The Tropical Fruit Forum
Citrus => Citrus General Discussion => Topic started by: Sylvain on January 05, 2019, 08:23:34 AM
-
In France, since January 1, 2019 pesticides (fungicides, insecticides, nematicides, acaricides, herbicides and other biocides of chemical origin) are prohibited from purchase, possession and use for private individuals.
-
Good first step, I was always amazed by idiots who are using roundup to remove weed from small parts of their front yard or backyard. But the worst are big farmers and companies.
I saw a documentary about deltas of big rivers in France, how is the soil heavely poisoned there, because all streams from agricultural areas are bringing poisons to main rivers. They said, that 90 percent of eels have cancer.
-
Sylvain, I bet the bugs, funguses, blights, bacteria, and especially the weeds are all happy by the decision of the French politicians.
-
Sylvain, I bet the bugs, funguses, blights, bacteria, and especially the weeds are all happy by the decision of the French politicians.
But cancer cells not... ;D I'm happy too!
-
A side note - Gardening Centers in France have noted an uptick in the sale of yellow vests.
-
In France yellow vest is obligatory to have in each car, they are sold in car shops, not in the garden centers ;D
-
> I bet the bugs, funguses, blights, bacteria, and especially the weeds are all happy by the decision of the French politicians.
Not at all. I don't use chemicals since several years and a new equilibrium set up very quickly.
To say the full truth I sometimes use horticole oil or dishwasher soap. For the weeds, I let them grow and control their expansion with the lawn mower. :)
This decision was not coming from French politicians. They have been forced against their will by the people.
Most of them think as you do.
-
> I bet the bugs, funguses, blights, bacteria, and especially the weeds are all happy by the decision of the French politicians.
Not at all. I don't use chemicals since several years and a new equilibrium set up very quickly.
To say the full truth I sometimes use horticole oil or dishwasher soap. For the weeds, I let them grow and control their expansion with the lawn mower. :)
This decision was not coming from French politicians. They have been forced against their will by the people.
Most of them think as you do.
May be it came from the people, but certainly was done by politicians that made this ban by annulation of the marketing authorization for all pesticides without discrimination.
Not only synthetic stuff was banned but some quite natural compounds like plant pyrethrins and to my biggest surprise- essential oil from the sweet orange.
-
Whatever the Government bands I like to buy more of.
I now purchase Round Up by the gallon in concentrate and use it regularly. Very effective. Also like Imidacloprid 2F for sucking insects.
Also love Oil based paints and plastic bags as well.
-
French medical mystery: At least 1,200 babies born with missing limbs, parents want answers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb4_gps8VWQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb4_gps8VWQ)
-
Soon Europe will make a law for everything. You will be dictated what to eat, how to walk and what you talk. It is getting worse than communism.
It's the rebirth of fascism in a hidden from. The state dictates and people must confirm. Slowly but surely European Union from a promoter of freedom starts to be a dictator. no wonder the Brexit and popular nationalism.
A good law would a allow the use of pesticides to those who understand the risks and are educated to use them.
France forgot the French revolution, perhaps should make a new one.
-
If you want to leave Europe go to England or any country out of Europe (you are not far from Turkey :D).
Never forget the joke "The world is full of foreigners".
If you want to stay in Europe but want to be free (to have children without arms) I can find for you the names of the two villages where it happens.
No rearly, let's be serious!
-
Hmm. I wonder how many of those who voted for this realize that produce actually manufactures its own pesticides. Look up Dr Ame's research. Here's a little teaser: https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/06/13/9999-pesticides-we-eat-are-produced-plants-themselves-11415 (https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/06/13/9999-pesticides-we-eat-are-produced-plants-themselves-11415)
Generally, extremist political standpoints like these are driven by the counter-swing of the pendulum, which is a natural pattern in normal human society. We went from the post-ww2 glee of manufactured food products and pesticides, both of which were the panacea for modern health issues -- to the modern day extremist viewpoint that all one need do is think about a pesticide to get cancer. Spoiler alert: the best approach is nearly always in between the two extremes.
This also raises the rhetorical question: Are commercial farmers, who are motivated by short term profit margins, more motivated than individual gardeners to properly use pesticides? Also, which segment of the population contributes more to pesticide pollution: commercial farmers with millions of acres of land and pesticide budgets in the millions of dollars, or the backyard gardener with a small plot of land, little time to care for it, and a pea sized budget?
I'm still waiting for California's prop 65 warning to show up on organic produce (again, see Dr Ame's research on this topic :-).
-
Hmm. I wonder how many of those who voted for this realize that produce actually manufactures its own pesticides. Look up Dr Ame's research. Here's a little teaser: https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/06/13/9999-pesticides-we-eat-are-produced-plants-themselves-11415 (https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/06/13/9999-pesticides-we-eat-are-produced-plants-themselves-11415)
Generally, extremist political standpoints like these are driven by the counter-swing of the pendulum, which is a natural pattern in normal human society. We went from the post-ww2 glee of manufactured food products and pesticides, both of which were the panacea for modern health issues -- to the modern day extremist viewpoint that all one need do is think about a pesticide to get cancer. Spoiler alert: the best approach is nearly always in between the two extremes.
This also raises the rhetorical question: Are commercial farmers, who are motivated by short term profit margins, more motivated than individual gardeners to properly use pesticides? Also, which segment of the population contributes more to pesticide pollution: commercial farmers with millions of acres of land and pesticide budgets in the millions of dollars, or the backyard gardener with a small plot of land, little time to care for it, and a pea sized budget?
I'm still waiting for California's prop 65 warning to show up on organic produce (again, see Dr Ame's research on this topic :-).
I guess, that this is just a first step. I have no doubts that pesticides and herbicides are dangerous, just look at the Vietnam, decades after the war and usage of agent Orange. Defective babies are born still. Martinique and Guadeloupe soil is affected by Chlordecone poisoning by the banana industry, even cows cannot eat the grass there.
The European Commission last year proposed extending the ban of three neonicotinoids—clothianidin, imidacloprid, and thiamethoxam as extremely harmful for bees populations.
-
In the USA, many pesticides are available for the use by the general public. However, their is also a category of pesticides called Restricted Use Pesticides (RUP). These RUP can only be obtained if the user has what is called a Restricted Use Pesticide license. Farmers, applicators, etc. obtain this license by passing a course on proper pesticide use, pesticide safety procedures, which pesticide can be used on which crop, reentry periods etc.. License holders have to be recertified every couple years. In my estimation this is a much better situation, than radically disallowing any use at all under any circumstances what so ever. Lastly to Cookie Monster, thank you for your link. it is an excellent link, I had no idea,
-
Wait, did we just compare Agent Orange to modern pesticides? Is that a valid comparison?
Hmm. I wonder how many of those who voted for this realize that produce actually manufactures its own pesticides. Look up Dr Ame's research. Here's a little teaser: https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/06/13/9999-pesticides-we-eat-are-produced-plants-themselves-11415 (https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/06/13/9999-pesticides-we-eat-are-produced-plants-themselves-11415)
Generally, extremist political standpoints like these are driven by the counter-swing of the pendulum, which is a natural pattern in normal human society. We went from the post-ww2 glee of manufactured food products and pesticides, both of which were the panacea for modern health issues -- to the modern day extremist viewpoint that all one need do is think about a pesticide to get cancer. Spoiler alert: the best approach is nearly always in between the two extremes.
This also raises the rhetorical question: Are commercial farmers, who are motivated by short term profit margins, more motivated than individual gardeners to properly use pesticides? Also, which segment of the population contributes more to pesticide pollution: commercial farmers with millions of acres of land and pesticide budgets in the millions of dollars, or the backyard gardener with a small plot of land, little time to care for it, and a pea sized budget?
I'm still waiting for California's prop 65 warning to show up on organic produce (again, see Dr Ame's research on this topic :-).
I guess, that this is just a first step. I have no doubts that pesticides and herbicides are dangerous, just look at the Vietnam, decades after the war and usage of agent Orange. Defective babies are born still. Martinique and Guadeloupe soil is affected by Chlordecone poisoning by the banana industry, even cows cannot eat the grass there.
The European Commission last year proposed extending the ban of three neonicotinoids—clothianidin, imidacloprid, and thiamethoxam as extremely harmful for bees populations.
-
Wait, did we just compare Agent Orange to modern pesticides? Is that a valid comparison?
Hmm. I wonder how many of those who voted for this realize that produce actually manufactures its own pesticides. Look up Dr Ame's research. Here's a little teaser: https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/06/13/9999-pesticides-we-eat-are-produced-plants-themselves-11415 (https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/06/13/9999-pesticides-we-eat-are-produced-plants-themselves-11415)
Generally, extremist political standpoints like these are driven by the counter-swing of the pendulum, which is a natural pattern in normal human society. We went from the post-ww2 glee of manufactured food products and pesticides, both of which were the panacea for modern health issues -- to the modern day extremist viewpoint that all one need do is think about a pesticide to get cancer. Spoiler alert: the best approach is nearly always in between the two extremes.
This also raises the rhetorical question: Are commercial farmers, who are motivated by short term profit margins, more motivated than individual gardeners to properly use pesticides? Also, which segment of the population contributes more to pesticide pollution: commercial farmers with millions of acres of land and pesticide budgets in the millions of dollars, or the backyard gardener with a small plot of land, little time to care for it, and a pea sized budget?
I'm still waiting for California's prop 65 warning to show up on organic produce (again, see Dr Ame's research on this topic :-).
I guess, that this is just a first step. I have no doubts that pesticides and herbicides are dangerous, just look at the Vietnam, decades after the war and usage of agent Orange. Defective babies are born still. Martinique and Guadeloupe soil is affected by Chlordecone poisoning by the banana industry, even cows cannot eat the grass there.
The European Commission last year proposed extending the ban of three neonicotinoids—clothianidin, imidacloprid, and thiamethoxam as extremely harmful for bees populations.
Modern Roundup produce by the same company Monsanto (biggest producer of Agent Orange) is pretty dangerous too.
http://www.salmone.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/seralini-2012.pdf (http://www.salmone.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/seralini-2012.pdf)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19105591 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19105591)
-
If you want to leave Europe go to England or any country out of Europe (you are not far from Turkey :D).
Never forget the joke "The world is full of foreigners".
If you want to stay in Europe but want to be free (to have children without arms) I can find for you the names of the two villages where it happens.
No rearly, let's be serious!
That is not an option! You tell me to get out of my own country. Before entering EU there was far more freedom. Now it seems like for everything in daily life there is a law. The European bureaucracy takes over. I am not against the EU as a project, it has its benefits but it starts to dictate people what to do which is dangerous, too much power in hands of few countries ( Germany and France).
Anyway a good law was to check the commercial use of pesticides more rigorously, from there the pollution comes, not from the small gardener. For you own use you are responsible what you use.
-
No.
You are allowed to kill yourself but you are not allowed to kill other people. (At least in Europe ;) )
Pesticides are not forbidden for the 'bad' that you are doing to yourself (you are responsible, at least if you know it is a poison), but for the 'bad' you do to other humans, other animals and to the nature. It can be decades later and 5000 km away.
Note: This is not a European law but a French law.
-
There are indeed studies showing some link between glyphosate and a potential for cell detriment. But comparing Roundup to Agent Orange might be akin to comparing an H-bomb to a slingshot (both have the potential to harm humans after all).
Carcinogens are part of everyday life. I mean -- they are even naturally present in our produce. But we need to understand that there are varying levels of danger presented. One would not, for example, equate lettuce with Agent Orange, just because both have potential mutagenic and carcinogenic effects. Similarly, one would not equate riding a bicycle with sky diving, though both are potentially dangerous activities. It's important to be able to view "shades of gray" vs trying to view the world as strictly black or white.
https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2015/11/18/myth-busting-why-agent-orange-has-nothing-do-to-with-gmos-and-the-herbicide-24-d/ (https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2015/11/18/myth-busting-why-agent-orange-has-nothing-do-to-with-gmos-and-the-herbicide-24-d/)
Wait, did we just compare Agent Orange to modern pesticides? Is that a valid comparison?
Hmm. I wonder how many of those who voted for this realize that produce actually manufactures its own pesticides. Look up Dr Ame's research. Here's a little teaser: https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/06/13/9999-pesticides-we-eat-are-produced-plants-themselves-11415 (https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/06/13/9999-pesticides-we-eat-are-produced-plants-themselves-11415)
Generally, extremist political standpoints like these are driven by the counter-swing of the pendulum, which is a natural pattern in normal human society. We went from the post-ww2 glee of manufactured food products and pesticides, both of which were the panacea for modern health issues -- to the modern day extremist viewpoint that all one need do is think about a pesticide to get cancer. Spoiler alert: the best approach is nearly always in between the two extremes.
This also raises the rhetorical question: Are commercial farmers, who are motivated by short term profit margins, more motivated than individual gardeners to properly use pesticides? Also, which segment of the population contributes more to pesticide pollution: commercial farmers with millions of acres of land and pesticide budgets in the millions of dollars, or the backyard gardener with a small plot of land, little time to care for it, and a pea sized budget?
I'm still waiting for California's prop 65 warning to show up on organic produce (again, see Dr Ame's research on this topic :-).
I guess, that this is just a first step. I have no doubts that pesticides and herbicides are dangerous, just look at the Vietnam, decades after the war and usage of agent Orange. Defective babies are born still. Martinique and Guadeloupe soil is affected by Chlordecone poisoning by the banana industry, even cows cannot eat the grass there.
The European Commission last year proposed extending the ban of three neonicotinoids—clothianidin, imidacloprid, and thiamethoxam as extremely harmful for bees populations.
Modern Roundup produce by the same company Monsanto (biggest producer of Agent Orange) is pretty dangerous too.
http://www.salmone.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/seralini-2012.pdf (http://www.salmone.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/seralini-2012.pdf)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19105591 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19105591)
-
I don't know how much longer we should let this post continue. We are starting to beat a dead horse. We have to be careful of the quality of some responses.
-
No.
You are allowed to kill yourself but you are not allowed to kill other people. (At least in Europe ;) )
Pesticides are not forbidden for the 'bad' that you are doing to yourself (you are responsible, at least if you know it is a poison), but for the 'bad' you do to other humans, other animals and to the nature. It can be decades later and 5000 km away.
Note: This is not a European law but a French law.
I agree with you about the poison with the pesticides. I believe 95% of production in France comes from commercial growers who are still allowed. Who checks them? Sure there are some agencies, but it's so expensive to check everything. And companies like profits, if they need to use more they will do it. There are many reports of pesticide residues over the limit. Pesticide business is big money like pharma, an addiction to use.
Last year I found a Spanish company who sells a substance (potassium phosphonate) for which you need registration, they changed the label and when I asked them they said is common practice other do it so we do it also.