Cherimoya from High Andes

[googer]

Hello all. I am looking for cherimoyas from the absolute coldest part of their native range, which would appear to be the Andes Mountains of Bolivia and Peru. Does anyone know how I might be able to source cherimoya seeds from this part of the world?

[johnb51]

Keep in mind that these cherimoyas don't grow in the mountains, but rather in semi-tropical valleys with elevations of around 6600 ft. (like Mizque in Bolivia), where it doesn't snow.  My wife is from Bolivia, and I confirmed this with her.  So if you were thinking they might grow in Kentucky, that wouldn't be the case.

[Seanny]

How about Dream?

[johnb51]

How about Dream?

Won't grow outdoors in Kentucky!

[KarenRei]

I once knew a person who grew a tropical palm tree in his yard in Iowa.  Of course, he did so by - every year - bundling it into a column, wrapping the thing in incandescent Christmas lights (including the ground around the tree), then wrapping that with heavy insulation.  And it eventually got killed when a storm blew the insulation off.    But if you *really* try hard, you can grow a cherimoya outdoors in Kentucky 

Annonas are tropical trees. If you want an annonaceae, you should grow Asimina triloba (pawpaw).  There's a some threads here discussing good cultivars.  Or grow a small annona in a good-sized pot and bring it indoors for the winter every year (you'll need grow lights).

[johnb51]

Yes, pawpaw, that would work.  But I've never had the opportunity to taste one.

[KarenRei]

Yes, pawpaw, that would work.  But I've never had the opportunity to taste one.

Fresh but out of season:

http://www.earthy.com/Fresh-Pawpaws-from-Earthy-Delights.aspx
https://integrationacres.com/products/fresh-pawpaw-fruit-p-53.html

Frozen:

https://integrationacres.com/products/frozen-pawpaw-pulp-pawpaw-pleasures-p-44.html
https://www.amazon.com/Frozen-Pawpaw-Fruit-2-Lbs/dp/B00EXR6JVA

If getting a pawpaw cultivar I'd look for a low-annonacin one (Sunflower, Wabash, Potomac, Zimmerman, Wells, etc).  Pawpaw annonacin content on average appears to be similar to guanabana, but is more variable -  measurements range from 70μg/g to 7724μg/g.  Might as well keep it to a minimum 

[fruitlovers]

Keep in mind that these cherimoyas don't grow in the mountains, but rather in semi-tropical valleys with elevations of around 6600 ft. (like Mizque in Bolivia), where it doesn't snow.  My wife is from Bolivia, and I confirmed this with her.  So if you were thinking they might grow in Kentucky, that wouldn't be the case.

Yup, cherimoyas are a sub tropical, not a temperate fruit. They can't take freezes. I know someone who tried to start a commercial cherimoya orchard in northern California, and it failed, even though it was supposedly in a micro climate next to a lake.

[Triloba Tracker]

Maybe Googer is wanting to do some grafting with Asimina triloba 
I know he's into pawpaw.

Karen - where did you get your info on annonacin content of specific pawpaw cultivars? I have not come across anything that purported to list that. Interesting info. It's probably highly variable based on growing conditions.

John, I need to remember to try mailing you a pawpaw this season.

- Anthony

[KarenRei]

Maybe Googer is wanting to do some grafting with Asimina triloba 
I know he's into pawpaw.

Karen - where did you get your info on annonacin content of specific pawpaw cultivars? I have not come across anything that purported to list that. Interesting info. It's probably highly variable based on growing conditions.

John, I need to remember to try mailing you a pawpaw this season.

- Anthony

Haha, I should have figured that someone with the name Triloba Tracker would be curious about that 

http://www.pawpaw.kysu.edu/PDF/AcetoUpdate3.pdf

Beyond the general comments on page 25, note also the brine shrimp test results on page 21; they had to use 28 times as much extract from 'Sunflower' to kill brine shrimp they tested versus their 'Mitchell' extract.  As for some other measurements:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/314499988/FDA-Annona

That's the highest measurement I've seen in pawpaw pulp, 7724  ug/g (note, however: that's per gram of *dry weight*, and the fruit are ~80% water).  A couple others:

70μg/g: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22130466
304μg/g: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf504500g?src=recsys&journalCode=jafcau

I ignore the studies that measure the seeds, as nobody eats them - just the flesh    But the short of it is that you usually see measurements on guanabana varying by, say, 3-4 fold, but measurements on pawpaw vary by 1 1/2 orders of magnitude.  Makes me wonder if pawpaw genetic diversity is greater than in the commonly cultivated annonas.

I've read an awful lot of papers, and I fully accept the science around the toxicity of annonacin and related compounds, its ability to enter the bloodstream from the diet, and its impacts on atypical parkinsons.  But I also eat annonas, even high-annonacin ones like guanabana, for the simple reason that studies also show that the level of dosing associated with symptoms is near daily consumption of high-annonacin fruits or fruit extracts, which is way more than I eat, and that in young people who first show the symptoms, they're generally reversible upon cessation of annona consumption.  Aka, there's nothing to suggest that the occasional consumption of annonas causes any sort of lasting damage. Same story IMHO with sassafras tea.  I consume far more more safrole through spices than I ever consumed through sassafras tea, and nobody's out there shouting "Stop eating basil!" 

One more thing, at risk of going off topic - about how big is A. reticulata when it starts to bloom?  And does it need a dry season?  I just potted up my reticulata and it's getting pretty big; I'm wondering whether I should try to trigger it after the roots have some time to reestablish 

[Triloba Tracker]

Thanks Karen! Should’ve known KSU would be behind those data.

I’m with you on the dangers of annona consumption (or should I say, effective lack thereof for most people)

[KarenRei]

Thanks Karen! Should’ve known KSU would be behind those data.

I’m with you on the dangers of annona consumption (or should I say, effective lack thereof for most people)

Yeah, I'd love to see an update on KSU's work.  This is the sort of problem that should be able to be effectively bred away, especially given what already appears to be significant genetic diversity in A. triloba.

Many if not most foods can kill you if you consume too much.  Chocolate starts becoming toxic for your average adult at a dose of ~150 grams of raw cacao.  About the same dose of nutmeg will cause you to start having hallucinations. Rhubarb's dangers when overconsumed, due to its oxalic acid, are well known - particularly with regards to kidney stones. Many oceanic fish, particularly ones high up on the food chain, can cause you to build up dangerous levels of mercury and other heavy metals / persistent organic compounds if overconsumed.  Most commercial cinnamon contains coumarin, which is hepatotoxic and suggested to cause neurological damage in children when consumed during pregnancy; a teaspoon of cinnamon per day is above the recommended safe dose for smaller individuals.  More than 5 brazil nuts per day puts one at risk of selenium overdose. Overconsumption of soy can cause anemia and endometrial hyperplasia.  I mean, the list goes on and on. I think it's a bit more insidious with annonacin because there's such a delay between consumption and symptoms, and because it's a lot easier to picture how a person could pick up an annona-a-day habit versus, say, downing a couple tablespoons of nutmeg    Plus, if it is allowed to progress too far it can become a serious, irreversible condition.  But the acetogen consumption levels just are too low for a "casual" annona consumer for it to be something to lose sleep over; the amount I consume is below that of the "control groups" in the studies! I'd question, given the studies I'd seen, whether lower-acetogenic fruits like biribá, sugar apple, atemoya, etc could even cause atypicla parkinsons at all, given how much lower the levels are than in guanabana.  I don't think a person could eat that much; I think it'd kill them through diabetes first with all those carbs 

Anyway, "sola dosis facit venenum." 

[WGphil]

Recieved two paw paw trees today.

A Gainesville #2 and a Mango cultivar.

I also have a soursop and going to try to get both it and paw paw to fruit in same yard.

This should be fun but odds say no.

[fruitlovers]

Pawpaws are still mostly fruits consumed from the wild. Very little breeding work compared to, for example, cherimoyas, which have been selectively bred and consumed by humans for hundreds, if not thousands of years. If atypical Parkinson's was caused by consuming cherimoyas there would be hundreds of cases in South Anerica in areas where these fruits are indeed consumed daily. There really are no proven case studies showing any causal connections between consuming annonas and atypical Parkinsons.