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Messages - SoCal2warm

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: keraji mandarin
« on: May 16, 2018, 05:47:30 PM »
here's a keraji seedling

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: May 15, 2018, 08:39:18 PM »
The Satsuma is beginning to put on new growth.

Two weeks ago I had to open up the enclosure, it was getting up to 92 degrees (F) in there when the sun came out.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Growing lemons from seed?
« on: May 12, 2018, 08:11:40 PM »
Fruit trees grown from seed usually take longer to begin producing fruit than those that are grafted.
This is because inducing a slight degree of incompatibility diverts energy from tree growth towards fruit production early on. (Probably because the nutrient to energy ratio for producing fruit is different than growing branches)

Probably early morning or evening, when it's not going to be too wet. Probably better not to do it on a windy day also.
I wouldn't do it in the morning if you're expecting that day to be very hot and very dry low humidity, which is often the case in some climates. However, in Germany, the issue would be more cold, so all this wouldn't apply. If it's outside, you may want to wait until May to pollinate (not that you may have much choice because they will flower when they flower). So in Germany it might be better to try it in the late morning.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Marsh Grapefruit- Taste - Time
« on: May 08, 2018, 02:14:12 AM »
Of course Duncan is the gold standard for grapefruit flavor.

Are medica and Ichangensis really the same?  I thought medica was the citron which was famous in the Middle East and not cold hardy. Ichangensis is cold hardy. What's up?
You are right. Citron ranks down there as one of the least cold hardy citrus species, with the exception of limes and C. micrantha from which limes are descended from. Citron is even less cold hardy than regular lemons, which in turn are a bit less hardy than orange.
And C. ichangensis is the most cold hardy known citrus species, besides from trifoliate.

Despite the vast difference in cold hardiness, citron shares a closer evolutionary similarity to C. ichangensis than to C. reticulata (mandarin orange). This results in a problem arising in DNA marker analysis, because apparently citron and C. ichangensis share some markers that C. reticulata does not, while C. maxima has its own markers that are unique enough to differentiate it. That's not to say a DNA marker analysis can't easily differentiate between citron and C. ichangensis, but the algorithm they employed, the same one to look at all these diverse citrus varieties, failed to do that.

It was because of the particular markers they were selecting for. They were not making much effort to try to differentiate C. medica and C. ichangensis.

If I remember correctly, the authors even made a note in the publication that they had intentionally decided to discard some markers because they were causing another problem in their data analysis, and speculated that doing this might have been what suppressed the differentation between C. medica and C. ichangensis.

Mandarin and orange peel are sometimes used in Chinese cuisine, typically tossed in a stir fry.
The peel is what contains most of the oils and aroma, so for adding flavor the peel can be more useful than the fruit itself.

Many cake and muffin recipes call for adding lemon zest.

I'm pretty sure lychees grow in zone 9b in China. The issue is heat. In northern CA they're not going to get enough heat for a long enough duration throughout the year. Not only would that make them slower growing, but the fruits are not likely to ripen.

(for those in southern CA, too much heat isn't a good thing either, in that drier climate with less humidity full sun in the heat can make the tree more prone to drying out, which also greatly slows growth)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Japanese kunenbo
« on: April 27, 2018, 02:47:34 PM »
There are mandarins in Japan that can grow in areas that receive a light snow.

I'm not sure what type of mandarin it is being cut open in that video. Possibly Kara mandarin I would guess (Kara actually originated form a cross between King and Satsuma at the UCR Citrus Research Center).

Cold Hardy Citrus / Japanese kunenbo
« on: April 26, 2018, 09:24:52 PM »
Kunenbo ( 九年母 ) translates from Japanese as "nine year mother" or "ninth century mother". The latter would make sense if the fruit had been imported from China and/or first gained prominence in Japan in the Ninth Century, and then later became the "mother" of several other important varieties. Four hundred years ago kunenbo used to be one of the most popular citrus fruit varieties in Japan, but it was later surpassed by unshiu mikan (Satsuma) , which actually came about from a hybrid between kishu and kunenbo. Satsuma probably inherits its cold hardiness and aroma from kunenbo. (Kishu is an excellent tasting mandarin as well and has loose skin that easily comes right off) Satsuma has a lot fewer seeds than kunenbo.

As you can see from the pictures, kunenbo (at least this particular variety of it) looks like a delicious fruit, the inside almost looks kind of tangelo or orange-like, and the fruits are definitely on the big side for a mandarin.

As far as flavor goes, one Japanese blog had this to say: "It seems to have a thick portion of skin and it has a scent of turpentine oil on the rind, but I do not particularly care about the scent of the oil, but on the contrary the mandarin fragrance and the fruit's taste of sour and sweetness is refreshing and what I thought it might be good for scenting it. Although there is taste and sweetness, there is also a moderate sour taste, which is very juicy and delicious."

The skin of mandarinquat is edible, although it isn't as good as kumquat.

You probably wouldn't consider this edible in the same sense as kumquats but the skin from the rinds of citron are very good in baked goods, or candied.

Kuganskaya blooming

I may be completely wrong about this, but I believe the fragrange of the blossoms smells a little different from those of Orange quince. It smells just a little bit in the direction of how pear blossoms smell (which don't really smell the best but it's a distinctive smell). This is complete conjecture here but this observation would support a theory that some of these Russian quinces may have been brought about through interspecies hybridization (maybe not the immediate prior generation but a few generations back).

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: What citrus is this?
« on: April 24, 2018, 10:46:26 PM »
Does the tree appear to have been grafted? Do citrus grow wild easily where you are? It's possible you may have some sort of hybrid (which could be a unique new variety).

Is it possible it could be Calamondin? If you're in a more tropical climate the skin would remain green.


I'd also encorage you to look into less common rarer varieties for many different fruits, particularly plum and gooseberry. There can be a big difference between different varieties, and having a rare variety can be sort of similar to having an exotic species.

I have just looked up the Chinese Bayberry and all sites I've come across mention it only being cold-hardy down to zone 10?

It can definitely grow in zone 9, and probably in zone 8.

Read the post here:
Myrica Rubra, page 2

Myrica rubra's common names include Yangmei in China, Yamamomo in Japan, Red Bayberry, Chinese Bayberry, and Yumberry.  According to the CRFG Fruit Gardener March & April 2008 issue, the fruit is called yang-mei in China, which means "poplar-plum".  A garden products importer from Indiana named Charles Stenftenagel was visiting a friend in Shanghai who bottled Myrica rubra juice.  The way the people pronounced yang-mei in their dialect was "yang-mee", which Mr. Stenftenagel thought sounded like "yummy" and in 2003 they started calling it "Yumberry" because they though that would be a catchy name to help them commercialize it.

The Chinese have harvested yang-mei from the wild for 7000 years and cultivated the trees for at least 2000 years.  It is a very popular fruit in China, which has 865,000 acres in production.  For comparison, the United States has about 432,000 acres of apples, about 856,000 of citrus trees, and 1,044,000 of grapes, the only American fruit crop with greater acreage.

It is a dioecious tree with male and female flowers on separate plants.  However some female trees will produce male flowers.  The tree can grow in poor soils because of its ability to fix nitrogen.  It prefers acid soil and enjoys a similar climatic range as citrus.  It is said that it is not grown in Hawaii because it does require a bit of chill, although in China there is a wide range of adaptation, including tropical varieties on Hainan, a large island in the south.  Recommended for Zones 8-10, can tolerate temperatures down to 16F.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: cold hardy Citrus for zone 7b?
« on: April 23, 2018, 09:35:37 PM »
This is what Brite Leaf Citrus Nursery says:

"If you live in USDA Hardiness Zone 8, you may be able to, depending on your location and the variety you choose, plant your citrus tree outside. However, you will need to protect your tree from frost and freezing during extreme cold periods.
If you live in USDA Zone 7 or North, for survival of your tree, we strongly recommend you plant in a movable container which will allow you to move your citrus tree indoors during the winter."

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: An unplanned visit to Mimosa Anaheim.
« on: April 23, 2018, 08:34:52 PM »
It's a cool nursery with a lot of space to explore, and the Vietnamese man who was working there was very nice, even though his English wasn't good. Their prices are a little high, but all their plants are large size.

They have pretty good selection of variety too. If you have lots of money to spend and want to buy a tropical fruit tree that's already very large in size, this may be the place to go.

As for the high prices, keep in mind the rent for the land space is probably very high and these nurseries are growing their plants on-site, and many of these plants are not the fastest growing, so take a lot of time investment to grow and propagate. A lot of other long-time nurseries in the region have gone out of business because the land underneath them became too valuable.

Anyway, I think the Vietnamese owner puts a lot of care into the trees.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Clemyuz 3-3, ten degree tangerine
« on: April 23, 2018, 07:34:54 PM »
Here it is in the ground

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Clamondin
« on: April 23, 2018, 03:26:12 AM »
Here's a kumquat, mandarinquat, and calamondin grown from seed:

(calamondin is the one in back, mandarinquat in front)

Here's another interesting study and DNA marker analysis:

Citrus Genetic Resources Grown on the Ryukyu Islands, Japan
Yamamoto Yasashi, Kagoshima University

It shows pictures of all these obscure citrus too.

Apparently kunenbo groups more closely with sour orange and pumelo, while Shikuwasa groups more closely with Tachibana, while yuzu and Ichang papeda group separately.

C. Tachibana may possibly be native to Southern Japan, Okinawa and Taiwan, and it appears to be very closely related to C. reticula, to the point it could possibly be regarded as a subspecies of C. reticula.
(Genomics of the origin and evolution of Citrus Guohong albert Wu, Javier Terol)
However, this fact does not make it show up as C. reticula in the DNA marker analysis inferring ancestry, so it's clearly not just a mandarin hybrid (i.e. it shows up as only 1% C. reticula in DNA ancestry)

Another study indicated Shikuwasa is probabably a hybrid of another unidentified mystery parent with Tachibana, or possibly some sort of backross with Tachibana.

A very misleading post, do not understand why you are mixing real scientific results with your unbased  prophetic revelations.
I know there is a lot of information presented and being discussed here, but what are a few of the main things you find misleading about it?

I was just trying to condense a long study into an easy to read summary. And adding a little informed commentary to try to help facts make more sense.

To read the article is enough to understand.
It is good to have a plain-text version of this information. These downloadable pdf's have a way of becoming unavailable over time.

According to the flow graph in the first study, they are inferring that kishu is one of the parents of natsudaidai, along with another mystery parent. Apparently kunenbo-A originated from a cross from kishu and another mystery parent, while kunenbo-B originated from a cross between sour orange and a different mystery parent. It would appear then that kunenbo A and B are not related, if this is correct. The flow chart also indicates that Kabosu resulted from a cross between Yuzu and kunenbo-A.

The kunenbo-A corresponds to the 35% C. maxima, 65% C. reticula
while the kunenbo-B corresponds to the 30% C. reticula, 65% C. medica, 5% C. maxima

It appears then that the "C. medica" here might actually indeed be C. medica (rather than C. ichangensis) if it's coming from the sour orange parent. (or possibly a mix of C. medica and C. ichangensis, since the other mystery parent is unnamed)

I recently found an interesting DNA study done in Japan that could help provide more insight into the very far back origins of several cold-hardy Japanese citrus varieties.

Some things to bear in mind, this genetic marker analysis is not exactly indicative of precise ancestry percentages. It is only looking at certain markers, so this is only going to give us a very rough idea of the probable ancestry.

Apparently citron (C. medica) is nearly identical to Ichang papeda (C. ichangensis) in the DNA marker analysis, such that the study did not bother to differentiate them.
This means that wherever you see "C. medica" in the ancestry of these cold-hardy Japanese citrus varieties it is actually C. ichangensis.

The following percentages are not exact, they are rough estimates I copied from a visual graph:

C. ichangensis: 91.5% C. medica, 8% C. maxima, 0.5% reticula
Ichang lemon: 60% C. medica, 40% C. maxima
Yuzu: 99% C. medica, 1% C. reticula
Hyuganatsu: 26% C. reticula, 40% C. medica, 34% C. maxima
Kunenbo: 30% C. reticula, 65% C. medica, 5% C. maxima
Kunenbo (II) : 35% C. maxima, 65% C. reticula
Sudachi: 33% C. reticula, 67% C. medica
Kabuchi 33% C. reticula, 51% C. medica, 19% C. maxima
Kabosu: 34% C. reticula, 58% C. medica, 8% C. maxima
Kinkoji: 36% C. reticula, 0.5% C. medica, 63.5% C. maxima
Shiikuwassha 44% C. reticula, 56% C. medica
Keraji: 50% C. reticula, 16% C. maxima, 34% C. medica
Natsudaidai 52% C. reticula, 0.5% C. medica, 47.5% C. maxima
Satsuma: 25% C. maxima, 75% C. reticula
Hirado Buntan: 100% C. maxima

Hybrid Origins of Citrus Varieties Inferred from DNA Marker Analysis of Nuclear and Organelle Genomes,
Shimizu T, Kitajima A.

Some thoughts.

Yuzu is believed to share about half-and-half ancestry from C. reticula and C. ichangensis (or possibly even an earlier papeda species forerunner of C. ichangensis), so the fact that C. reticula barely showed up in the genetic analysis is a clear example of how imprecise the ancestry results of such an analysis are.
Yuzu probably wasn't just a simple cross of C. ichangensis with C. reticula; there probably had to be a few generations sexual propagation for the C. reticula gene markers to get bred out.

Apparently there are two very different forms of kunenbo, one with C. ichangensis ancestry, the other without. It looks like Kinkoji doesn't have any recent C. ichangensis ancestors, so it probably didn't descend from the kunenbo type in the study that showed C. ichangensis ancestry. The same is probably true of Satsuma as well.

Natsudaidai apparently doesn't have any close connection to Yuzu.
(Nansho-daidai I believe is Tiwanica lemon)

The overall ancestry composition in the graph is consistent with the theory that Hyuganatsu resulted from buntan getting pollinated by yuzu. However, if you look at the flow chart, the study inferred that Tachibana-B was one of the parents of Hyuganatsu. The graph shows Tachibana-B to be about 31% C. reticula, 69% "C. medica" (remember represents C. ichangensis here), so it may be that buntan (C. maxima) was pollinated by Tachibana-B, rather than yuzu. Although with that high a percentage of C. ichangensis I suspect Tachibana-B originated from a yuzu cross.

And the study does confirm the leading theory that Ichang lemon is a hybrid between C. ichangensis and C. maxima (though still doesn't prove whether it was a simple cross).

Keraji displays a surprisingly high percentage of C. ichangensis. It was my understanding that keraji originated, over a progression, from a triple backcross of Kunenbo with Shiikuwasha (C. depressa). It's possible that the C. ichangensis genes were positively selected for over time, since those genes conferred cold hardiness.

This isn't from this study but is just some things I've been able to put together from other studies, that may help you make some more sense of those varieties in that list:

Shiikuwasha x kunenbo = kabuchi; kabuchi x kunenbo = kikaimikan; kikaimikan x kunenbo = keraji
kishu x kunenbo = Satsuma; buntan x kunenbo = kinkoji ( kinkoji = Bloomsweet)
kabosu and sudachi are almost certainly hybrids from yuzu

Another DNA marker analysis done in China did not seem to show a connection between Changsha mandarin and C. ichangensis, which is interesting because the fruits/seeds of Changsha mandarin appear very morphologically similar to clementine-yuzu hybrid. The analysis did suggest Changsha mandarin might have just a little C. maxima ancestry though (maybe 15%)
Genomics of the origin and evolution of Citrus, Guohong Albert Wu, Javier Terol

Of course it's also possible the gene markers could have been completely bred out over numerous suceeding generations, since Changsha mandarin originated from growing in the wild.

A note about availability of these varieties in the U.S.
Most of these varieties on this list are fairly available to those in the U.S. The main exceptions are Kunenbo and Hyuganatsu.
Kabosu can be harder to find. Shikuwasa and Keraji seem to be fairly prevelent in Georgia and North Carolina, but I don't believe they can be found in the rest of the country. (Shikuwasa is sometimes written shikwasa, different spellings) C. ichangensis used to be more popular, but currently I don't think it is available from any mail order nurseries. It can still be found in Europe. Bloomsweet was introduced into the U.S. from Texas, so can be found in that part of the country.

Hyuganatsu isn't too difficult to get in Japan, it is sometimes sold as a seasonal specialty fruit. (I don't know whether it actually displays any exceptional cold hardiness traits) Kunenbo used to be the popular fruit in Japan hundreds of years ago before it was replaced by what is today called Satsuma. It's not widely available any longer but can still be found in some botanical and historical collections.
The UCR collection in California supposedly has one but apparently from the descriptions the type they have is not the delicious tasting one that exists in Japan, and in any case it's not available to the public.

Hirado Buntan isn't really that cold hardy but is more cold tolerant than other pomelos.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: The Fragrance of Citrus in Bloom
« on: April 19, 2018, 04:31:29 PM »
Pollination  of Miaygawa by poncirus  in this case was used in order to identify and discard possible zygotic hybrids (trifoliates).
Too bad they couldn't have sent the seedling plants to someone else to grow them and evaluate their cold hardiness and fruit quality.

I read about all these interesting experiments where researchers took the time to make interesting hybridizations, but they weren't evaluating the offspring past the seedling stage so they just tossed them all out. Surely there would have been other people interested in those seedlings.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Clemyuz 3-3, ten degree tangerine
« on: April 19, 2018, 12:55:05 AM »
It's a lot less vigorous growing than it's parent yuzu. I had a small plant inside a greenhouse, and we had an extremely mild Winter, and the leaves still got trashed. I mean they looked really bad, even though most of them did not fall off. That's not necessarily an indication of its cold hardiness though. I noticed some cold hardy citrus varieties are quick to drop leaves at the slightest bit of cold, and it's probably a protection strategy, to go into dormancy to avoid possible damage if temperatures get colder later.

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