Author Topic: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid  (Read 14768 times)

MarinFla

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Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« on: July 22, 2012, 11:30:31 PM »
I have been reading for hours on end many sources of information regarding the use of Imidacloprid  (Bayer Tree and Shrub, Admire-Pro etc) for the purpose of treating Citrus Leaf Miner. There is SO much CONFLICTING information BUT I did read information about the commercial uses of this product for fruit trees and vegetables grown in Florida. Despite what the label says I am well familiar that "off label use" doesn't always mean it will be harmful.
Can members with experience or knowledge about the use of this product on 'edibles' please share some insight. From what I walked away with is that it is reasonable to use this for a horrible infestation of leaf miner but it should be used when there are no blooms on the tree that could attract and harm bees, that the imidacloprid is not well absorbed into the fruit so it is just as safe as the fruit and veggies grown commercially here in Florida that are treated with Admire Pro and it should only be used as a soil drench and can be used for potted citrus trees ( but don't overdo it-use low concentrations. I am leaning towards using it because the miners are destroying my trees but feel a bit conflicted.
Thanks for all opinions and insights.
Marin
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 11:54:59 PM by MarinFla »

mangomandan

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2012, 12:15:08 AM »
I can't comment on the safety issue.

I've used it on a young citrus, for leaf miner, and on recently planted mango trees, for weevils.  I do think it helped with the miners, for 4-6 weeks. But the new flushes were brutally attacked.

It did not seem to help much with the weevils.

In other words, I don't think it actually lasts several months, as one of the labels seemed to indicate.

bsbullie

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2012, 12:29:48 AM »
I can't comment on the safety issue.

I've used it on a young citrus, for leaf miner, and on recently planted mango trees, for weevils.  I do think it helped with the miners, for 4-6 weeks. But the new flushes were brutally attacked.

It did not seem to help much with the weevils.

In other words, I don't think it actually lasts several months, as one of the labels seemed to indicate.
Did you spray or drench ?

Also, if used as a drench (for weevils or leaf miner), it does not prevent the pests from actually attacking the leaf.  It kills the pest after attacking the leaf and will kill the grubs (before they hatch into weevils) in the treated areas.  It will not prevent a weevil from coming from an adjacent property or untreated area from chewing the leaf, just SHOULD kill them afterwards.  Also, if drenching, do not apply more than twice per year.
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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2012, 12:36:17 AM »
Hi Rob
I haven't done anything yet. But I was planning to do a drench. In my readings I think I saw that it kills the larvae before it can damage the leaf and that it can only be used as a drench. If it could be used foliarly I am not aware but would love to know.

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2012, 12:53:59 AM »
Hi Rob
I haven't done anything yet. But I was planning to do a drench. In my readings I think I saw that it kills the larvae before it can damage the leaf and that it can only be used as a drench. If it could be used foliarly I am not aware but would love to know.
My response was to Dan, as he said he used it with poor results.

When used as a drench, it kills the larvae, or the grubs, in the soil and if as they feed on the roots.  As it is a systemic, it also will, or should, kill the weevils and leafminer that feed on the leaves.

Imidaloprid is used as a spray for other insects such as spiraling whitefly on palms and ant infestation in frond boots on palms.  If applied as a spray, it does not take on the systemic attributes but is a contact kill.  Foliar spraying can be used for leaf miner and weevils but it is very short lasting and not recommended (if applied as a foliar spray it would have no control of the root weevil in its grub stage...it would continue to hatch and you would have the weevils continuing to eat the leaves).
- Rob

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2012, 09:13:37 AM »
Have you heard or know if this imidacloprid product is truly being used commercially for growing citrus and vegetables in Florida?
If so, then we already have eaten produce previously treated with this product.
I have to do something as this citrus leaf miner is stunting my trees now.

PS I just found an informative article that is more recent:
http://www.crec.ifas.ufl.edu/extension/greening/PDF/Generalpestmanagementconsiderations.pdf
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 09:23:39 AM by MarinFla »

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2012, 09:48:39 AM »
I share the concerns expressed here (on edibles).  We have had citrus leaf miner only for the past 3 years, but the effects are terrible.  Seems to only affect the new growth on the second big flush in the fall, so spring growth is fine, trees can grow.  But a systemic that kills insects that chew leaves, but no residue in nectar or in fruit?  I won't use it.  Interestingly, the latest flea and tick preventative for dogs is a pill, once a month, that contains Imidacloprid.  Our young dog is on it, no flea issues.  So I am interested in others' opinions on use with edibles.

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2012, 10:03:37 AM »
Have you heard or know if this imidacloprid product is truly being used commercially for growing citrus and vegetables in Florida?
If so, then we already have eaten produce previously treated with this product.
I have to do something as this citrus leaf miner is stunting my trees now.

PS I just found an informative article that is more recent:
http://www.crec.ifas.ufl.edu/extension/greening/PDF/Generalpestmanagementconsiderations.pdf
Yes, it is used by most commercial citrus growers/suppliers (nurseries whom ultimately supply the retail nurseries with their inventory) as well as many retail nurseries (where many types of plants are treated with it, not just citrus).  Also, if you purchase non-organic fruits and veggies, chances are very great that you have already been eating foods that have been treated with it.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 10:05:27 AM by bsbullie »
- Rob

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2012, 10:07:13 AM »
I share the concerns expressed here (on edibles).  We have had citrus leaf miner only for the past 3 years, but the effects are terrible.  Seems to only affect the new growth on the second big flush in the fall, so spring growth is fine, trees can grow.  But a systemic that kills insects that chew leaves, but no residue in nectar or in fruit?  I won't use it.  Interestingly, the latest flea and tick preventative for dogs is a pill, once a month, that contains Imidacloprid.  Our young dog is on it, no flea issues.  So I am interested in others' opinions on use with edibles.
When used in its systemic form, yes, it will "spread" throughout the entire plant including the fruit. 
- Rob

KarenRei

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2012, 10:58:46 PM »
After reading the MSDS, I wouldn't be very concerned about it even being in food that you're eating.  The test results are quite good in terms of safety.  It should also be noted that while the French blamed Colony Collapse Disorder on Imidacloprid and banned it, CCD continued and got worse after the ban (they're now blaming it on asian hornets) 

That said, I won't use it.

That constraint is particular to my particular growing style (indoors in pots).  I've used it before and found that while it kills aphids and all sorts of other stuff, it doesn't kill spider mites, and worse, makes them poisonous to their predators.  Spider mites being a much bigger problem indoors than outdoors, it was a disaster. 

Just my two krónur  :)
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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2012, 02:55:40 AM »
After reading the MSDS, I wouldn't be very concerned about it even being in food that you're eating.  The test results are quite good in terms of safety.  It should also be noted that while the French blamed Colony Collapse Disorder on Imidacloprid and banned it, CCD continued and got worse after the ban (they're now blaming it on asian hornets) 

That said, I won't use it.

That constraint is particular to my particular growing style (indoors in pots).  I've used it before and found that while it kills aphids and all sorts of other stuff, it doesn't kill spider mites, and worse, makes them poisonous to their predators.  Spider mites being a much bigger problem indoors than outdoors, it was a disaster. 

Just my two krónur  :)

Hello all Imidaclopridites. Yes if you are eating supermarket foods about 80% of them have traces of imidaclorid. (We had a thread about this before and i posted a reference from USDA tests confirming this.) So is it safe for humans to consume? I think we're all being used as living hamster studies. You will find out very personally in 20-25 years what types of organs it deteriorate and what kinds of systemic disorders it causes. Then no doubt EPA will ban it and move on to the next chemical in the waiting line.
Oscar

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2012, 05:39:51 AM »
After reading the MSDS, I wouldn't be very concerned about it even being in food that you're eating.  The test results are quite good in terms of safety.  It should also be noted that while the French blamed Colony Collapse Disorder on Imidacloprid and banned it, CCD continued and got worse after the ban (they're now blaming it on asian hornets) 

That said, I won't use it.

That constraint is particular to my particular growing style (indoors in pots).  I've used it before and found that while it kills aphids and all sorts of other stuff, it doesn't kill spider mites, and worse, makes them poisonous to their predators.  Spider mites being a much bigger problem indoors than outdoors, it was a disaster. 

Just my two krónur  :)

Hello all Imidaclopridites. Yes if you are eating supermarket foods about 80% of them have traces of imidaclorid. (We had a thread about this before and i posted a reference from USDA tests confirming this.) So is it safe for humans to consume? I think we're all being used as living hamster studies. You will find out very personally in 20-25 years what types of organs it deteriorate and what kinds of systemic disorders it causes. Then no doubt EPA will ban it and move on to the next chemical in the waiting line.

Well, imidacloprid is a modified version of nicotine, so at least the base active chemical is something well tolerated by humans (as billions of nicotine-addicts worldwide attest...), in much higher doses.  Of course that's no guarantee it's perfectly safe, but that combined with the studies cited in the health evaluation lead to at least a fair degree of confidence.  Certainly much better than organophosphates (which are modified versions of nerve gasses like sarin and VX).  I categorically refuse to use organophosphates of any form on anything I plan to ever eat.  I find them too much of a risk of neurotoxicity over time; I don't trust even the "mild" ones like malathion (it's modified so that it's not an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor until it's broken down in a certain method by insects, and so at least ostensibly has a low human impact).

My main constraint is, just be ready for unexpected consequences when you tweak the ecosystem in your yard.  In particular, be aware of the spider mite issue and the potential predator poisoning issue (hopefully being outside spider mites won't be as much of a problem and you'll have some good reserves of predators who can reestablish, unlike me, who was using it on indoor plants).  On the upside, it's excellently effective (in my experience) on chewing and sucking insect pests.  It was amazing how well it killed the aphid infestation I was trying to get rid of.  Gets every last one of the buggers.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 05:55:15 AM by KarenRei »
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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2012, 06:36:43 AM »
[

Well, imidacloprid is a modified version of nicotine, so at least the base active chemical is something well tolerated by humans (as billions of nicotine-addicts worldwide attest...), in much higher doses.  Of course that's no guarantee it's perfectly safe, but that combined with the studies cited in the health evaluation lead to at least a fair degree of confidence.  Certainly much better than organophosphates (which are modified versions of nerve gasses like sarin and VX).  I categorically refuse to use organophosphates of any form on anything I plan to ever eat.  I find them too much of a risk of neurotoxicity over time; I don't trust even the "mild" ones like malathion (it's modified so that it's not an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor until it's broken down in a certain method by insects, and so at least ostensibly has a low human impact).

My main constraint is, just be ready for unexpected consequences when you tweak the ecosystem in your yard.  In particular, be aware of the spider mite issue and the potential predator poisoning issue (hopefully being outside spider mites won't be as much of a problem and you'll have some good reserves of predators who can reestablish, unlike me, who was using it on indoor plants).  On the upside, it's excellently effective (in my experience) on chewing and sucking insect pests.  It was amazing how well it killed the aphid infestation I was trying to get rid of.  Gets every last one of the buggers.

Maybe since imidaclopird is a modified type of nicotine it should be restricted to use in cigarettes? Cigarette smokers are willing to take big risks with their health, as millions of people with lung cancer are willing to attest. :-[ ::)
Oscar

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2012, 08:51:12 AM »
[

Well, imidacloprid is a modified version of nicotine, so at least the base active chemical is something well tolerated by humans (as billions of nicotine-addicts worldwide attest...), in much higher doses.  Of course that's no guarantee it's perfectly safe, but that combined with the studies cited in the health evaluation lead to at least a fair degree of confidence.  Certainly much better than organophosphates (which are modified versions of nerve gasses like sarin and VX).  I categorically refuse to use organophosphates of any form on anything I plan to ever eat.  I find them too much of a risk of neurotoxicity over time; I don't trust even the "mild" ones like malathion (it's modified so that it's not an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor until it's broken down in a certain method by insects, and so at least ostensibly has a low human impact).

My main constraint is, just be ready for unexpected consequences when you tweak the ecosystem in your yard.  In particular, be aware of the spider mite issue and the potential predator poisoning issue (hopefully being outside spider mites won't be as much of a problem and you'll have some good reserves of predators who can reestablish, unlike me, who was using it on indoor plants).  On the upside, it's excellently effective (in my experience) on chewing and sucking insect pests.  It was amazing how well it killed the aphid infestation I was trying to get rid of.  Gets every last one of the buggers.

Maybe since imidaclopird is a modified type of nicotine it should be restricted to use in cigarettes? Cigarette smokers are willing to take big risks with their health, as millions of people with lung cancer are willing to attest. :-[ ::)

To be fair, most of the cancer risk from smoking is from the smoke.  But I don't blame you for wanting to be careful about what bioactive substances you add to your plants.  Just also keep in mind that plants produce all sorts of bioactive substances on their own, and there's no guarantee that all of them will be good for you (witness the annonacin contraversy, for example)
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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2012, 06:03:36 PM »


To be fair, most of the cancer risk from smoking is from the smoke.  But I don't blame you for wanting to be careful about what bioactive substances you add to your plants.  Just also keep in mind that plants produce all sorts of bioactive substances on their own, and there's no guarantee that all of them will be good for you (witness the annonacin contraversy, for example)

People that chew tobacco also get cancer, just in a different place: throat and tongue cancers. The annonacin controvery is not much of a cnotraversy as far as i'm concerned. It mostly applies to people making tea from soursop leaves. As with any medicine you have to take the correct amount, too little it does nothing, too much and you are poisoned, correct amount can perhaps be healing. I feel a WHOLE lot safer eating any annona fruit than i do eating a mango.
Oscar

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2012, 07:11:34 PM »
Actually, smokeless tobacco is less cancer-risk than smoking.  The main carcinogens still in it are nitrosamines; the nitrosamine level directly correlates with the cancer risk.

Annonacin is in every part of annonas.  I say this as someone who lives and still eats annonas (just in moderation).  It's important to realize that just because something is natural doesn't mean that it's healthy or safe, or because something is artificial it's bad.  Insecticidal soaps are artificial.  Rotenone is natural.  Which pesticide would you rather eat?
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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2012, 07:43:01 PM »
Actually, smokeless tobacco is less cancer-risk than smoking.  The main carcinogens still in it are nitrosamines; the nitrosamine level directly correlates with the cancer risk.

Annonacin is in every part of annonas.  I say this as someone who lives and still eats annonas (just in moderation).  It's important to realize that just because something is natural doesn't mean that it's healthy or safe, or because something is artificial it's bad.  Insecticidal soaps are artificial.  Rotenone is natural.  Which pesticide would you rather eat?

I don't think anyone is arguing this part of your statement. It's well known that hundreds of plants are poisonous, and even lethal. Socrates was sentenced to death by drinking of hemlock. So what you are saying was well known thousands of years ago. As for the part of your statement about artificial products, what i'm saying is that most artificial products, like imidacloprid, are NOT properly tested long term. When you eat them you are taking a HUGE risk...rolling the dice. You don't know and most don't know if they are really safe.
Oscar

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2012, 08:38:05 PM »
Systemics are always a challenging debate.  I just put Imidacloprid Admire PRO on my 20 acres of avocados. I will be testing plant tissue and fruit residue over the next few months. In today's agriculture pesticides are a reality, you just have to used them according to label. Some plants or fruits retain it more than others. I do agree there is no long term research on some of these products. I eat what I grow and so does my family and friends that is why I test.

Some times mother nature is a lot smarter than us.
To give you an example with another product with no prior avocado history. Some of you know about Laurel Wilt and the deadly impact on avocados. The only product authorized is Tilt,  a formulation of prociconazole, since is the only product I decided to test it in case I have to use it. I injected the suggested  amount of ingredient, 4 weeks later the active ingredient on the vascular tissue was 14ppm, an excellent reading, and on the fruit NOTHING WAS DETECTED !!!!!!! I ALSO CONFIRMED THIS WITH ANOTHER LARGE GROWER WHO WAS ALSO TESTING.  You see, the stem of the avocado fruit filters all those ingredients. I will let you know in a couple of months if it does the same with Imidacloprid. 

Some more testing needs to be done and publish so you can decide what you eat. This type of testing should be done with all pesticides and fungicides on different agricultural products and published So the consumer knows which products are more susceptible to the pesticides used by the agricultural industry.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 09:00:04 PM by CTMIAMI »
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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2012, 09:08:59 PM »
Marin,

I bought a key lime tree about 8 months ago, and did not apply any imidacloprid or fungicide or neem oil at all.  It slowly succumbed to leaf miner "snail trails" and the leaves (especially new growth) began curling up.  A few days ago, the little bush looked so pathetic, that I threw it out and replaced it with a healthy new nursery specimen. 

Of course, this nursery specimen is initially treated with imadacloprid, so it has a few good months where pests will leave it alone.  However, I am now wondering whether to treat it with imadacloprid, or to try weekly or biweekly treatments of neem oil. 

Brad
Brad

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2012, 11:49:30 PM »
Marin,

I bought a key lime tree about 8 months ago, and did not apply any imidacloprid or fungicide or neem oil at all.  It slowly succumbed to leaf miner "snail trails" and the leaves (especially new growth) began curling up.  A few days ago, the little bush looked so pathetic, that I threw it out and replaced it with a healthy new nursery specimen. 

Of course, this nursery specimen is initially treated with imadacloprid, so it has a few good months where pests will leave it alone.  However, I am now wondering whether to treat it with imadacloprid, or to try weekly or biweekly treatments of neem oil. 

Brad
Neem is a losing battle...and not the best thing to use this time of year.  If going the Imidacloprid route, remember, only twice per year.  Look at the date on the certification tag that came on your tree as that should be the last date applied (if the date on the tag is more than 6 month ago, that tree has been sitting around at your retail nursery for a while).
- Rob

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2012, 12:17:21 AM »
Actually, smokeless tobacco is less cancer-risk than smoking.  The main carcinogens still in it are nitrosamines; the nitrosamine level directly correlates with the cancer risk.

Annonacin is in every part of annonas.  I say this as someone who lives and still eats annonas (just in moderation).  It's important to realize that just because something is natural doesn't mean that it's healthy or safe, or because something is artificial it's bad.  Insecticidal soaps are artificial.  Rotenone is natural.  Which pesticide would you rather eat?

I don't think anyone is arguing this part of your statement. It's well known that hundreds of plants are poisonous, and even lethal. Socrates was sentenced to death by drinking of hemlock. So what you are saying was well known thousands of years ago. As for the part of your statement about artificial products, what i'm saying is that most artificial products, like imidacloprid, are NOT properly tested long term. When you eat them you are taking a HUGE risk...rolling the dice. You don't know and most don't know if they are really safe.

Oscar,

What you also have to realize is that exactly the same is true for bioactive plant products.  No one has studied them, and should you contract some sort of illness, it cannot be said if your diet was or was not at fault.  The annonacin issue is a perfect case in point, it took a group of scientists to look at the problem and determine that the soursop tea was the culprit.

I am not saying that we should soak our fruit trees in anything and everything that comes along,  but people need to realize that the mantra "natural = good, synthetic = bad" is simply ridiculous.

To address the OPs original question, I will say that I am using imidacloprid drenches on my young citrus since they were getting too heavily damaged by leaf miners otherwise.  But I do not plan on any fruit harvests for at least two years.  Once they get to bearing age I will leave them alone and let the bugs "have their share."  This is not because I am really worried about any long term toxicity, but rather because I believe that it is a better way to farm.
Richard

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2012, 12:27:48 AM »
Richard, annonas have been eaten by humans for thousands of years without any ill effects. How long has imidacloprid been around? You can count the years on your hands. Look at the track record of pesticides considered by scientist to be "safe" in the past. So many believed safe and then removed from the market. Why is that?
In the manufacture of pesticides there are lots of vested interests in their being declared safe: manufacturers, stock holders, universities, even the government. And many remain on the market even after being proved to be unsafe.
Oscar

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2012, 01:11:17 AM »
Richard, annonas have been eaten by humans for thousands of years without any ill effects. How long has imidacloprid been around? You can count the years on your hands. Look at the track record of pesticides considered by scientist to be "safe" in the past. So many believed safe and then removed from the market. Why is that?

Oscar,
This is exactly my point. In the case of annonas, they have been consumed for thousands of years and when someone developed a Parkinsonian syndrome people simply said "that's life."  Until some one studied it there was no thought that it could be due to consuming soursop products.  Pesticides (and other man made compounds) are found to have negative attributes because they have been studied.  We live in a world of natural toxins and our bodies have evolved to deal with them (do you know how much methanol is in your body right now?). After all, the most toxic substances known to man are all natural products.


Let me restate, I firmly believe that we all need to minimize our use of pesticides and herbicides, both natural and man made.  They are not good for either the enviornment or us. Ideally, we need to keep our plants well fed and healthy and allow them to defend themselves naturally.  Unfortunately sometimes, especially when young, they may need a little help.  But to hear people make blanket statements that natural is good and man made is bad is just foolish (I am not attempting to imply that this is your opinion).


Richard

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2012, 01:41:15 AM »
Richard, annonas have been eaten by humans for thousands of years without any ill effects. How long has imidacloprid been around? You can count the years on your hands. Look at the track record of pesticides considered by scientist to be "safe" in the past. So many believed safe and then removed from the market. Why is that?

Oscar,
This is exactly my point. In the case of annonas, they have been consumed for thousands of years and when someone developed a Parkinsonian syndrome people simply said "that's life."  Until some one studied it there was no thought that it could be due to consuming soursop products.  Pesticides (and other man made compounds) are found to have negative attributes because they have been studied.  We live in a world of natural toxins and our bodies have evolved to deal with them (do you know how much methanol is in your body right now?). After all, the most toxic substances known to man are all natural products.


Let me restate, I firmly believe that we all need to minimize our use of pesticides and herbicides, both natural and man made.  They are not good for either the enviornment or us. Ideally, we need to keep our plants well fed and healthy and allow them to defend themselves naturally.  Unfortunately sometimes, especially when young, they may need a little help.  But to hear people make blanket statements that natural is good and man made is bad is just foolish (I am not attempting to imply that this is your opinion).


Richard

Richard, did you actually read this study? It never established a causal relationship between eating annonas and Parkinson's disease. The study was an experiment on mice. They were injected with high doses of synthesized annonacins. Not by being fed fruits. They were given very high doses of annonacin created in the lab, hundreds of times of the equivalent amount you would find naturally in a fruit. This study really had nothing to do with eating annonas, or even with soursops. It was a very flawed study and was not even accepted by the scientific community. The conclusions people drew from it after not reading the study were even more flawed. Also there is no proof at all that cultures that eat a lot of annonas have higher incidence of Parkingson's disease (or any other disease). For example, the same areas that ate cherimoyas in the past, high Andes, continue to do so to this day. But there is no Parkinson's there. If you look at incidence of Parkinson's disease the highest is in agricultural communities were a whole lot of pesticides, herbidicies, fungicides are used. It's very prevalent in small midwest towns in farmers that spray their crops regularly with chemicals. "The world's highest prevalence of Parkinson's Disease of any region is in Nebraska, U.S.A. with 329.3 people per 100,000 population.":

An interesting article about what communites have high prevalence of
Parkinsons:
http://viartis.net/parkinsons.disease/prevalence.htm

Substances known to cause Parkinson's:
http://www.viartis.net/parkinsons.disease/toxic.causes.htm
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 01:57:37 AM by fruitlovers »
Oscar

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2012, 07:05:01 AM »
Richard, annonas have been eaten by humans for thousands of years without any ill effects. How long has imidacloprid been around? You can count the years on your hands. Look at the track record of pesticides considered by scientist to be "safe" in the past. So many believed safe and then removed from the market. Why is that?

Oscar,
This is exactly my point. In the case of annonas, they have been consumed for thousands of years and when someone developed a Parkinsonian syndrome people simply said "that's life."  Until some one studied it there was no thought that it could be due to consuming soursop products.  Pesticides (and other man made compounds) are found to have negative attributes because they have been studied.  We live in a world of natural toxins and our bodies have evolved to deal with them (do you know how much methanol is in your body right now?). After all, the most toxic substances known to man are all natural products.


Let me restate, I firmly believe that we all need to minimize our use of pesticides and herbicides, both natural and man made.  They are not good for either the enviornment or us. Ideally, we need to keep our plants well fed and healthy and allow them to defend themselves naturally.  Unfortunately sometimes, especially when young, they may need a little help.  But to hear people make blanket statements that natural is good and man made is bad is just foolish (I am not attempting to imply that this is your opinion).


Richard

Richard, did you actually read this study? It never established a causal relationship between eating annonas and Parkinson's disease. The study was an experiment on mice. They were injected with high doses of synthesized annonacins. Not by being fed fruits. They were given very high doses of annonacin created in the lab, hundreds of times of the equivalent amount you would find naturally in a fruit. This study really had nothing to do with eating annonas, or even with soursops. It was a very flawed study and was not even accepted by the scientific community. The conclusions people drew from it after not reading the study were even more flawed. Also there is no proof at all that cultures that eat a lot of annonas have higher incidence of Parkingson's disease (or any other disease). For example, the same areas that ate cherimoyas in the past, high Andes, continue to do so to this day. But there is no Parkinson's there. If you look at incidence of Parkinson's disease the highest is in agricultural communities were a whole lot of pesticides, herbidicies, fungicides are used. It's very prevalent in small midwest towns in farmers that spray their crops regularly with chemicals. "The world's highest prevalence of Parkinson's Disease of any region is in Nebraska, U.S.A. with 329.3 people per 100,000 population.":

An interesting article about what communites have high prevalence of
Parkinsons:
http://viartis.net/parkinsons.disease/prevalence.htm

Substances known to cause Parkinson's:
http://www.viartis.net/parkinsons.disease/toxic.causes.htm

That's not accurate.

1) What's being discussed isn't just Parkinson's in general, but a very specific atypical form of Parkinson's which is rare outside areas where annonas are consumed.  It's this form that is linked to annonacin.
2) There has not been just one study; there've been a number, and they all track different lines of evidence.  There's now a direct chemical basis for why the chemical should induce aptosis in dopamine-producing brain cells (the same method it does in certain cancer cells), direct laboratory evidence of applying annonacin to cultures of such cells causes them to die, direct evidence in lab animals that the sort of blood levels of annonacin found if you consume one soursop a day (known from the earlier anti-cancer studies) causes the disease, and statistical human population studies that correlate the disease to annona consumption levels, to an astonishing degere (while only 60% of islanders conumed the fruit and 43% the tea, 97% of those with the condition consumed the fruit and 83% the tea).  What more do you need?
3) Annonacin is not just in the tea in dangerous levels, and it's not just in guanabana

These "downer" results weren't reached on purpose by people looking to damn annonas, by the way.  The earlier research on annonacin was its potential use as an anti-cancer drug.  The neurotoxicity was discovered as a side effect, and hence more research was called for.  Basically, it works "too well".  It doesn't only cause cancerous cells to die, but also some types of cells that you really *don't* want to die.

And again, I'll reiterate, I still eat annonas (even though Parkinsons' runs in my family!) - just in moderation.  It's the dose that makes the poison**.  And I'm not going to pretend that something I enjoy doesn't carry risks simply because I enjoy it.  And my hope is that some day people will find ways to effectively breed it out of our favorite varieties or at least get the level down to irrelevant quantities.  I know at the very least this is already being done with pawpaw, and there are low-annonacin cultivars out there like "sunflower".


** - Now, some poisons are such that any amount consumed is damage that doesn't go away, and if you accumulate enough, you have big irreversible problems.  Annonacin doesn't seem to be this way.  The lab studies show that neuron cells stop dying and can recover whenever there's not annonacin in the body for a length of time, and the population studies show that young people with the atypical parkinsons whos top consuming the fruit can have their symptoms decline or go away completely.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 07:23:39 AM by KarenRei »
Já, ég er að rækta suðrænar plöntur á Íslandi. Nei, ég er ekki klikkuð. Jæja, kannski...

stressbaby

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2012, 08:30:45 AM »
That's not accurate.

1) What's being discussed isn't just Parkinson's in general, but a very specific atypical form of Parkinson's which is rare outside areas where annonas are consumed.  It's this form that is linked to annonacin.
2) There has not been just one study; there've been a number, and they all track different lines of evidence.  There's now a direct chemical basis for why the chemical should induce aptosis in dopamine-producing brain cells (the same method it does in certain cancer cells), direct laboratory evidence of applying annonacin to cultures of such cells causes them to die, direct evidence in lab animals that the sort of blood levels of annonacin found if you consume one soursop a day (known from the earlier anti-cancer studies) causes the disease, and statistical human population studies that correlate the disease to annona consumption levels, to an astonishing degere (while only 60% of islanders conumed the fruit and 43% the tea, 97% of those with the condition consumed the fruit and 83% the tea).  What more do you need?
3) Annonacin is not just in the tea in dangerous levels, and it's not just in guanabana

These "downer" results weren't reached on purpose by people looking to damn annonas, by the way.  The earlier research on annonacin was its potential use as an anti-cancer drug.  The neurotoxicity was discovered as a side effect, and hence more research was called for.  Basically, it works "too well".  It doesn't only cause cancerous cells to die, but also some types of cells that you really *don't* want to die.

And again, I'll reiterate, I still eat annonas (even though Parkinsons' runs in my family!) - just in moderation.  It's the dose that makes the poison**.  And I'm not going to pretend that something I enjoy doesn't carry risks simply because I enjoy it.  And my hope is that some day people will find ways to effectively breed it out of our favorite varieties or at least get the level down to irrelevant quantities.  I know at the very least this is already being done with pawpaw, and there are low-annonacin cultivars out there like "sunflower".


** - Now, some poisons are such that any amount consumed is damage that doesn't go away, and if you accumulate enough, you have big irreversible problems.  Annonacin doesn't seem to be this way.  The lab studies show that neuron cells stop dying and can recover whenever there's not annonacin in the body for a length of time, and the population studies show that young people with the atypical parkinsons whos top consuming the fruit can have their symptoms decline or go away completely.

I LOVE a well referenced post.

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2012, 08:39:07 AM »
I think in this debate people are not stating the obvious and are arguing at tangents.The subject insecticide is a neonicotenoid so it targets the nephritic D loop of insects so has less direct impact on vertebrate than the organophosphates they largely replaced.The are thus targetted systemics.Thats how it started anyway until it was found concentrations are through the roof in pollen and kill bees and other insect pollinators at extraordinarily low concentrations.You could wipe out a forest full of bees with a drop.This class of pesticide may have caused the worldwide decline of bees and other pollinators even many miles from target crops.I reckon ingesting even small amounts of organophosphates and many systems like is typically on our bought fruit is bad news.
Rotenone is particularly bad for aquatic organisms and moist membranes but it breaks down pretty well and fairly quickly.
I think natural poisons usually break down faster but being natural is no comment on toxicity.If you wanted to screw up your endocrine system with persistent problems you would be better off going for a synthetic poison option.
I think the moral of the story is avoid pesticides if you can and use them sparingly and according to the label if you have to.You don't want to defeat the purpose of growing your own food.

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Re: Use or Not? I have conflicted feelings about Imidacloprid
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2012, 01:09:25 PM »
Richard, annonas have been eaten by humans for thousands of years without any ill effects. How long has imidacloprid been around? You can count the years on your hands. Look at the track record of pesticides considered by scientist to be "safe" in the past. So many believed safe and then removed from the market. Why is that?

Oscar,
This is exactly my point. In the case of annonas, they have been consumed for thousands of years and when someone developed a Parkinsonian syndrome people simply said "that's life."  Until some one studied it there was no thought that it could be due to consuming soursop products.  Pesticides (and other man made compounds) are found to have negative attributes because they have been studied.  We live in a world of natural toxins and our bodies have evolved to deal with them (do you know how much methanol is in your body right now?). After all, the most toxic substances known to man are all natural products.


Let me restate, I firmly believe that we all need to minimize our use of pesticides and herbicides, both natural and man made.  They are not good for either the enviornment or us. Ideally, we need to keep our plants well fed and healthy and allow them to defend themselves naturally.  Unfortunately sometimes, especially when young, they may need a little help.  But to hear people make blanket statements that natural is good and man made is bad is just foolish (I am not attempting to imply that this is your opinion).


Richard

Richard, did you actually read this study? It never established a causal relationship between eating annonas and Parkinson's disease. The study was an experiment on mice. They were injected with high doses of synthesized annonacins. Not by being fed fruits. They were given very high doses of annonacin created in the lab, hundreds of times of the equivalent amount you would find naturally in a fruit. This study really had nothing to do with eating annonas, or even with soursops. It was a very flawed study and was not even accepted by the scientific community. The conclusions people drew from it after not reading the study were even more flawed. Also there is no proof at all that cultures that eat a lot of annonas have higher incidence of Parkingson's disease (or any other disease). For example, the same areas that ate cherimoyas in the past, high Andes, continue to do so to this day. But there is no Parkinson's there. If you look at incidence of Parkinson's disease the highest is in agricultural communities were a whole lot of pesticides, herbidicies, fungicides are used. It's very prevalent in small midwest towns in farmers that spray their crops regularly with chemicals. "The world's highest prevalence of Parkinson's Disease of any region is in Nebraska, U.S.A. with 329.3 people per 100,000 population.":

An interesting article about what communites have high prevalence of
Parkinsons:
http://viartis.net/parkinsons.disease/prevalence.htm

Substances known to cause Parkinson's:
http://www.viartis.net/parkinsons.disease/toxic.causes.htm

Oscar,

This is getting way off topic, and Karen did a great job of summarizing the Annonacin topic, but I need to make two more points.  First, no one said all of the annonas cause an atypical Parkinsonian syndrome, although they all have some level of the annonacins.  Second, yes I read the study(s), as there are multiple articles in print that address this issue.  They are all very high quality research papers published in respected journals that, when taken as a whole, build a very strong case that the consumption of annonacins from soursop  leads to the development of a Parkinsonian like condition.  This work has not only been accepted by the scientific community, it has been embraced and expanded upon by numerous research groups around the world.  If you  doubt my ability to make such a statement, please look at this link http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Reid%20RT 

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citrus leaf miners -- parasitic wasps
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2012, 10:20:24 AM »
Regarding citrus leaf miners,  a few years ago parasitic wasps were released in Florida, and that seemed to reduce the problem.

Does anyone know the status of this program?  Was it considered a success, or failure?

In my neighborhood the citrus trees died out in recent years, and I think I was the first to replant. My lime tree is continually devastated by the miners, so I assume the wasps are no longer present.