The Tropical Fruit Forum

I've read that you don't need to and shouldn't add any soil amendments when you are planting a citrus tree in the ground.  But my soil doesn't hold moisture that well and I end up watering a lot in the long hot summers.  Soil tests show that I have sandy silt and/or silty sand type soil.  And my own jar soil tests usually don't show any(or very little) organic matter.   So I'm thinking of trying what I've been doing with my vegetable plantings, adding peat moss to the soil.  For the vegetables I've also been adding compost from my compost piles when it's available.

I'd like to hear some opinions about this, especially why it might not be advisable.

John 

 

I don't know how easy it will be to find 30% shade cloth, most that I've seen at stores and nurseries is between 50% and 70%, with 60% being the most common.

If you have a Harbor Freight nearby, go check out what they call Mesh Weave Tarp.  I've been using it for a couple of years, and buy more every time they have a 25%off sale.  I think it's 65% shade cloth, very good quality, comes in four or 5 sizes, has a reinforced hem with grommets.  I'm using the 8' x 16' size and it's $30 regular price so I've been paying $23-24 for it.  Harbor Freight has more sales than a dog has fleas.  Get on their mailing list and wait for the 20-25% off coupons.

https://www.harborfreight.com/search?q=mesh%20tarp

When I've ordered previously, the UCR (CCPP) budwood prices were $0.75 per bud.  And although it is still listed as this on one website, when I try to place an order, on their revamped order form site, the price is $1.50 per bud.  Which makes it too high for me given my low percentage of takes when bud grafting.
 
Could someone confirm this new price level?  I've tried emailing them twice but no one is answering.

John

Aren't you talking about buds in forks?  What I've read here is that the first 2-4 nodes on the branch (that is cut off to become scionwood) are the blind ones.  You count from the attachment point of this branch/cutting.  So if the CCPP is giving you cuttings that include the end that was attached to the trunk, or to a branch, then you are getting 2-4 blind buds.  If they are deliberately counting 4 buds away from the trunk or branch and then making the cut, they are giving you a cutting without blind buds.  That's how I'm understanding it.

I've been exchanging emails with Rock Christiano at the CCPP.  I'll ask him about this.

 

I'm curious to know if the bud sticks that we order from UCR are entire branches, including blind buds, or if they make their cuts to avoid these buds.

Thanks everyone for the ideas.  This Fuerte was kept in the container (a deep 9x16" black plastic from Stuewe) for at least two years.  It flushed and bloomed(a bit) last year but didn't set any fruit.  The tree came from C&M Nursery in Nipono.  It's planted on the side of a steep hill on a 8'x4' ledge behind a small retaining wall I built. About 5 feet below it is an Oak tree (probably scrub Oak) that shades the tree from the hot late afternoon sun...that's why I planted the Fuerte in this spot.

Soil tests were done five years ago, the holes dug 4-5' deep,  and showed silty sand and sandy silt.  No mention of organic matter.  And when I've done the settling soil test in a jar of water, there is very little organic matter, and usually just one layer of what I'd guess is sandy silt. Or silty sand.

When I planted it in June this year 2018 (on a small mound but it's settled now to ground level.) the root system looked good and there was a lot of it in the middle and lower part of the container.  There is a 2-3' diameter stucco wire (high quality chicken wire 1" holes) cage around the roots because this is a gopher hill it's planted on.  Right now there are no gophers present in the hill and no sign of tunnels pointed at this tree.  I believe I added some compost to the soil but judging by how often I have to water, not enough.  A few months after I planted it I spread bark mulch around the base, but not up to the base.  A month ago I pulled some o it back because I couldn't see the ground when I was watering the tree.

The trunk is protected from the sun by the cardboard that came with the tree and a piece of shade cloth I draped in front of the trunk.  The tree itself is inside a five foot high, 4 foot diameter deer cage.  Since I planted the tree I've had some 60% shade cloth hug on the front of the deer cage so most of the summer sun has been filtered through the shade cloth.  Windwise, on the north side of the tree there are some thick trees that block a lot of the common Santa Ana winds we get this time of the year.  The sea breeze (from the S and SW) usually isn't very strong up here (1100 ft elevation) in Topanga Canyon.  The strong winds are the NE-NW Santa Ana's and they haven't affected the tree at all so far.  Grasswise, grass does not grow in this sandy soil without lot's of water.  So the only things that grow are native weeds and plants I've planted and watered.  I water by hand.  Yesterday I let the hose run for 15 minutes to the base of the tree, filling the mulch basin I built around it. Previous watering was three days ago, and yesterday the tree was drooping before I watered it.  It had picked up when I checked it today.

This tree hasn't flushed any new growth since I planted it, but the leaves look healthy and I don't think it's dropped any.  It just droops if I don't water every 2 or 3 days.  And the soil feels moist even when it's drooping, so the soil isn't drying out that much in the interval.

I like the idea of planting some hairy vetch if the roots would put organic matter into the soil...did I understand that correctly?

Jack from Nipono...do you know how many gallons of water each day you give each avocado trees in the summer, and how hot does it get there?  Summer's here give us 90-95F weather sometimes until Sept-Oct.  It's been cool-ish lately, the days 80-85F, nights in the low 50's this week but low 60's the past two weeks.

Top dress with a foot of compost?  That's a lot of compost...there are no worms in this dry soil, but I have red worms in my compost pile.  Will they really move the compost down into the soil?  That would be worth trying.

I haven't fertilized the tree since I planted it, and I did so sparingly when it was in the container.  I'd like to hear some suggestions about this.  I do have Osmocote Plus which is slow release.  I also have Jack's Citrus fertilizer, and Miracle Gro, and Ammonium Sulfate, and Mir-Acid.

I hope I've covered all the questions...

Fruitlovers, do you remember the mesh size of the hardware cloth you used when you were living in S. Calif.  It's easy to find 100 ft rolls of  1/2" mesh, but much harder to find larger sizes.  I'd like to find some 3/4" or 1" mesh hardware cloth.

ScottR, check out Stucco wire.  You can find it at Home Depot, it's about $45 for a 36" x 150ft roll and much higher quality than the Chinese chicken wire that's available everywhere.  It's made in the USA. by Davis Wire.  I find that the holes are usually exactly 1" whereas chicken wire holes vary up to 1.5" which might let a skinny gopher through.  So it's much cheaper and will last longer than the Chinese chicken wire.  You can see the quality difference just by looking at it in the store.

I like the idea of gopher snakes.  Will they stick around after they eat the resident gopher?

John

I was just reading that prairie dogs are also called gophers and they do surface and look around all the time.  So I suppose you could hang out on the prairie and shoot prairie dogs while they are surveying the landscape.  But pocket gophers are what I have at my house and they don't often show their faces.  Since owls hunt them, they must sometimes come out at night

I just found this information on avocado tree roots.  Does it seem right?  If the roots are primarily "thin, fibrous feeder roots", exactly how thin (or thick) are they?  1/4", 1/2",

"The root system is relatively shallow, and does not extend far beyond the tree canopy, if it even reaches the edge of the canopy. The roots are primarily thin, fibrous feeder roots. They have no thick, anchoring taproot. These are likely adaptations to the shallow layer of rich soils in their native rain forest climates, as well as the absence of high winds in the dense forest growth that would necessitate better anchorage."
http://www.gardenguides.com/131987-avocado-tree-roots.html

Thanks for the planting ideas.  I'm worried that the silty sand/sandy silt I'm planting in won't hold enough moisture to keep the avocado roots at the slightly moist level I've read they like.  If the feeder roots populate the mulch, they should get enough moisture if I keep it wet.  But what about any other roots that are spreading into the non-mulch area.  I lost a lot of young apple trees before I figured out how much they had to be watered in the summers here.

Patrick, unless gophers don't like avocado tree roots, I have to protect the trees.  I live on top of a gopher hill and the trees are going to be planted in an area that's combed with tunnels.  A few years ago I had a nice 5 year old apricot tree die on me and when I dug it out there were no roots...I found gopher tunnels leading through the rusted chicken wire basket it was planted in and the roots had been eaten down to nubs, leaving only the trunk of the tree.  What I've done with two other fruit trees where I used 24"-36" diameter hardware cloth baskets was to clip out parts of the 1/2" hardware cloth holes making them 1" holes.  It's very laborious and time consuming but I don't know any other way to protect the trees.  Do you know how large avocado roots will get out about 18" from the trunk?  And do you think the roots would find their way through holes that are large enough?

I have gopher traps, and I put juicy fruit gum into the tunnels and that keeps the population down, and I might even put broken glass in the main tunnels...but just like with squirrels, they rise early and are active all day long.  And there are a lot of tunnels that I'll never be able to get to.   It's impossible to be that vigilant, there's always going to be a new gopher in town that gets to the tree before I get to it. 

I was just  looking for citrus.forumup.org and the Joe Real tutorials and came across this thread.  I'd never heard of the Wayback Machine...what a treasure.  Thanks for the links and the Wayback Machine.

John

If it's sunburn, will the color just stay like that without harming the tree...or can it cause changes in the tree that lead to deterioration?

I wouldn't say that I have black spots on the trunk...just that portions of it turned brown/black.  I sure wish I knew how to add photos here, the photos would describe the problem perfectly.