Author Topic: Possible to top work this mango tree  (Read 4365 times)

BeBetter

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Possible to top work this mango tree
« on: May 08, 2020, 07:21:55 AM »
Hello all,

I’m interested to know if top working this mango tree would work. It came with the house and I would rather a small bushy tree, I’m afraid this one will grow to be a monster. I was thinking of possibly air layering a branch to get a clone just in case the top work doesn’t work. I’m open to all advice. Thanks!!


Jaboticaba45

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2020, 11:14:40 AM »
Have you considered "pugging" it?

BeBetter

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2020, 11:38:17 AM »
I have never herd of pugging. Looks like that’s what I’m after. Would it be better to just saw off the top the tree and leave the first branch or go ahead and cut below the top branch? I don’t have much experience with pruning fruit trees.


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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2020, 12:30:17 PM »
It would set you back, but I would chop it down to ~2-4' off the ground.  This time of year it'll put out new growth quickly and you might just be able to start grafting by fall. I have a 15 ft atalufo seedling that hasn't put so much as a flower out, so I did what I'm suggesting to you about three months ago (left one branch in the hopes it'll come around). I already have thick, graftable new-growth limbs. I'm waiting a bit while I plan what varieties I want to graft onto it, but it's ready to go now.

BeBetter

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2020, 01:08:48 PM »
It would set you back, but I would chop it down to ~2-4' off the ground.  This time of year it'll put out new growth quickly and you might just be able to start grafting by fall. I have a 15 ft atalufo seedling that hasn't put so much as a flower out, so I did what I'm suggesting to you about three months ago (left one branch in the hopes it'll come around). I already have thick, graftable new-growth limbs. I'm waiting a bit while I plan what varieties I want to graft onto it, but it's ready to go now.

Thanks for the suggestion! What are the chances of survival if I cut it that low? I dont need to have any leafs left on the tree for it to grow back? Thanks!

JakeFruit

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2020, 02:30:27 PM »
I'm still only a few years into my journey, hopefully wiser growers confirm, but in my experience it'll 100% come busting back. The fact that it's obviously got an established root system and built up a good amount of energy store should see it through. Figure out how many branches you want (I'd suggest 4 to 8), then prune off all new branch starts (you can just scrape the smaller new growth off with your fingernail) along the trunk excepting your selected branches so they get all the energy. It'll keep trying to start new branches for quite awhile, you'll still be removing new growth well after your selected branches have put out their first set of leaves.

Be strategic about where the branches you keep are located, you'll want them spread out around your trunk so they aren't overlapping/constraining each other as they grow. I'd probably just keep 4 branches looking at the diameter of it's trunk again.

Good Luck!

BeBetter

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2020, 03:31:31 PM »
Be strategic about where the branches you keep are located, you'll want them spread out around your trunk so they aren't overlapping/constraining each other as they grow. I'd probably just keep 4 branches looking at the diameter of it's trunk again.

Good Luck!

Thank you! Going to give this a go this weekend. When I cut the trunk, should I make a clean cut or an angled cut to prevent water build up. I was going to pick up some pruning sealant for extra protection.

NewGen

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2020, 04:24:45 PM »


I really should pug this Manila, but it gives me 20+ fruits every year, very fragrant and tasty, so I can't bring myself to cutting it down to 4'. Maybe I will, after this year's harvest.

simon_grow

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2020, 04:54:00 PM »
Hello all,

I’m interested to know if top working this mango tree would work. It came with the house and I would rather a small bushy tree, I’m afraid this one will grow to be a monster. I was thinking of possibly air layering a branch to get a clone just in case the top work doesn’t work. I’m open to all advice. Thanks!!


Go to Tropical Acres or Truly Tropical and sample as many different varieties as you can to find your favorite. Once you find your favorite, check to make sure it’s resistant or less prone to MBBS and also make sure it’s a good producing variety. I highly recommend Sweet Tart even though it may crack and also alternate bear. You can also have Mangos delivered to you from Tropical Acres.

Once you find out which mango varieties suits your requirements, hire someone like Har or learn to top work the tree. If you want a smaller bushier tree, you may want to chop the tree down to about 3.5-4 feet, doesn’t look like you’ll be left with any scaffold branches, and then bark graft with 2-3 scions depending on how large a diameter your rootstock is.

Sweet Tart is a rather large and good grower so may not be your best option but with tipping, you can keep it pretty bushy. Once the fruiting wood is established, severely cut back on Nitrogen and focus more on Potassium. Something like 0-10–10 is pretty good if you include a minor and trace package when needed. With your lawn, the tree will probably steal any Nitrogen fertilizer that you give your lawn so definitely try to stay away from Nitrogen.

Chris from Truly Tropical has excellent videos on top working and grafting mango trees. If I live nearby, I would gladly stop by and just bark graft the tree for you since it’s only a single tree but I’m all the way in San Diego. Good luck with your tree, mangos are awesome, I hope you can keep the rootstock. Please try to sample some Zill mangos like Lemon Zest, Sweet Tart, Coconut Cream, Pina Colada, Pineapple Pleasure. Just don’t grow LZ because of disease issues but tasting it should be on your bucket list.

Simon

BeBetter

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2020, 08:37:05 PM »
Thanks for the tips! I live close by both farms. I intend to sample as many as possible.

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2020, 06:35:27 AM »


I really should pug this Manila, but it gives me 20+ fruits every year, very fragrant and tasty, so I can't bring myself to cutting it down to 4'. Maybe I will, after this year's harvest.

If you like the fruit and the tree then just cut one branch and graft the sprouts from it. That’s a nice looking tree.
Don’t rush, take time and enjoy life and food.

JakeFruit

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2020, 09:45:23 AM »
Here's a video tutorial for the bark grafting Simon mentions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atOdPM6FmL0
I've only attempted bark grafting onto a pugged tree once, 6 scions and none took, but I was not using the technique in the video (I notched the trunk and fit the scions into the notches, very haphazard in hindsight). It looks fairly easy and a good way to predetermine where your branches will be. You'll still have the tree attempting to start it's own branches again, so you could attempt the bark grafts and also let a few branches develop. If the bark grafts fail, you'll have the branches you can attempt cleft or veneer grafts on.

Assuming you are a novice at grafting, I would let one branch develop un-grafted. If all your attempts fail, your tree will have that branch and its leaves to fall back on. Once you have success, you can remove or graft that branch, but WAIT until you two successful flushes from your graft(s). You're in a favorable position considering it's an established tree and not a potted seedling (much more energy and resources to draw upon), but things that start out so right can quickly go wrong in the grafting world. Watch multiple videos on the technique you want to use, use the sharpest blades, and treat it like surgery (avoid touching or contaminating the exposed wood with anything but the blade). I've tried zip-ties, rubberbands, and clothespins to secure my grafts (after I've wrapped them in parafilm). I currently prefer clothespins, just make sure whatever you secure them with is not too tight. The first year I was strangling my poor grafts, wayyyy too tight.

BeBetter

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2020, 09:59:43 AM »
I am thinking of going the easy rout since i dont have much grafting experience. Just hacking the tree off at about 4 foot and wait for it to send up suckers and try to graft to those. While the tree heals i was planning on practicing on some eggplant I have in the garden.

Orkine

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2020, 02:08:31 PM »
Why 4 feet, why not 3 or 2.5?
Just curious.  Are you thinking of mowing under it?
remember the new growth will be your scaffold branches.  Do you want them 4 feet off the ground or lower?

Do your research then go for it, and keep this topic going with updates.

One last thing, check on the stem to see if it is a grafted tree.  If it is, you may want o cut above the graft union and keep one of the branches ungrafted so that you can see what the original tree was.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2020, 02:12:07 PM by Orkine »

BeBetter

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2020, 02:15:28 PM »
Why 4 feet, why not 3 or 2.5?
Just curious.  Are you thinking of mowing under it?

Thats a good question lol I figured 4 feet sounded like a good height. I would like to be able to still mow under it. This is going to be an interesting experiment. I still dont know when Im going to do it, I may be suffering from paralysis by analysis.

Orkine

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2020, 04:01:00 PM »
I will suggest 3 feet.
The typical recommendation is to tip your seedling at hip height.  I know this is not a tiny seedling anymore but you will be pleased with a smaller more manageable bush if you start is just a tad shorter.

I had a carries that I thought died in a freeze (sometime around 2010 or before).  I cut it back to about a foot and a half with the intention of uprooting the stump later.  I was surprised when I say it send out shoots.  You should see the tree today, the branching starts about a foot and a half off the ground and the tree is low and well balanced.  I wouldn't recommend you go that low, 3 feet works better.

edzone9

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2020, 04:43:23 PM »
Time to PUG...
Zone 10

BeBetter

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2020, 05:12:09 PM »
Time to PUG...

I know! Im going to as soon as we get a dry day. I'm trying to avoid doing it during wet weather.

simon_grow

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2020, 06:11:45 PM »
I’m no expert when it comes to growing Mangos trees in Florida but from my research, branches starting around 4 feet is beneficial for increasing air circulation and for allowing ample room to mow, mulch and fertilize. Allowing approximately 4 foot of trunk for the start of your scaffold branches also allows for any developing Mangos to be kept off the ground.

It would depend on the rootstock and grafted variety how much taller the scion grows but say you bark graft at 4 feet or you topped the tree at 4 feet and wait to graft the new shoots. The new growth may grow an additional 3 feet or so and if you’re lucky, it will bloom and set some fruit. As the fruit increases in size, the weight of the fruit may cause the branch to droop 2-3 feet or more. The fruiting branch will now be bent horizontally and the fruit will be off the ground by about 3 feet or so.

If the tree is very productive, you could have multiple fruit laden branches bent over and just off the ground several feet all around the tree, leaving you just enough room to work around the tree if you’re careful.

I was a big promoter of ultra low branching back when I first got started in Mangos but now I tell people to analyze the situation, be more dynamic and ask yourself how you see the final shape and size of their tree. If you are in an area with high bioburden or high humidity, the 3-4 foot rule works pretty good for Mangos.

Simon

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2020, 06:26:00 PM »
I probably wouldn’t try anything like this in Florida. This tree has 5 scaffold branches below 10 inches from the ground and has about 16 secondary branches coming off the scaffolds. There are small fruits hanging on the branches now. I will remove the newly set fruit but if I kept the fruit on the tree, they will be sitting on the ground as they approach maturity. This will potentially lead to insect and vermin damage.

As the tree ages however, the fruiting wood will move higher and higher up the canopy so in the long run, this technique may help keep fruit within easy reach as the scaffold branches and in turn the secondary and tertiary branches are lower.


Simon

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2020, 08:02:27 PM »
These two videos below have been shared on the forum.  One is from Florida and the other is Ghana. The pitch is the same though.  Shape your tree, start early, keep them small with a complex canopy.   They are also the source of the hip height recommendation for the initial cut (60 to 80 cm from the second video).

Right at the start
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlhF-YphevA

Almost the 9 minute mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh1AnvNa6mc

Simon does have a point with fruits dragging on the ground if you get heavy fruiting early.  I don't see this very much but I am sure it can and very likely does happen.  I am sure it can happen with almost any tree if you let the lateral branches get very long.

BeBetter

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2020, 08:31:02 PM »
Thank you all this is very helpful information. Mostly likely tomorrow I will have an opportunity to make the cut. Ill be sure to post a picture.
Luckily enough today while visiting my parents, I came across an old mango tree I planted in a 5 gal bucket. No idea what variety, I got the seed from a publix mango. Its comply root bound but I'm going to bring it home to practice some grafting cuts.

BeBetter

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2020, 01:41:35 PM »
The deed is done. I plan to keep this thread going as a tool for other newbies like myself. Ill try to provide updates and photos as they happen.





I also found an old mango tree I sprouted from a Publix seed about 4 years ago. It was severely root bound and infested with white flies. I treated and removed the flies and up potted it to a 10 gal grow bag for now. I plan to keep this tree going as practice for future grafting and training.







Once again, thank you everyone for the advice and tips.

Orkine

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2020, 02:14:36 PM »
Way to go!

On the root bound tree, did you prune the roots, cut the circling roots off?
In my experience, mango is very forgiving when it comes to chopping off circling roots.
I have a couple of vigorous trees that I thought were not going to make it.  They spent way too much time in a 3 gallon pot and when I removed and inspected the roots it was a mess, there was no way to plant it like that.  I did a serious cut taking off all the circling thick roots left as many small roots as I could.  I removed some of the top and planted in the ground.  In both cases, the tree grew well, put out new growth after a short wait and they have not looked back since.

BeBetter

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Re: Possible to top work this mango tree
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2020, 02:34:31 PM »
Way to go!

On the root bound tree, did you prune the roots, cut the circling roots off?

I didnt chop any of the roots but I did clear away the old dirt and try to "unbound" as much as I could. If i notice any problems I may pull it and chop some roots. The soil I used it pretty fluffy, mixture of peat moss, garden soil, and some compost. I hit it with an all around water soluble fert with some fish emulsion to hopefully get it moving. Time will tell.