Author Topic: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though  (Read 9880 times)

davidgarcia899

  • Marabu Groves - Redland, Florida
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1536
  • Marabu Groves
    • USA, Miami-Dade, 33187, 10b
    • View Profile
Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2014, 09:06:29 PM »
Oh okay, well yes I was asking about madruno, but also garcinia broadly
- David Antonio Garcia

fruitlovers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15883
  • www.fruitlovers.com
    • USA, Big Island, East Hawaii, Zone 13a
    • View Profile
    • Fruit Lover's Nursery
Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2014, 09:10:43 PM »
Like i said before, with garcinias i would only worry about having only one cherapu (G. prainiana) or one imbe (G. livingstoneii). I can't think of any other that isn't going to set fruit by itself. With the rheedias they are also 99% self pollinating. These are all slow growing species, but once they get to adult stage they really want to set fruits!
Oscar

davidgarcia899

  • Marabu Groves - Redland, Florida
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1536
  • Marabu Groves
    • USA, Miami-Dade, 33187, 10b
    • View Profile
Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2014, 09:19:16 PM »
Okay oscar then 1 madruno, 1 macrophylla and 1 garderiana are going in the grown. I hope I get fruit lol
- David Antonio Garcia

fruitlovers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15883
  • www.fruitlovers.com
    • USA, Big Island, East Hawaii, Zone 13a
    • View Profile
    • Fruit Lover's Nursery
Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2014, 11:56:53 PM »
Okay oscar then 1 madruno, 1 macrophylla and 1 garderiana are going in the grown. I hope I get fruit lol

Just looked it up. The one rheedia that Jim West claims is dioecious is magnifolia, not macrophylla. So you should be fine with the 3 that you mention.
Oscar

davidgarcia899

  • Marabu Groves - Redland, Florida
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1536
  • Marabu Groves
    • USA, Miami-Dade, 33187, 10b
    • View Profile
Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2014, 12:35:01 AM »
Thanks oscar! This has been help full
- David Antonio Garcia

KarenRei

  • Arctic Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1806
    • Reykjavík, Iceland
    • View Profile
Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2018, 06:56:27 PM »
So I have been searching through the archives on the details of Garcinia pollination, and the information in this thread and others had not really clicked with me.  For example, the notion that you could have a dioecious species - by the very definition, male and female flowers on separate plants - and not have to worry about having multiple plants.  After all, even if the females would be facultative agamosperms and produced apomictic seeds, what if you got a male plant?  A male plant won't produce any fruit.

After digging through some papers this evening, I think I understand what's going on - but correct me if I'm wrong.  The part that clued me in was in a paper on G. hombroniana:

Quote
Species with sporophytic agamospermy such as Garcinia commonly also undertake regular sexual reproduction (Richards, 1986, 1990). For these, it is to be expected that a fertile diploid status will prevail, as it does in G. hombroniana. The high interspecific frequency, and the lower intraspecific density of plants in tropical habitats may select for agamospermous reproduction as a consequence of poor pollination, particularly when, as in Garcinia, dioecy has also arisen, perhaps in response to heavy female reproductive loads. The present work suggests that pollination is inefficient in G. hombroniana even under optimal conditions, and more than half the seeds set will carry asexual proembryos. Relatively few males will result, and this will exacerbate problems of pollen travel.

In short...

 * There are separate male and female plants in most (but not all) Garcinia species (but there's a lot of variants to this pattern)
 * The males can't fruit, only produce pollen.  The females can reproduce sexually or asexually (cloning)
 * Since the clones are exact copies of the parent (female) plant, they're also female.  But if there's male pollen in the area, then flowers can be sexually fertilized, and roughly half of those seeds will be males.
 * Since sexual reproduction is preferred, and designed to be efficient, so long as there's at least *some* males in the area, there will always be a new generation of males produced.  However, if males are completely eliminated, the species can live on as cloning females only.
 * Some species already exist as such (e.g. G. mangostana)
 * Any agamospermic Garcinia species sufficiently removed from the wild via cultivation is likely to be a clonal female line.  Aka, if someone cultivates garcinias, and they only grow one tree or they cut down non-producing males, they will only pass on clonal females to other people who will in turn only pass on females to others.  So long as there are no males from the native range around, only females will be produced, and thus all trees will yield fruit.

In short, the question one should be asking about a species is not so much "is it dioecious?", but rather "Is it agamospermic?"  Most are dioecious, but also agamospermic.  The few that are dioecious but not agamospermic, however, will always require both male and female plants.  And for the rest, if you get species from the wild or otherwise grown near a male, there's a chance you might get a male, which will never bear fruit.

(How hermaphrodites fit into this picture isn't quite clear)

I also ran into some interesting information on the difficulty in distinguishing males from females at times because of "cryptic dioecy".  For example, G. brasiliensis male flowers have nonfunctional pistils, while its female flowers have nonfunctional stamens, and both produce nectar.  It was initially thought to be a sort of "self mimicry" to make sure that bees visited both sexes rather than just the ones that gave their preferred food sources, but bees apparently seem indifferent to the flower appearances when you alter them, so it's a bit of a mystery.

Anyway, this is what I came to when reading up this evening.  Is my take on the subject correct?  If not, please correct me!  :)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 08:02:03 AM by KarenRei »
Já, ég er að rækta suðrænar plöntur á Íslandi. Nei, ég er ekki klikkuð. Jæja, kannski...

stuartdaly88

  • Phytomaniac
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1186
  • Zone 9b/10a
    • South Africa, Gauteng
    • View Profile
Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2018, 01:38:20 AM »
What about what the cannabis growers refer to as "going hemmy) or is going hermaphrodite more likely with an annual than with a tree? I had thought that certain female Garcinias were able to produce some male flowers. If I recall Im sure Adam from flying Fox fruit's G.livingstonei had some male flowers on a female plant. SO is it not possible that in dioceous Garcinia sex can be a bit of a spectrum?
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau

KarenRei

  • Arctic Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1806
    • Reykjavík, Iceland
    • View Profile
Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2018, 03:45:16 AM »
The papers I ran into showed that there can be a spectrum, but it varies from species to species.  I haven't read any papers specifically about imbe.  In a paper on wild populations of G. indica, 37% were male, 8% hermaphrodite (yielding only small fruits with underdeveloped seeds), and 55% were female.  I don't recall them digging into what caused some to become hermaphrodites. Mind you, growers report that both male and female are required to fruit G. indica, so it's one of the exceptions to the rule.

I know nothing about cannabis, sorry!
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 12:25:59 PM by KarenRei »
Já, ég er að rækta suðrænar plöntur á Íslandi. Nei, ég er ekki klikkuð. Jæja, kannski...

Mango Stein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
  • Zone 7a
    • Schengen frontier
    • View Profile
Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2020, 08:18:06 AM »
I just wanted to add some information about nomenclature and taxonomy. In short, Garcinia madruno has a tubercular or spiky pericarp (rind, peel). If you have fruit that is just mildly bumpy or smooth, I would argue it is misidentified or a hybrid. The common name is charichuelo, which is an indigenous name. Some Colombian botanists in a publication used the common name charichuelo rugoso, to differentiate from G. macrophylla which they call charichuelo liso (smooth), but I don't see this as merited. The reason being, is that there are already unique indigenous names for G. macrophylla, e.g. pungara in Ecuador and ibacuru in Brazil.

So where does the name "madruno" or "madroño" come from? The Spanish brought it, because the fruit of G. madruno resembled the fruit Arbutus unedo, a species called Irish strawberry tree by English-speakers, or, el madroño by Spanish-speakers. It's a pretty antiquated borrowing in my opinion, though while we are stuck with the Latin binomial I see no reason to keep using it in common names. That becomes apparent when you consider how the name has mutated and been applied to other Garcinia/Rheedia that have completely smooth skin. Garcinia magnifolia is a good example, which has been called "large leaf madrono" or "Amazon madrono." It is not even from the Amazon, so discard that name. It's indigenous name (among the Embera people of Colombia and Panama) is bebasajo.

Further reading: http://www.botanicus.org/page/1458151




« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 08:50:42 AM by Mango Stein »
Eugenia luschnathiana = CURUIRI.    Talisia esculenta = PITOMBA
I do not recommend people deal with Fruit Lovers, Prisca Mariya or Fernando Malpartida

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk