone to his "tour" that he asks "donations" for, and have said to me that they learn nothing about gardening. All they heard was about himself and how great he is, and then on about all the products he sells. The guy is so full of himself.

WaterFowler

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Re: Expert opinions on zone 9b, desert climate
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2017, 01:34:12 PM »
Actually, he is a reason I want to do this because I don't trust him.  30% of Phoenix gardening community are completely head over heals in love with him, the other 70% consider him an obnoxious jack ass.  Not much middle ground with him.
He lost me immediately when he said that rootstock is completely irrelevant.

THIS!

the internet loves him, and I don't understand why. He's clearly in this for money alone (youtube views, subscriptions)

I don't know about that. His Tai Chi videos get millions of hits compared to just a few thousand hits for his gardening videos so if it was just the money alone, it would make more sense if he just focused on that. I'm pretty sure he enjoys gardening and I enjoy watching his videos because his climate is so similar to ours. He was one of the first guys to have a series of videos on tropical trees so I thank him for that.

It did raise my eyebrows a little when he was basically asking for someone to give him a property near Phoenix for cheap(or possibly free?). According to him wealthy individuals offered to give him properties at least 10 different times but he was too busy to accept them at that time, but now he's ready. Or maybe it was just his body language, which seemed very desperate and pleading, which grabbed my attention.

Whatever his motives are, he did a service to those in climates like mine who wanted to grow tropicals. There are a lot more videos for desert climate growers now but there wasn't a few years ago.

raimeiken

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Re: Expert opinions on zone 9b, desert climate
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2017, 02:50:44 PM »
he isn't very well respected in the tai chi/kung fu community either. Just check a quick search on google, and you'll find various forums and blogs about people in that hobby not liking him. Lots of people think he's a fraud. Im sure he enjoys gardening, but making money Im pretty sure is his number one motive. He posts a lot and "likes" his own posts (I mean really?), shares his own posts on various facebook groups, telling people to watch and subscribe, asking for donations when he does garden tours, etc.. It's quite off putting, especially for gardeners like myself that's very passionate in this hobby and just like to help/share knowledge with fellow gardeners without trying to make money off of them.

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=724&q=tai+chi+jake+mace+forum

figtreeaz

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Re: Expert opinions on zone 9b, desert climate
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2017, 04:57:49 PM »
I live in Scottsdale, AZ.  I have a fair amount of tropicals, such tropicals.  But, really trying to get a definitive graspecial on what tropical/subtropical trees/shrubs wI'll grow out here long term.
It is obvious that citrus are no brainers, along with pomegranate.
But, I would really is get all of your expert opinions on what to grow out here.
Of course, it is rarely easy enough for things to be a yes it will, no it won't.   So I would like to categorize fruit plants as following.
1. Plant in ground, will grow well.
2. Plant in ground, will need protection from afternoon sun.
3. Plant in ground, but, needs to be planted in a warm microclimate or covered in a frost cloth.
4. Potted plant only, needs to be brought inside for winter.
5. Don't grow.  Cannot survive longterm in pot and cannot take 9b winter conditions.

Thoughts on my list?  Anything add, subtract, combine?
Really asking anyone on here to contribute.  Even breaking down varieties that might do better.
If you read online, very hard to get truth vs sale pitch.  Also, fair amount of people out here making claims they cannot support for sales.  Would be nice to have a reference for people looking to buy and grow out here, and have the confidence they are not waiting their money.

Hi,

I am in the same are as you. I have only been into the more tropical plants since about two years ago, but i'll share what I have gathered so far.

Guavas for me are almost bullet-proof. All mine are in full sun and grow like crazy as long as they have well draining soil and water. I have 4 different varieties and all are loaded with fruit. The only bummer is they defoliate under frosty conditions, but they bounce-back around may-jun.

Passiflora edulis is in the same boat as guavas, they love sun, heat, water, and something  to climb on. They seem slightly more frost tolerant than guava.

I have been having trouble with mangos here, I believe it is due to a combo of pests and some disease issues. All the mangos I plant do well for about 6-8 months then suddenly and quickly desiccate and die. The death starts as a black necrosis that quickly kills the tree. I think whatever this is kills the tree because of our crappy alkaline soil which causes nutrient deficiencies.  IDK though, I have some other mangos planted in mounds under shade that seem to be doing well, we will see. Im currently growing some seedlings as well, hoping for especially vigorous trees.

I have two avocados that are doing well, they need lots of shade here (all the time) and humidity. Mine are planted in the canopy of a massive naval orange tree.

Annona reticulata for me is pretty tough, it seems ok to about 110. Then it needs shade/ wind protection.

Annona squammosa is the same, except it seems less heat tolerant.

Green sapote. This one is doing way better than I thought, it is in full shade and survived a 123 degree day with no problem.

Im going to be expanding my garden this fall, I hope to address the soil pH issues with a boat load of sulfur and leonardite.

One more thing. I have a bunch of potted tropicals. I always thought a good moisture retaining soil would be ideal for hot AZ, but boy have I been wrong. Pretty much any store bought potting soil causes root rot in my potted plants. The surface dries up super quickly, but the bottom of the pot stays muggy and damp leading to rot. I recommend making your own potting soil with 50% course sand ( ideally basalt) 25% peat or coir, and 25% of something chunky like bark. Just make sure you feed often because this mix has basically no nutrients. But the massive amount of sand means you can literally water every day without overwatering.

This has been my experience so far, but like I said I have only been doing it for about two years. I think most of the tropical fruit growing is newer to AZ, which is kind of cool.


greenman62

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Re: Expert opinions on zone 9b, desert climate
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2017, 02:07:50 PM »
I am in New Orleans
This January, we had 1 night that was the coldest ive seen in about 10yrs.
it hit 27F... AND it had rained for days prior.

the rain had soaked everything in pots
and the pots froze killing the roots.

i lost 7 mango (1 to 3yrs) in pots. 1 survived.
3 in ground survived, even a small seedling.
but, had to come back from the roots.

same with several other. came back from the roots
or, low on the trunk.
Jackfruit, black sapote, Jamun/Java plum, cherimoya

lost Neem (3g container)
lost Abiu.
White sapote almost uneffected.
starfruit, lost leaves
Jujube, uneffected
Mamey 10gal lost

sometimes we go a couple  of years with no frost
sometimes we get a night or 2 down to 30F and it warms early in the AM
( in Those i havent really lost anything significant)

every few years we get 1 night of a hard freeze
it really depends on how long those temps last, and if it warms quickly in the AM or not
Most of my plant selection now, revolves around that one day.

DesertDreamer

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Re: Expert opinions on zone 9b, desert climate
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2017, 01:32:50 AM »
I have been gardening in Phoenix for ten years.  Five of them growing mangos.  Your observations about '6 months ok, then necrosis' is spot on.  Happens even in pots.  Alkaline water and wind borne spores, along with over 110 temps seems to do most of them in.  Some varieties adapt well (lemon zest, kesar, fruit punch). Others do not (I've killed 4 coco cream).  Shade is key, and just the right amount of drainage makes a huge difference.  Ideally, start in shade, grow into sun...and do whatever you can to get them thru that first summer.   I think we get a temp induced 'dormancy' that stresses the trees and only vigorously growing plants make it thru that first summer.  I am also starting to wonder if there isn't a fungal or bacterial infection in many fl grown trees that doesnt affect trees until our summer temps hit....I now hit all newly purchased trees with copper for a month or so after I acquire them.  Saved a fruit punch that was going that direction with this approach.
On Jake and others associated with him..say what you want, but he has gotten more good info out there than bad, and he has popularized the hobby here in AZ.  Always consider the experience of anyone giving advice.  Although the self love can be off putting, there is a ton of good info there, and there is clearly no intent to deceive...maybe a little more confidence in opinions and observations than is warranted, but an honest effort to educate.  Additionally, the clique that disses he and his associated crew seem aligned with another vendor of trees in town.  Bottom line, there are VERY few people around with much experience growing tropicals under AZ conditions.  There's lots of blowhards and kids with two mangos in pots for a year who will claim they know what they are doing, but the newness of the hobby in this area really demands critical thinking skills, lots of reading, and a skeptical outlook. 
Use good soil.  Water appropriately.  Fertilize modestly.  Use mulch.  Provide shade when plants are young.  Keep trying and experimenting.  Those are the fundamentals.
All views expressed are from my personal experience, in my particular conditions.  Your mileage may vary.

DesertDreamer

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Re: Expert opinions on zone 9b, desert climate
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2017, 01:55:34 AM »
1.  Easy in ground: pomegranate, fig, apricot, peach.  Morninga and neem thrive, though neem needs winter protection for the first winter or two.  Barbados cherry is pretty bulletproof as is mulberry.  Citrus, of course.  Poincianas can do well in a warm spot, though they take a beating in winter.
2. ALL trees need some protection from western sun for first year.
3. Microclimate needed: mango, starfruit, annonas, sapotes, jabos, avocado, banana...this varies depending on size at planting and your conditions.  Most of these can eventually grow into full eastern exposure sun, and some into a western exposure, but need that microclimate for the first year or so.  Some grow banana in full sun, but it always does better for me with some microclimate/humidity/shade.
4. Pots only...don't have a lot of experience here, because I don't bother with plants that would need this, but I think jackfruit and the ultra tropicals fit this category.  I grow some plumeria in pots until they have enough size to put in ground where they are always happier....and overwinter in a dry, sheltered area without too much protection needed.

Sorry if I messed up the order of your questions, but that should give you something to think about.
All views expressed are from my personal experience, in my particular conditions.  Your mileage may vary.

figtreeaz

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Re: Expert opinions on zone 9b, desert climate
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2017, 07:06:50 PM »
I have been gardening in Phoenix for ten years.  Five of them growing mangos.  Your observations about '6 months ok, then necrosis' is spot on.  Happens even in pots.  Alkaline water and wind borne spores, along with over 110 temps seems to do most of them in.  Some varieties adapt well (lemon zest, kesar, fruit punch). Others do not (I've killed 4 coco cream).  Shade is key, and just the right amount of drainage makes a huge difference.  Ideally, start in shade, grow into sun...and do whatever you can to get them thru that first summer.   I think we get a temp induced 'dormancy' that stresses the trees and only vigorously growing plants make it thru that first summer.  I am also starting to wonder if there isn't a fungal or bacterial infection in many fl grown trees that doesnt affect trees until our summer temps hit....I now hit all newly purchased trees with copper for a month or so after I acquire them.  Saved a fruit punch that was going that direction with this approach.
On Jake and others associated with him..say what you want, but he has gotten more good info out there than bad, and he has popularized the hobby here in AZ.  Always consider the experience of anyone giving advice.  Although the self love can be off putting, there is a ton of good info there, and there is clearly no intent to deceive...maybe a little more confidence in opinions and observations than is warranted, but an honest effort to educate.  Additionally, the clique that disses he and his associated crew seem aligned with another vendor of trees in town.  Bottom line, there are VERY few people around with much experience growing tropicals under AZ conditions.  There's lots of blowhards and kids with two mangos in pots for a year who will claim they know what they are doing, but the newness of the hobby in this area really demands critical thinking skills, lots of reading, and a skeptical outlook. 
Use good soil.  Water appropriately.  Fertilize modestly.  Use mulch.  Provide shade when plants are young.  Keep trying and experimenting.  Those are the fundamentals.

I think you are on to something with the disease problem. I have head healthy mangos pushing new growth wither and die in less than three days. My suspicion is it is likely a combination of factors. I speculate that diseases that are not super virulent in an ideal climate, say south florida. However, when the tree is put in the brutal AZ sun with super alkaline soil and water, then the combination of these factors may allow for normally non-fatal diseases to destroy the tree. What is weird though, is there are apparently some people in the valley with thriving mango trees. One thing I have noticed is leaf hoppers love my mangos, and they are a known disease vector. I wonder if in other parts of the valley they don't have as many as I do.

I will keep trying, eventually one will work.I'll kill a dozen more mangos if I have to!

DesertDreamer

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Re: Expert opinions on zone 9b, desert climate
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2017, 09:12:58 PM »
Yeah, not sure if plants are coming in with something that is a benign infection in more moderate temps, or something that starts here in AZ...and certainly no incrimination of vendors implied.  But, I have seen symptoms that are too consistent to ignore or write off as bad care.  One possibility is certain soil conditions have better micro org. Communities and help ward off issues....cooler microclimates obviously help.  I also think certain varieties are less well adapted....so get the right combination and you can do well.  In marginal climates like ours, tropical fruit growing has an element of chance to it, so you just keep trying new things until you hit the right combination of factors.
All views expressed are from my personal experience, in my particular conditions.  Your mileage may vary.

figtreeaz

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Re: Expert opinions on zone 9b, desert climate
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2017, 04:41:20 PM »
Yeah, not sure if plants are coming in with something that is a benign infection in more moderate temps, or something that starts here in AZ...and certainly no incrimination of vendors implied.  But, I have seen symptoms that are too consistent to ignore or write off as bad care.  One possibility is certain soil conditions have better micro org. Communities and help ward off issues....cooler microclimates obviously help.  I also think certain varieties are less well adapted....so get the right combination and you can do well.  In marginal climates like ours, tropical fruit growing has an element of chance to it, so you just keep trying new things until you hit the right combination of factors.

I agree, its too common and consistent just to be poor care. I also don't blame the vendors, because this is an otherwise unknown issue. Im curious about which varieties do better here. Apparently Lemon Zest seems to do pretty well here.

Here is my list:
Kesar- seems OK
Valencia Pride: seems OK
Iman Passand- Alive but I think its gunna die
Coconut Cream- Actively pushing new growth, don't know about long term
Carie: toast
Alphonso: suffered a painful death
Pim Seng Mun: In mango heaven
Spirit of 76: died before I could even plant it
Saigon seedling: OK
Bunch of NDM and VP seedling: Vigorous and Happy (for now...)

One day, one day.

I really think the leaf hoppers are a culprit here, they are ones responsible for all the diseases in the oleanders, little bastards.

EDIT: So as to not completely hi-jack this thread, I will ad something more. White sapote seems pretty easy here. Mine lost some foliage in direct sun when it was 123, but the one in the shade of an Acacia was absolutely fine. Everything but the new leaves seem to be frost resistant. Also my surinam cherry is really easy, I literally don't do anything for it and it is still alive.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 04:51:31 PM by figtreeaz »

DesertDreamer

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Re: Expert opinions on zone 9b, desert climate
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2017, 12:06:19 AM »
Figtreeaz, any experience with loquat?  I have lost 3, but finally got one thru summer...heavy shade seems to have helped.  Your experience?
All views expressed are from my personal experience, in my particular conditions.  Your mileage may vary.

figtreeaz

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Re: Expert opinions on zone 9b, desert climate
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2017, 04:25:50 PM »
I have never tried growing loquat. However, all the loquat trees I have seen in the valley are in the older parts of phx with good established microclimates. I have never seen one in xeriscaped parts of the valley, only ones with nice lawns and big trees etc.


AndrewAZ

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Re: Expert opinions on zone 9b, desert climate
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2017, 11:54:45 PM »
Desert dreamer, I can answer that one. 
They need to be planted in early fall to get their roots established.  Also, should be planted in shade and allowed to grow towards.  It does need regular water.
I have seen too many people in AZ say to plant it at anytime.  That is really bad advice.