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Author Topic: Plinia sp. "Anomaly" new Jabuticaba variety  (Read 13246 times)

FlyingFoxFruits

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Looking good Brad

Yes the red jabo suckers like crazy it's young (especially when it's happy)but it will slow down as it gets older

Just be sure to keep them in check!
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getting there

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my impatience got the best of me, I picked the fruit today, slightly early.

It's definitely a Red jaboticaba seedling...just an unusually precocious, and profusely flowering one I suppose...so much for a chance of it being something else.

It makes sense that the seedlings are so variable from the red jaboticaba , being that it's a hybrid(some fruit about 3yr, some take about 5, and some seem to be more upright, while others are bushier).  The variations are just very subtle, and difficult for the untrained eye to perceive.

now I'm curious to see if the seeds will be true?  fruiting very early and small?  and flowering like crazy?


















« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 04:46:10 PM by FlyingFoxFruits »
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Pan Dulce

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Re: unusually precocious Red jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2015, 11:28:35 PM »
That's awesome!
Andre

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my impatience got the best of me, I picked the fruit today, slightly early.

It's definitely a Red jaboticaba seedling...just an unusually precocious, and profusely flowering one I suppose...so much for a chance of it being something else.

It makes sense that the seedlings are so variable from the red jaboticaba , being that it's a hybrid(some fruit about 3yr, some take about 5, and some seem to be more upright, while others are bushier).  The variations are just very subtle, and difficult for the untrained eye to perceive.

now I'm curious to see if the seeds will be true?  fruiting very early and small?  and flowering like crazy?


















It is very nice Adam to see your evolution progress from a humble fruit collector into a master propagator, an educator and now a crowning achievement, a lifelong pursue as an outstanding future jabo breeder: might the dark force be with you!😆
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Re: unusually precocious Red jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2015, 11:24:51 AM »
That's really cool Adam, a precocious Red Jabo, will be interesting to see what that seed has to offer! Will you be propagating it in future? 8) ;) Willing to trial in Ca. anytime :)

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Re: unusually precocious Red jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2015, 04:28:18 PM »
That's really cool Adam, a precocious Red Jabo, will be interesting to see what that seed has to offer! Will you be propagating it in future? 8) ;) Willing to trial in Ca. anytime :)


thanks Robert!

to be honest, I've seen red jaboticabas that fruited earlier, (maybe by about 6 months), but I have never seen one with such a small caliper, and short stature, with so many gosh darn flowers!

this tree is going buckwild right now, flowering like it's the jaboticabapocalypse .

I'm curious to see if the seeds will bear quickly, and also curious to see if the scions are more precocious than most red jaboticabas.  They normally take about 2-3 yr to start flowering, it would be nice to find one that consistently fruited in 1yr (or less) from grafting.


click the photos and take a close look at the trunk!




 
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 04:32:05 PM by FlyingFoxFruits »
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Re: unusually precocious Red jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2015, 04:35:32 PM »
My red hybrids of that size have nothing.I have noticed this precocity phenomenon can strike many species with odd individuals flowering at crazy small sizes totally unexpectedly.I have seen it with guavas,ambarellas, jackfruit and abiu.

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Re: unusually precocious Red jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2015, 05:54:43 PM »
tried to film a little video of the tree...it was harder than i thought.

oh well, here it is, myrciaria xmas.

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Re: unusually precocious Red jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2015, 07:35:18 PM »
That's wild, Adam. The Grimal I tried at your place today has a flavor superior to the red IMHO - kind of a mix between mango and concord grape.  But, witnessing this tiny plant flowering, it's hard to imagine a jabo variety that could beat the red hybrid in "time to fruition".  Thanks for the plants, conversation, and Merry Christmas!
Nate

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Re: unusually precocious Red jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2015, 03:28:03 PM »
Nate,

glad you could taste the Grimal!

I had one tree out of the bunch that was fruiting early for xmas!  now the rest are catching up...they're blooming now...

but back to this little freakish jabuticabeira....

I've been flip flopping back and forth...not sure if it's the exact same as the red jabo...

now I'm starting to think it might be slightly different than the common Red jaboticaba again!   maybe it's just a mutant, or chance variation (i know it happens, I've witnessed it for sure)

since the plant has fruited, it hasn't produced any foliage for me to take pics of, but I remembered it being different than the red....so today i took pics of the new leaves to compare them up close for the first time...

the new foliage of the common red jaboticaba has nerves that are more impressed, and the side of the leaf is ciliate....whereas, the tree in question has new leaves with hairless edges, and a smooth surface, with discreet venation.

see what I mean?
tree in question

common red jabo

side by side, left common red, right, tree in question (notice the difference in venation, and presence of hair on the side of leaves!)

one more, side by side, left common red, right, tree in question



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Re: unusually precocious Red jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2015, 05:18:20 PM »
Nate,

glad you could taste the Grimal!

I had one tree out of the bunch that was fruiting early for xmas!  now the rest are catching up...they're blooming now...

but back to this little freakish jabuticabeira....

I've been flip flopping back and forth...not sure if it's the exact same as the red jabo...

now I'm starting to think it might be slightly different than the common Red jaboticaba again!   maybe it's just a mutant, or chance variation (i know it happens, I've witnessed it for sure)

since the plant has fruited, it hasn't produced any foliage for me to take pics of, but I remembered it being different than the red....so today i took pics of the new leaves to compare them up close for the first time...

the new foliage of the common red jaboticaba has nerves that are more impressed, and the side of the leaf is ciliate....whereas, the tree in question has new leaves with hairless edges, and a smooth surface, with discreet venation.

see what I mean?
tree in question

common red jabo

side by side, left common red, right, tree in question (notice the difference in venation, and presence of hair on the side of leaves!)

one more, side by side, left common red, right, tree in question



Jaboticabas are not my "playground", but by the images, they look really diferent. Beyond all the diferences you mentioned, it also seems to me (and I might be wrong) that, the stems from the common red are more cilindrical than those from the other one, that seems to me, they have small angles, specially near the nodes, where the petiole starts.

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Re: unusually precocious jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2015, 07:45:45 PM »
Sound like you have quite a number of jabos around AdamIis it very possible it's just a crossbreed/ hybrid

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Re: unusually precocious jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2015, 11:24:22 AM »
since I noticed the first bloom on this tree a few months ago, it's been stepping up the intensity exponentially!

I will keep posting pics of the tree until it stops making blooms...I wonder when it will take a break?


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Re: unusually precocious jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2015, 11:27:07 AM »
since I noticed the first bloom on this tree a few months ago, it's been stepping up the intensity exponentially!

I will keep posting pics of the tree until it stops making blooms...I wonder when it will take a break?


You are a lucky guy Adam! Happy New Year!  ;D

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Re: unusually precocious jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2015, 11:40:35 AM »
Very precocious seedling Wow! Go little seedling go ;) :o 8)

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Re: unusually precocious jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2015, 12:22:44 PM »
Hi Adam,

Do you know more about the history of the Red Jaboticaba? I understood that the cross was a recent one. Are the seeds nucellar? If the Red is indeed a hybrid of two different species of Jaboticaba, and the seeds are not nucellar, it is very normal to see more diversity and variation expressed in the third, fourth and fifth generation of offspring, then in the first, or second of the original cross. This is due to the fact that any combination of genes that paired up as Xx in the original cross - X from one parent, and x from the other, always only express the big X - quality.
Only in later generations of this hybrid crossing again with itself will you see a small percentage of xx combinations surface, together with XX, Xx and xX, which will all look the same. And that goes for every different quality of the two original parents.

So I think you have a valuable little variation in your hands here. Especially if you want to do some breeding work with Jaboticaba's, it will be very useful to cross this one with other species. Because the benefit of getting crosses that have a short flowering cycle will enable you to raise three or four generations - that is three or four controlled crosses, in the time you usually can only do one. And for Jaboticaba's that is very important, since in a human lifetime for some species, you only get the chance to do three crosses.

If you can get this precocious flowering gene into other species of Jaboticaba it may save them from extinction. Just by making Jaboticaba's a more economically interesting plant.

There are also breeders who use a very precocious variety in crosses to create a new hybrid, that, once the short flowering gene has enabled you to improve the variety quickly, by selecting through three or four generations, arrive at a final plant that doesn't have to contain the short flowering gene itself. It just has better fruit and disease resistance.

Good luck!

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Re: unusually precocious jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2016, 02:58:08 PM »
Solko,

i have only heard hearsay accounts, and never any concrete evidence, but the sources in Brazil that I rely on for information say it's a hybrid of M. aureana, and M. cauliflora.

for some reason I remember hearing that is was created in Japan? (maybe I'm crazy?)

I believe the seeds are nucellar (poly).

but they seem extremely stable...with barely any variation noticeable after planting thousands of seeds...maybe 10-20 specimens appear to be unique.

some could be new mutations, or they could also be the result of a chance hybridization...at least 4 species that are capable of hybridizing were fruiting in close proximity.

It would be great to create some hybrids...I just need to buckle down and make another solid attempt!

last time I attempted to hand pollinate Grimal flowers with White pollen, and I was so excited when I got seeds from the fruit...of course all 3 seeds rotted when planted them!!  I must have gave them too much attention!  There must be a bacteria on my hands that spread to the seeds, lol...i kept touching the pot, to pick it up, and look for my germinating seeds... :( 



Hi Adam,

Do you know more about the history of the Red Jaboticaba? I understood that the cross was a recent one. Are the seeds nucellar? If the Red is indeed a hybrid of two different species of Jaboticaba, and the seeds are not nucellar, it is very normal to see more diversity and variation expressed in the third, fourth and fifth generation of offspring, then in the first, or second of the original cross. This is due to the fact that any combination of genes that paired up as Xx in the original cross - X from one parent, and x from the other, always only express the big X - quality.
Only in later generations of this hybrid crossing again with itself will you see a small percentage of xx combinations surface, together with XX, Xx and xX, which will all look the same. And that goes for every different quality of the two original parents.

So I think you have a valuable little variation in your hands here. Especially if you want to do some breeding work with Jaboticaba's, it will be very useful to cross this one with other species. Because the benefit of getting crosses that have a short flowering cycle will enable you to raise three or four generations - that is three or four controlled crosses, in the time you usually can only do one. And for Jaboticaba's that is very important, since in a human lifetime for some species, you only get the chance to do three crosses.

If you can get this precocious flowering gene into other species of Jaboticaba it may save them from extinction. Just by making Jaboticaba's a more economically interesting plant.

There are also breeders who use a very precocious variety in crosses to create a new hybrid, that, once the short flowering gene has enabled you to improve the variety quickly, by selecting through three or four generations, arrive at a final plant that doesn't have to contain the short flowering gene itself. It just has better fruit and disease resistance.

Good luck!
« Last Edit: January 02, 2016, 02:59:45 PM by FlyingFoxFruits »
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Solko

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Re: unusually precocious jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2016, 09:36:28 AM »
Adam, thank you for the detailed answer and information!

I live in a climate just a little bit too cold for Jaboticaba's and the learning curve concerning watering, soil PH and fertilizing is steep. This has resulted in me killing off more Jaboticaba's then maybe any other Myrtaceae I try to grow, unfortunately.

But the Red's have done the best and I definitely see some variation in growth habit as well as vigor in these seedlings. I wondered wether that was because of my climate and care. It might also be that they do exhibit some variety. I haven't got any of them to fruit, so I couldn't tell you about those qualiities yet.

It is pretty incredible that you did get seeds from that cross. Congratulations and I hoppe you will try again, now that you know that they can produce seeds!
From my (climate) point of view I would love it if you would succeed in making a cross between the Red and a Trunciflora. Both are very cold tolerant, but might take two different genetic pathways to generate their cold tolerance. So there could be a chance that if their genes combine, you would create a super cold tolerant Jabo, that stacks both mechanisms on top of each other.

In any case, for any kind of breeding goal, it is so much better, when you have a precocious variation. Here is a link to a nice article about that, I hope you enjoy it!


http://www.goodfruit.com/on-a-fastrack/



Good luck with your hybridization projects,

Solko

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Re: unusually precocious jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2016, 02:15:49 PM »
Hey Adam,

I wonder if there are any chance beneficial organisms such as bacteria or mycorrhizal fungi in the soil of that precocious fruiting Red Jab seedling? It couldn't hurt to take some of that soil and innoculate a few of your other containers.

In my previous work as a researcher, our team went out on expeditions to find anything unusual relating to food crops then we would take samples from the plant and rhizosphere to isolate and sequence the DNA in order to find novel organisms that may benefit plants.

I'm guessing it's probably genetics that's playing the major role of your plants early fruiting but it would be cool if we discovered a novel organism in your potting soil that has a symbiotic relationship with Jabs. Lychees are just one example of a fruit crop that greatly benefit from a symbiotic relationship with microorganisms.

If it is mainly genetics that is causing the precocity, horizontal/lateral gene transfer via using this precocious Jab as a rootstock or inter stock may induce precocity in scions grafted onto it.

Simon

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Re: unusually precocious jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2016, 03:13:20 PM »
Simon,

that sounds very interesting.  I know there must be a special biological/chemical cocktail that makes them thrive.

but i'm not sure if this is the case with this seedling...

I had 3 seedlings (all from same source) they were all growing in the same kiddie pool, with a 25 gal Red jabo that's fruiting. (so 4 plants all in one big dish)

Only one of the 3 seedlings has decided to fruit so early...when i noticed it had flowers, I put it into a 10 gal pot (from a 3gal)....the siblings of the precocious tree have yet to bear, and are just a little smaller...

I would think that any beneficial microorganisms would have populated all the cointainers in the same kiddie pool?  I consistently flooded them, so they were in a big communal bowl of soup.

Hey Adam,

I wonder if there are any chance beneficial organisms such as bacteria or mycorrhizal fungi in the soil of that precocious fruiting Red Jab seedling? It couldn't hurt to take some of that soil and innoculate a few of your other containers.

In my previous work as a researcher, our team went out on expeditions to find anything unusual relating to food crops then we would take samples from the plant and rhizosphere to isolate and sequence the DNA in order to find novel organisms that may benefit plants.

I'm guessing it's probably genetics that's playing the major role of your plants early fruiting but it would be cool if we discovered a novel organism in your potting soil that has a symbiotic relationship with Jabs. Lychees are just one example of a fruit crop that greatly benefit from a symbiotic relationship with microorganisms.

If it is mainly genetics that is causing the precocity, horizontal/lateral gene transfer via using this precocious Jab as a rootstock or inter stock may induce precocity in scions grafted onto it.

Simon
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Re: unusually precocious jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2016, 08:23:55 AM »
Sounds like it's more genetics causing the early fruiting. I still can't get over how thin the diameter of the fruiting wood is.

Simon

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Re: unusually precocious jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #47 on: February 09, 2016, 06:17:00 PM »
the greenhouse got a little cold (about 35F briefly)...and the little tree aborted some flowers, but it has more and more coming.

so far fruit set has been limited (I believe because of tree juvenility, and growing conditions...during winter months, when the tree is usually somewhat dormant)..it's set 3 or 4 fruits, but only one has made it to fruition (planted the seed immediately!)

I believe fruit production will increase this year as the weather warms up.

but so far, compared to the red jaboticaba, this seedling seems to flower twice as much!  Maybe that will change?  Maybe it will take a break??  I will keep the group posted for sure!!!



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Re: unusually precocious jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2016, 08:29:30 PM »
here is the tree as of today:

(it still hasn't taken a break since it started flowering)...Hoping it sets some more fruits now that the weather is warming up.






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Re: unusually precocious jaboticaba seedling, less than 3 ft tall
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2016, 09:14:48 PM »
Awesome update Adam, do you notice any difference in taste between this Red Jab vs a normal Red Jab?

Simon

 

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