Does Cold Hardy Mango exist?

[simon_grow]

I just did a Google search and found out its one of the Mango Professors creations. It will be very interesting to see what the lowest temperature this Antonio Mango will survive.

Simon

[Pancrazio]

What do you think?

Personally i have been surprised so many times by something completly unexpected, that i have learn to avoid telling something is completly impossible. Also, i don't think that mangoes have ever been breed for frost resistance (correct me if i'm wrong). So i put everything in the realm of the possibilities. My concerns are just two fold;
1) Did the mango in the USA have a genetical base wide enough to have some frost tolerance genes in them? I'm assuming they have been breed using mainly DNA from the USA.
2) What does means 20F? Whas the temperature measured for the city, ot the temperature registered at the canopy? Was the temperature at ground level? How long it lasted? For example, I have a small seedling of Gomera-3. If i put it in the freezer at 0F for 15 seconds it won't get any damage. Can we say that it did survive 0F? The most important thing when we speak about killing temperatures for any plant isn't the temperature by itself but also how it was experienced by the plant.
Just my two cents. That said, i respect the work of anyone involved in breeding even more because it's something i probably wouldn't be able to do.

[Delvi83]

Yes, i open this thread 'cos I don't trust the information only on "the papar"......

I think there must be verificaion on the field, not totally frost-free zone comparing "normal Mango" with this alleged "cold-resistant Mago" !!!

[Mangorilla the Uslurper]

What do you think?

Personally i have been surprised so many times by something completly unexpected, that i have learn to avoid telling something is completly impossible. Also, i don't think that mangoes have ever been breed for frost resistance (correct me if i'm wrong). So i put everything in the realm of the possibilities. My concerns are just two fold;
1) Did the mango in the USA have a genetical base wide enough to have some frost tolerance genes in them? I'm assuming they have been breed using mainly DNA from the USA.
2) What does means 20F? Whas the temperature measured for the city, ot the temperature registered at the canopy? Was the temperature at ground level? How long it lasted? For example, I have a small seedling of Gomera-3. If i put it in the freezer at 0F for 15 seconds it won't get any damage. Can we say that it did survive 0F? The most important thing when we speak about killing temperatures for any plant isn't the temperature by itself but also how it was experienced by the plant.
Just my two cents. That said, i respect the work of anyone involved in breeding even more because it's something i probably wouldn't be able to do.
[/quote
Excellent on all points !!!

[ricshaw]

1) Did the mango in the USA have a genetical base wide enough to have some frost tolerance genes in them? I'm assuming they have been breed using mainly DNA from the USA.

The Mango Professor says the frost tolerant genetic DNA he is looking for was present BEFORE the trees came to the USA.

[JF]

1) Did the mango in the USA have a genetical base wide enough to have some frost tolerance genes in them? I'm assuming they have been breed using mainly DNA from the USA.

The Mango Professor says the frost tolerant genetic DNA he is looking for was present BEFORE the trees came to the USA.

That's true but for him to claim that he capture or isolated that cold gene in his small sample is ludicrous

[ricshaw]

If a person planted 100 Mango seeds, is it possible that some of the seedling trees would be more cold tolerant and/or disease resistant than others?

[Pancrazio]

The Mango Professor says the frost tolerant genetic DNA he is looking for was present BEFORE the trees came to the USA.

I can't comment on this. I'm not really an expert on this. Maybe some of the more expert guys can help us on this point. But i see that commenting on this may be hard.

If a person planted 100 Mango seeds, is it possible that some of the seedling trees would be more cold tolerant and/or disease resistant than others?

Yes, that is indeed possible. But in this case, having a wide genetic base from the source of your seeds may help to underline any difference between the plants. As far as i know, one of the staple of mango growing, so far, has been "mangoes doen't show any significat difference between cultivar regarding cold tolerance". So i'm going to assume that the difference, if exists, is narrow; to the point that noone noticed anything till now (there are some anecdotes, but they are anecdotes). Of course a chance seedling can always emerge; but its cold hardiness must have had a source, and the source must have been in the genes of its parents.
Since  we don't see any difference in general between mangos, that means that such genes must be possessed by every mango, or by no mango. In any case, is hard to se how such gene can make for a plant hardier than its parents. BUT, of course things can be different if we assume that those mangoes have a source of genetic material that isn't the common commercial mangoes (or their relatives). Who knows? Looks something possible but also absurdly hard to obtain! I'm really curious to see how this story will unfold.

[ricshaw]

If a person planted 100 Mango seeds, is it possible that some of the seedling trees would be more cold tolerant and/or disease resistant than others?

Yes, that is indeed possible. But in this case, having a wide genetic base from the source of your seeds may help to underline any difference between the plants. As far as i know, one of the staple of mango growing, so far, has been "mangoes doen't show any significat difference between cultivar regarding cold tolerance". So i'm going to assume that the difference, if exists, is narrow; to the point that noone noticed anything till now (there are some anecdotes, but they are anecdotes). Of course a chance seedling can always emerge; but its cold hardiness must have had a source, and the source must have been in the genes of its parents.
Since  we don't see any difference in general between mangos, that means that such genes must be possessed by every mango, or by no mango. In any case, is hard to se how such gene can make for a plant hardier than its parents. BUT, of course things can be different if we assume that those mangoes have a source of genetic material that isn't the common commercial mangoes (or their relatives). Who knows? Looks something possible but also absurdly hard to obtain! I'm really curious to see how this story will unfold.

So you are basically saying you would NOT expect to see any difference in cold tolerance between seedlings grown from 100 seeds?

I am not an expert and have a very limited experience growing seedlings from avocado and mango seeds.
From my limited experience growing these seeds, I would not be surprised to see a difference in tree performance 5 years from now. But I have no selection plans.

I might add if there is "basically no difference in general between mangos" why do we bother with grafting mango scion wood onto seedlings? If we select for taste, why not for hardiness (to a small degree)?

[Pancrazio]

Yes i would say that i don't expect any major difference. But on a certain degree, i think you are right; some difference are observed. BUT! I do attribute those difference to secondary factors (nutrition, vigour of the plant, physiological state) more than intrinsecal cold hardiness. I think that everything else held equal, the difference between the plants are at most a couple of °F, if any.
Keep in mind that i haven't a direct experience from this but this seems the most logical assumption reading the forum around in the last years (at least to me). My experience partly confirms this, because i haven't seen, till now, any episode where one of may mango fails miserably because of cold, while others clearly outperform it. But i admit that the range of clones i'm growing is very strict! From a discussion standpoint I'm kinda in a win-win situation because, as you can imagine, i would be the happiest grower if i were proved wrong. I need a cold hardy mango so bad! This is the reason why i keep a close eye on this.
The phrase "we don't see any difference in general between mangos" is of course referred to cold hardiness, i wouldn't ever attempt to say mangoes are all the same on this forum, I don't want to be stoned. 

[Delvi83]

- I don't think there is only one gene (or mutated allele) that confers cold-resistance, rather I think many genes could be involved in a fine regulation system.

- 100 seeds are to few to obtain a "cold-hard" mutant....i mean it's just a matter of statistics.

- If someone would like to find new cold-hardy cultivars, he must find a good selection method.....if one sows a 1.000.000 of Mango's seeds in south florida how can he find the only one cold-resistant? You need a screening that works efficiently (in this case a zone where sometimes temperature falls under 32F), but the same zone has to give the possibility to let Mangos grow until well established...

- Another think is to screen the already present cultivars...I mean, the selection happens without us....it might be that, in some part of the world (North India? or somewhere else, all the Mangos planted die, all apart 1-2 cultivars that were adapted for that not optimal enviroment.....the problem, if there are, is to find them

[ricshaw]

- I don't think there is only one gene (or mutated allele) that confers cold-resistance, rather I think many genes could be involved in a fine regulation system.

- 100 seeds are to few to obtain a "cold-hard" mutant....i mean it's just a matter of statistics.

- If someone would like to find new cold-hardy cultivars, he must find a good selection method.....if one sows a 1.000.000 of Mango's seeds in south florida how can he find the only one cold-resistant? You need a screening that works efficiently (in this case a zone where sometimes temperature falls under 32F), but the same zone has to give the possibility to let Mangos grow until well established...

- Another think is to screen the already present cultivars...I mean, the selection happens without us....it might be that, in some part of the world (North India? or somewhere else, all the Mangos planted die, all apart 1-2 cultivars that were adapted for that not optimal enviroment.....the problem, if there are, is to find them

I agree.

Is it possible to select for a cold hardy Mango?  I think yes.

Is there any testing or proof to back up what the Mango Professor saw in his seedling experiment? No, it will take time to see if he was successful.

[JF]

If a person planted 100 Mango seeds, is it possible that some of the seedling trees would be more cold tolerant and/or disease resistant than others?

Very unlikely....where are the lab results? Natural selection takes a long time you are not  going to get results in 20 years with a small batch of seedlings

[Mangorilla the Uslurper]

If a person planted 100 Mango seeds, is it possible that some of the seedling trees would be more cold tolerant and/or disease resistant than others?

Very unlikely....where are the lab results? Natural selection takes a long time you are not  going to get results in 20 years with a small batch of seedlings

How do you kno that nature hasn't been selecting for 100s of years already? It maybe a long shot but it's not an impossible dream.

[ricshaw]

How do you kno that nature hasn't been selecting for 100s of years already? It maybe a long shot but it's not an impossible dream.

I don't know about a hundred years...  but I kind of get the impression that, around Southern California, nature has been allowing some seedlings to succeed and grow to maturity while others die when exposed to the first big frost. 

[WGphil]

Problem is, all cold is not the same.  Frost and blasting cold air is not the same animal.   The stage the plant is in when cold hits is another factor.  New plantings I wrap, big trees are on their own. 

Air movement can help you or hurt you.   I grow what tastes the best and do the common sense things to protect them from cold.  But, replanting skills will still be needed sooner or later where I am located.   

[Tropheus76]

Wgphil- since you are relatively close to me, what do you do to keep your mangos warm? I have a graham in a pot right now and I am considering putting it into the ground as it is almost too big to move at this point.  I was thinking come winter to mound mulch up the trunk and get natural warmth that way. Throw on a blanket and my guess is that would be enough with the mild winters we have been having.

[ricshaw]

around Southern California, nature has been allowing some seedlings to succeed and grow to maturity while others die when exposed to the first big frost.

The ones I am thinking about I am pretty sure people are not wrapping them in blankets and Christmas lights.

[Mangorilla the Uslurper]

Wgphil- since you are relatively close to me, what do you do to keep your mangos warm? I have a graham in a pot right now and I am considering putting it into the ground as it is almost too big to move at this point.  I was thinking come winter to mound mulch up the trunk and get natural warmth that way. Throw on a blanket and my guess is that would be enough with the mild winters we have been having.

I have some unwanted trees growing on my property. I've been planting my mangos on the south side of these. Eventually I'll cut them down once my mangos have grown enough. I had some success last winter planting them like this. If you have any plant that you want to remove someday you can try this.

[WGphil]

The coldest air comes from our northwest so plant on the southeast side if possible.  My home faces northwest so I have a southeast micro climate in the back yard that is protected somewhat from the worst winds.   Start with what you have and maximize it.  I would only bank the trees if you know the big one is coming.

The big trees are pretty much on their own.   Old timers in the Citrus industry would tell us to put wood ashes on our trees to help them sweeten and to help them with cold. 


I put four posts  around the small trees and use cloth not plastic to put over the frame.  Plastic without a heat source will kill your trees dead in no time.  Electric went out here one winter as they rotated area blackouts due to not enough electric to go around.
 
Only they didn't tell the grove owners who had their electric wells shut off and then turned back on after all the irrigation lines had frozen solid. 

So cloth especially if frost is the problem.   No heat source needed just to keep the frost off. 


If it is the frozen wind type of storm, you better have something on the north and west side to deflect it.   About all you can do.  But cover for sure and double tie it as most likely any cover will be blown away in this type if you don't make dang sure it won't fly away. 

Elevation helps also.   Cold air runs like water.   Hot air lifts balloons while cold air will follow the low ground as it is heavy.  You can use elevation  changes to pull the coldest air away from your plants.   

Your roots should be fine so try to save the twigs with covering.  If you see it is a really bad storm, banking to save the graft and roots makes sense.  But don't leave it on all winter, the base of the mango does not like to be planted too low and this can replicate that if left on. 

We did this for citrus but I don't do it for mango. 

[Delvi83]

Maybe some part of California or North Florida could be good places to screen new cultivars....anyone of you has tested some of the new "alleged" cold-hardy in these area?

[Tropheus76]

I am sure there are some Ocala/Gainsville/Jacksonville people on here who could answer that. Much farther north than Central FL and you start seeing more stone fruit(#2 for peaches) and stuff that doesn't grow here. I know there are olive groves in Gainsville plus some citrus, but you are getting out of most citrus country by that point, which always made me wonder why they have the citrus lab and stuff up there at FSU and not farther south where the main groves are.

[WGphil]

If I lived in Jax I would have a pickering in as big a pot as you can move with a fridge cart and move it inside during anything low enough to kill it. 

[Delvi83]

I mean those area i said could be good place to screen Mango's cold hardiness....in South Florida all Mangos live without any problem..somewhere I read that one wanted to verifey the cold hardiness of its new Mango's cultivars and it gifted brach of its cultivars to someone who lived over the borded of normal cultivation area...for instance some parts of Spain !!

[shinzo]

I put four posts  around the small trees and use cloth not plastic to put over the frame.  Plastic without a heat source will kill your trees dead in no time.  Electric went out here one winter as they rotated area blackouts due to not enough electric to go around.
 

You said that plastic cover without heat will kill the plant immediately, can you explain more please? do you mean that plastic cover only does not keep the plant warm and it will be dead immediately? or is it a question of air ciruclation etc?