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Author Topic: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project  (Read 1241 times)

CA Hockey

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Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« on: September 13, 2017, 10:58:58 PM »
After 7 years of collecting trees and growing them in pots and boxes, it's time to put these plants in the ground. I am working with a landscape architect for the design but wanted to solicit advice from the group at large. I have to work in roughly 170 trees/plants. Some will probably have to be axed. East is towards the top of the plan. I don't like where the cherimoyas are positioned and want to move them between the curved firepit and the sports court. Thanks in advance for your collective wisdom and advice :-)

Avocado - 21
Citrus - 34
Stone Fruit - 15
Apples/Pears - 3
Mango - 22
Mulberry - 3
Blueberry - 5
Cherimoya – 4
Persimmon – 5
Sapote – 5
Guava – 2
Fig – 8
Miracle Fruit – 2
Cinnamon – 1
Elder Berry – 1
Olive – 3
Dragon Fruit – 3-5
Grapes – 7
Pomegranate - 5

Would like some trellises for grapes and other vine plants (ie, passionfruit)
Would like a simple structure for the dragon fruit

Cinnamon and miracle fruit need shade with indirect light

-K




boxturtle

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2017, 02:10:58 AM »
size of lot and tree spacing also include variety name so people can give you insight on growth habits would help people chime in

CA Hockey

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2017, 03:16:41 AM »
That would be a good idea!

the lot size is 1 acre. I will have to update the post with the different cultivars as I'm running off fumes now.

Mugenia

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2017, 04:44:25 AM »
Nice! One acre is pretty big for Southern California. I have a big lot too. I am not sure, but my brother who is a California-resident expert told me not to plant mangoes and avocadoes near walls, structures, or cement areas.

FrankDrebinOfFruits

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2017, 10:46:54 AM »
Are you doing anything to prevent the leaves from blowing into the pool?

boxturtle

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2017, 11:04:45 AM »
where is it going to be? any adjacent lot available so I can be your neighbor :)

spaugh

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2017, 11:42:15 AM »
Whats the water situation there?  Looks like its going to be a thirsty yard. 
Brad Spaugh

fyliu

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2017, 03:42:54 PM »
The grapes could possibly be against the west wall of the house, or beside the figs in the east property line. Passionfruit could be there as well, but I personally don't like passionfruit against the house. They are evergreen, and I like to clean out the growth that's next to the house if anything's growing close to a wall. Grapes will go dormant so I can clean them out in the winter.

CA Hockey

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2017, 03:22:00 AM »
Thanks for your replies. I actually didn't think about the leaf situation and the pool.

I live in Orange, and there are plenty of large lots in this area. Apparently I was 5 years late on getting in on a massive house sitting on 2.5 flat acres, but our property suits us just fine :)

As for water, I pay less now (about 40$) with Irvine ranch water than I did when I lived in Yorba Linda a few years back with fewer trees, smaller trees, and a 300-400$ water bill. We have 9 people living in the house, so the water isn't just for plants. I have had at least one person recommend registering the land as a farm or some such to get a better water rate, but I haven't looked into that too much.

The main thing I don't like about the plan is that some of the trees are tucked against the western wall which is plenty shaded in the afternoon. My neighbors have tall 30+ foot tall trees lining their properties. I hope to keep my trees to about 15 feet, but most of my trees that are already on the western side are shaded in the afternoon. The current plan is to have avocados on that side but I think they will need for sun.

There is a courtyard in the frontyard == thinking of grapes/passionfruit there. By the pool, there are a couple of planters and I was thinking of olives but maybe the fruitless kind or maybe cherimoya (because they look pretty). For the stone fruit, I was thinking of  planting them as hedges or putting them really close to each other like dave wilson nursery lists on their website (2 feet apart I think). Right now, everything is plotted as being 10 feet away from each other.

Also not a fan of having fruit trees against or near the house because of critters.

As for the cultivar list (see below), I have listed what I have but am not committed to keeping all of them. I have started some multi-grafting just to preserve what I have and save space. Pending means I have grafted/budded, bought, ordered, have on hold, solicited, etc... that variety but am waiting for it to grow or arrive. For some cultivars, I have more than 1 (usually by accident, or I didn't think 1 would survive, or I got a deal, or on different rootstock). Depending on space, I may not keep multiples.

Thanks again


AVOCADO
Carmen Hass x2
Day   
Fuerte   
GEM   
Green gold
Hass x2   
Hellen   
Herd   
Holiday   
Jan boyce
Kahalu’u x2   
Lamb hass
Nabal   
Oro negro
Pinkerton x2
Queen   
Reed   
Sharwil x 2
Sir prize   
Sharwil or Jan boyce, lost tag
   
MANGO   
Ambrosia   
Coconut cream
Cotton Candy
Edgehill   
Edward-Angie-Carrie multi-grafted
Fruit Punch
Juicy Peach
Keitt   
Lemon Zest
M-4 (pending)
Madame Francis
Mallika   
Manila queen
Orange Essence
Orange Sherbet* (TT – Yes, I know all the history behind this. I bought it before I knew. I am willing to watch and wait )
Peach Cobbler
Phoenix   
Placid   
PPK   
Multi-grafted mango (pending)
Multi-grafted mango 2 (pending)
Multi-grafted mango 3 (pending)
Multi-grafted mango 4 (pending)
Multi-grafted mango 5 (pending)
   
SAPOTE   
Black – black  beauty
Black – reinecke
Green   
Mamey – pace
Sapodilla – Tikal
   
CHERIMOYA, etc
Cherimoya x atemoya cross
El bumpo (pending)
Fino de jete
Pierce (may not survive…)
   
GUAVA   
Bassateen el sabahia
Red strawberry
Variegated guava
   
PERSIMMON
Chocolate
Coffee cake
Fuyu   
Giant Fuyu
Saijo   
   
FIG   
Black madeira (pending)
Col de dame blanc (pending)
Col de dame noir (pending)
Green ischia
Ischia black (pending)
Kadota   
LSU purple
Panache   
Preto (pending)
Seedless Kadota
Violette de Bordeaux
   
CITRUS   
Mandarin

Algerian   
Daisy   
Daisy SL (pending)
Fairchild LS (pending)
Gold nugget
Lee x nova (5 of these)
Miho wase
Multi-grafted mandarin (Dange, Page, Kishu, Algerian, Dward Honey)
Multi-mandarin (budded July 2017 with take: clemenules, shiranui x 2, china s-9, okitsu wase), August 2017 pending take: sunburst and usda 6-15-150)
Pixie   
Ponkan   
Satsuma   
Shasta gold (pending)
Sudaichi   
Tahoe Gold
Tango   
Unknown mandarin (on property, great flavor)
Xie shan mandarin
Yosemite Gold

Kumquat

Meiwa kumquat
Nagami kumquat
Nordmann kumquat

Lime/Lime-like

Bearss lime x 2
Kaffir lime
Mexican thornless lime
Rangpur lime

Lemon/Lemon-like

Meyer lemon x 4
Multi-lemon (budded August 2017 pending take: limonero fino 49, seedless lemon, genoa lemon, limonero fino largo 95, femminello siracusano 2kr)
New Zealand lemonade
Ponderosa lemon
Santa Teresa lemon
Variegated pink lemon
Villafranca lemon

Orange

Cara Cara pink navel
Moro blood orange
Navel x2   
Robertson
Valencia blood orange
Valencia x3
Multi-grafted Valencia orange, bearss lime, pink lemon (one of my first trees, kept for sentimental reasons)

Other

Minneola x4
Rio red grape fruit
Oro blanco grape fruit
Australian finger lime
Yuzu   
Indio mandarinquat
Marrakesh limonetta
Dweet tangor
Ortanique tangor
   
STONE FRUIT
Multi: July elberta peach, fantasia nectarine, babcock white peach, Blenheim royal apricot, Santa rosa plum
Nectaplum – Spice zee x2
Cherry – 6gm25
Cherry – 6gm25
Cherry – Minnie royal
Cherry – Minnie royal
Cherry – royal lee
Pluerry – Candy heart
Pluerry – Sweet treat
Multi-peach: mid-pride, eva’s pride, Florida prince, Desert Gold, May pride
Donut peach x 3
Katy apricot x 2
Nectarine x 3 (unknown varieties)
Santa rosa plum
Multi-pluot: Flavor supreme, flavor queen, flavor king, dapple dandy
Multi-pluot: Geo pride, splash, flavor grenade, emerald drop
Multi- cherry plum: Delight and Sprite
Pluot – Dapple supreme
Pluot – flavor finale
Pluto – flavor grenade
   
APPLE/PEAR
20th century Asian pear
Hosui Asian pear
Multi-apple: Gordon, Anna, golden dorsett, fuji, Arkansa black spur (I think… 2 grafts took but I lost my label)
Anna   
Fuji x 2   
   
POMEGRANATE
Grenada   
Parfianka   
Red silk   
Wonderful
Yellow (not sure if this is the cultivar name, got wood at scion exchange)
   
MULBERRY
Black Pakistan
Dwarf everbearing mulberry
Pakistan fruiting (Cooke)
Teas weeping
   
BERRIES   
Bababerry raspberry
Blackberry triple crown
Boysenberry thornless
Fall gold raspberry
Goji berry
Olallieberry
   
BLUEBERRY
1 other type, lost the tag
Misty blueberries
Pink lemonade
Southmoon
   
DRAGON FRUIT
1 other type, lost tag, supposedly very good
Dark star   
Hailey’s comet
Unknown variety (Gift from friend)
Vietnamese white
Yellow   
   
OLIVE   
1 other type, lost the tag
Arbequina
Arbosana   
   
OTHER   
Cacao x 5   
Cinnamon
Elder berry
Miracle fruit x 2
Passion fruit
Peanut butter fruit

Mugenia

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2017, 04:32:25 AM »
CA Hockey,

That's one helluva tropical fruit paradise. My folks have about 5 acres in Riverside area. They have as much tropical fruit trees as you do and their water bills are like $300-400/month. That's only drip system. They also have a pool. Crazy California...

I only have about 25 trees and massive yards right now. When I get home, I will plant some more fruit trees in the lower half of the hill, the front yard and in between rows. Possibly remove some of grass in the backyard and plant a row of sapodilla or something. I need some shades to keep the house cool in the afternoon and keep my electric bills low. Like you, I am also creating a tropical fruit paradise. Good Luck!!


CA Hockey

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2018, 12:15:17 AM »
FYI, updating this post with the new design. I have a few more trees but I think this design is smoother and more appealing to the eye.





The smaller circles are trees that should be planted within a few feet of each other (stone fruit, smaller mangoes, etc) -- things that will be planted at high density

The larger circles are for the specimens that may be shown off or showcased or allowed more space to grow.

:-)

PltdWorld

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2018, 12:57:54 AM »
What a great yard!

With that many avocado trees, it might be tempting to spread them throughout the yard.  Otherwise, I personally favor grouping similar fruits together (i.e. citrus is one section, annonas in another).  I am on a slope and I have my apricot and plumcots at the top of the hill - I get a great view half the year when they don't have leaves, but can't see anything when they fill in with leaves.

Personally, I like Mangos as specimen trees, avocados at the perimeter, grapes on trellises with the fruit hanging down, passion fruit on chainlink fence (i.e. set up a 4'-5' tall chain link fence to separate a portion of your yard - it's evergreen, attracts bees, and makes great fruit - but you can keep it tamed in this way) - and then sections for your figs, stone fruit, annonas, etc.

Share photos when the planting begins - you've got a fruit paradise on your hands!

CA Hockey

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2018, 02:36:35 AM »
Will do! that's the dream... right now it's a potted mess. We've been looking forward to this for a while now, saving up and planning. I keep messing up the plans by expanding the collection, but we're getting closer and closer.

I am also leaning towards grouping while having certain trees stand out more. I think annonas just look really pretty because of their leaf symmetry and may spread those out or put those near walkways. Im thinking of having the citrus closer to the front because they don't lose their leaves and have pretty fragrant flowers. The passionfruit chainlink fence is a great idea.

The specimen trees will be allowed to grow larger, so ideally they would produce exquisite fruit or they would be aesthetically pleasing. This is the hard part as only a small portion of my potted trees have been allowed to fruit regularly, while most have been held back by pots (avocados, mangos) or are immature with fruit that may taste different season to season as the tree matures -- so its hard for me to say which will have the best tasting fruit or not.


Victoria Ave

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2018, 12:19:09 PM »
Honestly I would go with much less plant materials. This is going to be one very dense planting and Irvine co works on a tiered system, that water bill is gonna go up. If you want dense tropical look I would go more towards having clusters of trees working together. Large trees with understory plantings and perhaps line gathering and circulation areas with smaller potted trees.

Then you can group and showcase your collection more than having a dense field.

I am a landscape architecture student and a tree enthusiast and this is just my opinion

behlgarden

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2018, 04:53:32 PM »
Will do! that's the dream... right now it's a potted mess. We've been looking forward to this for a while now, saving up and planning. I keep messing up the plans by expanding the collection, but we're getting closer and closer.

I am also leaning towards grouping while having certain trees stand out more. I think annonas just look really pretty because of their leaf symmetry and may spread those out or put those near walkways. Im thinking of having the citrus closer to the front because they don't lose their leaves and have pretty fragrant flowers. The passionfruit chainlink fence is a great idea.

The specimen trees will be allowed to grow larger, so ideally they would produce exquisite fruit or they would be aesthetically pleasing. This is the hard part as only a small portion of my potted trees have been allowed to fruit regularly, while most have been held back by pots (avocados, mangos) or are immature with fruit that may taste different season to season as the tree matures -- so its hard for me to say which will have the best tasting fruit or not.

Pretty slick plan overall. just keep in mind growth habbit of each variety within a variety. not all trees grow at same rate, you may have to mix match so you dont end up dwarfing smaller trees completely. Start a list with their growth pattern and heights, then lay them out.

sahai1

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2018, 08:32:19 PM »
I've seen some big Mango tree farm fails, owners I guess were "greedy" planted too close, didn't thin any growth, main trunk easily passes the 12 foot mark until spreading.. those types of problems will cost time to fix.  leads to low yields, disease, and fruit flies.  By the time they started pruning, they were taking off huge 24" thick branches, and wasn't nearly enough to help.  They needed a shorter trunk. They should have planted 1 mango tree within a square design, instead they had rows of mango trees planted alongside each other.  Basically they had 4 large mango trees in each amount of space that could have fit 1 smaller mango tree.


luak

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2018, 08:58:34 PM »
Ca Hocky, the one thing i would do, learn as much how shape the different species. My saying is this, i can make small tree's big and big tree's small, there is such thing as " the art of pruning". My persimmon tree's are all, no ladder tree's.
Bob.

Coach62

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2018, 09:31:25 PM »
Leaves – seriously, get a screen cage.  They are great, keep out bugs, leaves, you name it.

Satsuma, great, recommend 2 as they are first to ripen, (November, very early) and they are one of the best citrus you will ever eat.  I say 2 because you’ll be craving citrus come fall.

#2 I deleted – I see you added Valencia, smart.  They will keep on the tree as late as June, giving you about 8 months of citrus.

Don’t forget, you will probably need to do a raised bed for the blueberries, a mixture of peat and pine bark fines.

Stone fruit, I LOVE my Barbados cherry.  Everbearing (except winter), good fruit after the tree is a couple years old.  Highest vitamin C content of anything.  Barbados cherries are as much as 4% vitamin C by weight, believe it or not!

Lime – trust me, get a key lime tree. They are more or less everbearing, giving you limes most of the year.  AND – I have made FRESH key lime pies, WOW!!!

If you must eliminate – I suggest figs (sorry, they don’t keep – at all, and they don’t have tons of taste unless dried).  And guava, sorry, just personally not a huge fan of guava, other than they grow well, and are both drought and flood tolerant.  Just my personal opinion.

Great, great plan, just make sure you space well, and plan out a good DRIP irrigation system.

CA Hockey

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2018, 04:08:52 AM »
Those are good tips for us. The hardest part is making that list of growth habits for each variety. I’ve ignored that so far thinking I can prune to maintain, but you’re right there’s a smart way to arrange this so that I’m working with the plants natural inclinations rather than always fighting with them.


Re Victoria:

That was the plan we started with but we’ve discovered that most landscape designers and architects know more about design principles and aesthetics (which I appreciate) than functionality and growth characteristics and harmonizing the different biologies of the plants.

It got to a point where I actually contracted with some well respected nurserymen in Southern California to help with tree spotting but 3/6 agreed but never started the project and the other 3 said they were too busy. At some point I turned to the forum for some help because frankly I found more knowledge and plant passion here than elsewhere. I’d love to hear your ideas if you have the time for it.

As for water, irvine co has been really reasonable. We have 9 in the house. My water bill in Yorba Linda used to be 400$ each month and that was with minimal watering of plants just keeping them alive during the drought years on 1/3 acre. Now in orange I have a full acre and a different water district and my water bill is 50-60 per month.  But I’m also looking at drilling a well. 🤗 for long term water security.

I’ve hear Barbados cherries are pretty sour. Is that true? It’s held me away from them. Maybe I need to try one...

As for drip systems, how does that get designed? My neighbor recommended a 10 valve system(he just had his landscaping done)  but I’m not sure how to calculate water requirements or setup. Supposedly we have great soil over here that drains really well.



Mugenia

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2018, 07:59:39 AM »
CA Hockey,

Do you know how much it would cost to drill a deep well in Southern California? Who is the most reputable contractor for Southern California? Deep well drilling costs around $8/foot in Georgia. It requires no permit or anything. On our Georgia's old farm, we had a couple of massive wells that pumped thousands of gallon of water for next to nothing. We're spoiled on cheap water.

I have heard a lot of crazy expensive stories about drilling wells in California. So, I am advising my folks against drilling a well on their 5 acres in the Lake Mathews area. If drilling is reasonable in California, I will ask them to reconsider. They are planting an orchard of tropical fruits as a retirement hobby.

Thanks,

M

CA Hockey

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2018, 10:47:43 PM »
M

I just stared looking into it. I found one contractor in Apple valley that will charge out 25-30k including equipment and setup if there is no significant travel. The distance to my house increases their bid to about 40. That’s a hefty sum. Looking for local contractors and other opinions for comparison. They would drill about 400-500 feet.

I’ll keetry you posted when I hear more. Unfortunately I tend to work in spurts, so hopefully I still have energy this week to pursue this, otherwise it’ll get shelves til next week.

K

kar1ma3

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2018, 01:14:24 AM »
Great plan! I would  love to see all that growing!
I planted many trees 6 years ago on 1.5 acre property and then I started to remove citrus trees, guavas, pomegranates, avocados, bananas (too many bananas and not hurricane safe). Citrus are not so easy to grow (in FL) and fruits are cheap and I do not need so many. Key lime and persian limes are okay. Avocados - also not so expensive and tress are huge. Your mango selection is the best! I would add Glenn (very productive and early, very good when green in salads/ with salt and excellent when not fully ripe when you don't want super sweet mango and also very good in smoothies) and ST mango to the list and possibly Pickering (good taste,compact tree). Also, I would add to your list white sapote, garcinias, especially Bolivian mangosteen and g. brasiliensis, also lemon drop mangosteen and many others, many jaboticabas (they need water): few grimal and hybrid red ones/ escarlate and 10 or more different others. Many different annonas, as many cacao trees as you can grow if humidity is not too low in CA, longan and lychee trees, abiu (one tree may not produce fruits), kwai muk, canistel and ross sapote, moist lucuma, surinam cherry (black), starcherry, pitomba (needs water for high quality fruit), different uvaias (sweet and sweet/sour), e.calycina, grumichama and eugenia candolleana (both partial shade), starfruit, jackfruit (Cristela from Excalibur, so far is the best for me, tree and fruit), star apple, jujube and possibly few others (santol, rose apple, wax jambu etc.)  I can grow cinnamon tree in full sun and it loves a lot of light. Miracle fruit tree loves shade as many garcinias and cacao. Miracle f. is just for fun :) as I do not like sweet tasting Atlantic ocean water after eating those.. :)
Good luck!
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 07:23:29 PM by kar1ma3 »

OCchris1

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2018, 02:08:06 AM »
I second kar1ma3. Here is my ceylon cinnamon in full sun...it looks even better now with new fish and flowers (8ft.). The only problem with them in full sun is their need for water...must keep moist or the leaves will get sunburned and desiccate. Chris

OCchris1

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2018, 02:10:48 AM »
Forgot the pic:


BajaJohn

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Re: Advice on tree placement for landscaping project
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2018, 03:42:25 AM »
You have storage space for gardening equipment, fertiliser, compost etc. and an area to work in if you want to do any gardening? Access for a vehicle if you anticipate delivery of mulch material etc.

 

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