Author Topic: when will genetic testing finally revolutionize taxonomy?  (Read 4450 times)

FlyingFoxFruits

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when will genetic testing finally revolutionize taxonomy?
« on: April 03, 2015, 12:14:13 PM »
I thought this would have happened by now!

How much longer do we have to wait for the technology to become more affordable?
 
I wonder how many years will pass before we have a handheld device that can analyze tissue samples of plants, and compare their genomes to help identify and classify them?

seems like it could be done now...but we'd rather spend the money on building a new bomb.  :'(
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Re: when will genetic testing finally revolutionize taxonomy?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2015, 12:43:33 PM »
I thought this would have happened by now!

How much longer do we have to wait for the technology to become more affordable?
 
I wonder how many years will pass before we have a handheld device that can analyze tissue samples of plants, and compare their genomes to help identify and classify them?

seems like it could be done now...but we'd rather spend the money on building a new bomb:'(

Exactly right Adam.  The technology is here, but the money is not.  That is the dirty little secret of scientific research.  We go where the money is, and unfortunately the government does not care enough about plant taxonomy to designate funding for the work to be done.

Cheers,
Richard

FlyingFoxFruits

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Re: when will genetic testing finally revolutionize taxonomy?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2015, 12:49:41 PM »
Richard,

thanks for the info.

I guess it could be argued that humanity is being subjected to an artificial "dark age", by technocracy.

 :'(
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TropicalFruitHunters

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Re: when will genetic testing finally revolutionize taxonomy?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2015, 01:07:19 PM »
What!!??  You don't appreciate all the incorrect descriptions found on the web, or the spirited discussions/arguments over which garcinia is which?!!  Forums such as this might as well shut down with such a device at hand and at the very least crush the egos of many.  Perish the thought!   :P

ricshaw

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Re: when will genetic testing finally revolutionize taxonomy?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2015, 01:21:00 PM »
I appreciate that the University of California Riverside has done some testing on the Dragon Fruit collection in Irvine.

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Re: when will genetic testing finally revolutionize taxonomy?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2015, 01:55:45 PM »
What!!??  You don't appreciate all the incorrect descriptions found on the web, or the spirited discussions/arguments over which garcinia is which?!!  Forums such as this might as well shut down with such a device at hand and at the very least crush the egos of many.  Perish the thought!   :P


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Re: when will genetic testing finally revolutionize taxonomy?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2015, 03:03:46 PM »
Nerds will always get to argue even if every living organism is sequenced.  Phylogenetic trees from dna data are created by computer programs that do things like bootstrapping to select similarities and differences in the data sets. It gets tricky though with things like plants that are capable of carrying duplicate sets of chromosomes, or when viruses inject new dna into the genome. Add in fertile hybrids and incomplete segregation events and it gets messy. The same mechanisms that make evolution possible also muddy the waters a bit. So for things like finding out what group of land animals whales came from genetics is awesome, but for looking at the relationship of closely related and possibly hybrid species it is not a silver bullet. Modern wheat would be a good example. It will get us closer, solve alot, but there will still be alot of arguments. Look at some of the work on humans right now, where autosomal, maternal and paternal dna sequences are not always in agreement as to the origins of different races. But arguing is half the fun.

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Re: when will genetic testing finally revolutionize taxonomy?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2015, 04:00:36 PM »
How much are people willing to pay? It's still going to be expensive with the advancements in sequencing technologies because samples will still have to be sterilized prior to DNA extractions in order not to introduce foreign DNA. After sequencing a sample you need to build up a reference database to blast sequences against so first a database must be built up from known true varieties. The more samples there are, the cheaper the pricing for sequencing.

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Re: when will genetic testing finally revolutionize taxonomy?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2015, 04:33:08 PM »
What!!??  You don't appreciate all the incorrect descriptions found on the web, or the spirited discussions/arguments over which garcinia is which?!!  Forums such as this might as well shut down with such a device at hand and at the very least crush the egos of many.  Perish the thought!   :P


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Re: when will genetic testing finally revolutionize taxonomy?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2015, 04:47:31 PM »
F' the forum, the arguments and my ego, I'll take the device!

What!!??  You don't appreciate all the incorrect descriptions found on the web, or the spirited discussions/arguments over which garcinia is which?!!  Forums such as this might as well shut down with such a device at hand and at the very least crush the egos of many.  Perish the thought!   :P


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Mike T

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Re: when will genetic testing finally revolutionize taxonomy?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2015, 05:42:18 PM »
Genetic testing creates more arguments as the results need interpreting.Speciation happens at different rates in different groups and there is a different genetic distance apart to constitute different species in each group.Citrus growers could be pissed if they find out nearly all domesticated citrus are one species. The genetic and taxonomic rules of taxonomy don't really seem to apply to commercial fruit species.
Genetic testing is used in taxonomy all the time and the genetic trees or relatedness lean heavily on genetic work.They are not the only tool and the morphology and ecology of plants is just as important in classification.

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Re: when will genetic testing finally revolutionize taxonomy?
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2015, 01:51:46 AM »
Classifications, categories, and names are all human concoctions to help communication. But nature is in constant flux. It doesn't live inside neat little categories. So i think Mike is right. Your little device Adam ain't gonna stop the arguments. Besides if all the money is spent on bombs why bother with plants? One bomb can ruin your whole life's work in your garden. There goes all your DNA.... Puffffff
Oscar

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Re: when will genetic testing finally revolutionize taxonomy?
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2015, 03:52:42 AM »
Avoiding the "bombs" stuff, as it would make this thread have to move to off topic (I'll just point out that US defense spending has been on the decline for years, so that's not the reason for a lack of funding for plant taxonomy).  Regardless, while it's clear that DNA testing may not give a clear answer at the species level, at least the ability to clear up higher level conflicts would be useful. And at the lower levels, even if it was ambiguous where to draw species lines, I would think that there would be  lots of data one could get.

 * Are two separate "cultivars" that people suspect to actually be one under two different names actually effectively genetically identical?
 * Are there certain genes that tend to correspond with certain properties in the fruit?
 * Does a certain cultivar with seemingly unique properties actually have some new genetics behind it, or is it just a particular combination of alleles already common in its relatives?
 * If we discover that a given set of X genes are responsible for a series of properties we find very important in the fruit, one could make and distribute rapid testing kits for breeding programs, cultivar analysis, etc, rather than having to sequence whole genomes each time?

... and so forth.
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Re: when will genetic testing finally revolutionize taxonomy?
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2015, 03:55:28 AM »
Avoiding the "bombs" stuff, as it would make this thread have to move to off topic (I'll just point out that US defense spending has been on the decline for years, so that's not the reason for a lack of funding for plant taxonomy).  Regardless, while it's clear that DNA testing may not give a clear answer at the species level, at least the ability to clear up higher level conflicts would be useful. And at the lower levels, even if it was ambiguous where to draw species lines, I would think that there would be  lots of data one could get.

 * Are two separate "cultivars" that people suspect to actually be one under two different names actually effectively genetically identical?
 * Are there certain genes that tend to correspond with certain properties in the fruit?
 * Does a certain cultivar with seemingly unique properties actually have some new genetics behind it, or is it just a particular combination of alleles already common in its relatives?
 * If we discover that a given set of X genes are responsible for a series of properties we find very important in the fruit, one could make and distribute rapid testing kits for breeding programs, cultivar analysis, etc, rather than having to sequence whole genomes each time?

... and so forth.

yes, it would be really useful for certain plants (organisms), I don't care what spin you put on it...if you had a handheld device that could analyze the genome of a particular organism, and compare it with other genomes, that would be a game changer.
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KarenRei

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Re: when will genetic testing finally revolutionize taxonomy?
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2015, 04:33:47 AM »
Avoiding the "bombs" stuff, as it would make this thread have to move to off topic (I'll just point out that US defense spending has been on the decline for years, so that's not the reason for a lack of funding for plant taxonomy).  Regardless, while it's clear that DNA testing may not give a clear answer at the species level, at least the ability to clear up higher level conflicts would be useful. And at the lower levels, even if it was ambiguous where to draw species lines, I would think that there would be  lots of data one could get.

 * Are two separate "cultivars" that people suspect to actually be one under two different names actually effectively genetically identical?
 * Are there certain genes that tend to correspond with certain properties in the fruit?
 * Does a certain cultivar with seemingly unique properties actually have some new genetics behind it, or is it just a particular combination of alleles already common in its relatives?
 * If we discover that a given set of X genes are responsible for a series of properties we find very important in the fruit, one could make and distribute rapid testing kits for breeding programs, cultivar analysis, etc, rather than having to sequence whole genomes each time?

... and so forth.

yes, it would be really useful for certain plants (organisms), I don't care what spin you put on it...if you had a handheld device that could analyze the genome of a particular organism, and compare it with other genomes, that would be a game changer.

Think too of what it could mean for keeping species diversity up. If someone is in, say, Mali, and runs a test on a lemon tree there, and it comes back, whoa, this lemon tree is really different from all of our other samples labeled as lemon trees in our database... suddenly you have a prime target for A) conservation, B) study (pest resistance, nutrition, soil requirements, etc, to see if these differences translate to useful properties), C) breeding programs, and so forth.

Without such a test, a person would most likely have looked at the tree and thought, "yep, it's a lemon tree", and nothing more.

I could imagine such a scenario where - if they could be made cheap enough - major plant breeders would give out test kits for free to people so long as they use them at least X times a month. Just simply to help build up their database of potential stocks to use in their programs. Or maybe testers could be something users have to buy, but breeders could set "bounties" for certain kinds of plants if the user can identify them and return cuttings or seeds that can be successfully cultivated. For example, a breeder trying to breed a pest-resistant orange might post, "Find a citrus species that has an undiscovered version of any of these 17 genes that usually code for proteins that provide insect resistance: $300 per unique gene discovered".  A botanist looking for new species could post something like "Find a plant in X region whose genetic profile is more than Y% different than any other plants in our database: $150 per discovery". Or maybe "We think this plant may have gone extinct. $5000 if you can discover it alive and send us viable propagation material."

Ordinary people could make a career out of traveling around the world hunting out genetic diversity. An impoverished village in the rainforest could sustain itself just by going out and profiling all of the never-before analyzed flora. Etc. And can you imagine what that would mean for a breeder or researcher, to simply have to throw a couple thousand or tens of thousands of dollars on the table, and have people around the world automatically start express mailing you cuttings and seeds of plants with versions of the genes you're interested in that have never before been studied? Or even ones that have previously been discovered but are rare and hard to find / acquire? Likewise, what'd it'd mean for a botanist to be able to be able to launch non-stop exploration campaigns at the cost of the occasional payout rather than continuous overseas expedition costs?

(Again, at this point, we're most likely not talking about a device that does complete sequencing, rather anywhere between several dozen to a couple thousand specific genes shown to commonly vary within particular groupings of plants - something along the lines of an accessory that pairs with a smartphone (or satphone, for really remote areas) and uses it for data transmission and/or processing)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 11:08:09 AM by KarenRei »
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Mike T

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Re: when will genetic testing finally revolutionize taxonomy?
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2015, 06:19:08 AM »
Really a fair bit of genetic work is done by plant taxonomists and it seems to be what drives many revisions.I remember reading the genetic assessment of 64 Malaysian accessions of Lansium domesticum  and knowing less about this species after reading it.The genetic assessment of the durian clones in Australia by Lim et al included a 3D model of relationships that was actually useful for a casual reader.

 

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