The Tropical Fruit Forum
Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: simon_grow on October 13, 2014, 12:00:58 PM
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My friend has attempted to grow an Avocado tree multiple times over the past 8 years or so without success. He would plant a grafted store bought avocado into his soil and they would all eventually get brown leaves which fall off before the trees died. I believe he killed 5 trees before giving up. He tried planting different varieties from different retailers but they all eventually died. He lives on the side of a canyon that gets windy and perhaps his soil may be high in salts, I'm not sure.
Anyways, about three years ago, I suggested to him that he plant some avocado seeds directly into the ground in the spot where he wanted his avocado tree to be. He planted a single seed, I would suggest planting at least three, and several months after the seed sprouted, I grafted it for him with Hass scion. The original seedling was extremely vigorous before I grafted it and I believe this is the main reason the graft successfully took.
One year after the graft took, the plant was growing extremely well so my friend was a little sad when I suggested he topped his tree to promote lower more lateral growth as Hass trees are extremely vigorous, not to mention his rootstock was a seedling so it has a tap root.
Now, approximately 3 years from planting the seed, his tree produced a nice crop of about 20 Avocados. We first harvested one avocado about two weeks ago and it ripened perfectly so we harvested another 10 yesterday.
I just wanted to post this success story to motivate others out there that desperately want an Avocado tree but has failed in the past. Please try one more time with this technique and I can help you along. Start by planting 3-5 seeds in spring when the soil has warmed. If you plant the seeds early enough, you can graft it the same year. We got lucky with our one seedling graft but if I were to do it again, I would have my friend plant more seeds in case the graft fails.
My friend was so excited about this success that last year he planted a Reed Avocado seed several feet away from this Hass and he grafted this Reed Seedling with an actual Reed scion and it took. The Reed scion has since pushed a lot of new growth and you can kinda see it to the left of the Hass in the picture although the Hass has grown around the Reed.
Please feel free to post here if you've had a similar experience or if you need help.
Simon
(http://s28.postimg.cc/lpr2k6i89/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/lpr2k6i89/)
(http://s28.postimg.cc/i3l97jbux/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/i3l97jbux/)
(http://s28.postimg.cc/l919k053d/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/l919k053d/)
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Good story! I, too have gone thru more avocado trees than I care to admit. Its the cold and then the sunburn.
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That's a GREAT story, Simon! Thanks for sharing. Your idea of planting seeds, then grafting sounds excellent. How did your friend start the seed? Straight to the ground, or with the toothpick method? I'm somewhat in the same boat. I've killed probably 2-3 store bought trees. Like your friend, I planted them , they put out new growth, I was happy seeing that. Then they all began to deteriorate, brown leaves, black branches, death. I tried different locations in the yard. But, I didn't give up. I selected 2 well protected spots, put in a Haas and a Fuerte. Both are doing very well, the Haas survived a winter already, so I think it'll make it, it's over 8' tall now, though nowhere as lush as green as your friend's. The Fuerte was planted during the summer, only a few months ago, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
Thanks,
Trung
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Great success story, Simon, and thanks for sharing. I am going this route with mangos. I bought 4 grafted ones from Emily, and 3 died. Only Glenn survived. I am now planting mango seeds in the ground to graft in the future. My cousin had 2 avocados from HD that died. Mine, a Hass, is doing OK though (knock on woods) in its 3rd year with 20 some fruits still hanging.
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several months after the seed sprouted, I grafted it for him with Hass scion.
Very exciting! I just googled this, and according to the Infallible Internet (tm) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hass_avocado) "All commercial, fruit-bearing Hass avocado trees have been grown from grafted seedlings propagated from a single tree. . ."
Does this mean that the vast majority of commercial avocados in the U.S. constitutes a genetically identical monoculture? :o
My friend was so excited about this success that last year he planted a Reed Avocado seed several feet away from this Hass and he grafted this Reed Seedling with an actual Reed scion and it took.
What was the motivation for grafting a Reed scion onto Reed rootstock?
Start by planting 3-5 seeds in spring when the soil has warmed. If you plant the seeds early enough, you can graft it the same year.
At what size/diameter do you normally graft?
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That's a GREAT story, Simon! Thanks for sharing. Your idea of planting seeds, then grafting sounds excellent. How did your friend start the seed? Straight to the ground, or with the toothpick method? I'm somewhat in the same boat. I've killed probably 2-3 store bought trees. Like your friend, I planted them , they put out new growth, I was happy seeing that. Then they all began to deteriorate, brown leaves, black branches, death. I tried different locations in the yard. But, I didn't give up. I selected 2 well protected spots, put in a Haas and a Fuerte. Both are doing very well, the Haas survived a winter already, so I think it'll make it, it's over 8' tall now, though nowhere as lush as green as your friend's. The Fuerte was planted during the summer, only a few months ago, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
Thanks,
Trung
Trung, he planted the seed directly into the ground. If your tree can make it to its second year, you are probably good to go.
Nch, I'm also doing the same thing with my mangos. I've had a couple mango trees die on me, I believe it was a rootstock issue. Before my trees died, I noticed that the cambium around the rootstock felt soft. I scattered many Champaigne and Kent seeds all around my yard so that I can graft my named varieties onto them. I hope that with a taproot, they will grow more vigorously, which is a good thing here in SoCal.
I've only done a few Avocado grafts but I normally graft when slightly thicker than a pencil, around the thickness of a sharpie marker. I believe a strong and vigorous rootstock that is pushing growth in warm weather is key.
The motivation was based on my belief that it is genetically favorable to graft onto rootstock from the seed of the named variety you are trying to cultivate. At the time, I was researching Lychee grafting but some researchers brought up the point of different varieties of a Lychees having different number of chromosomes, some have 2n some 3n/4n. I don't believe Avocado has this issue but I figured the graft might take easier if he used seed from the same variety he was trying to graft.
From the little knowledge I have on avocado, I believe there are different clonal rootstocks that are used based on soil condition and bioburden of the soil. Some clonal rootstocks are better adapted to salty soils, some are better for nematodes and others are better for phytopthora.
Simon
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Very interesting post, thanks for sharing this with us. I too, have had many failures with Avocado trees, I currently have 3 avocados plants in pots (2 out of 3 are in half whiskey barrels) from store bought about 3 years ago, and none of them produces any fruit! I thought growing avocado from seed takes many years (like 7-10?) before it starts to bear fruit, but I see your method is different.
So, I will plant those seeds in the ground (not in the pots, right? Why?) and hopefully will be ready to graft unto it next year. By the way, do you use the seeds from market bought avocados?
Thanks again, Simon!
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Great approach Simon. Well done! Necessity is the mother of invention.
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I just yanked a Fuerte out of the ground and stuck it in a pot. After 1 1/2 years in the ground it was leafless and looked almost dead - the Hass that was planted next to it is looking pretty bad too.
Strangely, a Little Cado and a Bacon planted in half whiskey barrel pots only a few feet away have thrived and produced fruit.
I never thought it would be so hard to grow avocados.
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Does this mean that the vast majority of commercial avocados in the U.S. constitutes a genetically identical monoculture? :o
Yes.
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Here is a clue why lots of avocado trees in California turn brown and fail:
How Much Water to Grow an Avocado?
http://www.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2014/10/avocado-drought-chile-california (http://www.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2014/10/avocado-drought-chile-california)
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Nice work Simon!
Regarding grafted plants in California, my understanding (from the county farm advisor) is that most of them are on Zutano seedlings.
I've been throwing seeds around my trees for approach grafting and the differences in vigor is surprising. Some have reached the height of my planted trees while others are still 4" tall.
Regarding Mangos Simon, I had a mango seedling experiment going as well with the same thing in mind but pulled them all up this summer because not a single one had shown any growth their second season. Turns out they all had taproots going sideways about two inches below the surface. That was 6 Kents, 6 Manilla and several Haden. The Kents were definitely the most vigorous the first season, but nothing the 2nd. Meanwhile a goldenrain seedling has invaded one of the areas and is already a 3 ft bush. :(
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Here is a clue why lots of avocado trees in California turn brown and fail:
How Much Water to Grow an Avocado?
http://www.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2014/10/avocado-drought-chile-california (http://www.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2014/10/avocado-drought-chile-california)
Avocados do suck up a lot of water - but that wouldn't explain why a seedling directly sown in the ground would do better than a commercially propagated #5 tree.
I have been told that avocados do not take transplanting very well.
Simon's success story would certainly support that theory.
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Very interesting post, thanks for sharing this with us. I too, have had many failures with Avocado trees, I currently have 3 avocados plants in pots (2 out of 3 are in half whiskey barrels) from store bought about 3 years ago, and none of them produces any fruit! I thought growing avocado from seed takes many years (like 7-10?) before it starts to bear fruit, but I see your method is different.
So, I will plant those seeds in the ground (not in the pots, right? Why?) and hopefully will be ready to graft unto it next year. By the way, do you use the seeds from market bought avocados?
Thanks again, Simon!
Samu, growing from seed normally does take many years but only if you don't graft. Because I grafted the tree for my friend, the scion enabled the seedling to fruit earlier. If you were to plant inside a pot, you would be defeating the purpose of my post:) By planting a seed directly into the ground will enable the seedling to grow vigorously with a taproot. I would still work the native soil to loosen it up but don't add any amendments( thanks Mark in Texas). My friend used a store bought Hass seed for the Hass scion I grafted and he used a Reed seed for the Reed scion he grafted.
Thanks Zands!
JeffDM, it can be pretty difficult but try this approach to see if you get better luck.
Ricshaw, I heard somewhere that CA will stop watering many of the avocado trees, in essence killing them due to mandatory water restrictions. Avocados do use quite a bit of water.
Hey Shane, did your mango seedlings taproots go sideways after two inches because you have hard impenetrable clay and rocky soil? If this was the cause, perhaps you can till the soil first to loosen it up? I wonder if your mango seedling would have eventually taken off? I have some mango seedlings that stall a bit before pushing.
Simon
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Here is a clue why lots of avocado trees in California turn brown and fail:
How Much Water to Grow an Avocado?
http://www.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2014/10/avocado-drought-chile-california (http://www.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2014/10/avocado-drought-chile-california)
Avocados do suck up a lot of water - but that wouldn't explain why a seedling directly sown in the ground would do better than a commercially propagated #5 tree.
I have been told that avocados do not take transplanting very well.
Simon's success story would certainly support that theory.
Pltworld, that's the other part of the equation. Avocados don't like their roots disturbed and commercially available pre grafted Avocado trees can be pot bound with encircling roots so what does one do? Some may be severely pot bound requiring some root pruning thus disturbing the roots. This can put your tree into a state of shock. If this is the situation, it may be a good idea to put up some sort of shade to protect from direct sunlight and also minimize dessication.
Simon
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For those of you that are going to try this technique, after your graft has taken and has pushed, you may want to consider adding additional grafts of different flower types to your tree so that you can increase production.
Simon
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Simon,
I will need to learn from you how to graft avocados. I've never done any grafting. Can you describe your technique? Do you have a video?
Thanks,
Trung
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Hello Trung, I used a cleft graft for the Hass and my friend used a veneer graft for the Reed. I use the same technique I use for mango. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ICVwHs4Nero (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ICVwHs4Nero) my best advice for grafting Avocado is to use very vigorous rootstock that is pushing new growth in warm weather. The preparation of the avocado scion is also very important. I like to collect my scion from an upper branch in full sunlight. Someone posted a thread regarding the different stages of Avocado scions, I'll see if I can find it later. Make sure you have a really tight bind when you perform your graft and i don't like to put more than about two layers of film when wrapping my scions because it can make it difficult for the new growth to push through.
Simon
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Nice job Simon, and kudos on using common sense. Also, glad you accepted my advice and didn't amend the soil. Those cados look incredible, I'm jealous!
What many don't understand is how different the structure is of an avocado root system compared to other trees - no root hairs like an oak, sponge like epidermal tissue, etc. I've hand planted literally thousands of trees and the best albeit slowest is mimicking what mama nature does - planting an acorn directly in the ground for example. Not many of us have that time including myself so we improvise.
Just got a box of Reeds in from a mail order guy out of Fallbrook. Probably my favorite avocado and one I'm growing in the greenhouse, grafted onto a Florida pit and now 8' H. I expect it to bloom heavy this spring.
Good luck
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Oh, and you're right about the matching chromosomal thingie between scion and rootstock. Sometimes it's just not meant to be. For 2 years in a row I tried grafting 6 different varieties to a Brogdon - every time they failed. I cut the Brogdon back below the graft and now have a VERY vigorous Waldin to use a rootstock this spring.
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If I could I would plant all my seeds directly into the ground.
When you grow something in a pot the all the roots including the tap root are clusters in the pot. But anyone who has ever pulled a seedling out of the ground can attest to the fact that naturally small trees send their roots out far both vertically and horizontally.
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I think Simon point about avocadoes really needing that tap root development is crucial
- My theory is other trees (mango etc) are better at making a tap root even if planted pot bound.....but not before you cut encircling and bound up roots
- What Simon did can be replicated in a pot by lining a pot with old nylon window screening.
- Use a too large piece of nylon window screening so it hangs over outside the pot so you can grab onto it later and use as handles
- grow the avocado seed in a 3 gallon pot that is spacious so that it will develop a tap root
- graft it
- plant within a year from seed sprouting
- when you plant you place the window screening with the contents of the pot in your planting hole then
- pull out the nylon window screening
- my theorizing
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Thanks Mark, I've put what I learned from you to good use. All my new trees are being planted in native soil, unfortunately, many of my trees that I planted several years ago were planted in amended holes but luckily they were all planted on mounds.
I've dug up several plants from holes that were heavily amended and it were as if they were growing in a burried pot.
Reed is one of the creamiest of all the different Avocado varieties I've tried. The tree is also small, columnar and the fruit does not turn brown or discolor for a long time.
I hope the Waldin rootstock works better for you. I wonder if there are chromosomal differences between the different races of avocado? Also, I wonder if you would have more success if you grafted onto a seedling grown in the ground be a pot? It's worth a shot!
David, I've seen first hand what you are talking about. It may take a while for seedlings planted in poor hard soils to find a soft spot but when they do, they quickly take off.
I believe that when seeds sprout, the plant sends down a tap root that continues to grow down and laterally until it finds a soft spot in the ground where it can go down as far as possible to reach the water table. Sometimes, like what Shane experienced, seedlings planted in poor, hard soils cannot send down the tap root very far because of rocks and an impervious hard layer, this may cause a delay in the seedlings growth because I believe the seedling is using much of its energy in extending its tap root laterally, looking for that soft spot to go down.
It would not make much sense for a seedling that was Not able to send down its tap root to expend lots of energy into its canopy because it's roots are on the surface of the soil and is thus more likely to dry out. If it spent a lot of energy on making lots of leaves, it will be in trouble on a hot day as it is not able to wick up water from deeper in the ground.
Zands, that would be cool to see if it works, I guess we can also plant in a fabric pot? I would still recommend transplanting into the ground as soon as possible in order to prevent common pot grown fruit tree problems such as over/under watering, not stepping up the pot properly, and over/under fertilization of plants in pots.
I realized a while back how often I have to water plants in pots on hot days and wondered why my plants weren't doing so well. I thought and I thought and i finally realized that due to my frequent watering, I was flushing much of the nutrients from my soil. Not only that, my frequent waterings were gradually shifting the pH of my soil so even though I start off with a potting mix around pH 6.8, my frequent watering shifted it to 8.0.
When I realized this, I fertilized more frequently but then half a year later, my plants weren't doing good again and I discovered that due to my now more frequent fertilization schedule, my soil was nutrient locked. I like to conserve water so I don't like to see much runoff when I water potted plants and this caused my nutrient lock. Now I realize I have to flush my potted plants every once in a while if there are no rains.
Simon
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I've dug up several plants from holes that were heavily amended and it were as if they were growing in a burried pot.
Yep, I told you so. Almost had to put on my flame suit around here before warning folks. Old habits are hard to give up.
Reed is one of the creamiest of all the different Avocado varieties I've tried. The tree is also small, columnar and the fruit does not turn brown or discolor for a long time.
I hope the Waldin rootstock works better for you. I wonder if there are chromosomal differences between the different races of avocado? Also, I wonder if you would have more success if you grafted onto a seedling grown in the ground be a pot? It's worth a shot!
It would take a crane to get this Waldin out the ground. All the other ones were cleft or veneer grafted to Florida pits in a 3 gal. pot. One of them is Gwen which is Will Brokaw's fave. I have a Sharwil that is holding one fruit with a heavy bloom next spring, hopefully.
David, I've seen first hand what you are talking about. It may take a while for seedlings planted in poor hard soils to find a soft spot but when they do, they quickly take off.
One of my businesses is field planted Xmas trees and you make a great point. I can plant a thousand liners, 9" tall seedlings or clones, and they will sit there for a year looking pretty sad and then explode in growth. First year a newly planted tree needs to set a root system. Another hard lesson learned on shade, fruit or nut trees is one must let the trunk go "trashy" for at least 2 years, then shape (prune) them up. You'll get a healthier more vigorous tree with much larger girth than if you start taking the shears to it quickly.
If you have to water often I highly recommend an encapsulated plant food. I use it on everything when first planting in the field or in pots. Polyon 12 month 18-4-9 with micros. Continuous feed is the only way to go.
Mark
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For Simon, Mark or anyone.....
If you have a hard clay soil what do you think would happen if you dug down 24" with a post hole digger. Then put that soil back in the hole, making sure to put the top soil back on top.
Then planted your avocado seedling in this? Or any fruit tree? This would make for easier tap root growth.
****** Simon. Just looked at your photo and your friends avocado trees look so green and healthy
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^^
How do avocados compare with other trees with respect to "taproot drilling" capability? I have horrid clay adobe about 18" down, but I also have lots of healthy trees, including California Pepper, varous pine trees, Eucalyptus, and walnut. Are these also deep-rooted trees? Since these do well, does that tell me anything about how avocados and mangoes will do?
I do have two neighbors with healthy avocado trees.
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^^
How do avocados compare with other trees with respect to "taproot drilling" capability? I have horrid clay adobe about 18" down, but I also have lots of healthy trees, including California Pepper, varous pine trees, Eucalyptus, and walnut. Are these also deep-rooted trees? Since these do well, does that tell me anything about how avocados and mangoes will do?
I do have two neighbors with healthy avocado trees.
I have horrid adobe clay and grow avocado trees and have neighbors and orchards near me with healthy avocado trees.
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For Simon, Mark or anyone.....
If you have a hard clay soil what do you think would happen if you dug down 24" with a post hole digger. Then put that soil back in the hole, making sure to put the top soil back on top.
Then planted your avocado seedling in this? Or any fruit tree? This would make for easier tap root growth.
That is kind of how commercial avocado growers plant avocado trees. The young grafted trees come in a plastic sleeve the size of a post hole. A hole is dug with a post hole auger the depth of the plastic sleeve. The sleeve is removed when the tree is slipped into the post hole.
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For Simon, Mark or anyone.....
If you have a hard clay soil what do you think would happen if you dug down 24" with a post hole digger. Then put that soil back in the hole, making sure to put the top soil back on top.
Then planted your avocado seedling in this? Or any fruit tree? This would make for easier tap root growth.
That is kind of how commercial avocado growers plant avocado trees. The young grafted trees come in a plastic sleeve the size of a post hole. A hole is dug with a post hole auger the depth of the plastic sleeve. The sleeve is removed when the tree is slipped into the post hole.
I have seen fruit trees for orchards come in deep narrow two gallon pots that look like this. This would help promote tap roots. What you describe has no bottom so you can plant them quicker and easier. But the shape is about the same. Yours is cylindrical.
(http://s29.postimg.cc/4lupmkbsz/grow_pot.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/4lupmkbsz/)
For those who who want to make tall cylindrical bottomless pots.... Go gather up corrugated plastic election signs after November 4th election. Get out there on Wednesday. They are great material to work with. The wires are also good for caging tomatoes
You could also cut the bottom off a 3 gallon plastic pot. Turn upside down and plant your avocado seed in it. Then pot will slip off when you plant it.
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Hey Shane, did your mango seedlings taproots go sideways after two inches because you have hard impenetrable clay and rocky soil? If this was the cause, perhaps you can till the soil first to loosen it up? I wonder if your mango seedling would have eventually taken off? I have some mango seedlings that stall a bit before pushing.
Simon
I suspect it was because I had layered my clay and compost in those sections when i built the walls, but it still surprised me because I was watering thoroughly.
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Zands, your goal is to fracture the soil, give the roots a chance to enter native soil. Over time those fractures will close up as tight as before but by then the roots will be growing well unless compromised because of real problems such as high salts, water logging. I use everything from ripping my tree planting site with a chisel behind a tractor which rips the soil to a depth of 2' to using a post hole digger and then a miner's pick to fracture the sides and bottom manually.
Mark
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My neighbor has beautiful, productive avocado trees. He accomplished this by deep watering his trees. He has a watering systems in which he has pvc pipes going deep into the ground to provide that needed water for his mature avocado trees. So far, it's working beautifully for him.
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For Simon, Mark or anyone.....
If you have a hard clay soil what do you think would happen if you dug down 24" with a post hole digger. Then put that soil back in the hole, making sure to put the top soil back on top.
Then planted your avocado seedling in this? Or any fruit tree? This would make for easier tap root growth.
That is kind of how commercial avocado growers plant avocado trees. The young grafted trees come in a plastic sleeve the size of a post hole. A hole is dug with a post hole auger the depth of the plastic sleeve. The sleeve is removed when the tree is slipped into the post hole.
Zands, I think digging a hole and then backfilling it with the original soil and planting your seed is a great way to go. It would make it easier for the seedlings roots to dig down. Although the soil will compact again, it should still be looser than the surrounding soil that was not loosened.
Waterbug, I'm not sure about the other trees but 18 inches is great soil compared to my Poway Conglomerate. I can only stick my shovel down 1 inch before I hit rock and clay. I hired some helping hands to help me dig my planting holes and after sweating our way down several inches, my helpers suggested I rent a jackhammer. I would assume Avocado and mango will do ok with 18 inches of soil especially if your neighbor has a healthy Avocado.
Another thing I learned in another post from Mark in Texas is that the younger the tree you plant, the better and faster they establish.
Shane, could it have been a sunlight, pH or fertilizer issue that caused the stalled growth of your seedlings. It kinda makes sense the taproot grew horizontally if you layered compost and clay. The roots seem to want to find the path of least resistance.
Simon
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That is kind of how commercial avocado growers plant avocado trees. The young grafted trees come in a plastic sleeve the size of a post hole. A hole is dug with a post hole auger the depth of the plastic sleeve. The sleeve is removed when the tree is slipped into the post hole.
My Christmas trees (pines and other goodies) come in 7" tall cones about 1.75" at the top. I use a garden auger of the same diameter on a 18V drill to dig the holes. Pop the liner out, drop it in the hole, do a little cover up and then scratch in about a tbsp. of Polyon.
I can't believe some of you have to use a jackhammer to bust up your soil!
Mark
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"I can't believe some of you have to use a jackhammer to bust up your soil!"
Oh , yeah Mark that is for real . You ever try digging in hard caliche clay soil . Take a pick to it and it bounces right off the hard soil back at you. You have to wet first wait a couple days while it softens then dig!
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I didn't end up renting a jackhammer but I wish I did. The guys wanted to quit digging after about ten minutes and demanded more money and better equipment. I obliged and picked up some long picks and crowbars, the shovels didn't work at all. Only useful after soil was loosened. I took some pictures, I'll see if I can find them.
Simon
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"I can't believe some of you have to use a jackhammer to bust up your soil!"
Oh , yeah Mark that is for real . You ever try digging in hard caliche clay soil . Take a pick to it and it bounces right off the hard soil back at you. You have to wet first wait a couple days while it softens then dig!
What is able to grow in that stuff? What kind of soils do you have in the Fallbrook area?
Seems to me the only way to grow would be raised beds or mounds.
BTW, had our first Reed shipped from McManigle Grove, Fallbrook, last night and all we could say is OMG! That has got to be the richest, creamiest, most nutty avocado we've ever eaten in our life. We almost didn't get the slices to a plate for eating it right out of the peel with a spoon.
Mark
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Be happy water loosens up your soil, the only way to open a hole in SFL requires a heavy excavator
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Here is a hole I dug earlier this year, this hole is not for trees, just experimenting on Watermelon but you can see the clay and rocks. Only about 1 inch of topsoil before the cement like layer. This hole took about 2-3 hours to dig.
Simon
(http://s8.postimg.cc/b2ot3yf35/IMG_4262.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/b2ot3yf35/)
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Hi! very good history, I need some help:
Some months ago I sow 5 or so avocado seeds from fruits from my parents tree, their fruits are not good so I want to graft them.
They are growing very strong, 1m tall (3 feet) now, and I will get some wood from a neighbor that has a good variety.
The question is:
what kind of graft should I practice? cleft graft?
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This video is good for grafting seedlings, I believe Carlos is a member of this forum.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0K-SBInTyFk
Here's one for top working:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI51Ck6Nk4E
I'm no expert on avocados or grafting, just got lucky. If you have vigorous rootstock, you're on the right track! Let us know how it goes😀
Simon
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I can't believe some of you have to use a jackhammer to bust up your soil!
I'll take this an opportunity to advocate for the Green Broadfork of Destiny (https://meadowcreature.com/broadforks):
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3552590/SoilLayersAndBroadfork.jpg)
From top to bottom I have a scant few inches of good topsoil, then yellowish clay, then compacted sand(stone), then black adobe clay. I have a similar experience to mangomanic in that a pickaxe is just useless. It'll make a tiny little dent, and that's it. If I try to dig a hole with a garden spade I can jump my 220# up and down on it all day long and never penetrate more than 4". I have a rototiller, and if I attempt to till un-forked soil it will just skate across the top.
With the broadfork I can get down a good 12", and without breaking my back. It's still hard work, but it doesn't hurt.
So I typically fork in rows until I've prepped a few hundred sf, and then I run the tiller over it 2-3 times. Then I can actually plant something.
Of course I also paid $250 for it :o :o, so it's not for everyone, but it's the best garden tool I own. And now it's "only" $200, so it's a bargain!
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Here is a hole I dug earlier this year, this hole is not for trees, just experimenting on Watermelon but you can see the clay and rocks. Only about 1 inch of topsoil before the cement like layer. This hole took about 2-3 hours to dig.
Simon
(http://s8.postimg.cc/b2ot3yf35/IMG_4262.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/b2ot3yf35/)
I wouldnt even be a able to dig that. Its rock all the way down
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(http://s22.postimg.cc/5nqp4g6nx/IMG_0171.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/5nqp4g6nx/)
(http://s22.postimg.cc/ork0ksji5/IMG_0187.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/ork0ksji5/)
I dont even have 6 inches of soil before you hit soild and I mean solid limestone
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I'll take this an opportunity to advocate for the Green Broadfork of Destiny (https://meadowcreature.com/broadforks):
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3552590/SoilLayersAndBroadfork.jpg)
That looks like the real deal! Looks solid and well built. I don't know how many fork handles I've busted in my gardening days but it's a bunch.
Soil looks crumbly, and that's a good thing.
Any way you guys can get a tractor onto your property? Only issue might be spinning of your tires but if you have/rent a 4 wheel drive tractor and drop the chisel/knife about 4" with every pass, it will break up concrete down to 2'. Once that's done your roots have a place to go. After you plant add mulch and/or compost frequently in order to establish a nice feeding zone for surface roots.
Bought this one for $50. Is one of my most valuable tools. Have prepped hardpan for a vineyard, wildflower stand, 60 trees around the house, hundreds of rows for Xmas tress...you name it.
(http://s27.postimg.cc/qdd45cfjj/Chisel.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/qdd45cfjj/)
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I can't believe some of you have to use a jackhammer to bust up your soil!
I'll take this an opportunity to advocate for the Green Broadfork of Destiny (https://meadowcreature.com/broadforks):
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3552590/SoilLayersAndBroadfork.jpg)
From top to bottom I have a scant few inches of good topsoil, then yellowish clay, then compacted sand(stone), then black adobe clay. I have a similar experience to mangomanic in that a pickaxe is just useless. It'll make a tiny little dent, and that's it. If I try to dig a hole with a garden spade I can jump my 220# up and down on it all day long and never penetrate more than 4". I have a rototiller, and if I attempt to till un-forked soil it will just skate across the top.
With the broadfork I can get down a good 12", and without breaking my back. It's still hard work, but it doesn't hurt.
So I typically fork in rows until I've prepped a few hundred sf, and then I run the tiller over it 2-3 times. Then I can actually plant something.
Of course I also paid $250 for it :o :o , so it's not for everyone, but it's the best garden tool I own. And now it's "only" $200, so it's a bargain!
So with this broadfork you can stand on it and your body weight will dig into your soil. I suppose you rock sideways a bit to get it to penetrate..... But will it penetrate??
You then rototill a few times. Looks like a plan!
That broadfork is from the old double digging school of Alan Chadwick and John Jevons
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Gosh - I'll never complain about my sandy soil again!
GREAT job, Simon - I've always like your positive outlook
and knowledge seeking and experiments you seem to
perform on every project.
You are so much more than a Brix Master and sugar cane
juicer!!!!
Gary
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Thanks Gary,
I think I'm approximately 70% sugar cane juicer and 30% experimenter.
I really hope this post will help those out there there that have previously tried and failed at growing avocados to give it another shot. My friend really really loves Avocados and it was really heartbreaking for him to plant each avocado tree and watch as it slowly died. We were both so excited when we first saw the new growth pushing through the para film but i didn't want to get his hopes up and I kept telling him that there was still a chance the graft could fail. Now that we have harvested the first avocados, and they did ripen properly, we can raise our arms and proclaim victory. I think Julie Frink would be proud of us:)
This victory is dedicated to the little guy/gal, the runt that survived, the zone pusher. The underdog that got knocked down 5 times and got up 6. Plant that seed and watch it grow!
Simon
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So with this broadfork you can stand on it and your body weight will dig into your soil. I suppose you rock sideways a bit to get it to penetrate..... But will it penetrate??
You then rototill a few times. Looks like a plan!
That broadfork is from the old double digging school of Alan Chadwick and John Jevons
Yes, exactly. I have some old video of myself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KBVJnKgsnw&list=UUE0jx2Z6qbc5Co8x8Kyisag) using the 'fork on some of my worst soil. Look how long it takes just to get the tines all the way in the first time.
Back on topic with respect to avocados, I suppose this might contribute to the "virtual pot" problem if I didn't dig deeply and widely enough. But if you need to fracture soil, and you don't have access to a chisel plow, the broadfork works very, very well.
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My soil has a fair amount of clay: not hard at all.
This summer i have lost TWO avocados (bacon and mexicola), I'm assuming because root rot.
I will try the seedling technique, but i wonder if i will able to graft low enough. I'm assuming i will have to use T budding. Cleft grafts usually don't give very low grafts.
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My soil has a fair amount of clay: not hard at all.
This summer i have lost TWO avocados (bacon and mexicola), I'm assuming because root rot.
I will try the seedling technique, but i wonder if i will able to graft low enough. I'm assuming i will have to use T budding. Cleft grafts usually don't give very low grafts.
Hey Pancrazio, If you think it may be root rot/phytopthora, you may want to graft onto phytopthora resistant rootstock. I can't recall which varieties are resistant but I do remember reading about it somewhere.
Simon
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Thank you for your suggestion. I have heard about them, but as usual, the problem here is two folded: the first problem is recovering something phytopthora resistant, the second problem is having it from a clone cold hardy enough.
This paired with the fact that avocado are exceedingly rare in Italy (avocados isn't exactly the staple of italian cuisine lol) makes finding a good rootstock a feature of determination all by itself.
I will try for sure, but I will also try the method you suggested at the beginning of this topic. Will let you know!
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Pancrazio -- maybe you could find someone who can mail you some Zutano seeds? A lot of nurseries in Northern California use Zutano seedlings as rootstock and they seem to do well in our cold / wet winters.
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Maybe i can find something, I remember a guy around Rome that grows a Zutano. But i would prefer a mexicola as rootstock.
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How long can I keep an avocado seed before planting? Days, weeks? How should I store it? I should mention that the peel around the seed is gone.
Thanks,
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Avocado seeds loose viability within about a month. It should really be planted or put in wAter within a few days for best results. https://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/morton/avocado_ars.html (https://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/morton/avocado_ars.html)
Simon
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Thanks Simon, I have 2 seeds from avos I picked off the sidewalk from a huge tree that was rocked hard by the statewide rainstorm a couple weeks ago. A bunch of avos fell to the ground, I was late to the area, and only found 2 left. ;D I figure if this tree can grow in my area to over 20' tall, then I can use it as rootstock and graft reed or haas to it later.
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Anyone have any Avocado seeds from Mexicola or Zutano to spare? I couldn't get as many Mexicolas from a relative as I was hoping to, and would like to start a bunch more for rootstock.
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I've also planted an avocado seed directly in the soil with good results. my technique was for cold hardiness: read below.
in spring time:
I selected a large seed west indian type that had lots of 'energy' for vigor. I dug a bowl like hole in the sandy soil on the south side of my house. and planted the seed below grade in the center of the hole. covered the seed and place a wire cage away to keep the squirrels from finding my seed. It grew and then I grafted a 'lila' with wedge graft technique. wrapped it in shadecloth and waited. It turned out beautifully and I slowly backfilled the hole to cover the rootstock with sand. I wanted the 'lila' which is cold hardy to root in since the root stock was tropical and cold sensitive type not good for North Florida. I slowly added sand throughout the year. after two seasons the tree was 8 ft tall and had its first blooms. surviving 20 degrees.
the key it to plant below grade then bury the grafted portion so the cold hardy tree roots in. Then if you get freezing cold weather the rootstock wont die below your hardy grafted tree.
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I see what you have done. With wedge graft you mean a cleft graft?
You technique can also work for me even if, i must admit, i would be scared of root rot on grafted plant. As far as i know plants don't like when their rootstock is buried.
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I cut the top off of the rootstock, solid it down the center, then insert bud wood with a V shape cut into the rootstock. It made for a perfect straight graft and the seedling had plenty of 'go juice' to get it to grow.
the root stock was just a seedling and not hardened off so it didn't mind being buried with sand. I slowly backfilled around it about 1 month at a time for about 5 months or so. my goof friend John recommended to me this technique and it worked with great results.
a little miracle grow liquid fertilizer drenched around the base to encourage feeder roots from the stem so the grafted wood would root out too. it also grew like a rocket.
like this
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQYQmyFx_jd46or_voX4x0AY5_KBI7Q2A8ddq40aX_v_nRnNiPt)
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Uhm, seems really interesting I will consider this. Would save me a lot of effort to search for an hardy rootstock.
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I referenced this topic on a post here: http://phoenixtropicals.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=748 (http://phoenixtropicals.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=748)
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Simon,
I wanted to thank you for putting this post together. I also fall into the the camp of planting avocado trees in vain, to see them do good in the spring but as soon as the stress of summer (especially down here) hits they wither up and die. So I also thought to plant some avocado seeds directly on my mound. I planted a bunch last year of all kinds of different varieties with the thought being that there will be enough genetic variation that will produce a rootstock that can withstand our salty water and high temps. I was not even considering the other factors that you point out in the original post (sprouts in the environment it will be living in so it builds a relationship with the soil microbes and chemistry right off the bat, no transplant shock, taproot is allowed to grow unimpeded and undistrubed, etc.). Over this winter I had 3 decent sized seedling (4-6 inches) that had sprouted during the fall and we had a pretty cold snap in December. My yard got to 26 F and stayed there for a few hours for 2 nights. And these seedlings showed absolutely no cold burn or damage at all, I was shocked. Now I have a dozen or so seedlings of various sizes and I will pick 2 or 3 that weathers the summer the best and graft on to those in the fall.
I had given up on growing avocados here, but now I am full of optimism again. Thank you for sharing your process and thought and the success that you have had with it. I love avocados (Reeds are my all-time favorite) and am looking forward to some fall grafting. Thanks again for this post!
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Have you seen my post about this subject on http://phoenixtropicals.com/phpbb/index.php, (http://phoenixtropicals.com/phpbb/index.php,) starch? What kind of seedling did you use? I haven't done this before, so can you post some pictures?
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darkcoolboo,
I just followed the link and found this post: http://phoenixtropicals.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=748 (http://phoenixtropicals.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=748) . Nice, I like your summary of the method and advantages. The seedling that I planted are very random. I did not try to group them by variety, I just chucked them all out on my mound at random spots after I was done eating them. The seeds that I have out there are: Reed, Bacon, Lamb, Zutano, Hass, Nobel, Pinkerton, Fuerte and MacArthur. The biggest seedlings are either Reed or Lamb (just judging by the size of the pit, both of which are huge). My mound is made up of half native soil and the other half is: sand, garden soil, deodorized manure, citrus and cactus mix. Basically for good drainage. I have a layer of vermicompost and manure on the top and the avocado seeds are buried in that.
Here is what they look like now:
(http://s27.postimg.cc/gmpt488zj/IMG_20150304_164231622.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/gmpt488zj/)
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Hey Starch, congratulations on your seedlings! You are almost there. If your grafts take, they should grow extremely fast since there is no transplant shock and also because of the taproot. When you graft, just be sure to graft pretty low, perhaps just below the bottom most true leaf so pretty much an epicotyl graft. This is important so that the seedling will not sprout a new branch from the leaf axial. If you perform a high graft with lots of seedling leaves below the graft, you will have a difficult time constantly removing new seedling growth every year.
You may also want to consider performing a few grafts after your last chance of frost if your seedlings are thick enough. This will give your graft more time to heal. Please keep us updated on the progress of your Avocado plants! I am super excited for you. I know how frustrating it can be to see avocado plants purchased from the nursery gradually die. My friend is so happy now with his tree. Your perseverance will pay off.
Simon
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Thanks Simon!
That is good advice on the grafts, will do. I will hopefully have a few seedlings to choose from after the summer (see which ones survive our heat the best), so I will likely have some choices in matching calibers low on the stem to the scion. And if I can get my hands on a couple of Reed scions I will probably do a grafts on a couple of different seedlings to up my chances for a successful tree.
I will definitely keep you updated, thanks for the support and encouragement!
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Great! I'm glad people are reading (since you guys don't really respond on that website)! Did you start the seeds in a seed starting mix, or just dig the hole, amend and toss them in? Also, a silly question, but where do you buy California avocado fruit in Arizona, notable the Reed?
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No starting mix, just made a small hole and put them on the mound and covered them back up. I would say I get the most germination when the top of the pit is about 1/2" below the surface (enough coverage to just keep it moist but shallow enough so the sun warms it easily).
There are a few services out there that will ship you CA avocados. The one that I use is Avocado Diva (http://www.avocadodiva.com/ (http://www.avocadodiva.com/)). She basically drives up and down the coast to small ranches between San Diego and LA and with her crew picks them fresh off the tree and ships them that week. We get our avocados and they typically ripen 7-10 days after we receive them. Because they are small ranches they have lots of different trees so we get to experience the full range of the CA avocado seasons. For someone like me who is a major avocado lover and doesn't live anywhere near avocado country, it is a really awesome service. I have been absolutely happy with it.
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Oh, and speaking of the Reed specifically: Avocado Diva ships them when they are in season. But I have also found them the last 2 years at the Whole Foods at 101 and Ray (they might be at other area Whole Foods too, I can only confirm this one). So every week starting in August I am up there snooping around for Reeds. They are my favorites.
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Oh Simon - can you pull off one more miracle and advise me on how to get my
twice transplanted 6 foot tall, semi-dwarf Mexican (I think) avocado to flower...
and maybe even FRUIT!!!!
Hints, tips, tricks, voodoo, moon dancing....whatever you think might help out
here in the desert!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks Amigo!
Gary
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Hey Gary, I'm definitely no Avocado expert but letme try to help. Do you have a picture of your tree? How is the health of your tree and what do you think is the reason your tree is not fliwering and fruiting? Is your tree grafted?
Simon
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Yes grafted, bought at Lowe's I believe, and went through a dry spell (meaning didn't get
enough water) late last year and is just now recovering....I know it looks pitiful....but lots
of little growth sprouts....
Oops - camera battery just went on the blink - let me re-charge it and post a bit later...
G
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Starch, I did a little research and found that it is true what you said about August. I marked it on my calendar even before you posted! People say you can find from the end of July to early October, but the shipment mostly comes in August. What %s of sand, garden soil, deodorized manure, citrus and cactus mix is your amendment mix?
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darkcoolboo, yeah Aug-Sep is the prime time. I can usually find them up to about mid-September. As for the mix, I would say roughly equal parts of the rest of that stuff. Basically the idea is to improve the drainage because as you know our soil here drains terribly. But I think what is giving them a good start right now is the vermicompost and manure that I have on top of the mound like I mention in reply #65.
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Well, spring is here, and it's time to put in good use the information i gathered in this topic. I have two Hass seed sprouting in my kitchen. But, i noticed, i don't know how graft avocadoes this young. Is there any specific guide or some tip people can share?
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Hey Pancrazio, I would wait for some growth of the avocado seedlings to harden before attempting to graft. For the scions, you want to make sure there are some buds on them. If there aren't any growth buds, you may try stripping off leaves from your doner tree to prep the scions. Make sure your grafts are very tightly bound, especially for the first couple weeks. You can use green plastic nursery tape to ensure tight bind and cambium contact and then remove the green tie tape leaving only the parafilm after 1-2 weeks. You don't want to bind so tightly that you girdle the plant but you have to ensure contact of the cambium.
Take note of when Avocado trees around your neck of the woods, if any, push new growth and graft around that time. Avoid taking scion material from blooming trees. Please let us know how it goes!
Simon
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Hey Pancrazio, I would wait for some growth of the avocado seedlings to harden before attempting to graft. For the scions, you want to make sure there are some buds on them. If there aren't any growth buds, you may try stripping off leaves from your doner tree to prep the scions. Make sure your grafts are very tightly bound, especially for the first couple weeks. You can use green plastic nursery tape to ensure tight bind and cambium contact and then remove the green tie tape leaving only the parafilm after 1-2 weeks. You don't want to bind so tightly that you girdle the plant but you have to ensure contact of the cambium.
Take note of when Avocado trees around your neck of the woods, if any, push new growth and graft around that time. Avoid taking scion material from blooming trees. Please let us know how it goes!
Simon
I haven't tried the green nursery tape. After I started tying the graft union with black stretchy electrical tape over the parafilm, my grafting success ratio went from about 10% to 80+%. I usually leave the electrical tape on for a month and then pull it off when I know its sealed. I have found some water retention under the electrical tape and a couple trees died from leaving the tape on too long.
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Hey Pancrazio, I would wait for some growth of the avocado seedlings to harden before attempting to graft. For the scions, you want to make sure there are some buds on them. If there aren't any growth buds, you may try stripping off leaves from your doner tree to prep the scions. Make sure your grafts are very tightly bound, especially for the first couple weeks. You can use green plastic nursery tape to ensure tight bind and cambium contact and then remove the green tie tape leaving only the parafilm after 1-2 weeks. You don't want to bind so tightly that you girdle the plant but you have to ensure contact of the cambium.
Take note of when Avocado trees around your neck of the woods, if any, push new growth and graft around that time. Avoid taking scion material from blooming trees. Please let us know how it goes!
Simon
Thank you for your suggestions!
When you talk about hardened growth on seedling, you talk about some "woody but still tender" growth or should I wait till the stem of the seedling is completely woody?
I didn't expect that avocados needed a so strong bounded graft point, I expected them to be more similar to the mangoes... the more you know!
I will keep you surely updated, i next few days i will search for some more seed because i want to have at my disposal 6-8 seedling at the very least. I've got to obtain a plant of mexicola and bacon before the end of this season.
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Hello Pancrazio,
By hardened growth I just mean that at least some of the new growth or newly forming leaves has reached full size and thickness. When the leaves are still growing I feel that much of the energy from photosynthesis in the new leaves is going into the new leaf and is thus not being stored for future use, ie, pushing growth of a grafted scion.
Let me reiterate that i am in no way a plant expert. I'm just going by personal experience or info I read off the net or pieced together. I did work with the Indonesian government sequencing fungal diseases in Oil Palm, namely Ganoderma but that in no way translates into gardening knowledge. I just hope people will have success planting avocado seeds directly in the ground and grafting those seedlings. Let us know how it goes!
Simon
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I do think that your suggestions make sense. And more so, since I have lost already 3 avocados, every suggestion from someone with problem similar to those of mine, is welcome. Plants sometimes behave in a little "magic" way (they are just to complex in their relationship with the environment to be predicted in a deterministic way). In that case using a trial-and-error and your intuition gives the best results!
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Simon,
I found this paper from the California Avocado Association (from 1919!) that talks about so many of the ideas that you have in your post. I think you will really enjoy it! - http://www.avocadosource.com/CAS_Yearbooks/CAS_05_1919/CAS_1919-20_PG_17-20.pdf (http://www.avocadosource.com/CAS_Yearbooks/CAS_05_1919/CAS_1919-20_PG_17-20.pdf) . The first three paragraphs are very good. And even if the seedling is started in a pot at a nursery instead of in the ground and then transferred to a pot later, the same issue of an underformed tap root still exists because it will be constrained by the size of the pot. I really did not understand that an avocado tree really wants a long deep tap root until you pointed it out and I started reading about it.
My seedling are still doing great outside. But the real test will be in about 3-4 months :)
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Hey Starch, thanks for sharing that article! I can't believe he said all those things that I've been thinking about but that was almost 100 years ago! I'm really glad I was not the only one that thought planting the seed directly in the location where you wanted the plant to grow was a good and viable option.
On a side note, several members have contacted me regarding doing this same practice of direct planting of Mango seeds and asked about my opinion. I visited Leo Manuel several months ago and told him about my issues with slow growth of my mango trees and he mentioned that many of his larger trees were seedlings that he planted many years ago. I believe direct planting of Mango seeds would be the best route for people growing Mango in marginal climates.
One member also asked me if I've ever tried multiple root stocking avocado but I have never done this on Avocado before.
Thanks again for the great read!
Simon
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Absolutely simon, glad you liked it!
On a side note, several members have contacted me regarding doing this same practice of direct planting of Mango seeds and asked about my opinion. I visited Leo Manuel several months ago and told him about my issues with slow growth of my mango trees and he mentioned that many of his larger trees were seedlings that he planted many years ago. I believe direct planting of Mango seeds would be the best route for people growing Mango in marginal climates.
That is another really good idea!
It seems like this approach will be great for a lot of subtropical trees that we love: avocado, mango, sapotes, cherimoya, atemoya, longan, lychee, etc. Anything that can make a strong and viable seedling, but won't necessarily produce good fruit from the seedling. Then we wait a year and do a graft from scions and have a much stronger site appropriate tree.
I am thinking very strongly about this approach now. The advantages are very compelling that you brought up in the original post (seedling/rootstock born into the environment that it will grow in, compatibility to soil biology, likely increased tolerance to non-optimal soil and water pH because it grew up that way, non-disturbed root system, able to handle seasonal stress better, etc.). One might point out that the disadvantage would be that this requires a lot more planning (which is true, can't argue with that) and will put you a few years behind in fruit production from a nursery-bought tree. And while that is likely true for initial fruit production, it seems likely to me that there is a cross-over point (say in years 3 or 4) where the native rootstock/site-grafted tree will outproduce a nursery rootstock/grafted tree because it is more established and able to send more energy up through the graft.
This point may not make much of a difference in more ideal growing environment for that cultivar, but for someone like me (who lives in the desert) it might make a huge difference in the long run. As you point out above: the best route for people growing in marginal climates.
Thanks!
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Good solid advice in that PDF article!
Take note of when Avocado trees around your neck of the woods, if any, push new growth and graft around that time. Avoid taking scion material from blooming trees.
Simon
Being that my Gwen was blooming heavy I asked Carlos, our master grafter, that question, "what if the tree is blooming, doesn't that interfere with the process?" He said "no", it doesn't matter. I took Gwen wood, a bud from a node site, without any blossoms on it though in that area. It is and was blooming very heavy.
Regarding the article......I'm glad my trees can't read. :D I planted Florida pits in the fall of 2011 bought at the grocery store (Guat. X WI) and grafted Gwen, Reed, and Sharwil scions in February 2012 using either cleft or veneer grafts, both the seedlings and scion were pretty skinny, and now have very vigorous trees that are fruiting. The Reed has had at least 4 "haircuts". Here is the newly grafted Reed in May 2012. That would put the pit seedling about 7 - 8 months old. That's a pretty radical veneer graft/cut but it worked. I can't even find the point where I grafted now.
(http://s9.postimg.cc/79swbajsr/Reed_Veneer_Graft5_6_12send.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/79swbajsr/)
I have a few veneer grafts of Edranol and Holiday on one very vigorous Waldin and to cut down on failures due to rot I foliar applied broad spectrum systemic fungicides to both the rootstock and the Gwen tree at least 2 weeks prior to doing the dirty deed. Just an experiment to see if this treatment increases my chance of success. Also, I was very meticulous regarding sanitation. All tools were sanitized with alcohol before using. My cuts were far from perfect with a few bumps requiring me to go back and do some shaving with a Schick razor blade.
It's been a 2 weeks since doing the veneer grafts, a month on a T-budded Gwen. Scions are still green. After a very cold and long winter the weather has finally warmed up.
(http://s2.postimg.cc/5m1purt39/Grafts.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/5m1purt39/)
(http://s3.postimg.cc/6eo7iljwf/Gwen_Graft2_21_15.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/6eo7iljwf/)
I'm a nervous wreck waiting for something to push. :o Wish me luck!
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Back to the points brought in the article....no question about it, trees with deep taproots like pecan and oaks MAY do better if you plant the acorn or nut in it's permanent location. What the article leaves out is the skill of the gardener - his understanding of plant processes, culture, and soil structure. I have a heavy clay loam soil but I know how to handle it. I put in 60 trees (fruit, nut, shade) around my custom built house and in less than 10 years they have grown from potted seedlings the size of a pencil to massive 25 footers (8 meters tall) with trunk girths of 10" +.
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Mark,
Awesome man! Good luck, I hope those grafts take! And congrats on that Reed graft! That is the tree that I most want in my yard. I have to say, I am psyched up to do some grafting on my avocado seedlings in the winter!
Back to the points brought in the article....no question about it, trees with deep taproots like pecan and oaks MAY do better if you plant the acorn or nut in it's permanent location. What the article leaves out is the skill of the gardener - his understanding of plant processes, culture, and soil structure. I have a heavy clay loam soil but I know how to handle it. I put in 60 trees (fruit, nut, shade) around my custom built house and in less than 10 years they have grown from potted seedlings the size of a pencil to massive 25 footers (8 meters tall) with trunk girths of 10" +.
Those are excellent points. Knowing your site and soil makes a huge difference. My is very heavy desert soil, with some clay, but very high pH and salt content. There are some trees that I can stick in the ground and do almost nothing (pomegranate) or minimal amendments (citrus) but then I have a couple of holes in the yard that have amendments in them to drainage improvement (plum and persimmon) and then I have a mound with a lot of amendments with good underneath drainage (peaches and avocados). And knowing the right places to put them for shade and sun. I agree, you have to let your land talk to you.
Congrats on all those mature trees grown from seedlings, that must be very satisfying!
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Thanks Starch, and the best to you. Our soils are the same as yours. Just a point because we (or at least me) have beat this horse to death but here's my advice, NEVER amend heavy clay soils with any compost. Always return the native soil back to the hole. Maybe a little sulfur to chemically change the lime to gypsum, but never any organics or sand. The good doctor has 3 parts to Soil Amendments - http://puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda%20chalker-scott/horticultural%20myths_files/Myths/Amendments.pdf (http://puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda%20chalker-scott/horticultural%20myths_files/Myths/Amendments.pdf)
For the record, my trees are in a greenhouse. I'll plant a cold hardy Joey outdoors as soon as I can get around to it. Said to take temps below 10F.
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Thanks Mark!
And thanks for that link, I have read some of her papers before, but I have not read that one yet. I do understand what she is saying in the paper. My approach with my persimmon and plum holes was contrary to her advice. I did do a much higher percentage of amendments than she recommends, but as I was doing it I thought about the 'bathtub' effect and fact that I would get settling over the years. So I formed a small mound so that the crown was 3" above the native soil level. This would give me some margin for settling. And I actually want a bathtub in the soil. These trees are somewhat close to obstructions in the yard and I am keeping them to about 6 feet. I am planning to do so by pruning, but I figured constraining the roots (essentially putting them in a 'pot' in the ground) would also help me to achieve that goal.
Regarding the Joey avocado: Please let me know if you put one in and how it does! I frost protect my mango trees and will have to do the same with a Reed avocado (after I graft one :) ), but I did look into some of the much more cold tolerant avocados (like Joey, Stewart, Fantastic) and I can see the appeal of not needing to deal with frost protection.
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I'd go with a sport of Reed, Holiday, because it's smaller and apparently of the same high quality. My Reed is very vigorous but oh that fruit! And all of the Tex-Mex varieties would work and Mexicola if you have cold weather. Talked to a a fella about Mexicola, said it went thru single digit temps. I'm picky about such pure Mex. varieties. Life's too short to be fighting a fruit where the seed is huge, the meat sticks to the seed or it's a bear to peel. One reason why I cut off my Brogdon and just grafted to the Waldin it was on. However, I've never heard one bad thing about the quality of the Mexicola except some don't like the large seed. Have read negative comments about the Mexicola Grande. Rumor has it the fruit is of inferior quality.
If you have any kind of drainage in your native soil then you might get away with amending it. I can't. When I dig I end up creating an in ground pot with glazed clay sides. I drug a 2' subsoiler behind my tractor on most to fracture the soil and if not then I use a small pickax to fracture the sides and bottom for roots to penetrate. It works really well.
Sharwil is loaded with blossoms. Unlike last year when I left only one fruit on, I think this guy is ready to support quite a bit of fruit. Beautiful tree with huge, glossy leaves. Fruit is excellent.
(http://s22.postimg.cc/xna9lawt9/Sharwil_Fruit2014.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/xna9lawt9/)
(http://s9.postimg.cc/c4puuoh8b/Sharwil_in_March.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/c4puuoh8b/)
Like I said, you can't see the graft on the Reed. Regarding the grafting knife it was recommended by Carlos. Excel #2 medium with Schick injector blade.
(http://s10.postimg.cc/b8nzr7mj9/Reed_graft_March.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/b8nzr7mj9/)
Current Sharwil graft:
(http://s21.postimg.cc/yykoqx9wj/Sharwil_graft_March.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/yykoqx9wj/)
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I have not tried a Holiday yet, but I hear nothing but good things. But I just love Reeds so much. The only avocado that I have liked the taste of better is a Nabal (which is a parent or grandparent of the original Reed seedling it has been said). So much oil and flavor, even more intense. But I did not like the texture as much as the Reed, which is like velvet.
I would be very interested in trying a Mexicola. I have had a Topa Topa before which sounds like it is very similar (small avocado, high oil content, huge seed, dark purple skin). The seed to flesh was so big that a 3" diameter avocado only had a flesh thickness of about 1/4". But the flavor was excellent, very different. And the skin was so thin, I just ate it skin and all. I can't say it was my favorite, but different and a lot of fun to eat.
That Sharwil is gorgeous! And the base of the Reed is extremely healthy looking. You have got some beautiful trees man!
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I read the article posted "Things we have learned".
While I cannot argue against planting root stock in the field to get a better tap root, I have found that the concept of a nursery has its own merits. The nursery has many likenesses of an educational school, the nursery serves as a place of growth training, shade providing, wind break, watering, weeding, selection, feeding. The nursery can be used for 6 months to a year or more, where it would be tremendous amount more work to move around in a field. The nursery also provides a jump start on plant growth when swapping in and out trees (for field replacement) or for relocation reasons (such as someone moving).
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This place needs a <LIKE> button!
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Mexicola seems a great variety for those in marginal climates. I'm assuming that we don't hear about it more often on this forum because most people here aren't in a marginal climate.
However I'm in this topic because I failed two transplantation attempt of Mexicola plants in my soil. I have a relatively heavy loam soil.
I'm still interested in modes and times you people have used to graft your seedling.
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Mexicola seems a great variety for those in marginal climates. I'm assuming that we don't hear about it more often on this forum because most people here aren't in a marginal climate.
However I'm in this topic because I failed two transplantation attempt of Mexicola plants in my soil. I have a relatively heavy loam soil.
I'm still interested in modes and times you people have used to graft your seedling.
The golden rule Pancracio is: when bud wood and root stock are active. You line those two up and you have success.
On the mexicola may be because is not a great tasting avocado most wind up changing canopy on them. There are better cold hardy varieties now. I have some under review now. Like Poncho, Joey, Daisy.......
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Stewart aka Stuart is another cold hardy Mexican avocado that folks rave about.
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The golden rule Pancracio is: when bud wood and root stock are active.
Sort of mangoes.
But I wonder, if I don't happen to have them both pushing, what is better to have active? Scion or rootstock?
I see in USA many clones have been developed of cold hardy avocados... this can explain very well why mexicola isn't more famous.
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Since avocado starts up again in the fall for Reeds in CA, there are ways to prep for trees now. Here are some ideas:
Dig a small depression in the ground, and test for draining.
Then dig up the hole deeply, not widely for the taproot.
Mix 5-15% inoculated with mycorrhizae and Organic Gem fish emulsion.
Back fill the hole, leaving a small hole at the top for pure inoculated worm castings to fill with (let some worms in too).
Cover with pine needles and shade.
With the pot, choose a tall, skinny pot (like the ones for $14 citrus from Laverne nursery) so that the tap root is undisturbed.
Fill with same soil mix as the hole. Seed 3 seeds in the hole and let grow for 1 year, or until the canopy is 3/4 as tall as the pot, or last date of frost is gone
Be sure to shade.
In this way, we don't have to amend the soil as much. Any other suggestions?
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Pancracio If I don't have both I rather have the bud wood. I can always force the root stock. Actually you can also force the bud wood if you have it and can control it. I talk about that in one of my videos.
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I have Sharwil and Gwen blooming, both carry opposite flower types no matter what time of the day or week and both are solid with blossoms that pollinators are working on. I know it's a real crap shoot regarding growing out seedlings, but, knowing the fine qualities of both of those varieties, the tidy tree profile, etc. I can't think of a better "match made in heaven" than the progeny of those two. I think I'll save the seeds knowing that the progeny will be from GwenXSharwil only.
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Nice looking grafts Mark, is anyone purposefully grafting A and B type flower varieties onto your trees in hopes of getting heavier fruit set?
I planted a few mango and Lychee seeds directly into the ground last year and plan on cleft grafting the mango this year and I will probably innarch the Lychee next year. I'm really glad there seems to be lots of interest in direct planting seeds and grafting over the seedling. I hope everyone can post their success stories along with your failures so that we can all learn together.
Simon
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I'm the grafter and it's only for personal consumption. Currently Shawil and Gwen are flowering. Oro Negro and Reed will be next.
Best of luck with those lychee and mango!
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For someone who wants to copy this in a pot why not get a 7 gallon pot, line it with one large piece of nylon window screening so you can lift the contents out in one piece. Then plant the seed in it. This way the seedling gets lots of room to send down a tap root. One year later plant this in your yard.
How about using a five gallon bucket for more depth. Plant it in potting soil about 75% full, should do the trick. Line it with windows screening first. Think the depth and width would be ideal for the taproot. You could use all native soil ///////or///////// half potting mix and half native soil from your backyard. In the 5-gal bucket for one year then plant it. Graft while in the bucket or after planting
Plant five buckets this way in case of grafting failure and to delay and think about the final place to plant the avocado seedling.
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Plenty of water here in Hawaii waipio. We love avocados...over the years planted many types..even some that were grafted to wet tolerant rootstock. Floods come ever year....all avocado trees died, except the volunteer seedling that sprouted on a 3ft-4 high rock wall. It's now into its 4th year of production...they are huge and tasty getting better every year...too bad it's so close to our house it has to be pruned every year.
I wonder if its a wet flood tolerant type or just 3-4ft up makes a huge difference.
Just a bit up from saturation zone and the avocado is happy
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I have used Stuewe treepots for oaks which have a long taproot. They work great except for keeping them upright in the wind. Some are quite tall and skinny. https://www.stuewe.com/products/treepots.php (https://www.stuewe.com/products/treepots.php)
Waipio Valley, wow! I can't imagine growing any kinds of trees there unless they're on the ridges, the inclines. Might want to try Waldin rootstock. It's W. Indies and can stand being wet for some time. Beautiful area BTW. You are blessed.
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I have used Stuewe treepots for oaks which have a long taproot. They work great except for keeping them upright in the wind. Some are quite tall and skinny. https://www.stuewe.com/products/treepots.php (https://www.stuewe.com/products/treepots.php)
The rap is that the avocado tap root (and roots) needs maximum wide as well as deep and ASAP thus why the original poster planted seeds directly (grafting later) where he wanted his avocado tree. Your treepots are only deep. Saw such treepots that mulberries saplings came in
zzzzzzzzzzzzz
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I cheated. I sprayed Griffin's Spin-Out on the inside walls and bottom for my oaks.
When it comes to cados, I think wide is more important than a tap root whose only function is to anchor. No matter the plant material, cuttings aka asexual clones do just fine without the typical taproot you get if they were a seedling.
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I cheated. I sprayed Griffin's Spin-Out on the inside walls and bottom for my oaks.
When it comes to cados, I think wide is more important than a tap root whose only function is to anchor. No matter the plant material, cuttings aka asexual clones do just fine without the typical taproot you get if they were a seedling.
Looks like we have the marijuana growers and potheads to thank for most of these new products. Same as the move to develop larger and better hard drives was stimulated by the online porn industry if you can call it an industry.
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Pot growers are big into snake oils like Advanced Nutrients. Griffin's Spin-Out, copper hydroxide paints, have been used by the forestry industry for decades.
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There are a few services out there that will ship you CA avocados. The one that I use is Avocado Diva (http://www.avocadodiva.com/ (http://www.avocadodiva.com/)). She basically drives up and down the coast to small ranches between San Diego and LA and with her crew picks them fresh off the tree and ships them that week. We get our avocados and they typically ripen 7-10 days after we receive them. Because they are small ranches they have lots of different trees so we get to experience the full range of the CA avocado seasons. For someone like me who is a major avocado lover and doesn't live anywhere near avocado country, it is a really awesome service. I have been absolutely happy with it.
Read in the newspaper today that August 31, 2015 is the semifinal day of business for Avocado Diva.
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Been ordering from these folks for years. Best quality and cheapest prices shipped, much cheaper than Avocado Diva. https://www.morrocreekranch.com/content.php?content_id=1 (https://www.morrocreekranch.com/content.php?content_id=1) If any one knows of some fair priced Reed for sale I'd sure like some. Aint paying $8.00 a piece!
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this is a jackfruit
im posting cos of the container
a kitchen waste basket. $6 Wall-Mart
i put holes in the side with a knife to prevent the roots from circling.
it seems to work. ive been doing this for years now.
(http://s18.postimg.cc/ivraf5cud/jak.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/ivraf5cud/)
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There are a few services out there that will ship you CA avocados. The one that I use is Avocado Diva (http://www.avocadodiva.com/ (http://www.avocadodiva.com/)). She basically drives up and down the coast to small ranches between San Diego and LA and with her crew picks them fresh off the tree and ships them that week. We get our avocados and they typically ripen 7-10 days after we receive them. Because they are small ranches they have lots of different trees so we get to experience the full range of the CA avocado seasons. For someone like me who is a major avocado lover and doesn't live anywhere near avocado country, it is a really awesome service. I have been absolutely happy with it.
Read in the newspaper today that August 31, 2015 is the semifinal day of business for Avocado Diva.
I know, I am so sad she is going out of business. I have been ordering for years. I have been able to eat some of the best avocados that CA has to offer. I was on the ultimate club, which meant I got a 2 shipments a month for $50/month and each shipment had on average a dozen avocados. So that is roughly $2 per avocado for some of the most premium quality fruits you could find ( Nabal, Reed, Pinkterton, Fuerte, Nobel, Sir Prize, Marvel, Lamb, Gem, MacArthur, etc.). I am really bummed.
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There are a few services out there that will ship you CA avocados. The one that I use is Avocado Diva (http://www.avocadodiva.com/ (http://www.avocadodiva.com/)). She basically drives up and down the coast to small ranches between San Diego and LA and with her crew picks them fresh off the tree and ships them that week. We get our avocados and they typically ripen 7-10 days after we receive them. Because they are small ranches they have lots of different trees so we get to experience the full range of the CA avocado seasons. For someone like me who is a major avocado lover and doesn't live anywhere near avocado country, it is a really awesome service. I have been absolutely happy with it.
Read in the newspaper today that August 31, 2015 is the semifinal day of business for Avocado Diva.
I know, I am so sad she is going out of business. I have been ordering for years. I have been able to eat some of the best avocados that CA has to offer. I was on the ultimate club, which meant I got a 2 shipments a month for $50/month and each shipment had on average a dozen avocados. So that is roughly $2 per avocado for some of the most premium quality fruits you could find ( Nabal, Reed, Pinkterton, Fuerte, Nobel, Sir Prize, Marvel, Lamb, Gem, MacArthur, etc.). I am really bummed.
$2, was that the shipped price? With an unknown I do fine until I hit the Checkout and find out that shipping is another $25. Would love to get some Gwen or Reed from Will Brokaw but he refuses to use USPS flat rate which would cut his shipping costs by 2/3.
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There are a few services out there that will ship you CA avocados. The one that I use is Avocado Diva (http://www.avocadodiva.com/ (http://www.avocadodiva.com/)). She basically drives up and down the coast to small ranches between San Diego and LA and with her crew picks them fresh off the tree and ships them that week. We get our avocados and they typically ripen 7-10 days after we receive them. Because they are small ranches they have lots of different trees so we get to experience the full range of the CA avocado seasons. For someone like me who is a major avocado lover and doesn't live anywhere near avocado country, it is a really awesome service. I have been absolutely happy with it.
Read in the newspaper today that August 31, 2015 is the semifinal day of business for Avocado Diva.
I know, I am so sad she is going out of business. I have been ordering for years. I have been able to eat some of the best avocados that CA has to offer. I was on the ultimate club, which meant I got a 2 shipments a month for $50/month and each shipment had on average a dozen avocados. So that is roughly $2 per avocado for some of the most premium quality fruits you could find ( Nabal, Reed, Pinkterton, Fuerte, Nobel, Sir Prize, Marvel, Lamb, Gem, MacArthur, etc.). I am really bummed.
$2, was that the shipped price? With an unknown I do fine until I hit the Checkout and find out that shipping is another $25. Would love to get some Gwen or Reed from Will Brokaw but he refuses to use USPS flat rate which would cut his shipping costs by 2/3.
Yes! That is why I am so sad. That Ultimate Club from Avocado Diva was the best avocado deal out there.
My Whole Foods does carry Reeds but they are now out. I picked up a half dozen a couple of weeks ago. Reeds are my favorite. But now it looks like my only choice will be Mexican Hass for the next several months :( . Not the worst but certainly not the best. I have been so spoiled. I won't be getting my winter/spring Fuertes and Pinkertons. Ah well.
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Yes! That is why I am so sad. That Ultimate Club from Avocado Diva was the best avocado deal out there.
My Whole Foods does carry Reeds but they are now out. I picked up a half dozen a couple of weeks ago. Reeds are my favorite. But now it looks like my only choice will be Mexican Hass for the next several months :( . Not the worst but certainly not the best. I have been so spoiled. I won't be getting my winter/spring Fuertes and Pinkertons. Ah well.
$2 shipped is a great deal if they're 8 oz or better. Our local grocer, HEB, sells hen sized Mexican Hass for $0.68. Can't wait to harvest my own premium fruit. My Reed, Gwen, Oro Negro and Sharwil are bearing pretty well for being small trees. I'm surprised at the Sharwil. It seems to love the heat and for a 3 X 5' tree is bearing pretty heavy.
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I am guilty of killing several avacados. Here in florida I finally realized it was my well water. I now only use rainwater and what a difference! I told my brother this year and he experimented with two trees. One well water and one rainwater. It's like night and day. The rainwater tree is darker green and constantly flushing. The well water tree has got burnt tips of leaves and light green leaves. The rainwater tree is growing much faster. Last year I had a lila that was doing horrible. I got it from a friend who grafted it and I saw how well his other trees were doing. I started only giving it well water and it completely transformed into a healthy tree It flushed out the burnt leaves and started thriving. Then last winter we were 30F for 3 hours and it died. I can't win! In the past 3 years I figured out light fertilizer, slow release is best, rainwater and also when the tree is small and not bushy the tree does better in shade or partial sun. If the trunk is exposed to hot sun it will perform poorly. And last protect small trees from any temperature below 32F. I learn slow but I learn
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Anyone here in California have experience with direct seeding Avocados in the Fall? How long do the seedlings take to germinate and how fast do they grow?
The temperatures where I'm planting them are in the 70s to 80s during the day and in the mid 50s at night. I assume that'll be warm enough for them to germinate, but with Fall quickly descending on us the highs will soon be in the 60s.
I've direct seeded them during the summer and they germinate fine in a few weeks, but I've never tried the Fall.
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Ok, so I've completely ignored my Reed and Holiday trees since buying them from La Verne (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=17769.msg223853#msg223853) back in October. They've been sitting in their pots since then, and they've dropped all their leaves. :(
I thought they were dead, but with the recent Los Angeles heat wave and some water, they're pushing new leaves right now:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3552590/Avocado1PushingLeavesAfterDrop.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3552590/Avocado2PushingLeavesAfterDrop.jpg)
I've been told to put potted trees in the ground "as soon as possible," but given that winter isn't quite over, and these trees are in a tender state, should I wait?
Or should I just get them in the ground ASAP?
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ASAP-Waterbug you might want to put up shade cloth on south side until they get settled in! No worry of cold in Palo Verdes !
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Has anyone else had success using this method of direct seeding avocado seeds and grafting onto the seedling? I just visited my friend and his tree is doing great. He has also grafted a couple other varieties onto the Reed seedling right next to the Hass I grafted for him.
Simon
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I have a reed, jan boyce and mexicola grafted onto directly sown seedlings, but its too early to say whether they'll do better than store bought hass and fuerte presumably on Zutano seedlings and obviously not sown directly.
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Thanks for the update Shane! This technique is really more for those that have tried but for one reason or another cant grow the nursery purchased avocado plants. For better performance, careful selection of rootstock is very important. I believe there was a thread regarding avocado rootstocks but I can't remember the title of the thread.
For added vigor and production, perhaps try a couple trees on multiple rootstocks of different varieties selected for different disease resistance or adaptability to different soil conditions.
Simon
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Has anyone else had success using this method of direct seeding avocado seeds and grafting onto the seedling? I just visited my friend and his tree is doing great. He has also grafted a couple other varieties onto the Reed seedling right next to the Hass I grafted for him.
Simon
I will have much more to report on this in about 9-12 months. Following your advice, I've planted several dozen spots across 7 locations around the bay area (specifically in the east bay) using this direct-seeded approach. The seedlings are all young, but many are doing well so far. I'll probably be grafting them in February.
I didn't limit it to Avocado -- I've planted White Sapote and Mango this way as well. Actually, White Sapote seems to like it even more than Avocado, given how sensitive its roots are. Two of the direct seeded Mango seedlings I planted last summer are still alive and doing okay, and I haven't watered them since October.
This is a great technique Simon, and I'm hoping the Avocados I've planted this way do as well as the ones you've grown.
One minor note -- it seems that a vigorous, large Avocado seed is the best choice for this approach. Given the hard clay soils we seem to have here, it looks like smaller-seeded varieties have a hard time. I only had a few -- some Duke seeds -- and direct seeded those. They're growing, but they took something like 6 months to germinate and are growing very slowly. (They are healthy, though.)
I recently planted a couple of Reed seeds -- I figure they're large and might grow fast.
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Has anyone else had success using this method of direct seeding avocado seeds and grafting onto the seedling? I just visited my friend and his tree is doing great. He has also grafted a couple other varieties onto the Reed seedling right next to the Hass I grafted for him.
Hi!
I have always wanted an avocado in my home, so after 3 dead trees i have been looking forward to apply this method to get finally the plants I want. Last year I managed to seed two avocados in place. I guess they were pinkerton seeds (grocery store). I was hoping to have them grafted with a couple of cultivars: one of them was Mexicola and the other one is a chance seedling a friend of mine grew that was able to withstand pretty extreme cold snaps (-8/-10C or 14/17F) and of decent quality.
At the end of last summer i was able to graft only this variety on the seedling i planted... but too bad, after initial the initial attempt to push (graft was healed) the winter came, and the union point died back during winter (is a common problem for me, i think because if grafts joins too late in winter callous tissue can't differentiate in mature enough wood before winter comes.... and winter for me is pretty cold/damp).
So, this year started again with two seeds, but i didn't plant them directly in ground - in fact I’m ashamed to admit that grafting low in the stem young avocados that were already situated in a hole in the ground has been remarkably difficult for me. So i prepared a couple of pretty long pots, filled them with the soil taken from the exact space I’m going to plant the avocados (it is pretty rich in clay, actually) and i have grown the seedling there. I think that they will be ready to accept graft in a couple of week.
I have just a major setback in the fact that i'm unable to locate a source of Mexicola avocadoes in europe, but as far asthe other avocado is concerned, i should be able to get at least a plant.
I hope to be able to obtain, using the same soil of the desired location and the pot growing, bot the advantages of this method and the easiness for grafts of the pot grown plants.
Too bad avocado seeds are really slow to sprout, the two plants i'm about to graft are from fruits i used in january.
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Simon, I'm curious at what stage / size / time you've had the best luck grafting your direct-seeded Avocados. I have ~50 of them in the ground now and they're various sizes -- between 2 inch sprouts and 2 foot vigorous seedlings. Here in the East Bay I've had the best luck grafting Avocados in February, but that's on mature in-ground trees rather than seedlings.
Thanks!
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Hey Barath, I have not grafted many Avocado plants. Besides the plant I grafted for my friend, I have only grafted Avocado a handful of other times. I don't recall the exact season I grafted my friends seedling but I think it was around late Spring or early Summer. I remember the seedling was about sharpie thickness and about 3 feet tall.
I would wait until your seedling is well established and just starting to push new growth.
Simon
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Simon, I'm curious at what stage / size / time you've had the best luck grafting your direct-seeded Avocados. I have ~50 of them in the ground now and they're various sizes -- between 2 inch sprouts and 2 foot vigorous seedlings. Here in the East Bay I've had the best luck grafting Avocados in February, but that's on mature in-ground trees rather than seedlings.
Thanks!
It's a very good question, I have some 2 to 3 year old direct seeded avocado trees and was looking at the same question. I have read in an old publication that I cannot find back, that the old groves in California were originally established by direct seeding and grafting. Only later they started grafting in the nursery and planting out those trees, and if I remember correctly it was a trade-off between the grafts taking much better in nursery conditions and the rootsystems getting much better established from direct seeds.
So I guess the time of grafting is pretty critical. The tree must be in a growth flush, there must be enough water in the soil to keep it growing for another couple of weeks, and you must be able to protect the graft from drying out or overheating in the sun. Maybe now that we have parafilm, which the oldtimers didn't have, we have the ability to do that and we can get a higher percentage of takes on direct seeded rootstock. But I would wait for springtime, unless you can irrigate.
Solko
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Great, thanks! I will try a few different times for grafting them then. I think I'm also going to try using rooting hormone in the grafts to see if I can get them to take even not during the exact right season.
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I've had excellent success grafting to Florida pits. I find that timing is critical - the spring scion wood should be showing buds that are beginning to swell and the rootstock should either be pushing new spring growth or very close to it. Some folks graft in the fall. I guess if that's the only time you can get scions then you have no choice. It's active growth timing for me.
I cut a Brogdon down to its Waldin rootstock and grafted 6 scions, 4 varieties last spring - Holiday, Pinkerton, Ardith, Sir Prize. All took for my new Frankencado. Here it is a few months ago, its a vigorous larger tree now. I expect a crop next year.
(https://s17.postimg.cc/63cbv0mfv/Frankencado_Aug21.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/63cbv0mfv/)
Tips:
1. I believe a very clean cut which results in little to no tissue damage like crushing of the tissue cells results in MUCH better success rates. Accordingly I always use what Carlos turned me onto - a Schick disposable razor blade held in an Excel #2 medium blade holder. I no longer use my grafting knife, no matter how sharp it is.
2. Buddy tape - I got nothing but failures on 3 attempts using parafilm in 2015, same rootstock. I've had 100% success switching over to Buddy Tape.
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I tried to google your no. 1 tip items above with no luck, could you please share the links or where to get them?
Thanks again, Mark!
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Google links - https://www.walgreens.com/store/c/schick-injector-razor-blades/ID=prod2163368-product (https://www.walgreens.com/store/c/schick-injector-razor-blades/ID=prod2163368-product)
https://www.amazon.com/Excel-K2-Knife-Safety-Cap/dp/B0006NAU60 (https://www.amazon.com/Excel-K2-Knife-Safety-Cap/dp/B0006NAU60)
Insert and tighten the blade inserted half way in. When not razor sharp anymore, reverse the blade. Best thing since ice cream.......
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Thanks a lot for those links and advice, Mark!
Much appreciated!
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Thank u for sharing, simon.
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(https://s12.postimg.cc/vbnidvdnd/20170525_195817.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/vbnidvdnd/)
Just planted lamb hass & sir prize in-ground in 1hole. :)
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Nice trees, make sure to protect them if we get ultra high heat. The double planting should help to keep their size in check. Please keep us updated on these two!
Simon
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Interesting thread--thanks, all, for sharing your expertise. With regard to grafting avocados, I've had good success grafting onto very young seedlings--occasionally even before leaves have opened. My guess is that this channels the energy stored in the seed into healing the graft and pushing new growth. I usually don't graft when they're quite this young, but here's a good before (Feb 22) and after (April 10) illustration:
(https://s8.postimg.cc/zcen4p7zl/2017-02-22_Brazos_Belle_graft_9627_crp_rdc.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/zcen4p7zl/)
(https://s8.postimg.cc/3tyjo13n5/2017-04-10_Brazos_Belle_graft_5506_rdc.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3tyjo13n5/)
I've also started planting an avocado seed next to any newly-planted avocado tree, as a backup. When the seedling is big enough, I graft on a scion from the adjacent plant with the idea of keeping whichever one does best.
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Great looking graft Tusconken! Thanks for sharing your technique. I've had great success with epicotyl grafts on mango and it looks like it may work equally as well on Avocado. I like your idea of planting a seedling next to newly planted Avocado trees as a backup and keeping the one that performs the best. Thanks for sharing your technique!
Simon
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Interesting thread--thanks, all, for sharing your expertise. With regard to grafting avocados, I've had good success grafting onto very young seedlings--occasionally even before leaves have opened. My guess is that this channels the energy stored in the seed into healing the graft and pushing new growth. I usually don't graft when they're quite this young, but here's a good before (Feb 22) and after (April 10) illustration:
(https://s8.postimg.cc/zcen4p7zl/2017-02-22_Brazos_Belle_graft_9627_crp_rdc.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/zcen4p7zl/)
(https://s8.postimg.cc/3tyjo13n5/2017-04-10_Brazos_Belle_graft_5506_rdc.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3tyjo13n5/)
I've also started planting an avocado seed next to any newly-planted avocado tree, as a backup. When the seedling is big enough, I graft on a scion from the adjacent plant with the idea of keeping whichever one does best.
Good plan!
Did the same thing back in 2012. Planted Florida pits in early winter and grafted about 6 scions sourced from the U.C.R. collection late Feb. All took and are bearing well.
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Here's an update of my friends tree that started this thread. We are keeping it low and bushy for easier harvesting. There are over 100 Avocados on it this year. This tree is also grafted with Reed and a Reed seedling is also growing next to it.
(https://s11.postimg.cc/r7ivmkonj/IMG_2625.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/r7ivmkonj/)
(https://s11.postimg.cc/gyqegr0lr/IMG_2629.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/gyqegr0lr/)
(https://s11.postimg.cc/xb0g6hexb/IMG_2630.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/xb0g6hexb/)
Simon
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for the reed did you need to do any size control? I just bought a reed from la verne and it's the first tree that for me I didn't need to do anything to it. It was a lil over two feet tall and had really nice branching to it. Do you suggesting tipping to induce more branching?
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I'm definitely no Avocado expert but I do know that Reeds are columnar and grow vertical and doesn't bush out too much. I would still prune it to keep it low and bushy because I dislike using fruit picking poles to harvest fruit. I prefer to have fruit lower for easier harvesting.
We only Grafted a lower branch so our Reed shouldn't get to big. It's the Hass that we have to worry about.
Simon
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I'm definitely no Avocado expert but I do know that Reeds are columnar and grow vertical and doesn't bush out too much. I would still prune it to keep it low and bushy because....
Simon
Backfired on me, big time. I topped my Reed low and it turned into this wide football goal post profile with no center, like 15' W. I've tried to fill in the middle with a branch but the strong apical dominance influence of the horizontal side branches shuts it down.
Waldo (my wife) is in there....somewhere. :)
(https://s1.postimg.cc/71hqa261t7/Nancy_Reed.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/71hqa261t7/)
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This is a really interesting method. I'm going ot have to give it a try.
I have a part of my yard with some amended soil and almost full shade. Seedlings typically adjust better to Vegas conditions I've found, at least in terms of mangos that I've played with, so this will be a fun experiment to try.
I'm curious, which rootstock should I grow from seed would have the best soil salt tolerance?
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This is a really interesting method. I'm going ot have to give it a try.
I have a part of my yard with some amended soil and almost full shade. Seedlings typically adjust better to Vegas conditions I've found, at least in terms of mangos that I've played with, so this will be a fun experiment to try.
I'm curious, which rootstock should I grow from seed would have the best soil salt tolerance?
Waldin, pure W. Indies, Florida sources. I chose Florida pits because they usually are pure W. Indies or a hybrid of it by Guatemalan.
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This is a really interesting method. I'm going ot have to give it a try.
I have a part of my yard with some amended soil and almost full shade. Seedlings typically adjust better to Vegas conditions I've found, at least in terms of mangos that I've played with, so this will be a fun experiment to try.
I'm curious, which rootstock should I grow from seed would have the best soil salt tolerance?
Try several different types if you have access to seeds, some species or hybrids may have better resistance to root rot or salinity than others.
My friend and I are still enjoying the fruits of our labor. The original tree that started this thread is doing great. We topped it low so it’s growing wide and bushy like we wanted.
Simon
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Try several different types if you have access to seeds, some species or hybrids may have better resistance to root rot or salinity than others.
Every Reed seed I've planted has been a failure - no vigor. Just flat doesn't want to grow and I've planted those that have "tails" while in the fruit, cracked, ripe but no tail....nothing.
Best rootstock I've found sourced from greenhouse stock is Oro Negro. Gonna quit throwing away those seeds and sow them if not for me for some of my friends. Plan to graft a Pinkerton to it early next year.
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Ive got several reed seedlings going. They need a lot of heat to get started. They do take 6 to 8 weeks to pop up. Reed trees also seem to take super hot dry conditions no problem.
Most of the trees available in san diego nurseries are on polinator rootstock. Mostly zutano or bacon seeds are used for rootstocks here.
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Ive got several reed seedlings going. They need a lot of heat to get started. They do take 6 to 8 weeks to pop up. Reed trees also seem to take super hot dry conditions no problem.
Most of the trees available in san diego nurseries are on polinator rootstock. Mostly zutano or bacon seeds are used for rootstocks here.
Same here. I ate a bunch of Reeds in early Sept and planted them on my avocado mound. At least half of them have sprouted already.
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Ive got several reed seedlings going. They need a lot of heat to get started. They do take 6 to 8 weeks to pop up. Reed trees also seem to take super hot dry conditions no problem.
Most of the trees available in san diego nurseries are on polinator rootstock. Mostly zutano or bacon seeds are used for rootstocks here.
That's very good to know. If there's one thing Vegas never has a shortage of, its super hot and dry conditions.
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Is lambhass avocado?
I have 500 tree include 034, Lamhass, pinmetton,Gem
And i have to wait one year to harvest.
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I’ve had been contemplating (after hanging in my mind for over 2 plus years) to practice what Simon (and maybe others) preached on growing Avocado with this direct seed in the ground planting method, with no soil amendment added. (I hear you too, Mark!).
So, yesterday, after seeing that my Fuerte seeds in the moist bag showing some roots, I grabbed one and buried it in the ground.
(https://i.imgur.com/xp1dJo8m.jpg)
Now, lets see if I can find another spot somewhere in the yard so I can squeeze in another one…
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It’s ok to loosen the soil a bit to allow the roots push through compacted soil. Once you bury it with native soil, it is ok to put a top dress of Sulfur if the pH of your soil is too low but it’s probabl not required. Avocado also love to be mulched. Please keep us updated on how it grows for you.
I’ve had several people pm me about their success growing direct planted seedlings after failing with nursery trees.
Simon
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Yes, I will update this as it goes along. The idea of placing 2 seeds in "a hole" (to get smaller tree and saving yard space) is also got me interested, as well as trying to do the epicotyl grafting later on.
I appreciate your continuing effort to give valuable advice, Simon!
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Sounds like fun Sam! Am old fashion, I use the toothpick method, have about 20 going after loosing about 200 avocados which were immature. Couple have rooted. I make sure that there is a good size hole in the dirt or pot where I can slip the root radicle in and not damage it.
Good luck!
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I must have missed the answer to this somewhere. Why shouldnt you amend the soil when planting avocados?
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I must have missed the answer to this somewhere. Why shouldnt you amend the soil when planting avocados?
We're talking clay soils only. It creates a pot that holds water thereby drowning the tree. Roots get comfortable and will not explore the native soil because folks fail to take corrective action before planting. First they glaze the clay hole with a post hole digger or shovel and fail to fracture the sides and bottom. Only native soil used as backfill will seal that hole from the top and prevent it from becoming a non draining clay pot. The key is surface drainage whether that be a natural slope, raised bed, or mound.
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Ah gotcha. Thanks Mike.