The Tropical Fruit Forum

Citrus => Citrus General Discussion => Topic started by: Kelley_GA8a on April 05, 2019, 10:29:46 PM

Title: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Kelley_GA8a on April 05, 2019, 10:29:46 PM
Question: any recommendations on getting a graft to wake up? My Carrubaro lemon is still green and the graft has fused (grafted at the end of December/beginning of January) but showing no signs of swelling. My two other amalfi grafts should be leafing out any day now.

Note: the Carrubaro is inside a plastic container that is sitting on a heat mat.

Thanks for your time! :)

Kelley
(https://i.postimg.cc/zb4FSLS3/4-D7-B7162-FC35-41-ED-995-B-38-BD6-B8-B0-B38.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zb4FSLS3)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y4n30Dv6/BC3-EC9-B6-937-D-486-B-BB44-2-C4-CEF25-CAC0.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Y4n30Dv6)

(https://i.postimg.cc/dkh9yRCz/C0-BC4-C45-88-DB-429-F-AF76-0-CFB753-BE78-C.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dkh9yRCz)
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Sylvain on April 06, 2019, 09:01:00 AM
Bad choice of budwood.
These budwoods are forks, that means the main buds have sproot and have later been cut. (not sure of my english  ;) )
Your only hope is now the lateral buds, one on each side of the (cutted) main buds.
It can take a very long time for them to sprout...
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Laaz on April 06, 2019, 09:55:02 AM
Sylvain is correct. The first 2-4 nodes on a branch are usually blind buds & will not work. When taking budwood you want to discard the lower portion of the branch. I had a bunch of photos on the old citrus forum, but I guess they are all lost.
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Vlad on April 06, 2019, 10:47:11 AM
I do not understand Sylvain's and Laaz's replies as to why the grafts will not work. By "first 2-4 nodes on a branch" do you mean the nodes nearest the tip of the branch? Why won't it work?
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Laaz on April 06, 2019, 11:21:42 AM
You don't use the first 3-4 buds from the starting point of the branch, they normally will not sprout.

(http://oi64.tinypic.com/56ty0.jpg)
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: citrange on April 06, 2019, 03:07:49 PM
SYLVAIN is explaining that the best choice for grafting is a leaf node that has not yet sprouted.
Each such leaf node contains an embryonic sprout that will start to grow after grafting.
If you choose a node that has already sprouted (what Sylvain calls 'a fork') growth will often be very slow because new shoots do not easily develop at this point - although they probably will eventually.
In the finger lime twig photo below I have marked a fork - which is the bad choice - and a leaf node, which is a better choice for grafting.
In Laaz's diagram you could extend the red box to the bottom left, so that the fork in the twigs is also included as a blind bud.
Hope this is now clearer!
(https://i.postimg.cc/py5c22cX/graftbuds.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/py5c22cX)
(Click photo to enlarge.)
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: luak on April 06, 2019, 03:10:31 PM
Laaz, i still have a Sony-cd-r of your grafting tutorial from the old citrus forum. My new computer will not play it. Those were the days that i start learning about " citrus".
Good observation on Kelley's graft, but on one picture i saw a viable healthy bud, waiting to push.
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Kelley_GA8a on April 06, 2019, 04:38:04 PM
Thank you all for your help and explanations! Boy, that is disappointing, as I do not know if I can obtain more of this budwood. I will see what happens with this one and try to get more for the future.

Thanks again, guys!!
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Laaz on April 06, 2019, 04:47:41 PM
Carrubaro is a Femminello lemon which are my favorites. If you luck out & it sprouts, I would be interested in a budstick at some point.
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Laaz on April 06, 2019, 04:48:39 PM
luak the photos should be in standard .jpg format.
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: mrtexas on April 06, 2019, 05:24:15 PM
You can usually tell if the lowest buds are blind or not by inspecting
to make sure there is a bud there.
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Vlad on April 06, 2019, 10:56:33 PM
I thank you all for your lucid explanations.
Kelley, I have my fingers crossed that your graft succeeds after all. Good luck!
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Kelley_GA8a on April 07, 2019, 09:33:21 AM
Thank you for the kind words, Vlad! Laaz, if you want a Femminello variety now, the CCPP has Femminello Siracusano 2KR available. I received budwood back in October and my graft is just now waking up. I’m very excited for this variety:)
(https://i.postimg.cc/v45Z22JQ/C2-F25-F80-F72-D-4209-B51-F-0094-FF09-FC57.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/v45Z22JQ)
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Laaz on April 07, 2019, 09:48:05 AM
Thanks, but I already have that one.
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Kelley_GA8a on April 07, 2019, 10:42:57 AM
Laaz, I sent you a PM.
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: simon_grow on April 10, 2019, 10:56:13 PM
Have you tried a mild drench with some fertilizer? That may be enough to wake it up.

Simon
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: jbclem on April 15, 2019, 08:40:49 PM
I'm curious to know if the bud sticks that we order from UCR are entire branches, including blind buds, or if they make their cuts to avoid these buds.
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Kelley_GA8a on April 15, 2019, 08:49:50 PM
The budsticks that I received were all good buds, no blind:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7C268hMR/FF0-ECA49-03-EE-4065-82-C6-B134-F839-DA7-C.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7C268hMR)

Simon, I have sprayed them with Superthrive, but not fertilizer - that’s a good idea! I did notice today that the Carrubaro is waking up:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3WWqKGDW/2422-A595-2-C4-A-40-A8-96-E8-4-D0-E6-CB8-E5-CB.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3WWqKGDW)

(https://i.postimg.cc/FdHBkdWW/90-C546-EA-32-C8-4612-911-C-CECCCDEA50-EF.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FdHBkdWW)
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Millet on April 15, 2019, 09:57:03 PM
Superthrive is a complete  waste of money, a worthless product.  I remember a test Dr. Manners conducted at Florida Southern University, and reported the results - Could see no benefit over plants that were not given suuperthrive.
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Kelley_GA8a on April 15, 2019, 10:06:31 PM
Millet, I have not seen any benefits from using it either. I picked up a spray bottle for $5 and figured I’d give it a try. I will not be buying any more.
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: jbclem on April 16, 2019, 04:46:52 AM
Kelley, how can you tell that the buds aren't blind.  Do they look different from blind buds?

MrTexas said this: "You can usually tell if the lowest buds are blind or not by inspecting to make sure there is a bud there."  But this statement didn't make sense to me.  Unless "blind bud" literally means a junction (leaf junction?)  on a piece of wood without a bud in the junction. 
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Kelley_GA8a on April 16, 2019, 05:29:11 AM
Let me say that I’m 99.9% sure there were no blind buds - there were none that had previously grown branches; only thorns and leaves. The budsticks were very nice :).
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: jbclem on April 16, 2019, 07:19:59 AM
Aren't you talking about buds in forks?  What I've read here is that the first 2-4 nodes on the branch (that is cut off to become scionwood) are the blind ones.  You count from the attachment point of this branch/cutting.  So if the CCPP is giving you cuttings that include the end that was attached to the trunk, or to a branch, then you are getting 2-4 blind buds.  If they are deliberately counting 4 buds away from the trunk or branch and then making the cut, they are giving you a cutting without blind buds.  That's how I'm understanding it.

I've been exchanging emails with Rock Christiano at the CCPP.  I'll ask him about this.

 
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Laaz on April 16, 2019, 08:44:03 AM
I've had much butter success with cleft grafting by using a stick with 3-4 instead of a single bud. I also never remove the grafting tape until the buds start forcing their way through.

(http://oi67.tinypic.com/zwjdki.jpg)

Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Laaz on April 16, 2019, 08:52:23 AM
Like this...

(http://oi68.tinypic.com/23wk204.jpg)
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Laaz on April 16, 2019, 08:54:39 AM
If you're only using a single bud, you'll have much better success T-budding it.

(http://oi67.tinypic.com/adngc0.jpg)
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: mrtexas on April 16, 2019, 11:13:36 AM
Kelley, how can you tell that the buds aren't blind.  Do they look different from blind buds?

MrTexas said this: "You can usually tell if the lowest buds are blind or not by inspecting to make sure there is a bud there."  But this statement didn't make sense to me.  Unless "blind bud" literally means a junction (leaf junction?)  on a piece of wood without a bud in the junction.

Blind bud means no bud at all. Easily inspected for.
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Kelley_GA8a on April 17, 2019, 05:53:48 AM
Laaz, that t-bud graft is super clean! I need to practice a lot more, as mine are pretty rough looking lol.
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Laaz on April 17, 2019, 08:58:39 AM
That's a inverted T-bud they work the best for me. The way I cut the buds, you can feel them pop right into the spot. If the rootstock is not slipping, you can chip bud as well.
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Laaz on April 17, 2019, 09:02:14 AM
I did a bunch of tutorials with many photos, but many of the photos were lost over time. Have a look here.  http://citrusgrowersstatic.chez.com/web/viewtopic0aed-2.php (http://citrusgrowersstatic.chez.com/web/viewtopic0aed-2.php)
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Sylvain on April 18, 2019, 06:57:22 AM
If you still have the missing pictures I can put them back. You just send me the pictures and the exact place where I must put them.
Obviously, it's valid for everyone!
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Laaz on April 18, 2019, 08:00:16 AM
I wish I did, but that hard drive is long gone...
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Sylvain on April 18, 2019, 05:51:31 PM
 :(
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: behlgarden on April 18, 2019, 06:42:21 PM
Question: any recommendations on getting a graft to wake up? My Carrubaro lemon is still green and the graft has fused (grafted at the end of December/beginning of January) but showing no signs of swelling. My two other amalfi grafts should be leafing out any day now.

Note: the Carrubaro is inside a plastic container that is sitting on a heat mat.

Thanks for your time! :)

Kelley
(https://i.postimg.cc/zb4FSLS3/4-D7-B7162-FC35-41-ED-995-B-38-BD6-B8-B0-B38.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zb4FSLS3)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y4n30Dv6/BC3-EC9-B6-937-D-486-B-BB44-2-C4-CEF25-CAC0.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Y4n30Dv6)

(https://i.postimg.cc/dkh9yRCz/C0-BC4-C45-88-DB-429-F-AF76-0-CFB753-BE78-C.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dkh9yRCz)

Put it in a garage, hot temp there might push thru the cutoff node.
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Kelley_GA8a on May 20, 2019, 06:50:13 AM
Update: looks like the blind bud on my Carrubaro came through after all!

(https://i.postimg.cc/phDp4wYx/BCE8-E458-D3-DB-4-F7-F-A655-CCAC149519-F1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/phDp4wYx)
Title: Re: Grafting Question: Advice Needed
Post by: Bomand on May 20, 2019, 08:17:37 AM
The budwood that I got this spring had no blind buds on it. Some of it was small & angular but usable.