Author Topic: Side veneer vs side cleft  (Read 2163 times)

Goyo626

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Side veneer vs side cleft
« on: September 09, 2018, 09:51:34 AM »
Im getting ready to graft mangoes for the first time from budwood I got from JF (thanks). I'm not completely new to grafting, Ive done apples, plums, and peaches, but i usually stick to the brutally effective cleft graft. After reading this forum and watching tons of youtube videos im thinking of using a side cleft graft or a veneer graft.

The problem from my point is its hard to tell from the videos what is the difference between the cut on the rootstock between both techniques.
 Can anyone with knowledge of both, techniques detail what are the differences, if any?

Which technique would be more successful for a first time mango grafter? What kind of success, if any can I expect?

Thanks.



achetadomestica

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Re: Side veneer vs side cleft
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2018, 11:34:37 AM »
I just did 2 veneer grafts of Annona scions. I looked on youtube and watched
a few videos and it went real well? I learned allot from a video on cleft grafting.
It emphasized how you line up the cambium layers. If you have several scions and
rootstock you may opt to try different techniques?
Good Luck!

JF

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Re: Side veneer vs side cleft
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2018, 12:23:53 PM »
Hey Vince thanks. I’ve had higher success w veneer but not by much. if yr comfortable w cleft grafts stick to it. With respect to success, the scions are fresh and we are in the final weeks where I stop grafting mangos. The trees are in their final flush for the year so this is a good time. Bon chance!

CA Hockey

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Re: Side veneer vs side cleft
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2018, 12:50:25 PM »
Good luck. I have most success with veneer or modified veneer (a deeper cut that starts las a veneer but cuts towards middle of branch like a cleft).

The advantage of a veneer is you can adjust the width of the cut on the receiving branch to match the thickness or cut of the scion. With some really thin scions when I’ve only had thick rootstock I’ve even made the cut double wide on the rootstock and out both scions in side by side with acceptable results (one of the scions would take).

Takes practice for sure but for mangos when they are actively pushing I’ve found them to be somewhat forgiving. I typically shoot for sizing my scions just a hair smaller in diameter than the rootstock cut so that when it heals it is rounded as a while and doesn’t protrude. I seem to have faster healing that way and better take.

Can take pictures later

Goyo626

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Re: Side veneer vs side cleft
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2018, 12:54:47 PM »
Thanks for the responses.

Viraldonutz

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Re: Side veneer vs side cleft
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2020, 08:12:49 PM »
I have the same basic question.  What's the difference between side cleft and veneer?  Is it just a little flap of bark at the bottom?
--Jake

Viraldonutz

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Re: Side veneer vs side cleft
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2020, 08:46:59 PM »
Okay, so maybe I found my own answer...

It seems than veneer grafting only removes the bark from the rootstock and scion, and does not remove wood.

Side cleft grafting is an actual notch into the wood on the side of the rootstock, while the scion gets trimmed to a sharp wedge (just like with a top cleft graft).

Can anyone else confirm/disavow this?  What are the strengths/weaknesses of each?
--Jake

Finca La Isla

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Re: Side veneer vs side cleft
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2020, 09:13:28 PM »
To me side veneer does cut into the wood but superficially at the same depth for the length of the cut.  Side cleft has a different angle that works more into the rootstock.  I watched a video on YouTube done by Truly Tropical that shows the side cleft very clearly.
The side cleft interests me but my go to graft is still the cleft.  Each grafter has to go with what works best for him/her.  I like the way the cleft graft develops. 
When I ask other nursery people why they use side veneer instead most say that if the graft fails then re grafting is more straight forward.
Peter

shaneatwell

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Re: Side veneer vs side cleft
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2020, 10:00:56 PM »
I found this super useful

https://youtu.be/PEKNrnsuuW0
Shane

Johnny Eat Fruit

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Re: Side veneer vs side cleft
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2020, 10:26:51 PM »
I have tried every type of graft (cleft, veneer, bark, combo) at my location and in the end, just do cleft grafts the vast majority of times.

Mango grafts are much harder to do than Apple Grafts by the way, much lower takes.

Good Luck

Johnny

Viraldonutz

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Re: Side veneer vs side cleft
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2020, 01:45:37 AM »
To me side veneer does cut into the wood but superficially at the same depth for the length of the cut.  Side cleft has a different angle that works more into the rootstock.  I watched a video on YouTube done by Truly Tropical that shows the side cleft very clearly.
The side cleft interests me but my go to graft is still the cleft.  Each grafter has to go with what works best for him/her.  I like the way the cleft graft develops. 
When I ask other nursery people why they use side veneer instead most say that if the graft fails then re grafting is more straight forward.
Peter

If the side cleft fails, do you just try again lower down?  Does that mean I should try it higher up at first?
--Jake

spaugh

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Re: Side veneer vs side cleft
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2020, 01:48:36 AM »
I've gone to doing a lot off offset clefts.  Not sure if its same as side cleft.  If the pieces are mismatched just line it up on one side.  Seems to work well on most types of trees.  And it allows you to forget about matching scions, just cut the branch way back and stick it down low. 

Did some mango grafts today like this
« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 01:50:49 AM by spaugh »
Brad Spaugh

Viraldonutz

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Re: Side veneer vs side cleft
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2020, 01:50:52 AM »
And it allows you to forget about matching scions, just cut the branch way back and stick it down low.

Can you explain what you mean here?

Ah, you mean top cleft grafts that are off-center?  That intimidates me a bit more...

If the scion doesn't take, what do you do?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 01:52:26 AM by Viraldonutz »
--Jake

spaugh

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Re: Side veneer vs side cleft
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2020, 02:14:51 AM »
If the graft fails you just let the tree regrow.  Im doing this on large trees so they come right back. 

I get pretty good results though, this time of year they will take.  Scions come off my other tree and go straight onto another tree.
Brad Spaugh

Viraldonutz

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Re: Side veneer vs side cleft
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2020, 03:05:01 AM »
Did some mango grafts today like this


What do you do to seal them off?  Do you just wrap the whole thing in parafilm then?
--Jake

spaugh

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Re: Side veneer vs side cleft
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2020, 03:14:38 AM »
Buddy tape on the scion then presco texas flagging tape on the union.  I'm getting away from using grafting tape on the joints if possible.  It's too much hassle to remove.  The flagging tape pulls tighter and comes off easy. 
Brad Spaugh

Finca La Isla

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Re: Side veneer vs side cleft
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2020, 01:12:21 PM »
Yes, if the side veneer graft doesn’t take you can just stick another on just below it without waiting for the rootstock to regrow. A lot of avocadoes are grafted like that here but the initial growth is not straight up and can lead to an undesirable shape on some trees.
Peter

beicadad

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Re: Side veneer vs side cleft
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2020, 03:58:55 PM »
Did some mango grafts today like this


What do you do to seal them off?  Do you just wrap the whole thing in parafilm then?

For size mismatch (scion smaller than rootstock), I often do side veneer or modified cleft. With side veneer I don’t need to cut off the top until the graft has taken, and I can graft multiple scions on the rootstocks. I also think for some plants it’s helpful to have something on top of the rootstock drawing sap/nutrients while the graft is healing.

I prefer modified cleft to regular cleft for mismatched scion since the former gives you more cambium contact.

https://youtu.be/3nlsAk3nnAY (8:40 for modified cleft)