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Messages - SoCal2warm

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Graft chimeras and hardy citrus
« on: Today at 10:57:18 AM »
How much do we know about graft chimeras and hardy citrus?

Graft chimeras are a sort of hybrid, but not a genetic one, between two different species that resulted through grafting, typically from growth offshoot coming out of a graft union area and then separately propagated. The graft chimera is comprised of a mixture of cells between the two citrus types.

There are different types of graft chimeras. The most homogeneous ones, and the ones of most interest are periclinal chimeras, which typically involve a single layer of cells distributed throughout the growth of the plant.

I'm also experimenting with joining together different seedlings together at the earliest stage of their development, so that the seedling sprout consists of a mix of cells from two sources. (This takes some very fine precision and a good eye)

How much hardiness can a cold hardy variety confer to another normal citrus variety when they are part of a chimera together?
Could this be a viable strategy for developing new cold hardy citrus?

From what I've seen, many obscure citrus varieties that are believed to have originated as a graft chimera have not actually been confirmed as being so, so it's not truly known with certainty.
The only way to be sure is if there's obvious phenotypical differences in different parts of the tree, or on different parts of the fruit, but in that case its not a very homogenous chimera, and not a periclinal type of one, which would be expected to give the best hardiness because the cells are more evenly distributed throughout the plant.

Say for instance we had a Satsuma graft chimera together with a Satsuma-trifoliate (citrandarin) hybrid.
The Satsuma-trifoliate hybrid within the chimera system could be a triploid with only one of its three sets of chromosomes coming from trifoliate.*
That could potentially make the resulting chimera nearly indistinguishable from normal Satsuma.

* (This could come about through hybridizing a tetraploid Satsuma with a normal diploid trifoliate, or the pollen may have been unreduced coming from the Satsuma, or the female parent being used could have been a "seedless" triploid, and so any rare seeds that did manage to form would be much more likely to have originated from an unreduced female gamete, since triploid cells that undergo meiosis have a fairly high chance of turning out aneuploid and won't develop. Also, you have to have a non-nucellar citrus variety for the triploid to turn out seedless, otherwise the seeds are still going to form from nucellar tissue even though the zygote failed to develop.)

Prague Citsuma is believed to be a graft hybrid, but it has not yet been positively confirmed with certainty. (A few basic tests were done but were inconclusive)

I just use 13 watt ("100 watt equivalent") 5000K LED bulbs, which seem to work okay for 2 x 2 foot areas (better than red+blue LED panels in my experience).

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: January 15, 2019, 11:20:00 PM »
Walt, I suggest you make an acquaintance in the area who would be able to carry on your long term hardy citrus breeding project if something were to happen to you. You have to think ahead and plan beyond your lifetime.

I have read of many results of long-term fruit breeding being totally lost when the original person carrying on the experiments died. Such a shame. I'd hope that doesn't happen in your case.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Kumquat varieties update
« on: January 14, 2019, 09:55:23 PM »
Does Ichangquat count as a kumquat variety?

Citrus General Discussion / Re: What is wrong with my page mandarin tree?
« on: January 14, 2019, 09:44:18 PM »
If I had to guess, maybe cold wet roots combined with hard clay and limestone soil?
Although they need to stay moist, citrus roots like to breathe, and when they can't the leaves often turn yellow during the colder wetter winter.
Alkalinity (limestone) could also be making it more difficult for the roots to take up iron. However, yours looks more like it may be nitrogen deficiency.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: More unusual/obscure cold hardy citrus hybrids
« on: January 14, 2019, 02:36:09 PM »
Eyeckr is growing numerous cold hardy citrus cultivars right up against an inlet of water in Virginia Beach (in case any of you are not aware, or for those who may be reading an archived version of this in the distant future), in zone 8a.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: More unusual/obscure cold hardy citrus hybrids
« on: January 14, 2019, 01:42:08 AM »
I believe Ventura is Eyeckr's last name.
I believe you are correct. That would make sense then. 

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: More unusual/obscure cold hardy citrus hybrids
« on: January 13, 2019, 05:23:28 PM »
A question, does anyone know if the Ventura lemandarin originated from Ventura, California?
There's also a Ventura county in Florida just outside of Orlando.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: More unusual/obscure cold hardy citrus hybrids
« on: January 13, 2019, 05:19:00 PM »
Unfortunately, none of these are readily available to us (except Glen and Thomasville).
I have all four of the ones listed, and will be happy to send out seeds once they have fruited, but they're still probably a long way away from fruiting.

Eyeckr has some extra Glen citrangedin fruits, I'm sure he could send you one. Though after looking at the fruit for myself, I'm not sure I'd bother.

Cold Hardy Citrus / More unusual/obscure cold hardy citrus hybrids
« on: January 13, 2019, 12:28:17 AM »
Let's talk about some of the more unusual and obscure complex hybrids.

Dimicelli - I'm not exactly sure where this one comes from but it's believed to either be a citrandarin or, more likely I've read, someone remembered it being a Clementine cross with CiTemple.

"The common tangerine is the hardiest of the dessert citrus, and was a possible source of genetic material.  The first attempt was Clementine x P. trifoliata, and these survived, at least in Franklin at 0F (-17.8C)and in Houstion at 5F (-15C)to fruit following the freeze of 1989.  They seem to be hardy to five degree above zero.  Several siblings, 'Dimicelli', 'Backyard' and 'Hardy Fruitful 90 have received the dignity of names."
The Hardy Citrus of Texas, reported by C.T. Kennedy from the notes of John R. Brown, M.D., article in Fruit Gardener, page 14

CiTemple is a Temple orange x poncirus cross, Temple orange actually being a tangor that has zygotic seeds and thus a suitable choice for female parent in hybridization efforts. I've read some references to "CiTemple edible" which was considered particularly good tasting variety for a citrange.

Ventura Lemandarin- This is believed to be a cross between Tiwanica lemon and either Keraji or Satsuma mandarin.
Ventura lemandarin is sour, like a lemon.
Seems to be a vigorous growing variety. Supposedly when it was high grafted onto poncirus it managed to survive a brief 6 F event with branch die-back, according to one report.

According to genetic marker studies, Tiwanica lemon seems to really be a sort of sour orange, with pomelo-type gene indications. It originated from Taiwan, and was named Nanshodaidai in Japan. The fruits are as sour as a lemon.
Both Keraji and Satsuma are closely related in ancestry, Keraji having even more cold tolerance than Satsuma, though smaller more sour (and seedy) fruits.

Glen citrangedin- This was an early citrange x calamondin cross.

" The first hybrids were between Poncirus trifoliata and varieties of the cultivated orange. They were called "Citranges" and while they received a good deal of publicity when they were first introduced they may be said to have been more encouraging than useful. The fruit, though beautiful to look at, was scarcely larger than that of the Trifoliate Orange, and while the juice, taken by itself, could be used as a substitute for lemons, there was even in the hybrid so much musky oil in the rind, that special precautions had to be taken in opening the fruit. Another bad trait of the hybrid was its too quick response to warm weather in the early spring. It was, therefore, crossed with two other citrus fruits, which, though not so hardy in other ways, were slower to start into growth m the spring. These were the Kumquat, Fortunella japonica, and the Calamondin, Citrus mitas, a tropical citrus fruit from the Philippines. The triple hybrids which resulted were called "Citrangequats" and "Citrangedins" respectively. The most promising hybrid yet introduced is among the latter group and has been named the Glen Citrangedin, from Glen St. Marys, Florida, where much of the breeding work has been done. It has small fruits about the size and flavor of a lime, but colored like an orange. The rind is without even a trace of the musky oil which characterizes the original hybrid and the tree is hardy at least as far north as southern Georgia. This artificial cosmopolite, uniting the possibilities of the Chinese Poncirus, and Philippine Calamondin with the common orange, is the "farthest north" which has as yet been achieved by the plant breeders. "
Arnold Arboretum Harvard University Bulletin of Popular Information, Series 3, Volume VI, November 5, 1932, article: Growing Orages in Boston, page 45, Edgar Anderson

I don't know about good tasting though. I was given two of the fruits and they had an unpleasant aroma, like rubber and baby wipes that made them inedible to me. The same with many other poncirus hybrids.
If they had been grown from seed it's possible they just reverted to a more bad flavored type, so I can't be completely sure if the fruits were truly indicitive of the original Glen citrangedin. Fruit size was also incredibly small, tinier than big sized kumquats.
Thomasville citrangequat was infinitely better.

MIC (Minneola x Ichang papeda x CiTemple Edible) -
I believe this was bred by Dr. Brown, who first crossed Ichang papeda with CiTemple Edible, and then crossed that with Minneola Tangelo.

(I have a seedling cultivar of this, may or may not be exactly the same as the original MIC, but unfortunately haven't had the opportunity to see any fruits yet)

Minneola tangelo isn't exactly a real cold hardy variety, but they are a bit hardier than oranges.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: January 12, 2019, 08:19:09 PM »
I may try to cross Taitri with Oroblanco grapefruit.

(appropriate since Taitri is tiwanica lemon x trifoliate, and tiwanica is really like a sour orange in ancestry, with pomelo-type as far as genetics go)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: January 12, 2019, 03:41:29 AM »
For me, this is a little bit deceptive result and proves that even for a single gene trait you need more than 2 backcroses and 30 years of breeding in order to  get rid of nasty taste of Poncirus fruits.
That's why it may be better to start from already existing more edible hybrids like N1tri, US 852, and Dunstan citrumelo.
In the case of Thomasville citrangequat I virtually didn't detect any off taste at all and it was almost like calamondin or orange in flavor.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: January 12, 2019, 02:09:22 AM »
kumquat x C. ichangensis
seeds germinating

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: January 12, 2019, 12:25:04 AM »
One of the (few) advantages of trying to grow in the PNW is that the temperatures remain really cool (much too cold for citrus to grow) for nearly half the year, so that means there's no danger of leaving dormancy before the danger of frost has passed.
Although we did have some freak unusual weather in the 2017-2018 Winter, with a highly unusual snow in early November and then the temperature never dropping below freezing the entire month of December, then afterwards there was actually a really warm period in early March. (This is far from typical though)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Using up those Citrangequats!!!
« on: January 10, 2019, 05:01:26 PM »
eyeckr sent me some fruits.

Thomasville Citrangquat was like a slightly more sour version of calamondin. It had good flavor. (I could even say that I could enjoy eating it) The peel was borderline tolerably edible but a little too much like orange peel to really eat it. I found one seed inside.
Fruit size was nice, bigger than your typical calamondin.

On the other hand, Glen Citrangedin had a really off flavor and aroma, smelling reminiscent of baby wipes, and because of that was inedible (to me). fruits were also tiny

I tasted them side by, and am going to have to say that Thomasville is clearly superior in every way to Glen.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: January 09, 2019, 03:20:33 PM »
N1tri seedling
(C. ichangensis x trifoliate)

I have a Saint Dominic's Sour Orange tree grown from seed planted in 2005. It is now 9-feet tall and has fruited for the last 2 years.
In Colorado? Protected during the Winter, or outside?

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Best Garcinia root stock for California
« on: January 04, 2019, 01:41:55 AM »
Fukugi (Garcinina subelliptica) is commonly grown as an ornamental and windbreak in Okinawa. According to the following article, the grafting success rate for mangosteen onto Fukugi was 11%, while mangosteen onto mangosteen rootstock was 68%. They say that Fukugi is not recommended as mangosteen rootstock because its grafted seedlings grew slower than seedlings with mangosteen rootstock.

Fukugi would probably grow very well in Southern and Central coastal California. It has yellow fruits that are not very good for eating but fruit bats in Okinawa are known to like eating them.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Sudachi cold hardiness
« on: January 03, 2019, 02:01:32 PM »
  Interesting, I guess citrangequat is not a stable line and might not grow true from seeds. The F2 and beyond offsprings could be more cold or less cold tolerant.
That could be a good thing if you're trying to hybridize it, using it as the female fruit parent to get a new variety.

If I graft meiwa kumquat on flying dragon, how much the hardiness it would increase? If I plant it on the southside of my house to avoid cld wind, will it survive without protection in Atlanta?
Probably not much. Kumquat is already prone to enter into protective dormancy by itself, which is the whole point of FD rootstock.

Meiwa on FD would likely survive in Georgia in zone 8a, but I would be very surprised if it managed to survive in zone 7b.
If you did want to try it, I would definitely try planted up against a wall in a warm spot protected from wind, and maybe covered with a burlap sack and large plastic bag as well for some small degree of insulation from wind.

One woman tried to grow a small kumquat tree with minimal protection in zone 7b Atlanta but it did not survive. It was on rough lemon rootstock though.

Not very likely, at least not from a direct cross.

However you might take a look at this:
Citrofortunella x Tricimequat

Up for bid are seeds of the Tricimequat.  This is a beautiful small cold hardy Citrus tree, that gets fragrant white flowers, and delicious sweet Kumquat like fruit (and Kumquat is in the parentage of this unique hybrid), and like all Kumquats, you eat the peel and all with these.  This unusual cross is a hybrid of the Procimequat (another Kumquat hybrid) crossed with Trifoliate Orange for additional hardiness, and amazingly there is no bad taste from the trifoliate.  I enjoy eating these just as much as my Meiwa Kumquats, but this tree is much more cold tolerant  It is a rounded upright grower, and this is evergreen.  They are hardy to at least USDA zone 7b, and quite possibly 7a.  These plants would make excellent additions to your rare plant collection, or just make a unique statement in your yard.

You are bidding on 5 seeds of Citrofortunella x Tricimequat.  greg17086
Apparently it's a (Hong Kong kumquat x (kumquat x lime)) x trifoliate hybrid.

Although the sale has now ended, I was able to goad the owner of One Green World into getting and trying to germinate them.

Maybe if this was further crossed with Ichangquat we might get something truly edible.

Oh, by the way, I recently got the opportunity to taste Meiwa and agree it's the tastiest kumquat I've gotten to taste so far.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Sudachi cold hardiness
« on: January 02, 2019, 04:28:01 PM »
This was posted by one of our members in this forum:
jim VH
Vancouver,Wa. zone 8b
March 22, 2018

Yes, My Sudachi and Yuzu easily survived 8F (-13.3C) in January 2017 in Vancouver Wa., just across the Columbia river from Portland Or., with only minor small twig damage and about 20% defoliation on each.  The Sudachi appeared to have a higher percentage of small twig damage than the Yuzu.  On the other hand, the Yuzu is a much larger tree, and size does matter.

Genetic studies have suggested that Sudachi originated form a cross between an unidentified parent and Yuzu. That unidentified parent probably was a cross between Kishu and a Koji-type citrus which had Tachibana in its ancestry. (Kunenbo is a Koji-type citrus, to give you some idea of what we are talking about here, indeed this "Koji-type" citrus may have been a Kunenbo, but not the same Kunenbo variety that Satsuma, Bloomsweet, and Keraji (as well as Kabosu also) originated from. I think the name "Kunenbo" in general was used to refer to a certain type of larger fruit aromatic tangor-like type of mandarins, which may have all appeared similar to each other but in some cases had heterogenous origins)

I'm guessing Sudachi is nearly as, or possibly equal to, hardy as Yuzu and can survive down to zone 8.
It might not really thrive in the colder parts of zone 8, unless planted up against a house or in a large city near a large body of water.

rare Natsumikan seeds, most likely will not be available again (only available next couple of days)
cold hardiness level between Bloomsweet and Satsuma (supposedly one Natsumikan tree has survived up against a wall outside in London)
flavor somewhere in between an orange, grapefruit, and sour orange, flavor slightly watery but enjoyable, though can be kind of acidic,
not too many seeds and big juicy fruits, also fruits seem to have remarkable ability to survive on tree down to 18F

$1 for one seed, $1.50 for 2 (limit 2)
freshly harvested from fruit

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« on: January 01, 2019, 02:43:34 PM »
And I do not believe that rooted cutting is weaker than seedling.
I'm not inclined to believe that either. (although who really knows?)
My purpose to starting this thread was not to say that there is a difference between grown from seed and rooted cuttings,
I was simply speculating on the effects of being grafted onto different rootstock. That's the discussion I was trying to focus on.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« on: December 30, 2018, 10:40:53 PM »
I'm not very confident even the rare seedling will show much more cold hardiness than its parents.

(Unless that seedling originated from a heterogenous hybrid involving cold hardy hardy cultivars)

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