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Messages - SoCal2warm

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Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: Ugli and King mandarin tree
« on: Today at 12:58:52 AM »
I have some ugli fruit seedlings I grew from a fruit I found at a supermarket I'd be happy to give away, but it probably wouldn't be worth all the trouble I'd have to go through since you're in Europe, getting a plant certificate, and whether it would even survive the delay through customs. The taste is kind of like a watery kind of bland navel orange, with just a little bit of grapefruit.

Anyway, the ugli fruit I tried didn't really taste all that good, although there is something kind of unique and spicy about the fragrance in the peel. The flavor is like a kind of watery bland navel orange with maybe just a little bit of grapefruit. It is very juicy though.

You're not really missing anything, and anyway I read ugli fruit doesn't deal well with the slightest bit of cold, so it may not be the most appropriate choice where you are.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Help me fix my mandarin
« on: August 16, 2018, 10:35:07 PM »
It's probably still young, the root system hasn't had a chance to get fully established yet.

Try to keep the soil moist, but allow a time every 5 days or so where the soil is allowed to dry out. Not completely dry, but not too moist.

It's possible you might have stressed the roots with too much fertilizer or too much water, which in any case can be a difficult thing because the plant needs a lot of water when the temperatures are very hot and it's in the sun (and you live in a desert with drier air so that doesn't help).

Another little fact you may not know, mandarins are (in general) not as tolerant to heat and blazing sun as oranges and grapefruits are. That may be a small factor as well. And it's probably not a huge difference.

With the heat wave you've been having, I wouldn't be surprised the leaves don't look the best.
If it's still very hot (commonly above 87 degrees) and you really wanted to go to extreme lengths you could put a shade cloth covering over it for the next month, reducing evaporation loss and hopefully encouraging new leaflets to grow. But I think the trouble of doing that would probably not be justified at this point.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Orchard Crime Wave in New Zealand
« on: August 15, 2018, 01:48:18 PM »
Country has taken in a fair amount of immigration, poverty rates are around 50% higher than they were 5 or 6 years ago.

New Zealand is an exporter of produce to Australia, which proved that you don't need cheap immigrant labor to pick fruits for commercial sale, but now a lot of teens and young adults that used to be hired in the fields are being pushed out of the job by harder working adults from other countries, so it's beginning to lead to a wave of juvenile delinquents.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Clamondin
« on: August 14, 2018, 11:27:05 PM »
Look at the difference between the leaves of these two mandarinquats grown from seed, one looks like mandarin leaves, the other has narrower leaf shape that looks like kumquat. Both seeds came from the same batch of fruit.

It will be interesting to see what the fruits look like.
(kumquat/mandarinquat tend to start fruiting young, so shouldn't be too long of a wait)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichanglemons
« on: August 14, 2018, 10:30:46 PM »
Might be interesting to try crossing Ichang lemon with citrumelo.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« on: August 14, 2018, 10:28:11 PM »
Sometimes what is regarded as common knowledge can be wrong though. Sometimes a specific experiment to answer that question has never been carried out, or only applies to specific situations (certain varieties, a certain climate zone).

There is no such thing as wild Changsha.
Unless I am misremembering, there are multiple varieties of wild Changsha in a certain region of China. I saw it in a very old publication (before 1920) in Google books, and it had a few black & white pictures. I believe the spelling was also different, and the book might have had something to do with botanical observations from missionaries. I'm not able to find it now.
If it wasn't changsha it had to have been some other cold hardy orange citrus fruit. But I specifically remember it mentioned some of the varieties having more drought tolerance or deeper roots, better adaption to clay soil or flooding, if located near river plains.

The differences didn't relate to fruits but adaptations to growing in different environments in that area. It was a drier area in the North, without much tree cover.

Fruits forming on Crimea

Kuganskaya has fruits too.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu... my new obsession!
« on: August 13, 2018, 10:38:06 AM »
2. Yuzu do not grow true to type from seed.

I think I read somewhere that Yuzu is polyembryonic, which would mean it strongly produces mostly nucellar seeds.

However, even if that were not the case I would still expect Yuzu to produce relatively true to seed if pollination did not come from a different variety.

This may raise more questions than it answers but another study done in China suggested that the genetic background of Changsha mandarin may have some introgression from C. maxima (up to 15%).
Genomics of the origin and evolution of Citrus, Guohong Albert Wu, Javier Terol

If this is actually true, it strongly suggests Changsha did not result from purely natural origins. Or at least there has been some substantial introgression into the Changsha genepool from domesticated mandarins.

Presumably, the study only examined the domesticated cultivar of Changsha, and it might be possible the results could be different for other Changsha cultivars in the wild. That there are multiple different types of Changsha adapted to different climatic conditions in different growing conditions suggests that Changsha is native, or at least has been growing in the wild for a long time and has become naturalized.

The study did not show any shared connection to C. ichangensis.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« on: August 12, 2018, 10:54:31 PM »
North Waco family's orange tree a miracle on 15th Street
by J.B. Smith, January 2013

A tree that Juana Delgado grew from the seed of a grocery store orange has become a miracle on 15th Street.

This month, Delgado’s family has harvested an estimated 600 oranges from the tree she planted 15 years ago when she moved into the Habitat for Humanity home near North 15th Street and Colcord Avenue.

In recent weeks, the family made big jugs of orange juice, shared fruit with passing vagrants and sent their children door-to-door to give away large bags of juicy oranges.

The tree has defied the conventional wisdom that oranges can't survive the Central Texas winter, when temperatures usually dip into the low 20s.
But the tree has soldiered on, even through a January 2010 cold snap when temperatures plummeted to 8 degrees.

"Many people said it’s not possible," Delgado said in Spanish. "I say, 'Come look. It's possible.'"
Mark Barnett, a McLennan County master gardener and a landscaper by trade, said he has seen many people try to grow citrus trees they bought from big box stores, but the trees usually freeze and die.

"It's very unusual for it to have survived that long without protection," he said. "We've had some extremely cold winters that should have killed it."
Delgado started the orange tree in a pot using a seed from an orange she bought at an H-E-B supermarket. Most table oranges are improved hybrid varieties and tend not to reproduce faithfully by seed, Barnett said.

But Delgado's oranges turned out sweet and flavorful. Delgado has been harvesting a few oranges a year during the last decade but got her first big harvest two winters ago: A basket and a box full. In the 2011 drought, she kept the tree alive by watering it but ended up with only three oranges that season.
This year, she hit the jackpot. Her children and grandchildren climbed ladders to pick the fruit and filled six boxes with about 100 oranges each.

Waco, Texas, is in zone 8a, and is just a little south of Dallas.

Although in recent years the 8b zone has been moving north, first the southern half of Waco was reclassified into zone 8b, and now on the latest maps zone 8b has engulfed the entire city.

Valencia, I've read, requires a warm hot climate for good flavor.
Don't get me wrong, a good Valencia has the best flavor of any orange, but several growers in cooler climates have stated that their Navels taste better (maybe just sweeter?). I personally would still try to grow Valencias (maybe just stubbornness on my part).

Also some citrus varieties take longer before the fruits start developing good flavor. You can't really judge the flavor of a variety from how the fruits taste in the first few years.

And of course fruits grown yourself, just picked from the tree, always taste better.

Page, to me, has a tartness greater than Minneola tangelo, so probably good for juicing. (But that doesn't mean it's not plenty sweet). I can definitely pick up on some of the Duncan grapefruit flavor, just as I can in Minneola. The fragrance of Page though really reminds me of pine needles (not at all in a bad way).

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Arctic Frost beginning to come back
« on: August 11, 2018, 05:24:29 PM »

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Grow Japanese Cherry Tree in Florida?
« on: August 10, 2018, 11:24:23 PM »
I'm assuming you realize that Japanese cherries do not really produce edible fruit?

Also, just in case you were wondering, Japanese cherries could be regarded as a subspecies group within the same larger group as regular sweet cherries (the type you eat).

(Unlike all the other cherry groups I am aware of, these two groups actually have the same chromosome count, so it is possible for the two to interbreed to produce fertile offspring, although I would expect the vigor and health to be just a little bit stunted due to outbreeding depression. Okay, that's probably more information than you wanted to know. None of the hybrids they attempted produced very good cherry fruits)

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Grow Japanese Cherry Tree in Florida?
« on: August 10, 2018, 02:45:31 AM »
Oh, also there's a few Japanese cherry varieties that have a lower chilling requirement and do much better in climates that don't have winter cold.

kanzakura, okame, and youkouzakura are three such relatively low-chill cultivars in Japan

Taiwan cherry (Prunus campanulata, also called Formosan cherry, and called kanhizakura in Japan) is one that is very popular in the U.S. in parts of the South.
It has a deep bright magenta color.

Pink Cloud is another one (it probably derived from P. campanulata pollinating a white flowered serrulata variety)

You might look up pictures of all of them, but in my personal opinion none of these lower chill varieties really have as attractive flowers as other varieties of Japanese cherry cultivars.

Despite the supposed chill hour requirement, it is possible for the standard Yoshino cultivar to grow and put out blossoms in climate zone 10.
 I grew a very small one. I think they had more difficulty dealing with the heat and dryness than they did coming out of dormancy in the Spring.
 All the very small Japanese cherries that were on their own roots survived. The one large one that was on grafted rootstock didn't survive, and I'm pretty it was in substantial part because it couldn't handle the lack of chill and just didn't have the vigor to really leaf out.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Grow Japanese Cherry Tree in Florida?
« on: August 10, 2018, 02:28:22 AM »
Japanese cherry trees really have a problem dealing with heat, especially heat combined with high levels of humidity.

If you do try growing it I would suggest trying to grow it on its own roots (not grafted onto different rootstock, like the trees from the nursery normally are), it will be more vigorous that way, better being able to resist the lack of chill hours.

The leaves are likely going to get baked and scorched in the sun in the Summer, so you might want to start them off in containers in partial shade.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: cold hardy Citrus for zone 7b?
« on: August 09, 2018, 08:31:26 PM »
This is a picture of a fairly large citrumelo tree growing in Winston-Salem, central North Carolina (zone 7b)

credit to Bob Snyder for the pictures of his tree

If you want to see some pictures of citrumelos surviving in a hard zone 8a climate, see this thread:
"Citrumelos in England"

Tropical Fruit Online Library / Re: The Incredible POMEGRANATE
« on: August 09, 2018, 08:11:41 PM »
I'm growing Parfianka and Crimson Sky in Olympia, WA. That's actually just a little bit farther north than Quebec City, Canada, or Duluth, Minnesota, if you care to pull out a map. These are both more cold-hardy varieties (and soft-seeded).

Regular pomegranate varieties can be grown here, but will die back to the ground about every 8 years when there's a colder winter.

As for whether there's enough heat to ripen the fruits, that depends on exactly which variety it is and what exact area you're in. Parts of the PNW get plenty of heat in the Summer, though the season may not last as long as it does in other places.

I grew two seedlings from Shasta Gold mandarin (a triploid variety).
Both seedlings seem to be weak and very much lacking in vigor compared to other citrus variety seedlings. One of the seeds was almost certainly nucellar because it sent up multiple seedlings (and if you look very closely you can see a couple of different seedlings growing in that same container). The seedling in the other container (cup) came from a different Shasta Gold seed.

A very quick condensed summary of what we've learned so far: When growing seeds from a triploid citrus cultivar, some of them will be triploid and/or some of them will be normal diploid; all the triploid seeds will be nucellar (genetic clones of the fruit parent).

In very rare cases there might be a tetraploid seed, probably resulting when one of the triploid gametes (3n) escapes unreduced and combines with a normal haploid gamete (1n), resulting in a seed with a tetraploid (4n) zygotic embryo.
It's rather rare for a gamete to escape unreduced (meaning meiosis didn't divide the original chromosme set, when sexual gamete cells were being produced, that would be either the pollen or the ovaries of the fruit parent)
(Maybe only 1 out of 25 gametes are unreduced?)

The reason triploids are generally "seedless" (for the most part) is the problematic nature of what happens when a triploid chromosome (3n) set is split apart during meosis. It's not a normal division. (because it's an odd number, 3 cannot evenly be split into 2) So for the most part zygotic seeds fail to form or are very underformed. Yet a small number of normal zygotic seeds can form.

I would think Minneola tangelo would be better for juice than Page, since that is where Page gets most of its flavor from (one of its parents).

I think Minneola has better flavor than Orlando tangelo, but Orlando is said to be slightly cold-hardier.

Since I love Valencia juice, I can't make any comments about which one would be "better", they would just be different.
(standard commercial orange juice is usually made from Valencia, and for very good reason)

I've long thought about trying to attempt a hybrid between Valencia and Duncan grapefruit (one of the parent's of Minneola tangelo, and so ultimately an ancestor of Page mandarin). I bet that would have supreme juicing flavor.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Thread for Citrus Breeders
« on: August 09, 2018, 03:24:04 PM »
related thread title:
"about how to breed seedless citrus varieties"

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Ponderosa lemon strange leaning leaves
« on: August 09, 2018, 01:49:54 PM »
It probably has something to do with heat or water stress, it could have something to do with a root issue, perhaps some root rot from overwatering in the past, or it could even be an early warning sign that there might be some disease in the roots (there's nothing really you can do about that).

I would just try to make sure your watering habits are good.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Spider Mites
« on: August 09, 2018, 01:43:37 PM »
I use a mix of Pyrethrin and insect killing soap. I mix it from concentrate because the regular spray bottles would be too expensive considering the amount I go through. Periodically, about every 6 weeks, all the indoor ones are taken outside and thoroughly sprayed, then left outside for an hour or two (usually in the cold)  to dry off.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Thread for Citrus Breeders
« on: August 09, 2018, 12:53:50 PM »
Here's the full reference for the Frost and Soost (1968) table:

H.B. Frost, R.K. Soost, (1968) Seed reproduction: development of gametes and embryos.
In: W. Reuther, L.D. Bachelor, H.J. Webber, The Citrus Industry, Volume II. Division of Agricultural Sciences. University of California Berkeley, pp 292-334

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Thread for Citrus Breeders
« on: August 09, 2018, 12:09:10 AM »
"Isozyme analysis was the basis for determining the frequency of occurrence and the characteristics of zygotic plants in Swingle citrumelo seedling populations from various sources of open-pollinated seeds, in a commercial nursery of Swingle citrumelo before and after roguing, and in commercial orchards and rootstock trials where this rootstock was used. Most zygotic seedlings identified by isozyme analysis could be distinguished by careful examination of morphological characteristics. Frequencies of zygotic seedlings varied among seedling populations, but were in the range (≈5% to 10%) found in previous studies. Roguing based primarily on size and growth habit of seedlings was effective in removing some, but not all, zygotic seedlings.
… prior studies showed that the frequency of zygotic plants in Swingle seedling populations maybe as high as 18% (Hutchison, 1974; Moore and Castle 1988, Xiang and Roose, 1988 )."
Isozymic Identification of Zygotic Seedlings in Swingle Citrumelo Citrus paradisi × Poncirus trifoliata Nursery and Field Populations, Catalina M. Anderson, William S. Castle, University of Florida, J. AMER. SOC. HORT. SCI. 116(2):322-326, 1991

"The percentage of zygotic seedlings was <10 in C-32 citrange, Gomeri and Indio rough lemon, 10–30 in C.P.B. 4475 citrumelo, Cuban shaddock, Volkamer lemon and Yuma Ponderosa lemon, and >30 in Sacaton and Terra Bella citrumelos, Taiwanica sour orange and Yuma citrange. Small seed had lower germination and seedlings were smaller than those derived from normal seed. In all rootstocks except Yuma citrange, the frequency of zygotics in seedlings from small seed was not significantly different from that in populations derived from normal seed. Zygotic seedlings were generally shorter than nucellar seedlings. The distribution of height of zygotics considerably overlapped that of nucellars in most rootstocks, so that roguing by height alone was relatively ineffective. For the polyembryonic accessions studied, zygotic seedlings are as likely to occur in seeds producing 2 seedlings as in those producing 1 seedling."
Frequency and characteristics of nucellar and zygotic seedlings in 12 citrus rootstocks, C.Xiang, M.L.Roose, Scientia Horticulturae, Volume 37, Issues 1–2, November 1988, pages 47-59

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