Stupid newbie question on growing mangos from seed

[bbates123]

So last year a neighbor of mine gave me a mango seed that was starting to sprout.  I know now that this is a monoembryonic version since it only had one sprout.  Well yesterday we were at a local nursery and talking to the guy that runs the place about his grafted mangos and I brought up the mango that I was growing from a seed, now about 12in tall.  He said good luck...chances are the tree will grow huge, will take 20 years to bear fruit, and the fruit will be very fibrous.  From the limited research I've done since yesterday what I've learned is that it will be more like 5-7 years before the tree bears fruit and it's a roll the dice as to what variety I will get or if it will be fibrous or tasty.  What I don't understand is why is a monoembryonic seedling not true to the parent?  If the seed came from a tree that was grafted why wouldn't the fruit either be from the root stock source or the grafted on source?  And if the tree that the seed came from wasn't grafted I only see one possible source.  How can it be that a mono seedling can potentially be so many different varieties?

[TropicalFruitHunters]

Mono means "one"...and what springs from that seed is not a clone of the parent.  Poly-embryonic has "many" embryos that can produce more than one shoot from the seed and these ARE clones from the parent.  The type of seed is the result of the fruit from the grafted tree...nothing to do with the rootstock.  If you are sure that the fruit came from a grafted variety that produces mono type seeds, then yes, the future tree/fruit is a shot in the dark.  With all of the wonderful Florida mango varieties available, unless just curious about the long term result, why bother?  Why not just pick up a grafted plant of a known good variety?  Might use it as a rootstock for grafting practice.

[Squam256]

So last year a neighbor of mine gave me a mango seed that was starting to sprout.  I know now that this is a monoembryonic version since it only had one sprout.  Well yesterday we were at a local nursery and talking to the guy that runs the place about his grafted mangos and I brought up the mango that I was growing from a seed, now about 12in tall.  He said good luck...chances are the tree will grow huge, will take 20 years to bear fruit, and the fruit will be very fibrous.  From the limited research I've done since yesterday what I've learned is that it will be more like 5-7 years before the tree bears fruit and it's a roll the dice as to what variety I will get or if it will be fibrous or tasty.  What I don't understand is why is a monoembryonic seedling not true to the parent?  If the seed came from a tree that was grafted why wouldn't the fruit either be from the root stock source or the grafted on source?  And if the tree that the seed came from wasn't grafted I only see one possible source.  How can it be that a mono seedling can potentially be so many different varieties?

The "20 years to bear fruit" claim is totally false. 5-8 years is the likely time period, sometimes less.

A monoembryonic seedling is the result of sexual reproduction. You won't get any established "variety" from these seedlings. Yes, quality (and growth habit) is hit or miss.

[zands]

If you have  a place to plant mangoes then buy one or two grafted varieties from the nursery. These mango trees have been growing for 1.5-2 years and will give you a head start. If you want to buy a mango tree grown from seed (like you are doing) then you should find it on Craigs list this spring. You might find someone selling ones that are 2-3 years old.

I dunno. As soon as someone explained the difference between growing a mango tree from seed and buying a known grafted variety at a nursery I understood him immediately and bought some grafted saplings. But then I have met plenty of people who don't get it even after I have explained it five times. Maybe their mind is on running a four minute mile.

[shot]

that's how you get new varieties ,poly can have sexual cross. re.dominant and recessive genes

[bbates123]

Thanks for the replies.  I'm not sure if the parent tree is grafted or not, I'm assuming so.  I'll have to ask my neighbor next time I see her.  And I feel compelled to continue on with this seedling because I've cared for it for something like 4 months now so I feel a slight attachment to it.     I will buy another mango, grafted, so I'm sure to have at least one tree that produces tasty fruit.  But I'm still not getting why the mono seedling isn't necessarily (and probably isn't?) the same type of tree as the grafted part of the parent tree.  That's what I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around.

[zands]

This link will give you an idea of the kinds of grafted mango trees you can buy at good nurseries in Florida.
http://www.tropicalfruitnursery.com/mango/index.shtml

There are lots of new Zill mango varieties that would be nice to see on the above list...but not so far I guess

[johnb51]

What if you know that the pollen that created the mango came from the same tree?  Would it not be the same variety in that case?

[bbates123]

This link will give you an idea of the kinds of grafted mango trees you can buy at good nurseries in Florida.
http://www.tropicalfruitnursery.com/mango/index.shtml

There are lots of new Zill mango varieties that would be nice to see on the above list...but not so far I guess

I was just looking at that site earlier today.  The seem to have an excellent selection and I'm tempted to buy something from them.  Wish they weren't on the other side of the state so I could save the shipping and get a bigger tree.

[johnb51]

Even though Pine Island Nursery (Miami), which is a great establishment, never updates their "Variety Viewers," I'm fairly certain that they would get the latest Zill creations.  Don't you have some good nurseries in your area, like FruitScapes (Bokeelia)?

[bbates123]

Even though Pine Island Nursery (Miami), which is a great establishment, never updates their "Variety Viewers," I'm fairly certain that they would get the latest Zill creations.  Don't you have some good nurseries in your area, like FruitScapes (Bokeelia)?

I was just on their website actually.  Funny, I've probably driven by that place dozens of times on my way to Pineland Marina and didn't realize they sold trees there.  Got to check it out when they're open again next week.

[Zafra]

to explain the true from seed thing. when you have sexual reproduction of a fruit that is a complex combination of genes, only some of which are being expressed in the selected fruit variety, those genes get to shuffle around and express themselves however they want, meaning you get a new combination of traits. Since undesirable traits tend to be dominant in some fruit, you're more likely to get those traits surfacing than the more desirable ones. for instance, i have green eyes even though both my parents have brown eyes. my father's sister has green eyes, so we can be pretty sure my father has a green eye gene that expressed itself in me (maybe it hooked up with one on my mother's side as well - if green eyes are recessive then that must be the case). now even if i could somehow make a male clone of myself and make a baby with the new male me (eww), there's no guarantee (in fact it's quite unlikely) that we'd produce a child that was a clone or even close to a clone of me, because our many genes, latent and expressed, would play musical chairs and what comes out would be a crap shoot. for instance, it would most likely have brown eyes, which are dominant and i have them from both sides.
does that help?

[bsbullie]

Yes, growing that seed to fruition could give you a fruit that is worse than where it came from, equal to where it came from or better than where it came from....and any level of characteristics in between.   As stated, you should have your result in 5 - 10 years (more often than not, less than 10).

Pine Island Nursery's variety viewer is somewhat of a sales advertisement or even gimmick.  Descriptions cannot always be relied upon.  In addition,  they will never have all of those varieties available.

Fruitscapes will have a selection of mangoes but it will also be limited.

As far as your question anout mono seeds, best to just google and you can read all about it.  There are tons of publishings by reputable sources to explain when, where, what, why and how.  Its a physiology of many plants, not just mangoes.

[TheDom]

What if you know that the pollen that created the mango came from the same tree?  Would it not be the same variety in that case?

Short answer sans explanation: Because that's just not how sexual reproduction works.

Short answer with short explanation: Because during gamete formation in meiosis, during Prophase 1 there is a crossing over of homologous chromosomes resulting in novel (relative to the parent genotype) allele pairings in the gametes. Recombining those gametes to form an embryo will result in something quite different from the parent. This pic demonstrates it pretty simply:
https://sites.google.com/a/canacad.ac.jp/sl-hl-1-biology-4-ferguson/07-meiosis/10-1-meiosis-1

Long answer with more thorough explanation: Gonna have to wait till I'm at a legit keyboard. Doing this on the phone will take a while.

[achetadomestica]

Fruitscapes is your answer. But before you go there research a little and have an idea what you want to pick up.
The last time I went there they had about 25 types available. There are countless threads on this forum about the different cultivars
available. In July there is a mango mania weekend at the GermanAmerican facility in Cape Coral and the same weekend Fruitscapes had their own version. For 5 dollars you could try about 15 different varieties. As always Everyone will try to convince you their opinion is right. I went to Fruitscapes last July and one lady said #1 Lemomzest  #2 Nam Doc Mai #3 Dot. Then a guy walked up and said Maha Chanok is #1. You can also look up on you tube videos on how to graft mangos  When your seedling is bigger have some fun and try grafting your own. Nothing compares to a tree you started from seed and successfully grafted yourself.

[MarvelMango]

I go to Fruitscapes every Sat. and they have quite a few var. of mango's right now.
bbates123 if you go bring a appetite and eat lunch, Mrs. Bee's el salvadorian food is really good.

 

[johnb51]

What if you know that the pollen that created the mango came from the same tree?  Would it not be the same variety in that case?

Short answer sans explanation: Because that's just not how sexual reproduction works.

Short answer with short explanation: Because during gamete formation in meiosis, during Prophase 1 there is a crossing over of homologous chromosomes resulting in novel (relative to the parent genotype) allele pairings in the gametes. Recombining those gametes to form an embryo will result in something quite different from the parent. This pic demonstrates it pretty simply:
https://sites.google.com/a/canacad.ac.jp/sl-hl-1-biology-4-ferguson/07-meiosis/10-1-meiosis-1

Long answer with more thorough explanation: Gonna have to wait till I'm at a legit keyboard. Doing this on the phone will take a while.

No further explanation needed.  I get it (I think).

[zands]

This link will give you an idea of the kinds of grafted mango trees you can buy at good nurseries in Florida.
http://www.tropicalfruitnursery.com/mango/index.shtml
There are lots of new Zill mango varieties that would be nice to see on the above list...but not so far I guess

I was just looking at that site earlier today.  The seem to have an excellent selection and I'm tempted to buy something from them.  Wish they weren't on the other side of the state so I could save the shipping and get a bigger tree.

There are some really good new varieties that are not on that list. Don't rush out and buy a grafted variety today. Read more about all the variations in mangoes. Read what you see here for two weeks before buying a mango tree.
Did you know we have compact size mango varieties that don't grow so fast? We have early, mid and late season mangoes.

You also have to find out what are the good mango selling nurseries where you live. There is lots of good advice here about this.

You could even wait until mango season and taste a few kinds and then buy the tree for the variety you really like. So you would not plant your tree until August or so.

[Zafra]

What if you know that the pollen that created the mango came from the same tree?  Would it not be the same variety in that case?

Long answer with more thorough explanation: Gonna have to wait till I'm at a legit keyboard. Doing this on the phone will take a while.
[/quote]
well if you think you can do better than musical chairs, be my guest. 

[TheDom]

What if you know that the pollen that created the mango came from the same tree?  Would it not be the same variety in that case?

Long answer with more thorough explanation: Gonna have to wait till I'm at a legit keyboard. Doing this on the phone will take a while.

well if you think you can do better than musical chairs, be my guest. 
[/quote]

I think was typing while you were posting. Your longer explanation in more lay terms was spot on, good job.

[bbates123]

Thanks for all the helpful advice everyone!  I think I finally get the monoembryonic thing now and why that seedling can grow up to be a different tree.  BTW, my neighbor called me this morning and we were talking about the seedling and I was explaining the whole mono vs poly thing to her and she said "Oh, that seed had 2 shoots coming out of it"...she snipped one.  So apparently it's poly.

I think we've settled on a compact mango variety so I'm currently leaning towards a Cogshell, Carrie, Pickering, etc.  Will do some more research before wandering out to Fruitscapes.

[bsbullie]

Thanks for all the helpful advice everyone!  I think I finally get the monoembryonic thing now and why that seedling can grow up to be a different tree.  BTW, my neighbor called me this morning and we were talking about the seedling and I was explaining the whole mono vs poly thing to her and she said "Oh, that seed had 2 shoots coming out of it"...she snipped one.  So apparently it's poly.

I think we've settled on a compact mango variety so I'm currently leaning towards a Cogshell, Carrie, Pickering, etc.  Will do some more research before wandering out to Fruitscapes.

Still does not mean its poly.  I have aeen seeds from mono varieties send up more than one shoot.

I would recommend tasting those three you mentioned above before buying.  Even taate some others.  Understand tastes are totally subjective...for instance, while many like them and they are a good mango fruit for retail sales, I would never plant a Carrie.  Wouldnt ever plant a Cogshall either.  Again, thats my opinion and tastes...

[bbates123]

Thanks for all the helpful advice everyone!  I think I finally get the monoembryonic thing now and why that seedling can grow up to be a different tree.  BTW, my neighbor called me this morning and we were talking about the seedling and I was explaining the whole mono vs poly thing to her and she said "Oh, that seed had 2 shoots coming out of it"...she snipped one.  So apparently it's poly.

I think we've settled on a compact mango variety so I'm currently leaning towards a Cogshell, Carrie, Pickering, etc.  Will do some more research before wandering out to Fruitscapes.

Still does not mean its poly.  I have aeen seeds from mono varieties send up more than one shoot.

I would recommend tasting those three you mentioned above before buying.  Even taate some others.  Understand tastes are totally subjective...for instance, while many like them and they are a good mango fruit for retail sales, I would never plant a Carrie.  Wouldnt ever plant a Cogshall either.  Again, thats my opinion and tastes...

Because you don't like the taste of them or for other reasons?

[bsbullie]

Thanks for all the helpful advice everyone!  I think I finally get the monoembryonic thing now and why that seedling can grow up to be a different tree.  BTW, my neighbor called me this morning and we were talking about the seedling and I was explaining the whole mono vs poly thing to her and she said "Oh, that seed had 2 shoots coming out of it"...she snipped one.  So apparently it's poly.

I think we've settled on a compact mango variety so I'm currently leaning towards a Cogshell, Carrie, Pickering, etc.  Will do some more research before wandering out to Fruitscapes.

Still does not mean its poly.  I have aeen seeds from mono varieties send up more than one shoot.

I would recommend tasting those three you mentioned above before buying.  Even taate some others.  Understand tastes are totally subjective...for instance, while many like them and they are a good mango fruit for retail sales, I would never plant a Carrie.  Wouldnt ever plant a Cogshall either.  Again, thats my opinion and tastes...

Because you don't like the taste of them or for other reasons?

Taste on both.  Taste and texture for Carrie.  Cogshall can have productivity issues in some locations.

[TheDom]

Rob, are there any mangos you'd rate as very good to excellent that fit the bill as a compact mango?