The Tropical Fruit Forum
Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: CTMIAMI on November 04, 2012, 08:42:38 PM
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I was wondering if any one has tried this product it claims to prevent roots from circling in the pot and at the same time provides minor element nutrition. Is this Nirvana for pots??
(http://s11.postimage.org/tnij431fj/mk7.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/tnij431fj/)
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I find it hard to believe , unless it was backed up by solid documented comparisons with and without use.
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Hello,
It looks like you have some questions regarding the functions of Microkote. Copper based root pruning agents has been used since the 60's in nursery and greenhouse applications. MicroKote contains calcium, copper, iron, magnesium, manganese and zinc bound in a latex coating to provide delayed release of the nutrients when the roots reach the sides of the container (available in liquid / treated container / treated fabric bags). The product works great, you will see no roots circling around the container, because once the root tip makes contact with the inside surface of the container the energy is forced back to the tap root creating a heavily branched (lateral growth) root configuration. If you are interested I could get you a sample to experiment with. Feel free to look at the website for additional information. www.MicroKote.com (http://www.MicroKote.com)
These photos are the roots after removing the majority of the soil in the root ball.
(http://s18.postimage.org/apd1stqjp/roots1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/apd1stqjp/)
(http://s17.postimage.org/jcq96rz7f/Roots_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/jcq96rz7f/)
Root ball just pulled from containers
(http://s8.postimage.org/nei9yni75/Spin_Out_Spider_Plants2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/nei9yni75/)
-Kyle
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Kyle, actually I'm experimenting with your product. It would tale to next summer to see how well it works in my environment. I'm also documenting it on video.
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Sounds great! I think I recall your order. I took a look at your website, very interesting and full of information. As for MicroKote, are you planting young trees in coated containers? If so, you should Definitely see a difference when you transplant in the field as all of the roots will establish quickly once they are not restricted by the coating. I am helping my buddy Jay from Hort Specialties make this product more known and widely available. Will your video documentation be available on your youtube channel? I am certainly interested in seeing the results of your testing.
Thanks and good luck!
Kyle
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Kyle yes. I'm on my second bottle, it goes a long way. I use it on avocado seedlings in 3 gal pots that will be grafted soon. Some times I up pot to 5 gal. I'm testing the product with those and I also have two Mamey Sapote seeds one in a coated one gal and the other in an un-coated identical pot.
Also I have some avocados in 1 gal coated pot just to see how it works.
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Microkote used to be made under the brand-name SpinOut by Griffin L.L.C. until SePRO bought the rights. After the re-branding they added other metals labeled as "nutrients". In my opinion this is all marketing; the roots will be stopped and not absorb anything near the Microkote layer - so really the only active ingredient is the chemical that stops the roots from growing further (this chemical is copper hydroxide which was the original ingredient in SpinOut).
Microkote is pricey ($28 for 8oz). But you should be able to make your own.
1) Buy some dry Copper(II) Hydroxide, this is used usually as a fungus pestizide. Interestingly, SePro stuff can be bought on ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/CuPRO-5000DF-Fungicide-Bactericide-61-3-Copper-Hydroxide-SePRO-3lb-foil-bag-/370622313276 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/CuPRO-5000DF-Fungicide-Bactericide-61-3-Copper-Hydroxide-SePRO-3lb-foil-bag-/370622313276)), this is probably the same stuff they put into Microkote. Other sources are
KOCIDE 3000 (made by DuPont) or http://kingquenson.en.alibaba.com/productshowimg/424951536-200579235/Copper_hydroxide.html. (http://kingquenson.en.alibaba.com/productshowimg/424951536-200579235/Copper_hydroxide.html.)
2) Dilute the Copper(II) Hydroxide in latex paint. The original SpinOut was made with 13 oz/Gal of Copper(II) Hydroxide (source: http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/28/5/527.6.abstract (http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/28/5/527.6.abstract)). Remember to account for the original concentration of dry Copper(II) Hydroxide in the pesticide bag (this is typically 50%, for which you would add 26 oz per Gal of latex paint).
Remember to read all the instructions in the bag when handling pesticides.
This costs about 10x less than buying the Microkote solution which is over-priced and over-marketed (b/c of those extra additive "nutrients") in my opinion.
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Microkote used to be made under the brand-name SpinOut by Griffin L.L.C. until SePRO bought the rights. After the re-branding they added other metals labeled as "nutrients". In my opinion this is all marketing; the roots will be stopped and not absorb anything near the Microkote layer - so really the only active ingredient is the chemical that stops the roots from growing further (this chemical is copper hydroxide which was the original ingredient in SpinOut).
Microkote is pricey ($28 for 8oz). But you should be able to make your own.
1) Buy some dry Copper(II) Hydroxide, this is used usually as a fungus pestizide. Interestingly, SePro stuff can be bought on ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/CuPRO-5000DF-Fungicide-Bactericide-61-3-Copper-Hydroxide-SePRO-3lb-foil-bag-/370622313276 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/CuPRO-5000DF-Fungicide-Bactericide-61-3-Copper-Hydroxide-SePRO-3lb-foil-bag-/370622313276)), this is probably the same stuff they put into Microkote. Other sources are
KOCIDE 3000 (made by DuPont) or http://kingquenson.en.alibaba.com/productshowimg/424951536-200579235/Copper_hydroxide.html. (http://kingquenson.en.alibaba.com/productshowimg/424951536-200579235/Copper_hydroxide.html.)
2) Dilute the Copper(II) Hydroxide in latex paint. The original SpinOut was made with 13 oz/Gal of Copper(II) Hydroxide (source: http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/28/5/527.6.abstract (http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/28/5/527.6.abstract)). Remember to account for the original concentration of dry Copper(II) Hydroxide in the pesticide bag (this is typically 50%, for which you would add 26 oz per Gal of latex paint).
Remember to read all the instructions in the bag when handling pesticides.
This costs about 10x less than buying the Microkote solution which is over-priced and over-marketed (b/c of those extra additive "nutrients") in my opinion.
EXCELLENT info! Thanks!!!
And FWIW, I've been using Griffin's for many years and wouldn't be without it. Now this gives me a choice for saving money by making the concoction myself.
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I am curious how copper bottom paint for boats would work? There are various amounts of copper available, the paint can be soft or a hard epoxy. Both keep marine plant growth off the bottom of boats kept in the water and are readily obtained.
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I am curious how copper bottom paint for boats would work? There are various amounts of copper available, the paint can be soft or a hard epoxy. Both keep marine plant growth off the bottom of boats kept in the water and are readily obtained.
There's only one way to find out Jack.......
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I've been so impressed with the growth of my new crop of papayas this year using Micro-Kote that I've started to use it for all of my plants that have to live in containers. I've never seen such sturdy and rapid growth for greenhouse papayas in my less-than-favorable climate (that's putting it mildly). Now if I can only nurse them through the coming Winter.......
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Carlos, I had no problems with the roots circling the pot, when I planted the 'Jan Boyce' avocado that you gave me, so I suppose that it works.
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Leo was that Jan Boyce pot coated?
I continue to use the product. Now comes in quart size, more economical. I use it now all the time. I put in the field 3 trees I uppoted from 3 gallons into 5. The root ball was incredible not one single root circling. ZERO transplant shock.
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Leo was that Jan Boyce pot coated?
I continue to use the product. Now comes in quart size, more economical. I use it now all the time. I put in the field 3 trees I uppoted from 3 gallons into 5. The root ball was incredible not one single root circling. ZERO transplant shock.
Carlos, humor me, please try that Griffin's I sent you. 3 light coats and you're good to go.
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I have that set aside for a special project on 15 gal pots.
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I have that set aside for a special project on 15 gal pots.
Bueno, should do about 3 or more.
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Jack,
I'd be a little worried about some of the other compounds in the bottom paint. That stuff is pretty tough and I think some of the chemicals are toxic to humans if not plants. Most of them, as far as I know, are catalyzed or oil based. I think it’s best to use water-based latex paint and mix in the copper.
Sven
I am curious how copper bottom paint for boats would work? There are various amounts of copper available, the paint can be soft or a hard epoxy. Both keep marine plant growth off the bottom of boats kept in the water and are readily obtained.
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Leo was that Jan Boyce pot coated?
I continue to use the product. Now comes in quart size, more economical. I use it now all the time. I put in the field 3 trees I uppoted from 3 gallons into 5. The root ball was incredible not one single root circling. ZERO transplant shock.
That's what you told me before you gave me the 'Jan Boyce' potted avocado backup tree, and I believe it, I did not notice any roots circling the pot at the moment I planted it. The tree so far is doing great. The leaves have a healthy, somewhat beautiful, reddish coloration that I've never seen before.
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I was wondering if any one has tried this product it claims to prevent roots from circling in the pot and at the same time provides minor element nutrition. Is this Nirvana for pots??
(http://s11.postimage.org/tnij431fj/mk7.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/tnij431fj/)
Carlos how are your experiences with the Microkote now?
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I keep using it and I find it very useful. It does what it says. Great tool to make great roots.
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I keep using it and I find it very useful. It does what it says. Great tool to make great roots.
Have you tried the Griffin's I sent you?
I've pretty much given up on regular pots unless it's trivial stuff like starting herbs or tomato transplants.
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I will try the homemade microkote with copper in some big pots. Mark does microkote have the same effect as rootbuilder pots? Or is rootbuilder better?
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Jack,
I'd be a little worried about some of the other compounds in the bottom paint. That stuff is pretty tough and I think some of the chemicals are toxic to humans if not plants. Most of them, as far as I know, are catalyzed or oil based. I think it’s best to use water-based latex paint and mix in the copper.
Sven
I am curious how copper bottom paint for boats would work? There are various amounts of copper available, the paint can be soft or a hard epoxy. Both keep marine plant growth off the bottom of boats kept in the water and are readily obtained.
Agreed, my concern would also be leeching. Doesn't mean that it does any more so than Microkote. No information available, I'd hold off. Not a bad idea tho.
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Agreed, my concern would also be leeching. Doesn't mean that it does any more so than Microkote. No information available, I'd hold off. Not a bad idea tho.
Info is available but you must go to the right sources, folks that have experience with the product, not folks who are give opinions with no facts. It doesn't leech and the copper salts/ions do not translocate into the plant.
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I will try the homemade microkote with copper in some big pots. Mark does microkote have the same effect as rootbuilder pots? Or is rootbuilder better?
MicroKote aka Griffin's Spin-Out is a sure bet. Not sure on the Rootbuilder until I add another panel. I jumped the gun on others I've done and there were few roots at the pot walls. No spin out noted though.
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Anyone have updates on their use of Griffins Spin Out, microcote, or your own home made mixture? I'm tired of all the wasted water on my super roots pots. Thanks,
Simon
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Works as designed.
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Thanks Mark, I'm going to get a quart and try growing a couple mango in large pots.
Simon
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I love my microkote. I use it on all my new pots, and I'm slowly repotting everything. No, the company has not given me a thing to say that. When you grow everything in pots, you need to know what the best options are out there. I don't use fabric pots, because I overwinter, and my house gets too dry, the fabric pots wick away the moisture, creating a dirt ball. I will never go back to them unless I live in the tropics, that means I use microkote on my plastic pots. I've got a greenhouse full of lush green plants to prove it. Go for it, Simon. :)
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Another negative on fabric pots is every time you move them you disturb the root system which could injure tender root hairs. I'm using RootBuilder. Check out this citrus rootball when I expanded the pot.
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=7511.50 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=7511.50)
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I have pots treated with the MicroKote that I have used 2-3 times and the coating still works and does its job. It allows to grow bigger trees in the pot without root issues.
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I must've watched that video on youtube a bunch of times before ordering microkote, thinking the guy must be on the forum, but I never knew it was your ctmiami. Lol
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Thanks for this discussion thread. It's one of a few that talks about the topic.
What about root aeration? Do you use a special mix that compacts less?
I use root maker pots out of this concern. But I get what null zero says about wasting water, especially on miracle fruit with RO water.
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I must've watched that video on youtube a bunch of times before ordering microkote, thinking the guy must be on the forum, but I never knew it was your ctmiami. Lol
When ever I experience a good product I like to let everyone know. Some times is hard for a new product to get into the market. If they don,t survive economically, we don't get to buy and use a great product. By the way I do not know the makers and paid for my product like you did. Now I find that one good coating can last 3 seasons, making the pot reusable and coated.
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When ever I experience a good product I like to let everyone know. Some times is hard for a new product to get into the market. If they don,t survive economically, we don't get to buy and use a great product. By the way I do not know the makers and paid for my product like you did. Now I find that one good coating can last 3 seasons, making the pot reusable and coated.
Did you ever try my Griffin's? It's my favorite.
I prep the inside of a plastic pot with dish soap and a scuff pad, rinse, dry well and apply 3 light coats of Griffin's concentrating on the bottom to insure no root spin-out..
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I agree that super roots pots waste a lot of water, simply because there are so many holes. My question to you microkote users: since the root system is very healthy and the tree shows good growth, when/how do you decide to upsize to a bigger container?
Thanks,
Trung
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I do not grow on pots long term. I use the pots to grow seedlings or graft to store bud wood. But they eventually go to the ground. I do have one avocado seedling that is 9 ft tall in a 5 gal pot and is doing well.
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I agree that super roots pots waste a lot of water, simply because there are so many holes. My question to you microkote users: since the root system is very healthy and the tree shows good growth, when/how do you decide to upsize to a bigger container?
Thanks,
Trung
I upcan when I think the tree would benefit from a larger root mass. Just because you use a root tip pruning system doesn't mean you can forget about upcanning. The benefit of me using bottomless RootBuilder pots is that the trees quickly root into native ground, witness the link I gave in a previous post reflecting large scaffold roots rooting into the ground.
I'm going to be making a mix soon for 2 mango trees but this time instead of the usual 50/50 organics/inorganics I'm going to tighten it up a bit with about 1/3 clay loam which comes from my farm.
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It's on sale now, $14.95 for the 8 oz bottle.
$29.95 for the quart.
Bunch of treated containers discounted too. Of interest are the 10-gallon containers: 5-pack for $27.95
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Thanks fir the heads up, I'll order some shortly.
Simon
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It seems that's not a sale. It's been that for more than a year. I ordered last summer and again this past May or June. I wouldn't buy more than I need.
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I just hate how the cost of the bottle is $14 and shipping to my area is about the same. :-\ Might have to bite the bullet and just do it, there's no other place to buy from besides directly from microkote and the horti place. Wish it was available from Amazon. :)
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I just hate how the cost of the bottle is $14 and shipping to my area is about the same. :-\ Might have to bite the bullet and just do it, there's no other place to buy from besides directly from microkote and the horti place. Wish it was available from Amazon. :)
Make your own. Recipe is on page 1.
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Get a friend and split an order of the quart size. It's worth it. I don't need anymore fabric pots or ordering fancy earth gro this or air prune that, I just bought a cheap brush from Wal mart and painted, and I can destress about my plants being rootbound. That's a relief when you grow everything in pots.
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I just hate how the cost of the bottle is $14 and shipping to my area is about the same. :-\ Might have to bite the bullet and just do it, there's no other place to buy from besides directly from microkote and the horti place. Wish it was available from Amazon. :)
Make your own. Recipe is on page 1.
Have you made your own and seen results? Curious if the recipe works.
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Copper hydroxide works. I still have some Griffin's Spin-out and if properly applied it is 100% effective, more reliable than air pruning systems.
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Copper hydroxide works. I still have some Griffin's Spin-out and if properly applied it is 100% effective, more reliable than air pruning systems.
I'm about to try this out (copper hydroxide mixed with latex paint), and am curious: when you say "properly applied", what sorts of mistakes should I be looking to avoid? My plan was to somewhat crudely paint the inside of old #5 pots.
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I explained the details in a post right above you, this page.
Hope that helps.
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I explained the details in a post right above you, this page.
Hope that helps.
Sounds good :) Just thought there might be some other tricks other than what you mentioned.
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Not really, just make sure the pots are squeaky clean and rinsed well. I've even gone so far as to take 00 steel wool dunked in soapy water and scrubbed away. Also scores the plastic for better adhesion.
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It is funny Mark as you were posting the above I was in my grove giving this product another check.
I have had a Waldin seedling in a 5 gal Microkote coated pot for two years, need I add previously used pot, so the coating is in its 3 year. You can see the size of the seedling it is 7 ft tall and 1.5 inch at trunk base. It was running out of gas in such a small pot so I decided to take it and plant it in the grove and graft it in January..
(http://s30.postimg.cc/sou5scpkt/DSC00588.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/sou5scpkt/)
Now look at the root ball. No circling roots, a fibrous mass of roots, healthy, cream color, no dead roots. I'm afraid this product is so good and last so long, that they may go out of business. 8 oz can last a life time. I'm ready to use it a third time soon.
(http://s16.postimg.cc/i7pk8gwcx/DSC00590.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/i7pk8gwcx/)
(http://s28.postimg.cc/dbnb8nkjd/DSC00593.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/dbnb8nkjd/)
You see the bottom with a lot of nice roots, because I place a two inch layer of river rock, giving some room for the roots to grow without touching the product. They did not seem to have circled a lot. This tree should take off like a rocket.
I'm adding a photo of how the pot looks after 3 years, two uses
(http://s22.postimg.cc/rxxm6qfgd/DSC00597.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/rxxm6qfgd/)
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Nice result, Carlos!
What soil mix are you using for your container plants?
Thanks,
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I have no loyalty to any particular blend, what ever I get my hands on at the time I need it.
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Looks good Carlos except you have a gnarly mass of roots at the bottom that may need trimming or at least untangling. If not you may get a girdling effect, which killed this Pickering recently. (That tree came directly out of an untreated PIN pot).
(http://s1.postimg.cc/6qyjkifcb/Pickering_Root_Dieback.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/6qyjkifcb/)
Like you have planted thousands of trees and grapevines by hand (about 10,000 Christmas trees and their replacements) both in pots but mainly in the field and I always try to insure that the roots grow out into native soil like spokes on a bicycle wheel. Think of the axle as the trunk and the roots as spokes radiating outwards. If they J root or girdle, the tree is toast.
Spin out mainly occurs at the bottom of the pot which you've witnessed. Those roots should be touching the product, should be chemically pruned so that you get more of a diffused mass of roots. That is where I concentrate my application of the paint, at the bottom of the pot, and it works. I don't mind the roots hitting the sides because they'll be diverted down to the bottom but once they reach the bottom I don't want any spin out (circling).
To get technical, when a root tip is terminated (killed), either by chemical means or air/light, you'll get a profusion of lateral roots approximately 4" from that point and behind on most plant material. That means that this system is only temporary and upcanning or planting into the field is necessary at some point in time.
I'm like you regarding potting mixes, whatever is on hand but I do stick with a 50/50 mix of inorganics and organics.
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I would guess that the rocks in the bottom of the pot cause the heavy root mass before it hit the copper. It doesn't appear to have happened on the sides.
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Here is a good example of the effect of copper hydroxide paint - to induce a very fibrous and effective root system. I knocked off as much soil as possible to show this thick, fine mass of roots. ;)
(http://s13.postimg.cc/52uv8xs77/Fibrous_Rootball.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/52uv8xs77/)
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I would guess that the rocks in the bottom of the pot cause the heavy root mass before it hit the copper. It doesn't appear to have happened on the sides.
Doesn't look like they ever hit the copper or he wouldn't have that gnarly mass of twisted roots. IOW, I doubt if Carlos treated the bottom of the pot, which he should have for the best results. It's the bottom where you don't want spin-out as explained.
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The bottom was painted as pic shows. I do not have an issue with the bottom roots they are fine. Limitted circling all alive and healthy. Normaly in a two year old planting you would see a lot or circling necrotic roots. For me this is perfect. I created the situation by adding the 2 inches of river pebbles also gives some needed wight to the pot. In a few months I will Take a picture of the tree.
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The bottom was painted as pic shows. I do not have an issue with the bottom roots they are fine.
I missed that Carlos. Just confuses me why they weren't terminated. I'm just wondering what product is more effective, MicroKote or Griffin's.
It's the active ingredient of copper hydroxide that does the work. Why MicroKote is throwing in other elements is not clear to me.
I assume you never tried the Griffin's Spinout?
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I have so many pot that I keep reusing with the MicroKote. I need to make about 10 seedlings next week will use the Spin out
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Apologies for the necro bump, but does anyone have any recommendations on where to purchase copper hydroxide to make the homemade version of Microkote? Unfortunately the links from are long dead and I'm having some difficulty sourcing it.
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Apologies for the necro bump, but does anyone have any recommendations on where to purchase copper hydroxide to make the homemade version of Microkote? Unfortunately the links from are long dead and I'm having some difficulty sourcing it.
We got it on ebay if I remember right.
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Found this vendor that's selling it cheaper than eBay. Free shipping too. $37.
https://www.lawnandpestcontrolsupply.com/products/cupro-5000-fungicide (https://www.lawnandpestcontrolsupply.com/products/cupro-5000-fungicide)
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Found this vendor that's selling it cheaper than eBay. Free shipping too. $37.
https://www.lawnandpestcontrolsupply.com/products/cupro-5000-fungicide (https://www.lawnandpestcontrolsupply.com/products/cupro-5000-fungicide)
Griffin's is still making Spin-Out. I talked to a SePro rep recently and texted me an outrageous price, something like $255 for two 2.5 gal. jugs, a case.