Author Topic: The Possible Extra-Caribbean Origin of the Julie Mango  (Read 8966 times)

murahilin

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The Possible Extra-Caribbean Origin of the Julie Mango
« on: January 14, 2012, 09:28:47 PM »
Yes, you heard me right. I think the Julie mango may not have originated in the Caribbean. Based on research and speculation, I think it is a possibility that it originated from Réunion, a French island in the Indian Ocean. If not asexually propagated from a tree from Réunion, then I think it may have come from a seedling from a tree there. I will include links to my sources at the end of this post.

For a while I've been searching the internet and books for which Caribbean island was the origin of the Julie mango and always found conflicting answers. Many of the older and more authoritative books and articles state Trinidad and being the origin (Julia Morton was one of those sources). Recently, many sources have claimed that it was from Jamaica. I think those claims are erroneous due to those claims being more recent and not citing to any authority but instead due to it being popular in Jamaica.

I then found a research article that was done on the DNA analysis of mangos that stated Réunion being the origin of the Julie. I checked the references for that article and it pointed to an article from the 1960s by Simon E Malo from TREC that it was from Réunion. That is not enough evidence so I was hoping that there would be conclusive DNA evidence. I did not find anything conclusive but I found another article that had somewhat more detail. Researchers at CIRAD noted that they did not find the Julie mango in Réunion even after testing dozens of mangos there but even though they are clearly different, they share enough alleles to regroup with their set of markers. I am not exactly clear on what that means.

I will continue to update and refine this post as I organize and gather more information.

Sources:
http://www.fshs.org/Proceedings/Password%20Protected/1970%20Vol.%2083/357-362%20%28MALO%29.pdf
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/morton/mango_ars.html
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/23617940/Genetic-diversity-of-Carribbean-mangoes-%28Mangifera-indica-L
http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/32/6/1105.full.pdf
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 09:36:27 PM by murahilin »

Tropicalgrower89

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Re: The Possible Extra-Caribbean Origin of the Julie Mango
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2012, 10:53:12 PM »
"Researchers at CIRAD noted that they did not find the Julie mango in Réunion even after testing dozens of mangos there but even though they are clearly different, they share enough alleles to regroup with their set of markers. I am not exactly clear on what that means."



Alleles and markers have to do with Genetics.  Julie is probably a "seed" from Reunion island that was a sexual cross between two types of mangoes on Reunion. What I'm thinking is that the original Julie is technically from Reunion, but grown somewhere else. In that case, Reunion island won't have an actual Julie tree.
That's how I understood their research comments based on sharing alleles and regrouping them (Genetic code).


« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 10:56:09 PM by Tropicalgrower89 »
Alexi

murahilin

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Re: The Possible Extra-Caribbean Origin of the Julie Mango
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2012, 11:17:26 PM »
Tropicalgrower89,
I understand how alleles work but what was unclear to me was how was it regrouped. The article did not say how they regrouped it and I think that would clear up a lot of info. I would like to know how closely it was related to the Reunion mangos or if the alleles were shared with many other mangos of Indian origin.

Tropicalgrower89

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Re: The Possible Extra-Caribbean Origin of the Julie Mango
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2012, 11:42:10 PM »
oh ok. I see what you mean now about the regrouping part. That part is unclear.
Alexi

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Re: The Possible Extra-Caribbean Origin of the Julie Mango
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2012, 10:37:51 AM »
I have it from an absolutley indisputable source that Julie originated in Jamaica.  I am confident that once you do some further research, you will come to understand why I say that. Stay tuned, I'll be posting the irrefutable evidence of my assertion as soon as the Jamaican guy I asked about this sends the materials to me.

Harry
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phantomcrab

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Re: The Possible Extra-Caribbean Origin of the Julie Mango
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2012, 07:44:05 PM »
Regroup means to reorganize. Julie evidently has some if not all Reunion Island parentage but that in itself says nothing about where it first originated since it's monoembryonic. A seed may have been transported from Reunion and planted in the West Indies which would make the West Indies Julie's point of origin. Who knows? One of the links shows a picture of a gel in which Julie is shown to be markedly different from some comparison cultivars. ::)

http://books.google.com/books?id=74hdQoEc8XsC&pg=PA198&lpg=PA198&dq=alleles+regroup&source=bl&ots=CihuJ3X8Ws&sig=JKgmm-3TNuGDCBoeFmG9iNQQoqY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=h5YgT6qSLIzxggfFocHnCA&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=alleles%20regroup&f=false
Richard

fruitlovers

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Re: The Possible Extra-Caribbean Origin of the Julie Mango
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2012, 01:37:38 AM »
Murahilin, curious as to why it's so important to you where Julie mango originated? Ok, let us know when you find conclusive evidence.
From the little research i've done i think it's hard to find such conclusive evidence, as plant material was carried freely between places and back again. Because mangos in Reunion have some DNA similarity doesn't necessarily mean they originated there. May just mean some of its parentage may have come from there. I don't think DNA alone can conclusively prove parentage, only relationship. You still need historical records + DNA thumbprints.
I suppose it's possible that mango seeds traveled from Africa during times of slave trade to Jamaica. But Reunion is off the wrong coast. So Julie would have to have been dispersed through Africa towards west coast to have been carried to Jamaica.
Oscar
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murahilin

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Re: The Possible Extra-Caribbean Origin of the Julie Mango
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2012, 10:51:12 AM »
Murahilin, curious as to why it's so important to you where Julie mango originated? Ok, let us know when you find conclusive evidence.
From the little research i've done i think it's hard to find such conclusive evidence, as plant material was carried freely between places and back again. Because mangos in Reunion have some DNA similarity doesn't necessarily mean they originated there. May just mean some of its parentage may have come from there. I don't think DNA alone can conclusively prove parentage, only relationship. You still need historical records + DNA thumbprints.
I suppose it's possible that mango seeds traveled from Africa during times of slave trade to Jamaica. But Reunion is off the wrong coast. So Julie would have to have been dispersed through Africa towards west coast to have been carried to Jamaica.
Oscar

Oscar,
My only reason is because I hate the idea of not knowing. There has to be an answer, and I am sure there is record of it somewhere. I don't know if I will ever find conclusive evidence, but I will continue to search.
I agree that it may not have originated in Reunion, but that one source from the 1960's saying that it did is interesting. I am going to try and get in contact with the author of that article (I was told he is still alive) and see if he remembers why he thinks that Julie originated in Reunion.
I doubt it came through Africa though for the same reasons you mentioned. I think it is more likely that the Julie or its ancestor mangos went directly from Reunion to one of the French Caribbean Islands and then either the Julie grew there or the Julie's ancestors further spread into the Caribbean and finally created the Julie in Trinidad. I haven't found any evidence supporting Jamaica as the origin yet though. Everything seems to point to either Trinidad or Reunion.

Another interesting side note, Trinidad had a fruiting mangosteen in 1875.

samuel

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Re: The Possible Extra-Caribbean Origin of the Julie Mango
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2012, 03:01:35 PM »
Indeed murahilin i got to get the taste of the mango while i was living in Martinique enjoying the delightful flavor of the Julie mangos. Coming to Reunion i did look after some mango julie trees and it is only about 6 months ago i got to find a fruiting one around here. It was brought from Martinique precisely by a guy who has lived over there and moved to Reunion. Because he was keen on this mango he wanted to take it to its new home.

For info, It is pretty common here to find people who have lived in the French West Indies and vice versa. Both territories are French overseas department and when people try one they feel like go and discover the other ones...

Unfortunately, this julie mango tree is not really in good health because it was not planted in good conditions (not enough place and big rocks all round). I may still try to get some budwood from it next season unless i get some from outside.

The local variety that is the equivalent of Julie in the west indies in terms of popularity is called the 'José'. It is very sweet, non fibrous and has a good taste. More than half of the mango orchards here are planted with this variety. Cogshall has more recently become the second one.
Samuel
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phantomcrab

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Re: The Possible Extra-Caribbean Origin of the Julie Mango
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2012, 12:33:52 PM »
Has anybody followed up on evidence of where the Julie mango originated?
I'm betting on the Caribbean with a seed originating from Reunion Island.
Richard

murahilin

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Re: The Possible Extra-Caribbean Origin of the Julie Mango
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2012, 12:56:08 PM »
Has anybody followed up on evidence of where the Julie mango originated?
I'm betting on the Caribbean with a seed originating from Reunion Island.

As with everything else, I lost interest pretty quickly. I may feel the need to find out the answer to the question once more and continue my search. Don't know when that will happen though.

I think that a seed or seedling from Reunion is the most likely origin. I am still holding out hope that it came from a grafted tree from Reunion.

bradflorida

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Re: The Possible Extra-Caribbean Origin of the Julie Mango
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2012, 11:37:17 PM »
Murahilin - i was starting to enjoy the mystery.  Did you try to contact the author of the 1960s article?  That might be telling

Brad
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murahilin

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Re: The Possible Extra-Caribbean Origin of the Julie Mango
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2012, 03:36:09 PM »
Murahilin - i was starting to enjoy the mystery.  Did you try to contact the author of the 1960s article?  That might be telling

Brad

I was pointed in the direction of how to get in contact with him. That was in January. I probably should try to get in contact with him to find out. He's been retired for a while now though. I wonder if he'll remember even though its been around 50 years since the article was written.

PEDIGREE ANALYSIS OF FLORIDA MANGO CULTIVARS

http://www.fshs.org/Proceedings/Password%20Protected/2005%20v.%20118/118/192-197.pdf

I wish that analysis had some info about the mystery of the Julie origins.

phantomcrab

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Re: The Possible Extra-Caribbean Origin of the Julie Mango
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2013, 08:05:47 AM »
I am still waiting to hear the outcome of this discussion...
 ;)
Richard

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Re: The Possible Extra-Caribbean Origin of the Julie Mango
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2013, 08:58:15 AM »
Ok.....I took a formal poll of every Jamaican I knew and the answer was clear.  Julie was a Jamaican creation.  End of discussion. These same folk also told me that the Jamaican sprinting team will post the 10 highest times in the world for the 100 dash.  The Gold, Silver and Bronze metals would all go to Jamaicans at the next and every summer Olympics in the near future.  And, most importantly, this will be accomplished without the use of any performance enhancing drugs.  Don't know about you, but I believe them all the way around.  Juile is Jamaican....now stop all this useless mental energy waste.
Harry
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Future

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Re: The Possible Extra-Caribbean Origin of the Julie Mango
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2018, 06:07:16 PM »
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228674791_Genetic_diversity_of_Caribbean_mangoes_Mangifera_indica_L_using_microsatellite_markers

"The second cluster groups the other Caribbean accessions, including Julie and Reine Amélie varieties with a sub-group of the majority of the accessions from La Réunion and one cultivar from Trinidad. This indicates that the introduction route from the former French possessions of the Indian Ocean and the French West Indies quoted by Kostermans and Bompard (1993) could have been the origin of some of the best Caribbean cultivars."


Future

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Re: The Possible Extra-Caribbean Origin of the Julie Mango
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2018, 08:08:04 PM »
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.827.7105&rep=rep1&type=pdf

This confirms there is a African Julie grafted as early as 1890 but distinct from the Caribbean one.