Sell seeds Plinia rivularis , popular name Cambucá-peixoto or guaburiti

[kgknight]

Mike that pic you posted is what my "rivularis" seeds from ricardo look like.  Ill get my pics of the seedlings up tomorrow for you guys, I have been working and haven't had time.  But my seedlings look nothing like what adam, luc and ed have posted.   

[FlyingFoxFruits]

Saff that statement is a leap and more than once I have seen hair pulling and finger pointing over identifying plants and animals and drawing on references to text books.There have been mistakes in reference books, species split up and life stages not described that add to confusion. I have been in taxonomic tussles with animals that had unexpected outcomes.
I'm sure Lorenzi went back to type specimens for the species and the genus  for confirmation rather than swallow what is generally accepted. There is too little information about seedlings and juvenile form to rule out either as the same as the described mature tree. There is no information on varieties, confusing species, forms etc. We don't have photos of known mature trees linked to seedling they produce.
 Ricardo taking a picture of a mature tree producing these seedlings when he can would shed more light. The last pic you posted is very different alright and looks as much like a E.uniflora as a cambuca and doesn't have irrefutable identification or origin so the jury is still out.
I was not saying Lorenzi is wrong.

u r making this more confusing than it should be.

the seeds offered by Ricardo are simply not Plinia rivularis.

(i could tell as soon as I saw the seeds)...they were just too large.

here is another reference I found online with the proper ID and a detailed description of P. rivularis.

notice how the leaves hang downward...and the mid vein is convex..

http://uruguay1.blogspot.com/2012/01/baporeti-plinia-rivularis.html?m=1

[Mike T]

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?ref=SERP&br=ro&mkt=en-AU&dl=en&lp=PT_EN&a=http%3a%2f%2fmudasfrutiferas.org.br%2findex.php%3foption%3dcom_content%26view%3darticle%26id%3d74%26Itemid%3d71
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?ref=SERP&br=ro&mkt=en-AU&dl=en&lp=PT_EN&a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.wikiaves.com%2fflora%3aguaburiti_ou_cambuca-peixoto
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?ref=SERP&br=ro&mkt=en-AU&dl=en&lp=PT_EN&a=http%3a%2f%2fibflorestas.org.br%2floja%2freview%2fproduct%2flist%2fid%2f34%2f
Maybe Saff but in the 3rd reference here there is a picture of a seedling that might help.Red new growth is also a sticking point.

[sanitarium]

seedlings of p. rivularis, seeds from Brazil





seedlings of Oscars/Ricbitar p. rivularis





the new growth is not red/pinkish at all..

[edself65]

Nice photos Daniel showing the difference in the seedlings from 2 different sources. I see that the seedlings you have from Another Brazilian source look like the photo in Brazilian Fruits & Culitvated Exotics by Harri Lorenzi (Author), Luis Bacher (Author), Marco Lacerda (Author), Sergio Sartori (Author). I also have seedlings from Another Brazilian source that looks like your top photos not like the ones you purchased through Ricardo. I would think that if the photos and descriptions were wrong in this book someone would have all ready pointed out the issue since this book has been around since 2006. I have more faith in these 4 author's work than someone buying and reselling seeds who could never actually provide a photo of the source tree. So I think the real issue is to figure out what we were all sold as Plinia rivularis.Also I know there is several Brazilian growers and collectors who are on this forum. If these "not" Plinia rivularis seeds that we purchased and posted photos of were the correct plant all they have to say is these are the correct plants. I know sometimes mistakes are made and seeds get mixed up. So if someone would just admit that we can move on to solve the mystery.  Maybe we will eventually figure out what we purchased.

Thanks,

Ed

Photo of "not" Plinia rivularis purchased from Ricardo:

[FlyingFoxFruits]

Daniel,

thanks for sharing pics.

you have the real deal rivularis.

it's very simple to properly identify them...the real rivularis has a mid vein that is prominent (convex) and slightly pilose (just barely covered with fine hairs)...as described in Brazilian Fruits (and the blog from Uruguay.)

the plant Ricardo offered does not have these features!!  The mid vein is discreet, and hairless...so it must be something else.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

so is there anyone who's participated in this discussion who still thinks that there is a chance the seeds offered here could be the real P. rivularis?

Oscar? MikeT? Ricardo?

[kgknight]

I think it's pretty hard to argue that it is still p. rivularis based of all this information and discussion.  Hopefully Ricardo has an idea to make this right with all the people who bought seeds from him. I have purchased seeds from him 3 separate times before and there's never been an issue.  I think the institute might have made an error. Maybe offering seeds of a different species would make amends?

[Mike T]

Evidence is mounting alright and it is obvious the red flushing,ribbed,non smooth seedlings that look like E.uniflora are different from the ones that look like little soursops.No one really disagreed with that just some folk were keeping their powder dry until a photo of the latter at a mature stage could be produced.

[fruitlovers]

so is there anyone who's participated in this discussion who still thinks that there is a chance the seeds offered here could be the real P. rivularis?

Oscar? MikeT? Ricardo?

The only thing right now that is certain is that there are 2 different plants being called Plinia rivularis. I would think that obviously one of them isn't Plinia rivularis because the 2 plants just look too different from each other for both to be variations of Plinia rivularis. But the fact that one looks like a Eugenia doesn't mean much because another synonym for Plinia rivularis is Eugenia rivularis. Also size of seed doesn't mean much because that can vary quite a bit from tree to tree. My guess right now would be that the plant with droopy leaves is the real Plinia rivularis, just because it looks a lot more like Plinia edulis than does the plant from seeds of Ricardo. But there could be 2 plants with very similar looking fruits that has caused this confusion. Anyway, i think it still needs to get cleared up. I don't think confusion was caused by Ricardo because obviously the seeds of the plants he is selling are really called Plinia rivularis in Brazil, though it's very possible that's due to a confusion somewhere. It wouldn't be the first time this has happened. Think for example how many different latin names the yellow jaboticaba(cabelluda) was called before it was cleared up that it was really E. glazioviana? Remember previous names of Eugenia tomentosa and Myrciaria glomerata? Or all the wrong latin names that have been concocted for the achachairu?

[fruitlovers]

Plinia rivularis also appears in Lorenzi's book Brazilian Trees, Volume 2, page 279. There is a photo of the seeds there, and they are shown to be nearly 1 cm.+ wide. Also note that the photo in that book shows the fruits to be yellow instead of red. The same photo is used of the leaves as in Brazilian Fruit book. But there is also a photo of the tree and bark.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

Plinia rivularis also appears in Lorenzi's book Brazilian Trees, Volume 2, page 279. There is a photo of the seeds there, and they are shown to be nearly 1 cm.+ wide. Also note that the photo in that book shows the fruits to be yellow instead of red. The same photo is used of the leaves as in Brazilian Fruit book. But there is also a photo of the tree and bark.

here is the description from the Uraguay website....

"the fruit is a red, globose drupe, 1-2 cm in diameter, sulcate, crowned by remnants of the calyx lobes, puberulous to glabrous, and edible. Within there are 1 or 2 seeds, light brown and smooth, 8 mm long x 6 mm wide."

seeds from Ricardo were much larger than 8mm..or even 1cm

(I'm wonder what other sources you can find on the Internet, with the same plant as Ricardo?  I'm betting he got seeds from the Institute of Brazilian Forestry, and they are the main source of this confusion!)

[Soren]

so is there anyone who's participated in this discussion who still thinks that there is a chance the seeds offered here could be the real P. rivularis?

Oscar? MikeT? Ricardo?

The only thing right now that is certain is that there are 2 different plants being called Plinia rivularis. I would think that obviously one of them isn't Plinia rivularis because the 2 plants just look too different from each other for both to be variations of Plinia rivularis. But the fact that one looks like a Eugenia doesn't mean much because another synonym for Plinia rivularis is Eugenia rivularis. Also size of seed doesn't mean much because that can vary quite a bit from tree to tree. My guess right now would be that the plant with droopy leaves is the real Plinia rivularis, just because it looks a lot more like Plinia edulis than does the plant from seeds of Ricardo. But there could be 2 plants with very similar looking fruits that has caused this confusion. Anyway, i think it still needs to get cleared up. I don't think confusion was caused by Ricardo because obviously the seeds of the plants he is selling are really called Plinia rivularis in Brazil, though it's very possible that's due to a confusion somewhere. It wouldn't be the first time this has happened. Think for example how many different latin names the yellow jaboticaba(cabelluda) was called before it was cleared up that it was really E. glazioviana? Remember previous names of Eugenia tomentosa and Myrciaria glomerata? Or all the wrong latin names that have been concocted for the achachairu?

Or confusion identifying the correct Bunchosia spp. and Pachira spp. to add a few more...

[fruitlovers]

Plinia rivularis also appears in Lorenzi's book Brazilian Trees, Volume 2, page 279. There is a photo of the seeds there, and they are shown to be nearly 1 cm.+ wide. Also note that the photo in that book shows the fruits to be yellow instead of red. The same photo is used of the leaves as in Brazilian Fruit book. But there is also a photo of the tree and bark.

here is the description from the Uraguay website....

"the fruit is a red, globose drupe, 1-2 cm in diameter, sulcate, crowned by remnants of the calyx lobes, puberulous to glabrous, and edible. Within there are 1 or 2 seeds, light brown and smooth, 8 mm long x 6 mm wide."

seeds from Ricardo were much larger than 8mm..or even 1cm

(I'm wonder what other sources you can find on the Internet, with the same plant as Ricardo?  I'm betting he got seeds from the Institute of Brazilian Forestry, and they are the main source of this confusion!)

Adam, you should really get Brazilian Trees 3 volume set books at some point.
Those seeds from Ricardo did not come from Institute of Brazilian Forestry. The description in Lorenzi's Brazilian Trees book is different than yours, describing the fruits as either red or orange: "Fruit a globose, glabrous, smooth berry, red or orange colored when ripe, with 1-2 seeds." The photo in Brazilian Trees book looks more yellow than orange to me. Also very disappointing to see that fruit is almost same size as the seed. In other words, not much at all to eat. 

[FlyingFoxFruits]

that description is not much different...I'm wondering if the foliage pictured in brazilian trees vol 3 has the same appearance as Brazilian fruits? with the red new growth?  and leaves that hang downward? 

or is the foliage appearance like ricardos seedlings?

[fruitlovers]

that description is not much different...I'm wondering if the foliage pictured in brazilian trees vol 3 has the same appearance as Brazilian fruits? with the red new growth?  and leaves that hang downward? 

or is the foliage appearance like ricardos seedlings?

Adam, like i said in previous post, the photos of the foliage is same exact photo used in both books. But it doesn't seem to me that the new foliage in those photos hangs down, nor is it red.  It is upright an looks brownish-green.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

Well...it's really not that confusing...

the leaves have convex midrib with fine pubescence, and pink-ish new growth, with an arragnement that is not upright (positioned like the ones in Brazilian fruits and Brazilian Trees Vol.3).

the plants Ricardo sent don't have these features.

seems like the only people still in question about these seedlings, are those who don't have the real plant on hand to compare.

that description is not much different...I'm wondering if the foliage pictured in brazilian trees vol 3 has the same appearance as Brazilian fruits? with the red new growth?  and leaves that hang downward? 

or is the foliage appearance like ricardos seedlings?

Adam, like i said in previous post, the photos of the foliage is same exact photo used in both books. But it doesn't seem to me that the new foliage in those photos hangs down, nor is it red.  It is upright an looks brownish-green.

[fruitlovers]

Well...it's really not that confusing...

the leaves have convex midrib with fine pubescence, and pink-ish new growth, with an arragnement that is not upright (positioned like the ones in Brazilian fruits and Brazilian Trees Vol.3).

the plants Ricardo sent don't have these features.

seems like the only people still in question about these seedlings, are those who don't have the real plant on hand to compare.

that description is not much different...I'm wondering if the foliage pictured in brazilian trees vol 3 has the same appearance as Brazilian fruits? with the red new growth?  and leaves that hang downward? 

or is the foliage appearance like ricardos seedlings?

Adam, like i said in previous post, the photos of the foliage is same exact photo used in both books. But it doesn't seem to me that the new foliage in those photos hangs down, nor is it red.  It is upright an looks brownish-green.

I think you are jumping the gun with your certainty that you have the "real" plant. You may be right, but it's really to early to tell for sure. You base it mostly on Lorenzi books. But Lorenzi has made mistakes before in his books, not a lot, but some. You pointed out some of his mistakes yourself in some of your previous posts, as did I. For example, Lorenzi calls achachairu Rheedia laterifolia. That is an obvious mistake as there is no such name recorded. Whatever the case may be, it seems that the Plinia rivularis pictured by Lorenzi in Brazilian Trees is a very tiny fruit, about same size as the seed, with very little pulp. Whatever the fruit is being sent by Ricardo hopefully is better and larger.
BTW, photos of Plinia rivularis are in Vol. 2, not 3, Brazilian Trees.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

Well...it's really not that confusing...

the leaves have convex midrib with fine pubescence, and pink-ish new growth, with an arragnement that is not upright (positioned like the ones in Brazilian fruits and Brazilian Trees Vol.3).

the plants Ricardo sent don't have these features.

seems like the only people still in question about these seedlings, are those who don't have the real plant on hand to compare.

that description is not much different...I'm wondering if the foliage pictured in brazilian trees vol 3 has the same appearance as Brazilian fruits? with the red new growth?  and leaves that hang downward? 

or is the foliage appearance like ricardos seedlings?

Adam, like i said in previous post, the photos of the foliage is same exact photo used in both books. But it doesn't seem to me that the new foliage in those photos hangs down, nor is it red.  It is upright an looks brownish-green.

I think you are jumping the gun with your certainty that you have the "real" plant. You may be right, but it's really to early to tell for sure. You base it mostly on Lorenzi books. But Lorenzi has made mistakes before in his books, not a lot, but some. You pointed out some of his mistakes yourself in some of your previous posts, as did I. For example, Lorenzi calls achachairu Rheedia laterifolia. That is an obvious mistake as there is no such name recorded. Whatever the case may be, it seems that the Plinia rivularis pictured by Lorenzi in Brazilian Trees is a very tiny fruit, about same size as the seed, with very little pulp. Whatever the fruit is being sent by Ricardo hopefully is better and larger.
BTW, photos of Plinia rivularis are in Vol. 2, not 3, Brazilian Trees.

No, I'm not jumping the gun.  I'm certain these plants are not P. rivularis.  I don't think the book is wrong, I can understand some confusion among the exotic species listed in the book, but the natives ones are well understood by the authors.

I think it's bold to argue that Lorenzi has the wrong plant listed in his book as P. rivularis..or that they are confused about this subject....and to assume that the seeds from Ricardo are somehow an alternate form, or even the true P. rivularis.

I've known all along that the fruits are small for P. rivularis, so it's not disappointing news for me.  I'm most concerned with the flavor, and don't mind eating lots of small fruits, or juicing them.

Honestly, I think that P. rivularis is a beautiful plant (because of the foliage and growth habit), much more than Ricardo's seedlings....and I want to grow the one that looks like the pictures in Brazilian fruits.

[fruitlovers]

Well...it's really not that confusing...

the leaves have convex midrib with fine pubescence, and pink-ish new growth, with an arragnement that is not upright (positioned like the ones in Brazilian fruits and Brazilian Trees Vol.3).

the plants Ricardo sent don't have these features.

seems like the only people still in question about these seedlings, are those who don't have the real plant on hand to compare.

that description is not much different...I'm wondering if the foliage pictured in brazilian trees vol 3 has the same appearance as Brazilian fruits? with the red new growth?  and leaves that hang downward? 

or is the foliage appearance like ricardos seedlings?

Adam, like i said in previous post, the photos of the foliage is same exact photo used in both books. But it doesn't seem to me that the new foliage in those photos hangs down, nor is it red.  It is upright an looks brownish-green.

I think you are jumping the gun with your certainty that you have the "real" plant. You may be right, but it's really to early to tell for sure. You base it mostly on Lorenzi books. But Lorenzi has made mistakes before in his books, not a lot, but some. You pointed out some of his mistakes yourself in some of your previous posts, as did I. For example, Lorenzi calls achachairu Rheedia laterifolia. That is an obvious mistake as there is no such name recorded. Whatever the case may be, it seems that the Plinia rivularis pictured by Lorenzi in Brazilian Trees is a very tiny fruit, about same size as the seed, with very little pulp. Whatever the fruit is being sent by Ricardo hopefully is better and larger.
BTW, photos of Plinia rivularis are in Vol. 2, not 3, Brazilian Trees.

No, I'm not jumping the gun.  I'm certain these plants are not P. rivularis.  I don't think the book is wrong, I can understand some confusion among the exotic species listed in the book, but the natives ones are well understood by the authors.

I think it's bold to argue that Lorenzi has the wrong plant listed in his book as P. rivularis..or that they are confused about this subject....and to assume that the seeds from Ricardo are somehow an alternate form, or even the true P. rivularis.

I've known all along that the fruits are small for P. rivularis, so it's not disappointing news for me.  I'm most concerned with the flavor, and don't mind eating lots of small fruits, or juicing them.

Honestly, I think that P. rivularis is a beautiful plant (because of the foliage and growth habit), much more than Ricardo's seedlings....and I want to grow the one that looks like the pictures in Brazilian fruits.

Didn't you argue in a previous thread that Lorenzi made several errors on native Myrciarias? OK you can be certain if you like.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

to be honest Oscar, I don't remember posting about Lorenzi making mistakes related to myrciaria identification...except that the description of the sizes was inconsistent when comparing Brazilian fruits to Brazilian trees...other than that, I can't think of any other discrepancies.

I respect that you doubt my certainty (MikeT as well), it's wise not to just take someone's word for it.

but for the last time...yes,  I'm certain the seeds offered here were not P. rivularis.

I won't harp on the issue anymore.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

One last thing I must say...

by no means am I trying to personally attack Ricardo!

I trust him as a seed seller, and would definitely buy from him again....he has an excellent selection of seeds, and a good reputation for sending viable material.

He did not do this intentionally...and I don't think the chances of such a mix up happening again is likely.

Also this is a very confusing family of plants...and I have had the same thing happen to me in the past, where I sold something that was improperly identified.

[sanitarium]

Maybe the seeds are the plinia renatiana : "leaves dark green, shiny and smooth on its upper face. The fruits are relatively large (approximately 4 cm in diameter), yellowish skin and fairly rough surface"

here is link : http://translate.google.sk/translate?hl=sk&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fe-jardim.blogspot.sk%2F2009%2F12%2Fconheca-o-cambuca-rugoso-novidade-do.html


this was already posted in antoher threat but it is about p. rivularis from the same authors:
http://translate.google.sk/translate?hl=sk&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fe-jardim.blogspot.pt%2F2008%2F12%2Fpisando-em-guaburitis.html

[FlyingFoxFruits]

wow Daniel...you do some excellent research...and found some great information.

the plant in question does look more like P. renatiana, based on foliage appearance....but the size of the fruit is much larger than I would expect....4cm is closer to the size of a large jabuticaba, or small cambuca.

lol...now u have me interested in this species.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

lol...when i google search "Plinia" all i get is pics of this granny tranny.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PX5IqZ6Doxs/TIeLErgCprI/AAAAAAAAAEk/MQzPQ8oCnPo/s1600/Plinia.jpg