The Tropical Fruit Forum
Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: simon_grow on June 25, 2015, 03:00:59 PM
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Hello everyone, I was wondering if anyone has attempted double stone grafting and what was your success rate? Here is an excellent video that talks about different grafting techniques and double stone grafting is at 19 minutes and 20 seconds. Somebody else on this forum posted it in another thread and thus is one of my favorite grafting videos: https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=19m18s&feature=youtu.be&v=hzBerXm1WCY (https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=19m18s&feature=youtu.be&v=hzBerXm1WCY)
Multiple rootstock technology: http://www.philstar.com/agriculture/252796/promise-multiple-rootstock-technology?nomobile=1 (http://www.philstar.com/agriculture/252796/promise-multiple-rootstock-technology?nomobile=1)
Seems the key is to use seedlings with copper colored leaves because the seedling will still be relying on the seed for growth. I performed several double stone grafts about ten days ago and I should know whether I was successful or not in the next two weeks. One of the buds is already pushing out but that is because I only have limited scions to choose from and the buds were a bit over mature for my preference but there are smaller buds lower down the scion.
According to Bernie Dizons website, http://www.dizonexoticfruittrees.com/ref/technology.htm (http://www.dizonexoticfruittrees.com/ref/technology.htm) the multiple rootstocks is supposed to promote faster growth. Multiple rootstocks are also supposed to increase yields and inhibit alternate bearing.
This technique may be especially beneficial for anyone pushing the boundaries for where mango can grow. My trees purchased from Florida seem to grow very slowly, even after removing fruit every year for four years. I believe the double rootstocks and the fully intact tap root will help my double stone grafted trees grow with a lot more vigor.
You can see the double rootstocks at the base of the plant.
(http://s14.postimg.cc/zdr8drtvx/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/zdr8drtvx/)
(http://s14.postimg.cc/lrqil8c99/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/lrqil8c99/)
(http://s14.postimg.cc/ni9jmptsd/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/ni9jmptsd/)
Edited to add link to multiple rootstock grafting
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=109.25 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=109.25)
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Double stone grafted Lemon Zest
(http://s2.postimg.cc/5lvhx3gzp/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/5lvhx3gzp/)
Double bark graft on young Manilla rootstock
(http://s2.postimg.cc/77fd2nglh/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/77fd2nglh/)
Next I'm going to try double greenwood grafting by using seedlings that are past the copper leaf stage. I feel this method of double grafting may be quicker and easier than innarching.
Simon
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Thanks for sharing Simon....enjoyed the entire grafting video (background music too).
Let us know how the LZ does...but its probably going to grow pretty fast no matter which rootstock or how many rootstocks it has. I see you used kent seedlings for rootstocks. I have an LZ on manila and an LZ on Turpentine and they both seem to be growing vigorously in Socal compared to other varieties.
For the double bark graft, I see you put on NDM and Maha...fairly slow growers in SoCal. Curious to see how these slower growers do on manila rootstock.
Good luck!
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I did a couple of these grafts two weeks ago. They're useful when you have scions that are thicker than the rootstock. It's pushing now I believe. Must be the recent heat waves.
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Warren, very true, Lemon Zest is a very vigorous grower even on whatever rootstock is used in Florida, however the growth is still droopy, at least in my yard. It's as if the rootstock can't keep up with the canopy. Tim gave me a LZ grafted onto Manilla rootstock and the scion grew so vigorously that the scion had a much larger diameter than the rootstock causing it to snap near the graft Union and killing the tree.
I used Kent seedlings for these initial grafts because my Manilla seedlings all seem to come up with green leaves and very thin stalks. My next set of double stone grafts will be using two different seedlings, one American and one Indian. Mostly I will be using Kent, Haden, Banganpalli and Mallika. I'm hoping there will be competition between the rootstocks so the taproot will go farther and deeper.
I did a double stone graft on NDM as well to see if the double rootstocks would increase the rate of growth of this relatively slow growing variety.
The double bark grafts with NDM and Leo's Maha Chanok onto Manilla rootstock was also done to see if there is better growth on this rootstock vs Turpentine or whatever rootstock is used in Florida.
Simon
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Shramjeevi has some very good videos, I cam across them a couple weeks ago on youtube. I really like how slow and close up he does the grafts, and he repeats them.
And the one thing that made me say wow, was when he did the double stone graft. I would think that this would have a higher success rate, than the single.
I will be trying this soon. which reminds me, that I need to buy a few of the local poly mangoes, before they are out of season.
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The problem I've had with poly mangos, namely Manilla types, is that they have multiple small and weak sprouts come up and the leaves almost immediately turn green. According to the video, the leaves should be in the copper color stage.
Xshen, do you have any pictures of your grafts? Do you have any advice? Instead of following what the video did, I planted my stones/seeds directly into pots so that I wouldn't have to pull them up for grafting. I first tightly bound the seedlings together about 1 inch above soil level so that the two stalks were touching and then I cut off their tops below their lowest leaves depending on diameter of my scion. Here is an update with one bud pushing. This is a Lemon Zest grafted onto two Kent Seedlings.
Simon
(http://s3.postimg.cc/4ezqe6k1b/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/4ezqe6k1b/)
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Hey Simon,
Here is the one that I did. The scion is Cowasjee patel X pirie and the rootstock is a manila less than 10 years old. My dad's friend gave me this tree so I am not sure exactly how old is the rootstock. Scions that took push very vigorously.
I tied the two manila shoots together at the base before decapitating. If the scion becomes too small for the combined shoots, I would then shave off a bit of bark on the two shoots where they make contact. Shave slowly and keep on shaving until you get a perfect match. It's hard to see but the wound on the scion and rootstock is already starting to callous/heal.
(https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3689/19007682368_4c928487d4_b.jpg)
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3842/18573405004_5fed4ec8e9_b.jpg)
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Hello xshen, nice grafts. I would not consider those grafts as double stone grafts because it appears fresh seedlings were not used and there is only one rootstock instead of two. I think double softwood or double greenwood grafts is more fitting. The double grafts you did look very beneficial for scions that are too large.
The double stone grafts are supposed to really help with increased vigor due to having two root systems, both with intact taproots.
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Lol I just realized the lack of 2 rootstocks. Thanks for clarifying.
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So far my double stone grafted Lemon Zest looks good. The first bud that pushed appears to be an actual push and not due to use of over mature scion.
Simon
(http://s23.postimg.cc/8vxj5ntbr/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/8vxj5ntbr/)
(http://s23.postimg.cc/l95ryttmf/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/l95ryttmf/)
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Nice work Simon! Looks like a really fun graft to do. Been wanting to try this graft for a while.
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It has been exactly two weeks since I performed double stone grafting with this Lemon Zest scion and the growth has been amazing! It's pushed out about two inches in length and the spread of the leaves is approximately 6 inches wide. All this in just two weeks since grafting! The union is already calloused over and you can see the expansion of the union has caused the parafilm to break. Upon close inspection of both rootstocks, it appears that both rootstocks are fused to the scion on at least one side. I cannot see through the parafilm on the other side.
I am taking a chance and I'm already putting this newly grafted plant into part sun because I want to see if I can quickly acclimate it to outdoor life in the hopes that I can plant it into the ground within two weeks. I have lost a couple of grafted seedlings by not acclimating them slowly enough but I am hoping that the two root systems will help it acclimate faster.
I want to plant this multiple rootstock tree into the ground ASAP so that the roots do not wind around in circles in its current pot. I'm hoping that if I get good results with these initial test plantings, other SoCal growers will start adapting this technique and also the In Situ grafting of seedlings planted directly into the ground.
Leo Manuel, Eunice and others have already proved that top working healthy seedlings planted directly into the ground will yield excellent growth and fruition of Mango trees so I will not experiment any further as the point is already proven. See this thread for an example: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=2194.0. (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=2194.0.) Instead, I will be focusing on two other techniques that do not require multiple years to grow a strong and established seedling. These two techniques are the namesake of this thread, Double Stone Grafting and In Situ grafting of young seedling in the greenwood stage. I'm hoping that these two techniques will yield similar results to grafting onto established seedlings but in a shorter amount of time.
Simon
(http://s4.postimg.cc/f6s9prwt5/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/f6s9prwt5/)
(http://s4.postimg.cc/rk53womhl/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/rk53womhl/)
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Simon,
thanks for sharing your experiments. I also like to try these, preferably the seedlings planted directly in the ground, method, soon...!
Keep us updated, your results so far look promising!
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I think that your contribution on mango seedlings are amazing, as much as your contribution on avocado seedlings.
Personally biggest issues for zone pusher (as i consider myself) are the lack of good starting material, and i'm not talking here of any fancy variety of mango: I'm speaking of scions of the correct size of the rootstock you hope to graft, or seedlings of the correct variety of mango, and so on. Usually i consider myself very lucky if i see, at the grocery store anything different from a Tommy Atkins.
Aside from this rant, what i was willing to say is: the idea of seedling grafting is very interesting specially for those who are searching for a bushy growth to their mangos. Which in my opinion is mandatory for potted growing, and also for growing them in a enclosure, because it allows for LOW grafts. That kind of plants are very rare (if present at all) in Europe, so any technique for production plants with a low graft is very welcome!
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Hello Sam, I performed a couple grafts of seedlings In Situ, meaning I planted the seeds directly into the ground and left them there and grafted them in place. My seedlings were about 8-10 inches tall when I grafted them about two weeks ago and they are pushing new growth. One seedling was grafted with Maha Chanok and is planted at the base of a Florida grafted Maha that hasent grown much in the last two years. It just keeps pushing flowers. I want to see if this In Situ grafted seedling can catch up with this established larger grafted tree. This In Situ grafted seedling has a single rootstock.
Thanks for the compliments Pancrazio but it's the OG CRFGers like Leo Manuel that showed me the way. The double stone grafting technique is very useful for scions that are too large. My double stone grafted trees should have a very low branching structure and hopefully will be more productive with the two rootstocks.
Simon
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Here is a picture of an In Situ grafted Nam Doc Mai and Lemon Zest grafted on a single rootstock. These were green wood grafted but unlike in the video, I did not leave any leaves. I think I will get better success rate if I left some leaves below the graft to supply energy but the stalk was too thin above the lowest leaves. By grafting below the lowest set of leaves, there is less chance for the rootstock to sprout new branches.
Simon
(http://s12.postimg.cc/40grzq521/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/40grzq521/)
(http://s12.postimg.cc/gcjod7swp/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/gcjod7swp/)
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lol I was the first one to post about it here. I'm glad it's working well.
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Thanks for sharing simmon. Do you store your grafts in a greenhouse or in the shade? thanks and good job as always ;D
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Darkcoolboo, did you try the double stone grafts? If so how are they doing? Thanks for sharing any info you have.
Hello Socal10b, for the double stone grafts, the video recommended to move the grafted seedling into a poly house but they don't use parafilm. I moved my double grafted seedlings into my garage and gave it full darkness for one day and then I put it under T5 lighting until I saw the scion pushing growth. Once they start pushing, I take them into the yard and give them full sun if it's not too hot. If it's hot and dry, I protect it from direct overhead sun by putting them in the shade.
For my In Situ grafts, they are in the ground so I moved a potted tree next to them to give them partial shade. I've also done many grafts on older Manilla rootstock in direct sun and those also took.
Simon
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Hello everyone, I just wanted to share my experience with double stone grafting in case others wanted to give it a try.
Instead of planting my Mango seeds directly into the ground, I planted them into pots so I wouldn't have to uproot them for grafting. You have to know which end the sprout will come out or else the sprouts will be too far apart for double stone grafting. If the sprouts come up far apart from each other, you can just pull them up and repot them next to each other.
Once the seedlings come up, I wait until the leaves are almost fully expanded but still in the copper color stage. I use parafilm and tie the two seedlings together at the base prior to topping and grafting so that they will not move around during the grafting process.
When you make your vertical cut down the double stems, be very careful that you are cutting both stems right down the middle. The seedling stems are very soft and it is easy to miss align the cuts.
When you wrap the union, you have to make sure that the soft stems of the seedlings don't miss align while you are wrapping. They are so soft that it is very easy to squish the stalk of one seedling over the stalk of the other, especially if you like to do really tight wraps like I do.
Simon
(http://s12.postimg.cc/4zs57knbd/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/4zs57knbd/)
(http://s12.postimg.cc/u4ek78xe1/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/u4ek78xe1/)
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Hey Simon,
Here is the one that I did. The scion is Cowasjee patel X pirie and the rootstock is a manila less than 10 years old. My dad's friend gave me this tree so I am not sure exactly how old is the rootstock. Scions that took push very vigorously.
I tied the two manila shoots together at the base before decapitating. If the scion becomes too small for the combined shoots, I would then shave off a bit of bark on the two shoots where they make contact. Shave slowly and keep on shaving until you get a perfect match. It's hard to see but the wound on the scion and rootstock is already starting to callous/heal.
(https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3689/19007682368_4c928487d4_b.jpg)
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3842/18573405004_5fed4ec8e9_b.jpg)
Very nice grafts. I just want to know why the scions needed to be taped up completely? I thought it's enough just to tape up and cover the grafting areas to secure and protect the graft join. Covering the scion completely to avoid it being dried out? Did you use a small plastic "tube" to cover the graft as shown in the Indian farmer video, which served to prevent the lost of moisture.
Thanks,
Sapote
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Hey Sapote, I covered the entire scion and graft Union to prevent drying out. In the video, they put plastic bags over the scion and moved the grafted plants into a poly house in order to limit evaporation and to prevent direct sunlight from drying out the new grafts, I think. I use Buddy tape or Parafilm to wrap my scions instead of using the bag.
I also took my new grafts into the garage and gave them one day of full darkness followed by about 18 hours of T5 lighting at 3 feet distance from top of plants. After about 3 days at 3 feet, I move the light to two feet from the top of the plants for the next two days. Then I give them two days at about 6-8 inches from the top of the light. After this, I acclimate them to outdoor condition. My schedule and lighting adjustments change depending on the growth of the graft. I will accelerate the higher light growing conditions if the grafted plant is growing fast. My initial double grafted Lemon Zest is already adapted to full sun and its leaves are just starting to turn green. We've had some rainy weather that has slowed its growth.
Simon
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Here is an update of the original double stone grafted Lemon Zest. It was grafted on 06/19/15 and was planted into the ground today. First picture is before I put it into the ground. Second picture shows a small sprout that came up from one of the seeds. I've had new sprouts come up on a couple of my double stone grafted Mangos. I remove them as I see them and the plants seem to be doing fine. The third picture is after I planted into the ground on a small mound. You can see my soil is clay and rocks. I topped it with some good potting soil with minerals and mycorrhizae.
Simon
(http://s2.postimg.cc/47m8ba6h1/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/47m8ba6h1/)
(http://s2.postimg.cc/452cog2th/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/452cog2th/)
(http://s2.postimg.cc/tzc5e82th/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/tzc5e82th/)
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Hi Simon,
I think I also watched other video from India with root stock on ground, and I didn't see they used anything to protect the graft from hot sun. I recently grafted a few different scions to my MD Malila which was damaged from this winter and there are many new shoots now for top work. I cut strips out out plastic bag for grafting tape as in the video, and cover with plastic tubes. But I also cover the clear tubes with stapled white paper for sun protection. It has been over a week and all 3 scions are green but no new grow pushed out yet.
From Xshen: " If the scion becomes too small for the combined shoots, I would then shave off a bit of bark on the two shoots where they make contact." I'm not clear on this. Shave off the root stock bark to match with scion doesn't help, I think, because it loose the cambium which is crucial for grafting. No?
Sapote
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I am going to give this a try with mangosteen. I have a few small G. Xanthochymus planted right next to each other that are too thin to just do normal wedges.
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The initial Double Stone grafted Lemon Zest on two Kent rootstock is now in full sun and planted into a mound and seems to be happy. It is growing at an astonishingly fast rate compared to single rootstock seedlings. The leaves have already turned green and I have removed all parafilm from the union. I'll update with pics soon.
My Double Stone graft of NDM on two Kent rootstock was growing excellent as well with three growth stems but bugs ate two of the stems. The two rootstocks seems to greatly accelerate the growth of NDM even at this early stage compared to my NDM on single rootstock. NDM has grown very slowly for me and some others that I have seen that are planted in the ground. Here is a picture before and after insects ate a couple stems.
(http://s8.postimg.cc/lhbprib29/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/lhbprib29/)
(http://s8.postimg.cc/cl0xnkkg1/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/cl0xnkkg1/)
Here are a couple pictures of other Double Stone grafted Mango on various rootstocks. I have some on Double rootstocks with one Kent/Haden and with the other rootstock with Kesar/Banganpali/Malika. I also have a couple DS grafts on two Indian rootstock.
(http://s18.postimg.cc/bs2d8yr85/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/bs2d8yr85/)
(http://s18.postimg.cc/oi6lm1z6d/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/oi6lm1z6d/)
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Update on my soft-wood grafting: All 4 scions -- 1 Maha, 2 OKrung Tong, 1 Indian variety -- grafted on one HD bought "Mexican Manila" are ok. Maha is pushing 10mm shoot, and the rest with buds. The root stock is in ground outdoor. They are still under the plastic tubes protection. It seems the best timing for grafting is when the root stock branch is having new growth in warm weather.
Sapote
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P.S.
As I had said I cut a clear plastic bag into 1/2" strips for use in place of parafilm grafting tape which I don't have, and they worked fine and no cost. I also used a short piece of Scotch tape to help secure the end of the strip to the root stock before wrapping it. This makes the job easier since the plastic strip end wanted to slip on a smooth root stock without the Scotch tape.
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Did mine today
1 X double stone, Maha on Banilejo
1 X single stone, Maha on Banilejo
fingers crossed, but I think it will be a long shot, scions were not optimal state. will upload picture if successful.
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Sapote, I think your grafts will grow well assuming they take. I've had really nice growth on Manilla rootstock. Your plastic bag method demonstrates that you can use some enginuity and don't have to use grafting tape.
Tropic dude, I would love to see some comparisons once your grafts take and start growing. Are your grafts in pots or in the ground? I'm especially interested to see if several years down the road, when these DSG trees are fruiting, the comparison of productivity between double and single stone grafted plants.
Simon
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Sapote, I think your grafts will grow well assuming they take. I've had really nice growth on Manilla rootstock. Your plastic bag method demonstrates that you can use some enginuity and don't have to use grafting tape.
Tropic dude, I would love to see some comparisons once your grafts take and start growing. Are your grafts in pots or in the ground? I'm especially interested to see if several years down the road, when these DSG trees are fruiting, the comparison of productivity between double and single stone grafted plants.
Simon
I started the seeds in loose soil, , then dug them up, was really surprised how long and developed the roots were in such a short time. then used the technique used in the video. I heald them together a bit with grafting tape.
I tried to prep the scions before, cutting, but they sprung new growth in just days so they were paste the point, I had to use unprepped scions. so timing was off a bit. I will keep trying though even if these fail.
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Sapote, it sounds like your grafts are doing fine so far. I think it is necessary to wrap our scions with parafilm or something similar or at least cover with a bag to retain moisture. It may be possible to get takes without it but I would hazard to guess that you will get more takes with a wrap or bag.
It is ok to remove or shave your scion to get a better fit. The more contact you have, the better but if you lose a little bit of cambium, it is ok.
Simon
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With the surprised humidity and the tropical rain in SoCal the last few days, my Maha graft has shoot out more than an inch. I can see the other grafts have started to break through the shell. I believe all 5 grafts are alive. I will post some photos tomorrow. This is too easy than I had thought :)
Sapote
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I would like to share with everyone some suggestion I have regarding double stone grafting.
First of all, I have to give credit to shramajeevi for making such a great and informative grafting video. The method of planting seeds directly into the ground works much better than what I originally did which was planting seeds directly next to each other in a pot. I thought I could save a step by not having to pluck out the sprouts and replanting into a pot but when I planted directly into a pot, some sprouts would sprout early and others would sprout later making it difficult to get two sprouts in the copper leaf stage at the same time. It was also difficult to know where or which end of the seed the sprout will come out of. I now plant seeds in a loose bed and select sprouts that are the appropriate size as in the video.
Another thing that I discovered is that Mango seedlings sprout out an extremely long tap root, even at the copper leaf stage. When I planted my original Double Stone Grafted Lemon Zest into the ground, the tap root already hit the bottom of the ~12 inch tall pot and was starting to make a turn. I suggest using a deep pot at least 16-18 inches tall if possible or planting out your DSG plants as soon as the union has healed sufficiently in order to avoid having both rootstocks get pot bound. I also noticed that my plants that were inoculated with mycorrhizal fungi had extensively longer and more branched roots and also that these roots were much more fragile than normal roots. They are almost crunchy when you snap them and not flexible at all. Just touching these roots can snap them.
I've also had insects and animals eating new growth and knocking scions off my newly grafted plants so it may be a good insurance policy to spray new growth with something to deter insects.
Simon
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With the surprised humidity and the tropical rain in SoCal the last few days, my Maha graft has shoot out more than an inch. I can see the other grafts have started to break through the shell. I believe all 5 grafts are alive. I will post some photos tomorrow. This is too easy than I had thought :)
Sapote
That's great to hear and you have it on good rootstock so you should be getting some fruit in a couple years. Now I suggest you try a Double Stone Graft with your favorite Mango variety. If you can do a regular cleft graft, the DSG is pretty much the same. I now have two Lemon Zest on Florida rootstock, three grafts of LZ on Manilla rootstock and five Double Stone Grafted LZ. Can you guess what my favorite variety is?
Simon
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Here's some quick updates of my DSG mango.
My first DSG Lemon Zest, the new growth is very beautiful and look extremely healthy.
(http://s24.postimg.cc/b08lxy4sh/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/b08lxy4sh/)
(http://s24.postimg.cc/c1499bwe9/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/c1499bwe9/)
A DSGed lemon Zest on double Indian seed, I believe this one is Malika and Banganpali.
(http://s4.postimg.cc/sbda3l47t/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/sbda3l47t/)
A couple more DSGed LZ
(http://s21.postimg.cc/uuaaxio83/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/uuaaxio83/)
(http://s21.postimg.cc/spkvzbg9v/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/spkvzbg9v/)
Here is a DSGed Lemon Zest that was grafted in ground. I dug up two seedlings, planted it here and grafted it. It does have two rootstocks and I'm using a potted plant to shade it from direct sunlight.
(http://s12.postimg.cc/mgkmtlewp/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/mgkmtlewp/)
Here is a DSGed Nam Doc Mai that was growing really well until some insects ate two of the newly emerging branches. You can see a new bud is getting ready to sprout.
(http://s29.postimg.cc/h7iobgh83/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/h7iobgh83/)
Simon
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Hi Simon, Yours look so healthy. LZ must be your favorite!!! I have not tasted LZ before but know it will be my next grafting project. I have two 24" Manila seedlings in the ground and I will graft LZ on them. PM me if you have 1 or 2 LZ scions that I can buy. You're in SD and I'm in Burbank -- a short shipping time in this case.
Here are some photos I took this morning:
Maha with new shoot. It's the strongest graft compare to other varieties grafted at the same time
(http://s12.postimg.cc/lh1v0cnc9/Maha.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/lh1v0cnc9/)
Okrung-tong with buds
(http://s2.postimg.cc/3yj5haa3p/Okrungtong.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/3yj5haa3p/)
Indian Alampur -- the slowest graft in the group. it is under the plastic tube
(http://s24.postimg.cc/5bft5yey9/Alampur.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/5bft5yey9/)
When my Santa Rosa plump died this spring due to soil covered the trunk, I planted some winter-melon into the same hole for the melon to get up the dead tree. I also did the air-layering on my brother Lychee and then replace the dead plump with the Lychee next spring. Winter melon soup this winter:
(http://s4.postimg.cc/ayoizu9u1/Wintermelon.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/ayoizu9u1/)
Sapote
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Another thing that I discovered is that Mango seedlings sprout out an extremely long tap root, even at the copper leaf stage. When I planted my original Double Stone Grafted Lemon Zest into the ground, the tap root already hit the bottom of the ~12 inch tall pot
I was also a bit surprised at how well developed the root was in just 1 week of sprouting, I noticed that nurseries here are starting to use the long poly bags, 18" for rootstock. they told me it make a very big difference in the survival rate of transplant in the field. next time I do this I will use these bags, plant a few seeds in them, and then cut it open, to extract the little plantlets. then re plant them double stoned and grafted in another similar long bag. these bags are hold about as much volume as a3 gallon pot but are longer. so they could probably stay in these until ready to go in the ground.
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Tropicdude, I'm going to start looking for those bags for my future grafting experiments. Here are a couple pictures showing how long a Mango seedling tap root can grow for newly sprouted seeds. The ruler is slightly over 8 inches. You can see that the taproot for some of the seedlings that haven't even sprouted a shoot yet can get close to 8 inches before even popping a shoot above ground.
I'm finding out now it's easier to plant a bunch of seeds and collect them as soon as a shoot just breaks the surface of the soil in order to get the seedling with the taproot as short as possible. I broke the taproot of several of the seedlings in the pictures.
Simon
(http://s8.postimg.cc/6ewt1bvvl/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/6ewt1bvvl/)
(http://s8.postimg.cc/5nzhht44h/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/5nzhht44h/)
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Simon,
thanks for displaying pictures of those long tap roots of those seeds. Like you and others, I realized this also, and really surprised by what I see every time I dug a young seedling from the ground or remove it from the pot. I felt so bad when I accidentally cut the taproot.
By the way, which way is better, save the long taproot that is already circling the bottom of the pot, or cut some of it off, then replant it in the ground? Will the cut taproot regrows again, as it would be when you pug a trunk above the ground?
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Hi Simon,
Your seeds germinated very nice. Could you share how and what environment for the process? When I placed the seeds directly into the soil medium with 1/3 of seed exposed, they either dried off or got molded. I found the best for me was to placed the seed in a clear plastic box with just tiny bit of water, in the warm oven by the pilot gas light. This worked very well if those hairy black mold didn't appear. Once the root was about an inch then it's safe to plant it into a tall 12" milk carton with cut out drains.
BTW, do you have any LZ scions that I can buy from you?
Sapote
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By the way, which way is better, save the long taproot that is already circling the bottom of the pot, or cut some of it off, then replant it in the ground? Will the cut taproot regrows again, as it would be when you pug a trunk above the ground?
I would try to straight the tip section of the circling tap root vertically into the ground during plating so it will continue going down deep.
Sapote
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Hello Sam, If the roots are not too pot bound, I would try to gently untangle the tap root. If the tap root has fully encircled the pot meaning that it has grown completely 360 degrees around the pot making a complete circle, I would root prune. Pruning the tap root will encourage more branching out of the root system, similar to pruning the top canopy but remember that I feel strongly that a fully intact tap root can be beneficial for earlier establishment of mango trees grown in less than ideal conditions as well as benefiting the mango tree in the long term by increasing hardiness in drought conditions.
I am also hypothesizing that a fully intact tap root or perhaps multiple rootstock mango trees may show less tendency for splitting of fruit. I'm just making a guess on this but a fully intact tap root may be able to spread out down and outward for great distances allowing for better access to water and possibly moderating drought stress while holding fruit which may decrease fruit splitting. Others have hypothesized that fruit splitting is caused by lack of certain nutrients so the fully intact tap root and multiple rootstock technology may only lessen the number of cracked fruit although both these techniques may also prove beneficial in better nutrient uptake due to a better overall root system.
Now I'm starting to think if inoculation with mycorrhizal fungi may benefit mango varieties with a tendency toward split fruit by helping with nutrient uptake. Well, I have a double rootstock Nam Doc Mai that has been inoculated with mycorrhizal fungi and beneficial bacteria so I guess I'll find out in about 3-5 years unless the double rootstock really accelerates growth, fingers crossed!
Simon
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Sapote, for germinating the mango seeds, I use two methods depending on how fast I need them to sprout. If I need a seedling ASAP, I remove the embryo from the husk and wrap them up in a moist paper towel and put this into a plastic ziplock bag. I then put this bag of seeds on something very warm like a seedling heat mat, something approximately 95 degrees and you'll see roots pop out within two weeks.
If I'm not in a rush for seedlings, I simply plant the de husked mango embryos directly into my garden soil where I know it will get water at least once a week. I completely bury the embryo with about .5-1 inch of soil. If I'm planting mono seeds, I plant the seed vertically with the hump up, difficult to tell where the hump is with some seeds. If I'm planting poly seeds, I plant the embryo on its flat side.
Actually I have a third technique. Lately I've been planting my mango embryos into large plastic half barrels from Home Depot. I did some experiments with different potting soils in the past and discovered that I got the best sprouting of most varieties of seeds using Miracle Grow potting soil. It works better than the more expensive potting soils I've tried. When seeds are planted with these last two methods, when they sprout will depend on average daily temps.
Simon
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Simon,
Thanks again for all the info you share about what you know to all of us here in this open forum. I am learning a lot from reading them.
Sam.
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Update on my softwood graft.
The larger leaves new growth is from Maha scion. To the right is Okrung Tong with light green leaves. direct below it is another OKrung with scion with 2 branches.
(http://s21.postimg.cc/895qmf01f/IMG_0435.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/895qmf01f/)
The one inside the plastic tube is Indian Alampur, grafted at the same time but it's a slow grow variety I think. At lower right is the root stock HD Manila new growth with copper red leaves.
(http://s8.postimg.cc/tplrei0xt/IMG_0434.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/tplrei0xt/)
I also wanted to post the pic of that same OKrung tong tree where I took the scions, in case it will die. It is having a big section of the trunk with trunk-rot. I opened the wound and apply copper spray fungicide every other day to save it. I saw sap oozed out and felt the soft bark, then cut off the bad part and applied fungicide. It seems making progress as new shoots are coming out. This tree was planted on ground since last year spring, and not a single new leave until now. I think it was my fault that it had root-bound due to having the soil surface with a deep at the trunk, causing water concentrate here and not further out, leading to root bound. After reversing the soil surface this spring, all trees are doing much better with new growths.
(http://s13.postimg.cc/3zo8ylh4z/Okrung_trunkrot1.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/3zo8ylh4z/)
(http://s3.postimg.cc/5nr11xfgf/Okrung_trunkrot2.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/5nr11xfgf/)
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My attempt failed, all three of them :( but will try again, I am not that surprised, I believe the timing was way off.
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Hey Tropicdude, did you use monoembryonic seeds and were the seedlings in the copper leaf stage? I've done 10 DSG and have 8 takes and two failures. My two failures were likely due to poor cuts on the scion and I also remember that the scions were slightly less thick than the width of the combined double rootstocks.
I am doing one test to see if I can get success on Double Stone Grafts if I leave a nurse leaf. This graft was performed on 07/21/15 and the scion is still green and buds are beginning to push. By leaving the nurse leaf, I feel that the seedling may have less probability of aborting the current sprout and pushing a new sprout from the seed, which has happened to me even on DSGs that did take. When I see a thin brown callus on the graft union, there is a high probability of success.
My major worry with leaving the nurse leaf is that the rootstock will push new growth from the leaf node.
Simon
(http://s16.postimg.cc/tc8tkww5t/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/tc8tkww5t/)
(http://s16.postimg.cc/kfy1gz5jl/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/kfy1gz5jl/)
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Simon, do you sell your grafted trees?
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Hello Zarafet, sorry but I don't sell my DSGed Mango trees. I've given most of mine away to friends and family. It is quite a lot of work to make these trees but if there is enough interest, perhaps JF and Behlgarden can be convinced to graft some trees up for sale but that's up to them. I know they have excellent multigraft trees available on a limited basis and I've already reserved one for myself. I would think that the DSGed trees would sell for at least double the single rootstock trees due to the extra rootstock involved and the extra care required to create these trees.
These DSGed mango trees are still unproven here in San Diego but I will keep everyone updated so that people can follow along. For now, I would recommend people from SoCal look for trees grafted onto Manilla rootstock as that rootstock has been proven to grow well down here.
Simon
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@Simon
They were in copper leaf stage, just at the point were they were transitioning to green, ( 95% copper ) .
These were poly seeds from the traditional local rootstock variety.
I feel it was the scions that were just not at the proper stage, and maybe the wrong size.
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Hey Tropicdude, that does sound like it's because of the scion. I've done a couple DSGs with slight greening on a leaf or two and they were successful. From your previous post, it sounds like you used scion with buds that were just starting to push. Although I've had success with scions with buds that already pushed, it is not ideal. Don't give up, plant lots of seeds on a staggered schedule so that you can select the best ones for DSG. By staggering the planting of your seeds, you should have availability of seedling rootstocks at the proper copper leaf stage when your scions are ready.
Simon
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Here's a quick update on a few DSGed trees. My first DSGed Lemon Zest was grafted on 06/18/15 and was planted into the ground on 07/02/15. It has hardened its first set of leaves and is pushing its second set of leaves now.
(http://s15.postimg.cc/h3shd7eqv/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/h3shd7eqv/)
My DSG Nam Doc Mai had three of its new branches eaten by something but it has hardened its first set of leaves and has pushed out a second growth bud of leaves.
(http://s21.postimg.cc/crafei7hv/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/crafei7hv/)
I experimented with a DSGed Lemon Zest by leaving on nurse leaf and the graft took as expected and it appears that the nurse leaf aids in the callousing of the graft Union as the parafilm broke several days earlier than I expected. The downside to leaving the nurse leaf is that you leave a growth point where the rootstock can, and did, send up new growth. This is easily taken care of by punching back the growth. This tree was given to Peter to plant at his orchard. I hope it grows well for him.
(http://s3.postimg.cc/xbo3wkaf3/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/xbo3wkaf3/)
(http://s3.postimg.cc/fk7w4d5mn/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/fk7w4d5mn/)
Simon
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Simon,
The first 2 photos are so unreal looking with the mature LZ and NDM leaves above those tiny seedling legs. Hey, they might even send out new flower next spring :o Very nice works with the professional looking name tags.
Sapote
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Thanks for the updates Simmon and good job.
I did a sweet tart graft recently using stone grafting method on a young edgar seedling, it looks like the scion is budding out now. I will post a pic of it later.
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Thanks Sapote and Socal10b. I hope the DSGed Lemon Zest does not flower next year, I want it to grow nice and big without the droopy branching issues of the trees grafted onto Florida rootstock.
Socal10b, if you can do a stone graft, the DSG is not much more difficult. I'm having lots of fun grafting up all these trees. I'm going to start messing around with DSGs using one Mono and one Poly seed in hopes of giving the grafted tree additional resistance to Anthracnose and Powdery mildew. This is not proven but it will be fun just messing around. I wish I had a acres of land to experiment on Mangos.
Socal10b let me know if you have any extra Sweettart scion wood you want to swap. I have Lemon Zest and a few other varieties I can trade with you.
Simon
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Simmon, I just pruned my tree and gave scions to friends, I will let you know when I have scions.
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That would be great Socal10b. I'm in the process of replacing all my mangos on Turpentine rootstock with Double Stone grafted trees using mostly newer unpatented Zill varieties. The only non Zill variety I'm trying to get is Jumbo Kesar/Kesar.
Simon
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Most of my trees are experiencing the droopy issue, except mallika is doing fine on turpentine rootstock, maybe it is a slow grower. I like to tip my trees often to prevent branches reaching the ground and make them more compact.
I'm trying to graft scions onto my own rootstocks I grew from seeds as well.
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That would be great Socal10b. I'm in the process of replacing all my mangos on Turpentine rootstock with Double Stone grafted trees using mostly newer unpatented Zill varieties. The only non Zill variety I'm trying to get is Jumbo Kesar/Kesar.
Simon
Simon,
I still have the kesar scion waiting for you.
Kesar is a slow grower for me.
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Yes, most Mango varieties grafted onto Whatever is being used as rootstock in Florida will give you droopy growth. If you don't have droopy growth now, you may get it later. The dropiness usually happens after the second or third vegetative flush. At this point, the plant appears to be finally settling in and showing decent growth. You may even see multiple vegetative growths coming out of multiple leaf axials, then the growth pushes hard and heavy and you will notice the branches begin to droop closer and closer and closer to the ground as the vegetative growth continues to expand. Even branches that started out very vertical will be weighed down by the new growth.
I consider myself a patient person, I like fishing. I planted several mango trees I purchased from Florida about four years ago and every year, they would bloom and set lots of small mangos. Trying to do the right thing, I would remove the small fruits in order to divert the energy into vegetative growth and for better establishment of the tree. After four year, my Alphonso has more leaves and branches on the floor than upright on the tree. My Glenn was staked upright but as the limbs extend, they begin to droop onto the ground.
I feel that planting seeds and then grafting on top of the seedling is a better rout to take. You could also use LaVern Manilla mango trees as root stock as they are pretty much proven to produce more upright growth and adapt to our soils very well. I may start a new topic to show the dramatic growth difference between the two different types of rootstocks.
If you go with seedlings, try the Double Stone Graft, I'm pretty confident you will be happy with the results if your graft takes.
Simon
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Hello Warren, that's awesome. kesar is one of my favorite non Zill varieties. Please send it over when you get a chance, please check your pm. Do you happen to know if you have Kesar or Jumbo Kesar? I'll definitely do the DSG on this scion you send me. I bet I'll get excellent growth with multiple rootstocks. Thanks again Warren!
Simon
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Hello Warren, that's awesome. kesar is one of my favorite non Zill varieties. Please send it over when you get a chance, please check your pm. Do you happen to know if you have Kesar or Jumbo Kesar? I'll definitely do the DSG on this scion you send me. I bet I'll get excellent growth with multiple rootstocks. Thanks again Warren!
Simon
Simon,
I got the scion from Squam last year. I believe the scion he gave me was a Kesar and not a Jumbo Kesar. Squam has both trees supposedly. I guess I won't really know until it fruits. The scion was grafted on my bigger Glenn tree, so hopefully it will fruit sooner.
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Thanks Warren, either one would be great in my book. I've never had the Jumbo Kesars but from what I e read, it tastes the same but just larger.
I was just at my inlaws house and I checked up on a DSGed Lemon Zest on double Indian rootstock and the tree is growing great even though it is planted in the shade. It gets approximately 2-3 hours of direct sunlight and then it is shared for the rest of the day. It was grafted on 07/04/15. Here's a few pictures.
Simon
(http://s22.postimg.cc/hr52qt4h9/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/hr52qt4h9/)
(http://s22.postimg.cc/h07r7acq5/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/h07r7acq5/)
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wow Simon, that's a lot of growth. My damaged lz from frost last year on turpentine hardly grows, i need to add another rootstock to boost some growth.
I saw a homeade airpot in the background, is it working as intended?
thanks for the update again very impressive :)
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I like the super roots pots but I prefer the Fabric pots. The Super roots pots has a lot of water and soil wash out of all the holes which is not a good thing in this drought. The Fabric pots don't have the soil runoff and has less water runoff.
Socal10b, I would suggest planting a Lavern Manilla Mango and grafting it with your Lemon Zest. You may also want to try this DSG. I would not recommend adding a rootstock to the turpentine rootstock plant.
Simon
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Thanks Simon for the tip, i grafted a lz scion to an atatulfo rootstock.
Sweet tart grafted on 7/30/15
(http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y470/socal10b/IMG_20150814_115329_zpsrojwmvko.jpg) (http://s1276.photobucket.com/user/socal10b/media/IMG_20150814_115329_zpsrojwmvko.jpg.html)
another one grafted on last week, terminal bud already pushed out, but can't really see from the pic.
(http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y470/socal10b/IMG_20150814_115352_zpstprncia2.jpg) (http://s1276.photobucket.com/user/socal10b/media/IMG_20150814_115352_zpstprncia2.jpg.html)
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These trees will do better in the long run. Watch out for the extreme heat we are about to receive, new flushes can easily get burned.
Simon
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Exactly, my keitt flushes fried, the others didn't even feel the heat, it was 106 here.
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It has been scorching hot and will get hotter over the weekend. Suprisingly, my mango trees love this heatwave, so far so good. Keep plants well watered.
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Here's an update on my original DSGed Lemon Zest. It's only been several days since the last post but the plant has been growing very fast in this heat. Weather Underground says it got to 104F near my house, it was 101 yesterday and the new leaves did not burn. This picture was taken this evening. Plant still look promising and the double rootstocks seems to do well in the heat, even the new growth.
Simon
(http://s22.postimg.cc/yd3j5uvwt/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/yd3j5uvwt/)
(http://s22.postimg.cc/lx6tc42kt/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/lx6tc42kt/)
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That's amazing Simon.
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I just did 3 of these types of grafts with mangosteen onto G. Xanthochymus. The grafts are not even a week old though so it will be a while before I know anything. The sizes matched up great though. Hoping one of them takes at least.
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Here are some new photos on the Maha graft that I did on 7/14/2015. I removed the the grafting tape this morning. Maha is growing strong while the Indian Alampur grafted at the same time only has a tiny bud formed at the leave node.
(http://s16.postimg.cc/xwy2t31vl/IMG_0450.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/xwy2t31vl/)
A closeup at the graft union showing a smooth and matching size of the join. I don't know if I had cut the wedge too long, or if other areas need improvement? I had one LZ graft failed and after looking at the dead scion, I thought I might had cut the scion wedge too thin.
(http://s2.postimg.cc/rqmv6zefp/IMG_0451.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/rqmv6zefp/)
Reading Simon's post about drooping mango trees from FL, I'd like to post photo of my Alampur. I's a very slow growing tree due to pushing out many flower this year. Most of the branches have harden with less green color. There are some new flush near the ground but above graft point. Should I cut off those long drooping branches to force new growth at the top and vertical, or what should I do?
Thanks,
Sapote
(http://s23.postimg.cc/y2wh613fb/IMG_0449.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/y2wh613fb/)
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Sapote, congratulations on the grafts that took. I often shave my scions pretty thin but they still seem to take as long as the rootstock is vigorous. As far as your droopy plant, I'm not exactly sure what should be done. You could stake it up and hope the branch will thicken up and be able to hold the weight of the leaves, branches, flowers and fruit or you could try pruning but there is no guarantee the new growth will not be droopy.
I resorted to abandoning my Florida grafted plants and instead grafted my favorite varieties onto Manilla rootstock or created new replacement Double Stone Grafted trees.
Simon
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I just did 3 of these types of grafts with mangosteen onto G. Xanthochymus. The grafts are not even a week old though so it will be a while before I know anything. The sizes matched up great though. Hoping one of them takes at least.
Jsvand5, please keep us updated on the progress of these trees. Did you try and DSGed Mongosteen on its own rootstock?
Simon
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Simon -- one more question for you. I know when you've done double stone grafts you've aimed to do them in the copper-leaf stage, when the energy is coming from the seed. But what if I do it after that stage, when some growth has hardened off and there is a new flush -- will that still work?
I ask because the ones I am growing in the ground are slightly different sizes, and a copper-leaf stage graft won't work, but things grow slowly here so my best bet will probably be in spring (I have them in a makeshift "greenhouse" in the ground -- plastic wrap around some chicken wire). At that time I'd guess they'll be about 1-2 feet tall, and I plan to tie two neighboring seedlings together and graft a single scion onto them. Would it be best to wait until there's a new growth flush and graft onto that, or to graft onto hardened off wood?
I figure there's nothing really different about doing it after the copper leaf stage except that the plants are not fueled by their seeds and that new growth heals faster. Is that roughly right?
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I just did 3 of these types of grafts with mangosteen onto G. Xanthochymus. The grafts are not even a week old though so it will be a while before I know anything. The sizes matched up great though. Hoping one of them takes at least.
Jsvand5, please keep us updated on the progress of these trees. Did you try and DSGed Mongosteen on its own rootstock?
Simon
Didn't try it on its own root stock. All of my rootstocks were too thick. I should have brought back some seeds for later but I didn't feel like cleaning a bunch of seeds this trip.
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Simon -- one more question for you. I know when you've done double stone grafts you've aimed to do them in the copper-leaf stage, when the energy is coming from the seed. But what if I do it after that stage, when some growth has hardened off and there is a new flush -- will that still work?
I ask because the ones I am growing in the ground are slightly different sizes, and a copper-leaf stage graft won't work, but things grow slowly here so my best bet will probably be in spring (I have them in a makeshift "greenhouse" in the ground -- plastic wrap around some chicken wire). At that time I'd guess they'll be about 1-2 feet tall, and I plan to tie two neighboring seedlings together and graft a single scion onto them. Would it be best to wait until there's a new growth flush and graft onto that, or to graft onto hardened off wood?
I figure there's nothing really different about doing it after the copper leaf stage except that the plants are not fueled by their seeds and that new growth heals faster. Is that roughly right?
Sorry Barath, I just saw your question. I have a couple seedlings in the hardened green leaf stage that I'm about to try this on so I'll keep you updated. When I do the DSG in the copper leaf stage, I cut below the lowest leaves so there are zero leaves left behind. This has the benefit of inhibiting growth from the rootstock in the future.
If you want to DSG with seedlings in the green leaf stage, you will probably need to leave some nurse leaves behind to supply energy. The more leaves you leave behind, the more energy can be produced and you will probably get quicker healing of the Union. The problem is that you will have a much higher likely hood of have to remove sprouts from the rootstock in the future.
Simon
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Simon -- sounds great. I tried a couple of DSGs today (past the copper leaf stage). I'll update if/when they take.
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A thing of beauty----two weeks old and pushing nicely---Maha scion on DSG Turpentine root stock. Will be interesting to watch if fantastic growth rate continues.
(http://s8.postimg.cc/kfxehgk29/20150830_152908.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/kfxehgk29/)
(http://s8.postimg.cc/ia33myglt/20150830_152933.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/ia33myglt/)
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That is awesome progress Robdallek! I'm so glad someone from Florida is trying the DSG out. I'm eager to see if you will get smaller stature of the tree in general which will mean less pruning and easier harvesting. The growth rate of my DSGed trees is incredible and initially seems to also increase the rate of growth of slower growing varieties such as Nam Doc Mai.
I have a NDM grafted onto Lavern Manilla rootstock which is a great rootstock for SoCal but slower growing varieties like NDM are still slow growing when grafted onto good rootstocks here in SoCal. My NDM on Manilla rootstock only has one growth flush a year, it appears to grow only in the hottest parts of Summer. My NDM on DSG, grafted about two months ago, is on its second flush already. I'll post pics within a week.
Simon
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Yes let's keep pictures going on this and monitor progress. I will try to do every 30 days.
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Here is my original DSGed Lemon Zest that was grafted on 06/19/15 and planted into the ground on 07/10/15 so it has been in the ground just under two months. It's new flush of leaves shrugged off temps up to 104F and a couple days in the 100+F without any noticeable burn to the leaves. The current flush is just starting to harden. These pictures were taken a couple days ago. I'll update with pictures about once a month or whenever there is new growth so that people can track growth spurts.
Edited to correct date, planted into ground July 10 not July 2.
Simon
(http://s24.postimg.cc/vlr0dcr41/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/vlr0dcr41/)
(http://s24.postimg.cc/tfwpiunnl/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/tfwpiunnl/)
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LZ is a fast grower but that is truly impressive for less than 60 days. I need some more seeds now!
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Yes, Lemon Zest is one of the fastest growers I've seen here in SoCal, it grows faster than Valencia Pride. Nam Doc Mai on the other hand is relatively slow growing for me but it also shows accelerated growth on Double Stone Grafted rootstock. This NDM was grafted on 06/19/15 and was planted into the ground on 07/16/15 so it's been in the ground for about one and a half months and is currently expanding its leaves on its second flush since grafting.
My NDM on Manilla rootstock only had one flush all of last year and hasn't done anything this year, yet. I would like to try Ice Cream and Julie on DSG because they can be difficult to grow but I feel there are better new varieties that I would rather grow. Here's a pic of my NDM in ground 1.5 months.
Simon
(http://s23.postimg.cc/x94cdnc5z/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/x94cdnc5z/)
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Update without photos: Maha, Okrung tong, Vietnames Cac-hoa-loc, Indian Alampur, and LZ were grafted on single HD Manila. The recently grafted LZ is pushing first flush. Fastest grow is Maha, then Cac-hoa-loc, Okrung Tong all have 2nd flush, but Alampur has not even formed a bud. The scion is green fine, but nothing come out yet. It seems I may have an issue of Alampur and Manila root stock compatibility. Anyone have experience with Alampur?
Sapote
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Simon here is my stone grafts updates
sweet tart on edgar rootstock, not growing, it was the first one that pushed.
(http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y470/socal10b/IMG_20150902_134528_zpsk8i1zmqt.jpg) (http://s1276.photobucket.com/user/socal10b/media/IMG_20150902_134528_zpsk8i1zmqt.jpg.html)
Sweet tart on valcarrie exploded, maybe it has to do with the extra leaf
(http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y470/socal10b/IMG_20150902_134505_zpsklbyslls.jpg) (http://s1276.photobucket.com/user/socal10b/media/IMG_20150902_134505_zpsklbyslls.jpg.html)
Lastly, i grafted a tiny lz scion onto a 6 months ataulfo on 8/19/15, it is growing crazy. I left my graft in full sun without covering, the growth is amazing. It will go into the ground this weekend.
(http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y470/socal10b/IMG_20150902_134553_zps4dog9pmt.jpg) (http://s1276.photobucket.com/user/socal10b/media/IMG_20150902_134553_zps4dog9pmt.jpg.html)
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Nice update Sapote, the nurse leaf really seems to help. Just be sure to immediately remove any sprouts from the leaf axials. Your grafting success seems pretty good so you should definitely try the Double Stone Graft. I feel the Double Stone Grafts are easier than the single Stone Grafts because you have double the sap flow.
I want to use this thread to focus on the Double Stone Grafts so we don't get side tracked. I feel that a lot more people will be using this technique I learned from Shramajeevi's videos after I show them the wonderful growth I've been getting with this technique.
I'm hoping that I will also get really good production and less tendency for alternate bearing. I also believe this technique will help with the extremely droopy growth habit we get from Florida grafted Mango trees.
I feel that even gardeners in Florida and other Mango growing regions can benefit from this technique as two root systems with fully intact tap roots should theoretically increase the rootzone of the tree which may help better utilize water during a drought and also help to anchor plants from being blown over during storms. The reported smaller stature of the fruit bearing trees may also decrease labor costs by not requiring as much pruning and the smaller stature of the trees may not require equipment to harvest the fruit.
This is all just a daydream for now until I can have some evidence to prove or disprove these claims. I think that multiple rootstock technology is relevant to this thread so please feel free to post regarding DSGing and multiple rootstock technology. I'm especially interested in documented cases of multiple rootstock trees proving or disproving any of the claims I made above.
Simon
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Here is a quick update of a Double Greenwood or Greenleaf stage graft. It is my take on the DSG except that it uses more mature seedlings with green wood or are in the green leaf stage. The seedlings I used for this graft have been in the green leaf stage for several months and was in the second flush of growth.
The rootstock is one Kent seedling and one Poly embryonic Manilla(Champaign) seedling. The poly seed had several sprouts coming out and I clipped all of them except for the strongest one. The poly seedling is about 1-2 months older than the Kent seedling but it is still thinner in diameter and overall size.
The point of using one poly and one mono seedling is my hope that each rootstock will impart special characteristics that will help the tree survive adverse conditions. One rootstock may be better adapted to up taking nutrients in high pH soils and the other may be slightly better up taking nutrients in lower pH soils. I have also read somewhere that poly rootstocks may be more resistant to Anthracnose where as Mono rootstocks may have better resistance to Powdery mildew( I may have these reversed?). I am being overly simplistic in these assumptions and I'm sure there are specific Mono and Poly rootstocks that may have special known attributes but I've got to start somewhere.
Anyways, here is a Sweet Tart scion grafted onto two greenwood/green leaf stage rootstocks. The scion was grafted 11 days ago and pushed about 1-2 days ago. I have much better success when I leave several nurse leaves. I've tried single rootstock epicotyl grafting with and without nurse leaves and they both work but I get higher success with nurse leaves.
Simon
(http://s10.postimg.cc/ydyydhrlx/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/ydyydhrlx/)
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Here's a Dupius Saigon on DSG. This was also grafted 11 days ago and pushed about 3 days ago.
Simon
(http://s7.postimg.cc/zf8xuxd5j/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/zf8xuxd5j/)
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here is a Sweet Tart scion grafted onto two greenwood/green leaf stage rootstocks. The scion was grafted 11 days ago and pushed about 1-2 days ago.
Simon
(http://s10.postimg.cc/ydyydhrlx/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/ydyydhrlx/)
Simon, my LZ from you pushed but only about half of your in photo. I wonder is it due to 3, 4 days in transportation?
Mono + poly root stock = interesting ;D
sapote
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Sapote, it's probably because of rootstock vigor or cambium contact between scion and rootstock. A vigorous rootstock that is pushing or ready to push new growth works well for me. I avoid using weak seedlings. Also, if your Union has not completely healed, there will not be as much sap to push the new growth.
I like using double rootstocks because I feel I get double the sap to push new growth. I forget, was your rootstock single or double? Also what rootstock did you use?
I will soon be starting my experiments with triple+ rootstocks on certain varieties like Ice Cream and perhaps Julie. I want to see how fast I can get a giant tree. I want a triple rootstock Ice Cream tree as big as this single rootstock tree in Leo's backyard here in San Diego but I want to get to that size ASAP.
People say you can't buy time but with multiple rootstock technology, I believe you can. This technology can be transformative for hobbyists and the Agriculture industry growing fruit such as Lychee, Mango, Cherimoya, Jaboticaba, Garcinias, etc... Pretty much any fruit tree that has a long juvenile period or are prone to low or alternate bearing can benefit from this old technology revisited.
Simon
(http://s9.postimg.cc/t0ztpcwyz/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/t0ztpcwyz/)
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Simon,
Root stock is a 4 years old top work La Verne manila, the same one I had other varieties grafted on it. I see the union is healthy and healed. The terminal shoot is skinny and weak but there are other surrounding buds are coming.
On your double triple rootstock, I wonder are the tap root moving away from each other or competing in the same spot. To settle this question you must be ready to dig the giant tree up and post us some photos ;D
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Lol Sapote, Lemon Zest is a vigorous upright grower so the initial push can look thin until the leaves start expanding. Your Lemon Zest will dominate if you multigrafted your tree but you will be very happy with the fruit. It is one of my favorites.
I believe the tap roots will act individually and grow straight down until they encounter an obstacle that will send them on an alternate route. I'm not sure if there are chemical signals released by Mango roots which deter the growth of other nearby roots? I've added additional links with good information on the first post of this thread.
Simon
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"I'm not sure if there are chemical signals released by Mango roots which deter the growth of other nearby roots?"
Simon, my guess is the tap roots have no chemical weapons but they will seek for nutrient and moisture, and so with too many roots in the area they eventually will spread out for good food. The result of Natural Selection in billion years
Sapote
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Maha DSG now about 4 1/2 weeks old grafted Aug 16. Doing nicely
(http://s27.postimg.cc/4k9hh3mfj/20150919_082330.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/4k9hh3mfj/)
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That's awesome growth Robdallek. Do you plan on keeping it in a pot or is it going into the ground? For my DSGed trees I want in the ground, I try to plant them ASAP as the tap root is usually at the bottom of my 12 inch tall pots when the scion pushes. There is no rootball to hold the soil together so everything just collapses but the tree just shrugs it off probably because it's still pulling energy from the stone.
For myDSG trees that I intend to keep potted, I plan on putting them in pots painted with MicroKote in order to avoid encircling roots. http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=3239.0. (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=3239.0.)
Simon
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Yes I was reading on the Microkote this morning and may go ahead and get a larger, treated pot.
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Here are a few more Double Stone Grafted plants that started pushing 1-2 weeks ago. They were all grafted on 09/03/15. One of the Sweet Tarts is on Double Greenwood Graft and it seems to work just as well as DSG but I will have to keep an eye on sprouts from the rootstock. I also have a DOT on DSG that is pushing but I didn't take a picture. Big thanks to Squam for the scion!
Simon
(http://s22.postimg.cc/rb397ly31/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/rb397ly31/)
(http://s22.postimg.cc/3vgqoioy5/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/3vgqoioy5/)
(http://s22.postimg.cc/46y71a5e5/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/46y71a5e5/)
(http://s22.postimg.cc/qhm2192od/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/qhm2192od/)
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I just planted these DSGed trees into the ground. One is a Dot and the other is Dupuis Saigon. I decided to plant both trees into one hole as I'm out of space and I'm very curious about how well these trees will perform after they grow into each other. I want a big Mango tree, if these two trees approach graft themselves, they will have 4 rootstocks. I know I better be careful of what I wish for, lol, but I'm tired of my tiny droopy mango trees. Both these trees were grafted on 09/03/15 and planted into the ground today 09/28/15. I just hope they have enough time to establish before the frost hits!
Simon
(http://s4.postimg.cc/os5rhu3q1/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/os5rhu3q1/)
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Here are a few more Double Stone Grafted trees that were grafted on 09/18/15 and are just starting to push out of the parafilm. I'm really excited to see how Julie will perform on Double rootstocks. I really like the unique flavor of Julie but worry about her slow growth habit and susceptibility to disease. I'll probably keep her in a pot coated with MicroKote.
Julie
(http://s18.postimg.cc/w5vsthxr9/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/w5vsthxr9/)
Venus
(http://s17.postimg.cc/vnmjnj6iz/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/vnmjnj6iz/)
Gary
(http://s3.postimg.cc/hsgu2eafj/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/hsgu2eafj/)
Another Venus
(http://s4.postimg.cc/a7fyewaxl/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/a7fyewaxl/)
Simon
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Hi Simon we have to Crown u King of Dougra, nice pics. keep them coming, looks like u are very successful with the stone grafting, I just did my first one , also u are using Parafilm, with great success wow considering everybody swears by Buddy tape, goes to show when you are good u are good.
Carlos O
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Thanks Carlos, but you are giving me too much credit. This forum has helped me learn so much. A few important things I've learned regarding grafting is that fresh scions in the proper stage of growth is critical. The scion should have several buds that are swollen but not pushing. If there are no scions, you can clip leaves off the scion when it is still attached to the tree and wait until you see buds forming before harvesting.
Another important consideration is healthy vigorous rootstock that is ready to push. For Double Stone Grafting, I get excellent results when I use seedlings in the copper leaf stage. If the seedling is overly mature and has green leaves, I graft leaving a couple nurse leaves to supply energy. I have found that seedlings of monoembryonic seeds are almost always extremely vigorous because they get their energy from the seed itself. Some mono seeds are small and I avoid these. I like to use large seeds from mono embryonic mangos.
For my DSGs with one Mono one Poly seedling, i always use a much older poly seedling because I find they grow slower for me, probably because by definition the poly seed has to share the stored energy from the seed with multiple sprouts.
Other serious considerations are very warm soil and amount of sunlight or artificial light. I've noticed that my seedlings took much quicker when soil temps, in my pots, were about 90 degrees or perhaps even warmer. i have seedling heat mats with thermostats to give bottom heat and I also put my DSGs under about 16-18 hours of artificial T5 lights.
I'm very eager to see if your graft takes and if it does, how well it performs for you in Florida. I know Mango trees already grow huge in Florida but there are reports of possible stunting effects of multiple rootstock trees and the increased production reports can't hurt either. Good luck and please keep us updated!
Simon
Simon
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Simon, I'm curious how you've handled poly seeds that send up multiple shoots.
One of the DSGs I did last month was perhaps not a true "double" graft, because the poly seed sent up two shoots and I did the double graft on both of those. (I assume the two shoots were from two different embryos.)
When you've done a DSG with one poly and one mono, how do you select which of possibly multiple poly shoots to use?
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Hey Barath, when I plant poly seeds, I keep the largest strongest shoot and cut off the rest at soil level. This way I'm left with only one of the poly seedlings. I plant my Manilla/Ataulfo/Champaigne seedlings earlier in the year because they tend to grow slower for for me. This works out perfectly because the Kents and Keitts tend to show up later in the year.
My DSGs with Poly seedlings were all in the green leaf stage, I may have done one with slightly copper leaves. Because I use more mature poly seedlings with green leaves, I tend to leave a couple nurse leaves. It may not be necessary to leave nurse leaves if your other seedling is in the copper leaf stage. Let me know next time you're down here and if I have extra seedlings, I can show you the graft.
Simon
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Simon -- awesome, thanks!
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Here are a few more Double Stone Grafts that popped out of the parafilm today. Two Venus and a Gary. These were all grafted on 09/18/15. I put them into full sun as soon as they bust out of the parafilm.
Simon
(http://s22.postimg.cc/afko7a465/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/afko7a465/)
(http://s22.postimg.cc/l14jjaahp/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/l14jjaahp/)
(http://s22.postimg.cc/4ouhtjw65/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/4ouhtjw65/)
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Simon
I have to admire your enthusiasm with this project. Not to pigeon hole your many talents, but I propose to rename you DSG.
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Thanks Future!
You are partial contributor to all this! After tasting that Gary Mango that you brought to the Mango tasting, I had to add that variety to my Double Stone Graft lineup. It was so sweet, smooth and creamy that I can still remember the taste.
Future, you know what's going to happen if you rename me to DSG right? I will start my Triple Rootstock experiments and will have to be renamed TSG!
Here is another DSG that was grafted on 09/18/15 and just pushed out today. I believe it was very slow to push because there weren't any buds pushed out when I grafted the scion. This variety is Jumbo Kesar. I DSGed two trees but only one has pushed out so far.
Simon
(http://s7.postimg.cc/q4pc6d2dz/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/q4pc6d2dz/)
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"A few important things I've learned regarding grafting is that fresh scions in the proper stage of growth is critical."
Hi Simon, you're absolutely right about the important of fresh scion. Here is the latest photo of your LZ that was shipped on July 31 and grafted 3 or 4 days later. This took over 2 months to push out a first flush as compare to fresh scion grafted in same day and new flush in about 20 days.
Two out of four grafts survived. the second smaller one have not pushed yet but it's still green with buds.
(http://s29.postimg.cc/i6n8yf183/IMG_0954.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/i6n8yf183/)
Thanks,
Brian
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Yup, fresh and properly prepped is key. I find that they push much faster if the buds are nice and large but has not leafed out yet. It's great you got some success, Lemin Zest is an extremely vigorous variety so you should have plenty more scions in the future. The weather will be cooling next week so it should start taking longer for scions to push.
Simon
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A few important things I've learned regarding grafting is that fresh scions in the proper stage of growth is critical. The scion should have several buds that are swollen but not pushing.
That's funny because, I would say exactly the same regarding rootstock. To me is way easier, so far, to graft dormant scion on pushing rootstock, than the countrary. Invariably, in about a couple of weeks, the scions pushes (if it has taken). It never pushes if it hasn't. I have been surprised when some folks reported that some of their failed graft did push anyway; with mine it never happens, maybe because my scions weren't pushin in first place when i did prepare them.
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I've had a few instances where a scion pushed really fast, maybe 7 days after grafting, only to have the new leaves wither and eventually die. I've also encountered a few instances where the graft pushes, small leaves form and then withered and then a different bud on the same scion begins to push. There are so many variables to consider, especially if the scions are taken from someone else's trees.
My original DSGed Lemon Zest is beginning its third flush in less than three months since planting into the ground. I'll update in about a week when it turns three months in ground.
Simon
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Here's a 3 month, since planted into the ground, update of my Lemon Zest. It is currently on its third flush and this flush has four branches coming out. We got to 106F today and the new growth doesn't look too happy. Good news is that the union has healed over nicely and the trunk has noticeably expanded in girth.
Simon
(http://s4.postimg.cc/h76vgtwm1/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/h76vgtwm1/)
(http://s4.postimg.cc/c79f8vqzd/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/c79f8vqzd/)
(http://s4.postimg.cc/6ukkur32x/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/6ukkur32x/)
(http://s4.postimg.cc/uka0jg1g9/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/uka0jg1g9/)
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Nice simon, do u remember what rootstocks u used?
I grafted a tiny lz scion onto a single small ataulfo, it is flushing the second time within 2 months. Not bad on a single rootstock. Maybe lz will grow on anything other than turpentine rootstock in socal?
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This three is on double Kent seedling rootstock but I am testing out several different combinations of rootstocks. Kent seedlings make great rootstocks for Double Stone Grafting because they have strong vigorous growth as a seedling and Kent Mango seeds often have partially opened seed husks which makes it easier for seed extraction. Some varieties, Bombay for example, are extremely difficult to remove from the seed husk.
Simon
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Thanks Future!
You are partial contributor to all this! After tasting that Gary Mango that you brought to the Mango tasting, I had to add that variety to my Double Stone Graft lineup. It was so sweet, smooth and creamy that I can still remember the taste.
Future, you know what's going to happen if you rename me to DSG right? I will start my Triple Rootstock experiments and will have to be renamed TSG!
Here is another DSG that was grafted on 09/18/15 and just pushed out today. I believe it was very slow to push because there weren't any buds pushed out when I grafted the scion. This variety is Jumbo Kesar. I DSGed two trees but only one has pushed out so far.
Simon
(http://s7.postimg.cc/q4pc6d2dz/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/q4pc6d2dz/)
I have a solution: xSG!
Covers all present and future possibilities!
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This three is on double Kent seedling rootstock but I am testing out several different combinations of rootstocks. Kent seedlings make great rootstocks for Double Stone Grafting because they have strong vigorous growth as a seedling and Kent Mango seeds often have partially opened seed husks which makes it easier for seed extraction. Some varieties, Bombay for example, are extremely difficult to remove from the seed husk.
Simon
I'm jealous Simon.
Have you tried Haden seedlings? Only one that's done well in my dirt.
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Future, I like it, sounds like a model for a car. This graft is relatively easy to perform and I hope others will try and have similar success.
Shane, I have DSGs on Haden, Tommy Atkins, Keitt, Kent, Valencia Pride, Glenn, Malika, Carrie, Manilla, Glenn and a few other rootstocks. I am most optimistic about using one Mono and one Poly seedling for better adaptation to different soil conditions and for resistance to diseases. Ideally, one of the rootstocks will be a native variety that grows locally so that it is already at a genetic advantage to the local diseases.
The more I research Mangos, the more I'm finding out there is no one single rootstock, pruning technique or variety that does well everywhere. I'm learning that we have to be dynamic and assess each growing site individually and ask ourselves what our ultimate goal is.
Shane, do you have any Mangos on La Vern Manilla rootstock? This rootstock generally performs well for us here in SoCal.
Simon
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I don't. The only thing I have in the ground is LZ from POG, presumably on turpentine, and a seedling Haden.
I had a dozen Ataulfo and 8 Kent seedlings in the ground but I ended up pulling them after a year of no activity. Only the lone Haden flushed and grew.
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Here is a quick update of my DSG Sweet Tart and Jumbo Kesar. They both went into the ground today.
(http://s14.postimg.cc/ra2s8xpzx/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/ra2s8xpzx/)
(http://s14.postimg.cc/jg26nji71/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/jg26nji71/)
(http://s14.postimg.cc/tountd68t/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/tountd68t/)
(http://s14.postimg.cc/mkcukbyzh/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/mkcukbyzh/)
Simon
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Here are a few updates on some of my DSGed Mangos. The temps have dropped as low as 38F so the plants aren't doing much. My DSGed Nam Doc Mai appears to have a partial bloom forming.
NDM
(http://s10.postimg.cc/crsjbz6lh/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/crsjbz6lh/)
Julie
(http://s23.postimg.cc/d2hn4jlxj/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/d2hn4jlxj/)
DOT
(http://s1.postimg.cc/ihosm4u3f/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/ihosm4u3f/)
Jumbo Kesar
(http://s28.postimg.cc/8tuu7x7cp/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/8tuu7x7cp/)
Lemon Zest
(http://s23.postimg.cc/bigwjw2x3/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/bigwjw2x3/)
Sweet Tart
(http://s9.postimg.cc/ot1y0ekq3/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/ot1y0ekq3/)
Simon
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Simon great pics and great work you are doing on DSG. Keep us updated on growth next year please. I am going to try this next year planting mango seeds next year and grafting .
I appreciate your updates and enthusiasm. I think you are onto something good. Keep it up brother!
Mike in Phoenix
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Thanks for your support Mike!
I just wanted to one last update for 2015. It has been raining on and off for the last several weeks and temps may reach freezing on Saturday. All the DSGed Mango trees at my house are starting to push new growth, not sure if it's vegetative or flowers s the growth is just starting to push.
DOT
(http://s21.postimg.cc/nx6zn09f7/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/nx6zn09f7/)
(http://s21.postimg.cc/w1f3rqvub/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/w1f3rqvub/)
Julie
(http://s11.postimg.cc/ul9lwqmbj/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/ul9lwqmbj/)
(http://s11.postimg.cc/ntj6tvxbz/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/ntj6tvxbz/)
Sweet Tart
(http://s22.postimg.cc/fxueqnagt/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/fxueqnagt/)
(http://s22.postimg.cc/9vms05m0t/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/9vms05m0t/)
Simon
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I have also noticed that Double Stone Grafting changes the shape of the leaves on most varieties I have put on DSG. When put on DSG, the leaves are longer, narrow and more pointed. The leaves also have more of a wavy appearance similar to Lemon Zest leaves although the ripples are smaller.
Mango varieties put on Double Greenwood Graft(leaves past copper leaf stage) do not appear to display this difference in the morphology of the leaves. For example, take a look at my Julie on Double Greenwoid Graft, the leaves are still wide and not long. I'm not exactly sure what is causing this but I'm assuming it's due to hormones from the seed as the Double Stone Grafting technique utilizes seedlings in the copper leaf stage and these seedlings still draw energy from the stone(seed). The Double Greenwood graft utilizes seedlings in the green leaf stage and does not(perhaps minimally) draw energy from the stone. I repeat, Mango varieties grafted with Double Greenwood Graft does not display the elongated narrow leaves.
DOT grafted onto single rootstock multigrafted Turpentine(Florida rootstock) tree. I should also mention that this DOT graft has Lemon Zest as an inter stock. The leaves are about 5-6 inches long.
(http://s8.postimg.cc/3m6cvpj9t/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/3m6cvpj9t/)
Here is DOT on DSG, the leaves are about double the length of the leaf above. Both these DOT grafts were grafted on the same day.
(http://s17.postimg.cc/67il62at7/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/67il62at7/)
Simon
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So my DSGed Nam Doc Mai is definitely flowering. I'm going to remove any fruit that hold for at least the first couple years.
I also visited my mother in laws house so I was able to check up on the DSGed Lemon Zest I planted for them. In the Winter, this tree does not get any direct sunlight but unlike in my yard, the soil over here is sandy and has excellent drainage. I've definitely noticed that Mango trees planted in heavy clay, like I have at my house, does not grow as rapidly as trees planted in well draining soil. Once this tree reaches about 5 feet, it will be able to escape the shadow of the house and nearby trees so it should fruit well once it reaches maturity.
NDM flowers
(http://s10.postimg.cc/mi0yp0985/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/mi0yp0985/)
(http://s10.postimg.cc/olbdwo911/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/olbdwo911/)
Lemon Zest planted at in laws house
(http://s16.postimg.cc/wdvsrasdt/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/wdvsrasdt/)
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Simon, I've found something interesting with my DSG grafted mangos. I did a big batch of mango grafts, both single and double rootstock, back at the end of summer. The single rootstock grafts started pushing within a few weeks or so. The double rootstock grafts didn't, but they didn't die either. And I was just checking on some of them, and they are *now* pushing, something like 6 months later. It's really strange...
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Simon, I've found something interesting with my DSG grafted mangos. I did a big batch of mango grafts, both single and double rootstock, back at the end of summer. The single rootstock grafts started pushing within a few weeks or so. The double rootstock grafts didn't, but they didn't die either. And I was just checking on some of them, and they are *now* pushing, something like 6 months later. It's really strange...
Barath
That's normal. Now that we are heating up to 80's and 90 my October and November are pushing and some bloom.
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JF is right on. I have a couple DSG plants that were grafted on 9/16/15 that for some reason decided to remain dormant until recently. Thinking back, I recall that I got delayed pushes from scions that did not have swollen buds. I also got delayed pushes on DSGed trees that were grafted onto less vigorous rootstocks.
My DSGed trees on vigorous mono rootstocks pushed with the most vigor. DSGed trees on double Polyembryonic rootstocks pushed with the least vigor unless I left nurse leaves. Combinations with one Mono and one Poly seedling seemed intermediate.
Here is a Gary DSG that is just starting to push
(http://s2.postimg.cc/wjnf76n51/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/wjnf76n51/)
A DSG that stalls and is left outside in frost condition will die. I've had a couple nights of frost already but my in ground DSGs that I planted last year have all survived the frost with damage only showing on newly emerged vegetative and floral growths. Hardened vegetative growth showed no signs of frost damage. Here is a pic of the frost on my truck last Tuesday morning.
(http://s15.postimg.cc/p7kkn3xpz/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/p7kkn3xpz/)
Simon
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Here is a fully stalled DSG. It is a Jumbo Kesar with no swollen buds. It was grafted on my "B" grade seedlings, seedlings that showed less vigor or the taproot was partially broken off. It was grafted in September of last year and has not pushed. If I bring it outside during warm weather, it will likely flush but I'm going to leave it in my garage under artificial light because I'm tired of moving my experiments in and out of the garage whenever we get frost.
You can stimulate growth of stalled scions by drenching with dilute fertilizer and bottom heat around 90+F.
I have a few DSGs that were stalled but pushed growth in December when I used this treatment. Bottom heat at this high temperature is costly however. DSGed Jumbo Kesar with delayed growth:
(http://s12.postimg.cc/bn2m0vkuh/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/bn2m0vkuh/)
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Frank, I agree about the heat, though the single vs. double rootstock mangos were in the same environment (indoors) -- in this case the double rootstock grafts didn't push during the winter whereas the single rootstock grafts did.
Simon, that's very interesting on two counts! I'm surprised to hear that you also see your double rootstock mangos take their time to push -- I do think at least one of mine are double polyembryonic, so that could be it. (I'm honestly shocked that it survived for 6 months without dying -- I've never had an Avocado graft that hangs on for nearly that long without either pushing or dying.)
I'm also surprised you got frost as recently as a week ago. We've been lucky here this winter and haven't had any frost.
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Simon, what sort of growth rates have you seen with a cultivar on double mono rootstock vs. that same cultivar on La Verne Manila rootstock? I'm curious whether the DSGs that push slowly eventually overtake the ones on La Verne Manila rootstock, or whether you have to go up to triple or even higher levels to beat La Verne Manila as a rootstock here in California.
I ask because until this past week when I noticed this on my DSG mangos, I didn't realize that DSG can be much slower to push than single rootstock grafts -- I'm trying to decide whether it's worth continuing to do double grafts, or whether I should plan on triple or just to give up and go with La Verne.
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Hey Barath,
Let me clarify things. In general, my DSGed trees are growing at about double the rate of single rootstock grafted trees. My DSGed trees are growing so well that I have given away most of my single grafted trees except those on Lavern Manilla rootstock. The very few DSGed trees that did not immediately push are probably only about 5-10% out of all my DSGed trees and it was likely attributed to being grafted on weaker seedlings or seedlings with broken roots.
it is difficult to compare the growth rate of DSGed trees to trees grafted onto Lavern Manilla rootstock because of the difference in age of the trees. My Lavern Manilla rootstocks are usually purchased saplings that are approx 4 feet tall so I assume they are approx 1 year old. My DSGed trees are literally grafted onto seedlings that just sprouted so it would not be comparing apples to apples.
I do have several experiments to compare the growth rate of my DSGed trees to trees grafted onto Lavern Manilla rootstock so I should have more information this year.
I highly recommend the use of Lavern Manilla rootstock for growing Mango in Southern California as it is a tried and proven rootstock here.
The jury is still out on the various seedling rootstocks I used but Leo Manuel has most of his huge Mango trees on seedling rootstocks and they grow with much vigor and high production. All the research I have found so far indicates that two seedling rootstocks only increases yields and vigor but we will never find out for sure if we do not test it out.
Simon
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Barath, if you look back at the start of this thread, you can follow the first DSGed Lemon Zest that was grafted in June. It took less than two weeks to push and flushed multiple times before the end of the year. The frost has killed back some of the newer growth but the trunk now in February of 2016 is about 1 inch wide already. Also note that I have the absolute worst soil for growing mango, solid clay and rocks. Here is a picture of the trunk of my original DSGed Lemon Zest.
(http://s15.postimg.cc/x9lpv0z93/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/x9lpv0z93/)
Barath, I would keep up with both your single and DSGed trees. We need more data points. If the majority of your DSGed trees are slower in growth than your single rootstock trees, there is probably an issue. One of the seedlings may be injured and can die. DSGed trees should grow at about twice the rate of single rootstock trees.
Something to consider is the timing of your grafts in order to maximize the amount of time the grafted trees get to grow during the hottest months here in SoCal. Lookin back on this thread, I grafted in June but knowing what I know now, I'm going to start grafting in April this year if possible. The major issue with grafting this early in the year is that many trees still have blooms or fruit holding so scions will be difficult to obtain.
It would be great if everyone testing out DSG can post the good and bad of your experiments so that we can all learn together and determine if this technology truely is the next transformative advancement for backyard Mango growing enthusiasts.
In case anyone is interested, I am also working on multiple rootstock technology on Jaboticaba and Lychee with Lucs Mexican Mangosteen in the near future.
Simon
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Awesome. Great data points and suggestions. Thanks Simon!
I do think my DSGs were probably weaker than the ones you've been growing because they're in pots and are mostly polyembryonic seedlings. I did plant a few mono seeds -- unfortunately they seem more frost sensitive -- I was hoping to do a DSG experiment here with direct-seeded rootstocks that were growing in the ground nicely at the local 7-11 parking lot, but those Keitt seedlings got fried even above 32 F (probably around 35 F). I'll try again soon and build a better temporary greenhouse for them when I do.
I wonder what would happen if we were to plant the same seeds that La Verne uses, but then DSG with them. I'm letting one of my La Verne trees grow out in the hopes that it'll fruit soon and produce seeds that are good to use as rootstock in this way.
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Barath, did you plant the polyembryonic and monoembryonic seeds at the same time, in the same soil and pretty much the same conditions? Your observation that the Monoembryonic seedlings appear to be more cold sensitive can be very useful for selecting rootstocks. I have not not noticed that any particular seedling type is more or less cold sensitive. Is your poly seedlings from Champaigne/Ataulfo/Manilla?
Remember that Leo Manuel has his huge mango trees on a variety of seedling rootstocks so perhaps it is not that Manilla rootstocks are necessarily better growers here in SoCal but that Florida Turpentine rootstock simply does worse.
I just got hail at my house and I'm hoping these small trees will survive so I decided to post some updates of my DSGed trees. All of my DSGed mango trees that are planted into the ground are flowering at about 12-14 inches tall. I was hoping that seedling rootstock influence would inhibit early flowering but it appears cold weather is too strong of a stimulus. I have some DSGed trees in pots in my garage where it is warmer and these are not flowering.
Simon
(http://s22.postimg.cc/uwi8w8pi5/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/uwi8w8pi5/)
(http://s22.postimg.cc/7h0bqw5r1/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/7h0bqw5r1/)
(http://s22.postimg.cc/xb5j2xgd9/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/xb5j2xgd9/)
(http://s22.postimg.cc/vuu0ksdgd/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/vuu0ksdgd/)
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Barath, did you plant the polyembryonic and monoembryonic seeds at the same time, in the same soil and pretty much the same conditions? Your observation that the Monoembryonic seedlings appear to be more cold sensitive can be very useful for selecting rootstocks. I have not not noticed that any particular seedling type is more or less cold sensitive. Is your poly seedlings from Champaigne/Ataulfo/Manilla?
Remember that Leo Manuel has his huge mango trees on a variety of seedling rootstocks so perhaps it is not that Manilla rootstocks are necessarily better growers here in SoCal but that Florida Turpentine rootstock simply does worse.
I didn't plant them at the same time in the same location, so unfortunately I don't have a side-by-side comparison. The Keitt seedlings that were in the ground at 7-11 were about a year old, and growing in a makeshift in-ground greenhouse (a cylinder of chicken wire with plastic wrap wrapped around and on top) and were growing well. The top was a little leaky so it didn't keep the cold air out completely. One block away, also on the streetside, I had planted a young La Verne 'Manila' two years ago (someone dug it up and took it a month back out of the blue). That La Verne 'Manila' didn't show any dieback in any of the cold weather we got (including a night of 30 F two winters ago), whereas 2/3 of the Keitt seedlings stems and leaves turned brown despite having protection and likely not dropping much below 35 F.
I really am wondering how we can reproduce the La Verne 'Manila' growth vigor ourselves (without having to buy trees from them as rootstock). I am letting a La Verne tree grow like crazy in a 15 gal pot in a greenhouse, hoping to get fruit from it that can be used for rootstock. I also remember reading someone mention that La Verne buys bulk mangoes from Mexico to grow their trees, and that these seeds are from a Manila-type fruit (but not Ataulfo) -- is it possible to buy these fruit at stores?
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Gary over in Palm Springs has a large, I believe Lavern Manilla that produces quite a lot of fruit. I was giving away lots of the fruit when we had a mango tasting there a couple years ago. The fruit was ok tasting but was definitely different flavored compared to the Ataulfo/Manillas we get in the Asian markets.
Simon
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Awesome thread, thanks for the inspiration! Been meaning to post some pics of these poly seedlings I planted about a month ago for DSG rootstocks. Time to start sourcing some good scionwood.
I've given each seedling as much space for their own individual root development as seems reasonable; even planted the last two in separate holes.
(http://s31.postimg.cc/mlsg4zb9z/mangodsg1.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/mlsg4zb9z/)
(http://s31.postimg.cc/z01wjgfkn/mangodsg2.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/z01wjgfkn/)
(http://s31.postimg.cc/8mx4en0t3/mangodsg3.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/8mx4en0t3/)
Here's a successful DSG DGA(Damn Good Apple) pushing some nice growth. Started pushing in less than a week from grafting.
(http://s31.postimg.cc/al9rchxhz/dsgdga1.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/al9rchxhz/)
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Paul, you seedlings look like they are doing great. Please keep us updated on the progress of these DSGs.
I have encountered one major issue with DSGed mango trees grown in cooler climates. The issue is that the grafted trees will flower and try to hold fruit the very first year because the cold weather will induce blooms. This causes an unnecessary waste of energy in producing blooms that may have otherwise gone into further vegetative growth.
I propose two new suggestions for those growing in colder climates.
1) innarch two seedling trees together and Do Not graft mature scion onto the tree until it is more established. At this point, the upper cannopy can be top worked with mature scions from a named cultivar. This technique will require a lot of work and my second suggestion may be more practical.
2) graft and grow the DSGed mango trees as explained in this thread but keep them in a pot treated with MicroKote or use an air pruning pot. Instead of immediately planting the tree into the ground, keep the tree in pots and gradually step up the pot to a larger root pruning pot. When the weather gets cold, move into a greenhouse, I use my garage and keep them under artificial lights. When they reach a decent size, perhaps in their second or third year, plant them into the ground.
This technique is also a lot of work but for those of us in colder climates, controlling the temperature or working with I grafted seedling trees is the only alternatives I see. Leo Manuel has excellent results planting seedlings into the ground, letting them establish to the point of fruit bearing and only top working trees with undesirable fruit.
I have one DSGed mango tree that I kept in my garage over the winter and it is my only tree that did not flower. Flowering is an extreme waste of resources when my goal is to achieve a large mango tree.
My next step is to remove all the fruit from my in ground DSGed trees and see if I can spur vegetative growth by increasing nitrogen levels in the leaves through foliar spraying with a Nitrogen fertilizer. I'll keep everyone updated.
Simon
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Here's another update. I decided to remove all the fruit from my DSGed trees yesterday. The fruit from my DSGed Nam Doc Mai are the largest because it was the first to flower. As you can see in the pics, there was good fruit set and the fruit were getting close to marble size. I removed about 1/2 of each panicle of flowers about one month ago due to my fear of the panicle snapping in windy weather so that is why the panicles are not the typical cone shape.
NDM
(http://s31.postimg.cc/iimmtucs7/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/iimmtucs7/)
(http://s31.postimg.cc/6x7v8e1x3/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/6x7v8e1x3/)
DOT
(http://s31.postimg.cc/4k5lfmzw7/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/4k5lfmzw7/)
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Jumbo Kesar, the last to bloom, only partial bloom
(http://s31.postimg.cc/esr6iulvb/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/esr6iulvb/)
Sweet Tart
(http://s31.postimg.cc/566ibh3cn/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/566ibh3cn/)
Simon
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Simon, just curious if you have gotten a sense through your experiences, after another winter with DSG mangos in the ground, whether mono or poly seeds are better for cold wet winter conditions here in CA (or one of each).
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Hey Barath, it has been less than one year since I performed my first DSG so they have only experienced one Winter. I have not noticed any difference in cold tolerance as all my seedlings, as far as I'm aware, survived the frost I got. I have seedlings scattered around my yard and none of them has died that I am aware of.
In terms of my DSGed trees, I got more failures on trees with one or more Manilla/polyembryonic seedling. I'm guessing that the slight increase in failure rate is caused by the noticeably weaker and thinner diameter of the trunk on the Manilla/Poly seedlings. The polyembryonic mango seedlings have the energy of the seed split between multiple sprouts so the seedlings arising from poly seeds are a bit weaker than those coming from mono seeds. This is true for Manilla/Ataulfo/Champaigne and also for Nam Doc Mai but it's not necessarily true for all poly seedlings. Kensington Pride and Lemon Zest are relatively fast growers compared to other polyembryonic varieties but still start out slower than large seeded mono varieties from my observations.
Another observation I have made is that the DSGed trees on mono rootstocks have approximately double the diameter of the trunk compared to those grafted onto poly seedlings. This may be an important consideration for those growing mango in marginal climates as the larger trunked trees may be better able to withstand cold weather better.
Simon
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Interesting - thanks!
So I guess despite how good La Verne trees seem to do here, mono seeds are the way to go...
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Appreciate the suggestions, definitely factors to consider for future reference. I still have several potted seedlings to work with as well. I might inarch one of the in-ground pairs but I'm still feeling like trying my hand with DSGs on these and seeing how things play out. Haven't had any frosts here in the last few years and there may be some variation with different microclimates. Can't the flowers be culled earlier to redirect energy back into veg before too much is wasted?
Also hoping to find some scionwood of lemon zest, sweet tart, and coconut cream since my seedlings are starting to push. Seems like most sources are on hold due to being in the fruiting stage.
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Barath, Lavern Manilla is still one of the top Mango rootstocks for SoCal because they are so uniform and they have been proven to grow well here. Leo Manuel has demonstrated that seedling trees, both mono and poly work great as a rootstock as well.
Paul, if you remove the flowers earlier, the tree will re bloom and expend even more energy. I've even tried removing g secondary blooms and my tree sent out a third bloom. The cold weather is too strong a bloom stimulus.
I can help with the LZ scions but the other varieties are too small.
Simon
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Barath, Lavern Manilla is still one of the top Mango rootstocks for SoCal because they are so uniform and they have been proven to grow well here. Leo Manuel has demonstrated that seedling trees, both mono and poly work great as a rootstock as well.
Simon
Agreed. I just wish we had a way of replicating at the hobbyist scale what La Verne is doing so that we can produce rootstocks like theirs but do things like DSG them or put them in the ground before they're rootbound, etc. To do that we need to have a source of the seeds that they use, but so far I'm not clear on where to go for that. Patrick mentioned that his La Verne tree is fruiting, but he said that it doesn't produce that many viable seeds for some reason. (I don't know whether their trees are actually polyembryonic given than they're not true Manila, nor is it clear whether they even choose the correct embryo to allow to grow when propagating.)
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Sapote, if the scion is too small, I offset the scion at a slight angle so that the scion contacts both rootstocks.
Here is quick update. I have been foliar feeding my DSGed trees with nitrogen fertilizer along with ground applications of nitrogen fertilizer in hopes of a vegetative flush but I'm still getting mixed blooms on half of my DSGed trees. I still get nightly low temperatures around 58F degrees but there is a warm up expected and nightly lows are predicted to stay above 60F for the foreseeable future.
My DSGed trees planted at other warmer locations around California have started to veg out starting about a month ago. Here's a DSGed Jumbo Kesar that is starting to get out. The fruit were removed about 2-3 weeks ago.
Simon
(https://s31.postimg.cc/8uiklaal3/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/8uiklaal3/)
(https://s31.postimg.cc/3x9ldwxzr/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3x9ldwxzr/)
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Tomorrow will be the one year anniversary of my first attempted DSG, one year from grafting, not from planting into the ground. The tree is a Lemon Zest grafted onto double Kent seedling rootstock and it was my most vigorously growing DSGed tree until it tried to push growth during a period of frost and hail. All tender new growth that pushed during this period was fried or severely stunted. After getting frozen back, this tree has not pushed a vegetative growth but the tree is currently swelling buds all over the place. Instead of growing out the canopy, this tree seems to have put all its energy on root and trunk expansion.
This tree has been in the ground for less than a year and the trunk is over one and a half inches wide! The nightly lows are expected to remain above 60F for the foreseeable future so I believe it will have a strong vegetative flush very soon. Here's a picture of the trunk.
Simon
(https://s32.postimg.cc/48la1k381/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/48la1k381/)
(https://s32.postimg.cc/8j4javxox/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/8j4javxox/)
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I just visited my inlaws house where I planted a DSGed Lemon Zest on double Indian rootstock. Their tree also pushed a gegetative growth in the winter and the central leader died back but it is growing really well below the damaged area. This tree is planted in part sun and only gets several hours of direct sunlight a day. There are seollen buds on this tree that look like they will open up very soon.
Simon
(https://s32.postimg.cc/f1nvlzb1d/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/f1nvlzb1d/)
(https://s32.postimg.cc/dnw8qobs1/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/dnw8qobs1/)
(https://s32.postimg.cc/pea6824kh/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/pea6824kh/)
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you hve become an export Simon. Now, do one for me too. pleeezzzz
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Hey Simon, I've been reading your post on DSG and I think I will be trying this soon. I'm visiting my parents in LA area and will be taking a Manila Mango tree home with me. Do have any Lemon Zest scion available? Do think the scion will last a few weeks to allow for some seeds to sprout or should I just wait and do it all together. I'll have to pug the tree at 35" tomorrow to get it in the luggage hold. Van
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I have the best success rate with my grafts when the scions are extremely fresh. I like to graft the same day I take my scions. I've had success with scions that are about 1 week old but the success rate declines. I have one Lemon Zest tree that I use for scions but it has been picked over by my friends already and the tree is just starting to push out new leaves. You can try to contact me if you are in the area and I can take a look at my tree. I do not ship plant material because I get too many requests.
Simon
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Thanks Simon. I was in SD Thurs to Sat, but I had family stuff to do. The weather was perfect last week. I'm back at my parents house in Whittier and it's 100 degrees today and they are all dying. When I get back to Tulsa tomorrow it'll be like that for me the rest of the summer.
Maybe you've already commented on this, but what is your opinion of using ataulfo and/or tommy adkins for seeds? These are probably the most accessible mangos (thus the reason for the lemon zest) for me. Van
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Tommy Atkins works great for rootstock and Ataulfo is good but initially the growth of polyembryonic rootstocks is slower from what I have observed. I've planted several hundred mono and poly seeds over the last couple years and the rate of growth of the polyembryonic seedlings( Champaigne, Ataulfo, Manilla) is approximately half that of the Monoembryonic seedlings.
In general, I neglect my seeds and I do not fertilize them so results may vary depending on the husbandry and attention given to the seedlings. The growth of the trunk is one of the major differences I've seen between mono and poly seedlings. This DSGed Gary mango is on double Champaigne rootstock and the combined trunk measures under 1/2 inch and stands at 10 1/2 inches. This DSGed Jumbo Kesar is on double Kent/Haden rootstock and it's combined trunk diameter is about 3/4 inch and it stands at 17 1/2 inches tall. This is not an apples to apples comparison because the Gary is in a pot and the Jumbo Kesar is in the ground but I have many DSGed plants and I have observed this trend. On the extreme end, my LZ on double Kent seedling is a little over 1 3/4 inches wide.
Simon
(https://s31.postimg.cc/fk7u4951z/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/fk7u4951z/)
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Here is a bed of Champaigne seedlings, notice how small the plants are and how thin the trunks are.
(https://s31.postimg.cc/6yiguvvcn/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6yiguvvcn/)
(https://s31.postimg.cc/e30a3x2lz/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/e30a3x2lz/)
Here is a Champaigne seedling from last year, it was a runt and has a crooked trunk so I did not use it for rootstock, it's approximately 7 inches tall.
(https://s31.postimg.cc/mbfdh61x3/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/mbfdh61x3/)
Here is a Keitt seedling from last year, it was a runt and had a crooked trunk so I did not use it for rootstock and its approximately twice as tall as the polyembryonic Champaigne and the Keitts trunk looks to be about double the thickness of the Champaigne.
(https://s31.postimg.cc/chilh94p3/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/chilh94p3/)
I don't want to discourage people from using polyembryonic seedlings because they may eventually catch up and there are some reports of Polyembryonic mangos having greater resistance to Anthracnose. What does better in my yard may not necessarily perform the same in your yard.
For my upcoming experiments, I plan on using triple rootstocks in an attempt to utilize the best attributes of each particular rootstock. One thing I noticed is that Lemon Zest is a fast growing polyembryonic variety that seems to be resistant to fungal diseases in my yard.
I planted a LZ seed a while back http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=12023.0 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=12023.0)
And started to lose interest for various reasons so I put it in the corner of my yard where it gets shaded by the nearby fence and I also decided to plant a bunch of Tomatos completely covering it to see how it would stand up to diseases. Well, the Tomatos eventually died out from probably Fusarium, virticillium, early and late blight but the LZ seedling is still alive. It's been completely neglected and rarely gets water but it's still alive. At one point, the LZ seedling was completely overgrown and burried under the tomato leaves.
Simon
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I don't want to discourage people from using polyembryonic seedlings because they may eventually catch up and there are some reports of Polyembryonic mangos having greater resistance to Anthracnose. What does better in my yard may not necessarily perform the same in your yard.
About this I'm still wondering how we might get our hands on Laverne-type seeds (Corriente?) to use as rootstock given its suitability to California soils. It seems their trees don't produce true to type, because I know of two folks who planted Home Depot Laverne trees that got different looking fruit (I'm not 100% sure though).
So I wonder if we can figure out where they get their seeds or get scions of their seed-producing mother tree cultivar and start producing our own seeds. Any ideas on that? I'd love to be able to try DSG with two Laverne-type seedlings or a Laverne and a Kent.
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Barath, I feel the moral of the story is that it really doesn't matter what type of seed you use as long as it's not whatever rootstock they use in Florida. There was a thread here a while back, I think warren was part of it, but several members actually visited Lavern and was able to see how they propogate their trees. It turns out, if I recall correctly, their mango trees are not clones but planted from seed and that explains the variability in the seedling trees.
Remember that Leo Manuel has huge, highly productive trees and most of his trees are various random seeds he planted. He currently has many Kensington Pride seedlings. I have been advocating Lavern Manilla Mango trees as rootstock only because they are readily available and easily distinguished from the Florida grafted trees which don't have the Lavern tag on them.
If I compared rate of trunk growth between my Kent seedlings vs Lavern Manilla seedling, my Kent seedling is actually growing faster than the Lavern Manilla seedling.
Some people have difficulty sprouting mango seeds or have an immediate need for rootstock and the Lavern Manilla is excellent rootstock that you can easily find and even with the variation of the seedlings, trees grown in California have adapted very well. Once I get more data, I will feel more comfortable recommending Kent, Tommy, Haden, Keitt, Manilla/Ataulfo/Champaigne seedlings as rootstock for California. Preliminary evidence show that Kent may work as well or perhaps even better than Lavern Manilla.
Simon
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Barath, I feel the moral of the story is that it really doesn't matter what type of seed you use as long as it's not whatever rootstock they use in Florida. There was a thread here a while back, I think warren was part of it, but several members actually visited Lavern and was able to see how they propogate their trees. It turns out, if I recall correctly, their mango trees are not clones but planted from seed and that explains the variability in the seedling trees.
Remember that Leo Manuel has huge, highly productive trees and most of his trees are various random seeds he planted. He currently has many Kensington Pride seedlings. I have been advocating Lavern Manilla Mango trees as rootstock only because they are readily available and easily distinguished from the Florida grafted trees which don't have the Lavern tag on them.
If I compared rate of trunk growth between my Kent seedlings vs Lavern Manilla seedling, my Kent seedling is actually growing faster than the Lavern Manilla seedling.
Some people have difficulty sprouting mango seeds or have an immediate need for rootstock and the Lavern Manilla is excellent rootstock that you can easily find and even with the variation of the seedlings, trees grown in California have adapted very well. Once I get more data, I will feel more comfortable recommending Kent, Tommy, Haden, Keitt, Manilla/Ataulfo/Champaigne seedlings as rootstock for California. Preliminary evidence show that Kent may work as well or perhaps even better than Lavern Manilla.
Simon
Interesting! Ok, well I'll stock up on Kent now that they're available for cheap.
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It looks like Devgad Alphonso mango trees are often multiple-rootstock grafted trees.
http://devgadmango.com/devgad-mango-journey/ (http://devgadmango.com/devgad-mango-journey/)
But 9 years? That's too long for me!
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Thera, thanks for the article, I did not know that so many of the Devgad Alphonso mangos I've been eating were possibly grown on double rootstocks! Several forum members and I have been pondering why the taste of Alphonsos grown in India taste sweeter than those grown here in California. Some have suggested that the red clay in the best Alphonso growing regions of India play a role and I wouldn't be surprised if double rootstocks enhances the uptake of more nutrients and minerals than trees grown on a single rootstock.
the main problem I have with my double rootstock trees is that they flower and attempt to hold fruit at less than one year old. I posted several pictures of my DSGed trees holding tons of marble sized fruit in earlier posts on this thread.
With temps in the upper 80-90+F, my trees are finally starting to grow vegetatively although I'm still removing an occasional bloom. The growth on my DSGed trees have really been hyper aggressive and not proportional to the size of the tree. In other words, the growth appears more like its double what you would expect for a tree of that size. Instead of pushing a single apical bud as a main stem, I'm getting multiple buds pushing and fully vegging out which is excellent for those individuals wanting very low scaffold branches. For those wanting the standard 3-4 feet of trunk before scaffold branches, you can simply remove lower growth and select a single central leader. I'll post pics in the coming week.
Simon
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Good to hear that other seedlings might work for California as well.
The LaVerne seedling I got was labeled as manilla but was obviously not grafted and was cheaper than the grafted trees. I think grafted ones were around $50 and the seedling was $27. I'm just making up the numbers but they're more or less there.
I'll experiment with this now that I have some land.
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Here are my Tommy Atkins seeds I started about a week and a half ago. I think the one that is really brown is not viable. Do you put them in pot after they sprout or do you take them straight out of the bag to graft?
I may start some Ataulfo and mix the rootstocks. Van
(https://s32.postimg.cc/9icud7ye9/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/9icud7ye9/)
(https://s32.postimg.cc/nq2j1vb35/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/nq2j1vb35/)
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I start the majority of my seeds for Double Stone Grafts in raised beds or pots during the Summer and use the wet towel in plastic bags during cooler weather or when I need seedlings extra fast.
Once the seed has sprouted, select two seedlings and plant them as close together as you can in a pot. Put the pot in a sunny location and perform the DSG when the leaves are still bronze or red color, preferably before the leaves turn green although it will still work when in the leaves are in the green stage.
If you are considering using one polyembryonic seedling and one monoembryonic seedling, you may want to use an older polyembryonic seedling so that the polyembryonic seedling has additional time to grow larger and better match the size of the monoembryonic seedling.
Simon
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Where can I find the detailed discussion of what is wrong with "whatever they graft on in Florida"?
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Hey Har, I'm giving my personal observations along with countless interviews with many mango growers from around California. There are at least several threads that discuss the slow growth and droopy tendency of the growth of mango trees purchased from Florida and planted in California. I'll try to find some of them and update this thread.
There are some reports of vigorous varieties performing better on Florida rootstock. For example, VP, LZ and for some people Alphonso.
Simon
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Here is one thread where I was asking to see successful Mango trees that were purchased from Florida.
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=16604.msg210849#msg210849 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=16604.msg210849#msg210849)
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=18187.25 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=18187.25)
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=15673.0 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=15673.0)
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=19806.0 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=19806.0)
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=14490.msg244663#msg244663 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=14490.msg244663#msg244663)
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=17932.msg225084#msg225084 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=17932.msg225084#msg225084)
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=18493.msg230942#msg230942 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=18493.msg230942#msg230942)
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=15376.msg195885#msg195885 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=15376.msg195885#msg195885)
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=18024.msg226053#msg226053 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=18024.msg226053#msg226053)
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=11144.msg220398#msg220398 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=11144.msg220398#msg220398)
Simon
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Thank you for all the links! I only got through half of them tonight.
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You're very welcome Har. Thank you so much for always volunteering your expertise to help forum members here, it is greatly appreciated!
Just this year, I've noticed another performance difference between my Florida grafted Lemon Zest and my Lemon Zest grafted onto Lavern Manilla rootstock. My LZ on Florida rootstock was planted into the ground about two years ago and I took a couple scions from that tree and grafted it onto my Lavern multigraft Manilla rootstock tree. The LZ scions on Manilla rootstock grew with extreme vigor and this year, I allowed it to hold several fruit.
The fruit on the LZ grafted onto Manilla rootstock grows and looks normal and is much larger than the fruit on the LZ tree on Florida rootstock. The fruit on the Florida rootstock is much smaller and rounder, I'm guessing these may be nubbins. Also, the fruit on Florida rootstock are cracking and falling off at a very high rate, the fruit are about 1-1.5 inches long when they fall off. Here are some pictures for comparison.
LZ fruit on Florida rootstock
(https://s31.postimg.cc/ryhzielaf/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ryhzielaf/)
LZ fruit on Lavern Manilla rootstock
(https://s32.postimg.cc/pbp72typd/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/pbp72typd/)
Simon
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Here are some updates of a few of my DSGed trees. This Jumbo Kesar was grafted onto newly sprouted seedlings on 09/18/15 and planted into the ground on 10/21/15.
(https://s32.postimg.cc/uip3t35ip/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/uip3t35ip/)
Here is a Sweet Tart grafted on 09/18/15 and planted into the ground on 10/21/15
(https://s31.postimg.cc/61o3vz4hz/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/61o3vz4hz/)
(https://s31.postimg.cc/mdy5lpitj/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/mdy5lpitj/)
Simon
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I hadn't seen Lemon Zest doing a branch of nubbins like that.
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You're very welcome Har. Thank you so much for always volunteering your expertise to help forum members here, it is greatly appreciated!
Just this year, I've noticed another performance difference between my Florida grafted Lemon Zest and my Lemon Zest grafted onto Lavern Manilla rootstock. My LZ on Florida rootstock was planted into the ground about two years ago and I took a couple scions from that tree and grafted it onto my Lavern multigraft Manilla rootstock tree. The LZ scions on Manilla rootstock grew with extreme vigor and this year, I allowed it to hold several fruit.
The fruit on the LZ grafted onto Manilla rootstock grows and looks normal and is much larger than the fruit on the LZ tree on Florida rootstock. The fruit on the Florida rootstock is much smaller and rounder, I'm guessing these may be nubbins. Also, the fruit on Florida rootstock are cracking and falling off at a very high rate, the fruit are about 1-1.5 inches long when they fall off. Here are some pictures for comparison.
LZ fruit on Florida rootstock
(https://s31.postimg.cc/ryhzielaf/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ryhzielaf/)
LZ fruit on Lavern Manilla rootstock
(https://s32.postimg.cc/pbp72typd/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/pbp72typd/)
Simon
Same here Simon. My LZ tree from florida that started like gangbuster and grew to 12' in 2.5 years has now regress to 8-9' after two years of dieback. this year it has about 10 fruits meanwhile my LZ grafted onto ataulfo and fake laverne manila are holding LZ in clusters. btw, great job with your DSG's they are progressing very well.
(https://s31.postimg.cc/pu0vwnm7b/IMG_8632.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/pu0vwnm7b/)
(https://s31.postimg.cc/8i0jb7spz/IMG_8635.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/8i0jb7spz/)
(https://s31.postimg.cc/cfseed4x3/IMG_8638.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/cfseed4x3/)
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Thanks JF! I wish I learned about the different rootstocks earlier. I really appreciate you showing me the way. I wouldn't have made it this far without the help of you and Leo.
Simon
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Thanks for sharing Simon....enjoyed the entire grafting video (background music too).
Let us know how the LZ does...but its probably going to grow pretty fast no matter which rootstock or how many rootstocks it has. I see you used kent seedlings for rootstocks. I have an LZ on manila and an LZ on Turpentine and they both seem to be growing vigorously in Socal compared to other varieties.
For the double bark graft, I see you put on NDM and Maha...fairly slow growers in SoCal. Curious to see how these slower growers do on manila rootstock.
Good luck!
Hello Warren, I was just wondering if you have seen a difference in fruit quality between your Lemon Zest on Manilla rootstock vs on Turpentine rootstock? If you see my pictures above, you can see that there is a noticeable difference between my fruit from Manilla vs Turpentine rootstock. All of my fruit from Turpentine rootstock are small, rounded and they tend to crack and the majority are falling off.
The fruit on my LZ on Manilla rootstock is normal looking, much longer and flatter and not a single one has cracked or has any fungal issues or is leaking sap. I forgot to mention, the LZ on Turp rootstock has some black spots and some are leaking sap.
Simon
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Here is an update on my very first DSGed mango tree. It was grafted onto double Kent seedlings on 06/18/15 and planted into the ground on 07/02/15 so it is approximately 1 year old from seed. Lemon Zest is definitely a vigorous upright grower so I will experiment with keeping it very short.
It is currently pushing about 15 new shoots and I should probably thin down to three evenly spaced branches but I will keep them all for now. I figure I can always thin later on and I want lots of low scaffold branches because of this varieties notorious upright growth.
I have some elderly friends that have a difficult time reaching high up into the canopy to harvest fruit so I would like to see if I can develop and shape a tree that can be maintained at around 8-10 feet and still be very productive. Because LZ is so vigorous, I feel the scaffold branches need to be maintained ultra low because fruiting branches move up as the tree gets larger and lower leaves and branches get shaded out.
Ultimately, I would like the majority of the fruit to be harvested at a height of between 4-7 feet and maintained this way. This height includes the sagging of the branches from the weight of the fruit.
I've been measuring the distance between leaves and growth flushes for Lemon Zest and it is roughly double the length of my other varieties. This article goes in depth about Mango Flowering http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1677-04202007000400007&script=sci_arttext (http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1677-04202007000400007&script=sci_arttext)
but I must mention that here in California, our growth flushes need Not harden and " achieve sufficient age" of 4-5 months as stated in the article. I have personally experienced floral induction and fruit set on young shoots that have rested for one month or less and I have experienced this on multiple varieties on different rootstocks.
I believe that the intensity and duration of cold weather here in California is a strong enough stimulus for floral induction so that trees grown in similarly colder climates can be pruned at will with special consideration for induction of new growth prior to inclement weather.
For those in Florida or similarly warm weather areas, the 4-5 month resting period should be taken seriously and fertilization and pruning should be carefully planned so that mango trees are coming out of their resting period during weather that is conducive to flowering.
Here are a couple shots of my LZ, approx 1 year old from seed.
Simon
(https://s32.postimg.cc/lgfyzauwx/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/lgfyzauwx/)
(https://s32.postimg.cc/44fmdv1fl/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/44fmdv1fl/)
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LZ is so vigorous...your DSG is going to help. Here is my two year graft on laverne seedling. I had 60-70 fruit until 3 weeks ago during the heatwave they started to split....horrible.
(https://s32.postimg.cc/kwhui5ehd/IMG_8651.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/kwhui5ehd/)
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Thanks for the report JF, I'm sad to hear that the LZ fruit will split even on Lavern seedling but with the heatwave, that is to be expected. More and more fruit is falling off of my LZ on Turpentine rootstock, I really don't think any will hold until ripe. Here is what has fallen off so far. Many of the fruit still hanging are starting to get sap damage and the lenticils are very dark. My fruit from the LZ on fake Manilla is prestine.
Simon
(https://s31.postimg.cc/839zdckav/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/839zdckav/)
(https://s31.postimg.cc/6pici1l1j/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6pici1l1j/)
(https://s31.postimg.cc/jib1vpm13/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/jib1vpm13/)
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Since this thread was basically started to test out a technique for accelerated growth, precocity and heavier fruit yields, I wanted to take another look at the importance of the Mangos root system. Newly sprouted Mango seedling roots grow at a rapid rate of approximately 10-12 inches in about a months time as you can see in my pictures on page 2 of this thread. The white root tip grows straight down until it encounters an obstacle at which time it will follow the contours of the obstacle until the direction of growth is un impeded.
This picture shows two seedlings grown in a raised fabric bed and you can see the roots make a 90 degree turn as soon as the root tip hits the floor of the container.
(https://s32.postimg.cc/7payr27a9/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/7payr27a9/)
A fully intact taproot may provide better anchorage in windy condition, areas prone to drought and possibly in areas with adverse soil conditions. The better adaptability to drought conditions is due to the tap roots continual growth outward until it is able to find a usable resource such as a below ground water table or mineral/nutrient resources.
A fully intact taproot may also benefit a Mango plants growth by sending out its taproot well beyond the drip zone where many growers tend to fertilize. The haphazard overuse and misuse of fertilizers, especially to treat unidentified micronutrient deficiencies, can quickly lead to situations of nutrient lock in and around the drip zone.
The availability of plant usable macro and micronutrients is highly dependent on pH of the soil and water in the rhizosphere and it is often confusing for those not informed on soil chemistry. A grower that has over fertilized and nutrient locked the soil may have a plant showing nutrient deficiencies and may add additional fertilizer, not realizing that the nutrients are already in the soil but are locked up and thus not in a usable form for the plant.
By having the fully intact taproot stretch out far beyond the typical drip zone, the trees roots may eventually encounter soils far enough away from the toxically nutrient locked soils that it may again start up taking the nutrients by first growing additional root hairs. The tap root may also spread out far enough to cover a broad range of soils with differing pH ranges which will allow it to potentially receive all the nutrients it requires for healthy growth.
Simon
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In contrast to the fully intact taproot, a severed tap root will have much more of a hairy, bushy root structure which is better situated to uptake water and nutrients. There have been several studies that have shown that a more dense, hairy mass of finer root hairs will yield better and faster growth than a plant with a long taproot and fewer of the fine absorptive root hairs.
Here is a picture of two seedlings, one has the majority of the taproot intact and the second had its taproot accidentally severed last year. You can see that the seedling with the shorter taproot has a much denser hairy root system that is approximately 3 times as dense as the seedling with the intact taproot. The more dense the root system, the faster the tree will grow.
In most situation, I speculate that cut taproots or Mango plants that have a dense root mass created by root pruning pots or chemically treated root pruning pots will have better and faster growth than a tree with fully intact taproots.
The beauty of the DSG or Triple/Quadruple rootstock trees is that you can have a combination of multiple types of root systems. For future experiments, I intend to use three rootstocks selected for Anthracnose resistance( Polyembryonic seedlings), Powdery Mildew( Monoembryonic seedlings) and a native or local mango variety that shows good resistance to disease and is adaptable to local soil conditions such as flood prone, high pH, saline etc...
Two of the seedling rootstocks will have a dense hairy root mass created by using MicroKote and the the third seedling will have a fully intact taproot.
Simon
(https://s31.postimg.cc/4kw6yr7sn/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4kw6yr7sn/)
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Here is another picture showing the full length of the taproot. Notice the seedling with the severed taproot has about three times the number of fine absorptive root hairs.
Simon
(https://s32.postimg.cc/7p7bevfsx/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/7p7bevfsx/)
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Here is another picture showing the full length of the taproot. Notice the seedling with the severed taproot has about three times the number of fine absorptive root hairs.
Simon
(https://s32.postimg.cc/7p7bevfsx/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/7p7bevfsx/)
Simon,
this project is interesting and practical.....thanks to your dedication!
I'm now applying DSG to all weak turpentine rootstock, laverne seedlings and ataulfo rootstock seem to work fine on their own. Here is the power of a lavener rootstock 10 month old graft....LZ and Manohar.
(https://s31.postimg.cc/qcjp83w47/IMG_0698.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/qcjp83w47/)
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LZ and Manohar, that's a match made in heaven! One of these days, you gotta let me in on your top secrets on how you keep your trees so healthy!
I just finished painting up another batch of MicroKote treated pots. These pots should help create a super dense fibrous root system which should spur vigorous growth.
Simon
(https://s31.postimg.cc/qoqf6f5l3/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/qoqf6f5l3/)
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I just found out that our friend Carlos approves of this product. Here's his YouTube video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nADhg-AoRbc
Simon
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I just found out that our friend Carlos approves of this product. Here's his YouTube video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nADhg-AoRbc
Simon
"Before MicroKote" :) I gave Carlos a can of my fave, don't know if he's used it yet. Griffin's Spin-Out, a paint laden with copper hydroxide.
Trying to create that perfect root system, here's a tall Stuewe's Tree Pot, with ribs to direct the roots down, that was painted.
(https://s32.postimg.cc/v25y4e5xd/Treated_Pot2011.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/v25y4e5xd/)
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I just found out that our friend Carlos approves of this product. Here's his YouTube video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nADhg-AoRbc
Simon
"Before MicroKote" :) I gave Carlos a can of my fave, don't know if he's used it yet. Griffin's Spin-Out, a paint laden with copper hydroxide.
Trying to create that perfect root system, here's a tall Stuewe's Tree Pot, with ribs to direct the roots down, that was painted.
(https://s32.postimg.cc/v25y4e5xd/Treated_Pot2011.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/v25y4e5xd/)
Nice! That is exactly what I am doing with many of my pots!
- Stuewe tree pot, with ribs to train roots downward and to form a nice deep root system
- MicroKote on the inside of the pot to grow a fibrous root system
- White (or beige) plastic spray paint on the outside to reflect away sunlight and keep roots cooler
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Yup, I've got the same pots as well, just didn't post the pictures. I have the tall Stuewe's pots painted with three coats of MicroKote. Before I move my San Diego Super Mango experiment into these larger pots, they will be moved through a series of smaller MicroKote treated pots. The smallest container will only be 4-6 inches deep so that I can encourage dense roots early on.
(https://s31.postimg.cc/jlxnurbt3/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/jlxnurbt3/)
(https://s31.postimg.cc/t7r8b22yv/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/t7r8b22yv/)
Simon
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Double rootstock with an intact taproot and a rootstock with more feeder roots... interesting...
There's a technique of grafting similar to stone grafting where you flip the plant upside-down and graft onto the emerging tap-root. This is supposed to create a dense mat of feeder roots. I would expect this to have low success rate, but if you could get one to take, and then plant a seed directly into the ground and inarch to that once it's old enough to get the intact tap-root. That would be a very interesting experiment.
Mango has a low rate of success with the inverted root grafting method (10-20%), so it might not be useful for any real applications, but it'd be a fun experiment for someone with lots of seeds and lots of budwood.
http://www.fairchildgarden.org/portals/0/docs/canistel%20propagationl.%20pdf.pdf (http://www.fairchildgarden.org/portals/0/docs/canistel%20propagationl.%20pdf.pdf)
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Nice! That is exactly what I am doing with many of my pots!
- Stuewe tree pot, with ribs to train roots downward and to form a nice deep root system
- MicroKote on the inside of the pot to grow a fibrous root system
- White (or beige) plastic spray paint on the outside to reflect away sunlight and keep roots cooler
I assume a mango has a deeper root system with root hairs than avocado? IOW, I'd plant a mango in a deep pot but not an avocado.
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Double rootstock with an intact taproot and a rootstock with more feeder roots... interesting...
There's a technique of grafting similar to stone grafting where you flip the plant upside-down and graft onto the emerging tap-root. This is supposed to create a dense mat of feeder roots. I would expect this to have low success rate, but if you could get one to take, and then plant a seed directly into the ground and inarch to that once it's old enough to get the intact tap-root. That would be a very interesting experiment.
Mango has a low rate of success with the inverted root grafting method (10-20%), so it might not be useful for any real applications, but it'd be a fun experiment for someone with lots of seeds and lots of budwood.
http://www.fairchildgarden.org/portals/0/docs/canistel%20propagationl.%20pdf.pdf (http://www.fairchildgarden.org/portals/0/docs/canistel%20propagationl.%20pdf.pdf)
I remember our friend Adam of Flyingfoxfruits.com posted something regarding inverted root grafts. From what I have observed, simply pruning the tap root will increase the number and density of fine absorptive roots but probably not as much as the inverted root graft. At this point, I would rather not have to perform an extra graft, especially one with a low success rate but if I can't get the density I want with the multiple rootstocks and the MicroKote, I will definitely give the inverted root graft a try. Thanks for the information!
Simon
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Guess I don't understand the dynamics of an inverted root but being in the tree biz is scares the hell outta me. You can permanently stunt or kill a tree if the taproot or any major root has a J in it. When I plant bare root or those with loose rootballs trees or grapevines I drop it deep into the hole, drop some dirt on it, pull up to the final position to straighten roots and backfill.
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Mark, I recently looked up the inverted root graft and it is very promising for specific varieties of fruit. Grafting the scion onto the inverted taproot sounds crazy but it is supposed to greatly increase the density of surface feeder roots. I will probably give it a shot just to see what happens.
Here is an update of my first DSGed Lemon Zest, it is approximately 24 inches tall and has about 15 growth tips. Several of the smaller shaded branches regressed and dried up. I will leave all the branches and leaves on this year in order to take advantage of the summer heat and maximize photosynthesis.
I will try to keep up with growth measurements so members can track the progress.
Simon
(https://s32.postimg.cc/t0yf43pxd/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/t0yf43pxd/)
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So why people don't want a tap root, for ease of growth management with a small tree? I would think for those of us growing mango in SoCal, a vigorous mango tree is not a real issue and so a strong tap root would be preferred. No?
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Your Lemon Zest looks very nice for a young tree. Looking forward to seeing the growth progress and habit. I Just recently grafted a LZ onto a Ataulfo Seedling I started in the summer of 2015 and hopefully it will take and grow well this year.
Johnny
(https://s32.postimg.cc/9w2enwd01/IMG_5120_Ataulfo_Seedling_after_Lemon_Zest_Graf.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/9w2enwd01/)
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So why people don't want a tap root, for ease of growth management with a small tree? I would think for those of us growing mango in SoCal, a vigorous mango tree is not a real issue and so a strong tap root would be preferred. No?
As you can see in the pictures I posted, a severed tap root creates a more dense root system which is able to uptake more nutrients and water and thus will grow faster. A fully intact tap root or seeds planted in situ may be more adaptable to adverse soil conditions.
You can see my thread on avocado here http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=12844.0 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=12844.0)
I don't know for sure exactly why it works but it does seem to work. From my research on Mango grown in California, the majority of giant trees are seedling trees or seedling trees that have been topworked.
I believe most people in California don't plant mangos with fully intact taproots because they are not aware of the issues with Florida rootstock. It is too easy to see a nice grafted mango online or at the nursery and immediately purchase it not knowing it may not grow well for us here. Many people also don't know how to graft and grafting in situ can be difficult because you have to protect the graft Union from temp extremes.
You can plant seeds in pots in order to keep the fully intact taproot but you must then immediately plant them into the ground in order to avoid encircling roots. If you immediately plant a Double Stone Grafted tree into the ground as soon as the first flush has hardened,you must be aware that the rootball will almost certainly completely fall apart due to lack of surface feeder roots to hold the soil ball in place.
Almost every single one of my DSGed trees that I immediately planted into the ground had the rootball fall apart on me as I removed it from the pot but the plants perform well regardless.
I highly recommend people to plant their mango trees into the ground as soon as possible, after the last chance of frost in early Spring if possible. Keeping your DSGed tree in a pot for more than several months may stunt the outward growth of the root system and overwatering a potted mango, especially one planted in heavy potting soil, will greatly increase the chance or root rot and failure of one or both grafts.
Simon
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Your Lemon Zest looks very nice for a young tree. Looking forward to seeing the growth progress and habit. I Just recently grafted a LZ onto a Ataulfo Seedling I started in the summer of 2015 and hopefully it will take and grow well this year.
Johnny
(https://s32.postimg.cc/9w2enwd01/IMG_5120_Ataulfo_Seedling_after_Lemon_Zest_Graf.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/9w2enwd01/)
That's a great start, I'm glad it's not on Florida Turpentine rootstock. I highly recommend you try the Double Stone Graft, there is a video from Shramajeevi somewhere on this thread that shows you how to do it. If you can do a cleft graft, the DSG is only slightly more difficult. My soil is absolutely horrible and the growth rate of my LZ should motivate others to give this technique a try, besides, I need more data points from others trying this technique.
If anyone else has tried this technique or has one of my DSGed trees that I gave you, please post an update, I would love to hear about your success and failures.
I have a report that one of my DSGed Jumbo Kesar on double Ataulfo rootstock had one of the rootstocks die. The tree was in a pot since I gave him the tree last year. I highly recommend people plant their trees into the ground ASAP.
Simon
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Here is my DSGed Jumbo Kesar with two main branches, the one on the side will probably be removed and used for scion material.
(https://s32.postimg.cc/l6jku69wx/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/l6jku69wx/)
Simon
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Here's an update on one of my DSG mangos. All of them are in pots, and unfortunately I used double ataulfo rootstocks on this initial batch (which I did a year ago) so their growth has been poor. They have not caught up to the growth of many of the single rootstock mangos I grafted around the same time.
This one is Valencia Pride on double ataulfo.
(https://s32.postimg.cc/7ztozhmg1/IMG_1165.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/7ztozhmg1/)
(https://s32.postimg.cc/3rywqql0h/IMG_1166.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3rywqql0h/)
(https://s32.postimg.cc/nb3i03js1/IMG_1167.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/nb3i03js1/)
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Very nice grafting works, Barath. Your VP leaves have the abnormal yellow spots. What are they?
Barath -- I finally have some Frederic Passion fruits from my vine, but not ripe yet.
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Very nice grafting works, Barath. Your VP leaves have the abnormal yellow spots. What are they?
Barath -- I finally have some Frederic Passion fruits from my vine, but not ripe yet.
That's a good question -- I'm not sure. The soil I used isn't nutrient rich -- it's redwood bark, loam, and sand, so it could be nutrient deficiency. It could also be related to the DSG, because my single rootstock trees don't have spots.
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I have a tree that has had really poor growth. About 5 years old, its 18 inches tall. It still produces fruit at this height but I have been removing them at a small stage. I was thinking about moving it (it has 24'x24' clearance), but now I think I may try to double stone graft it to accelerate its growth.
Anyone else try something similar?
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I have a tree that has had really poor growth. About 5 years old, its 18 inches tall. It still produces fruit at this height but I have been removing them at a small stage. I was thinking about moving it (it has 24'x24' clearance), but now I think I may try to double stone graft it to accelerate its growth.
Anyone else try something similar?
Are you planning on taking scions to use for DSGing or are you going to try to nurse graft it or approach graft it with seedlings in hopes of increasing vigor?
If a tree is performing poorly, I usually blame it on Disease or poor roots/rootstock if the foliage looks good. It may be better to plant seeds or seedlings and graft it with scions from your current tree. Older hardened wood is more difficult to approach graft. Green on green is relatively easy.
Simon
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Hi Simon and all,
Thanks for your wonderful photos and tips about grafting and it's progress.
Although the double stone grafted mango trees are proven to be performing well in India, i was wondering since both root-stocks are planted very close to each other, during the next years their roots (especially the tap root) will cross each other and might get damaged, reducing the life of the tree in the log run. So i was thinking may be a plant can be made using double (or multiple) root-stocks but the root-stocks are planted at a short distance from each other, let's say 30 centimeters distance between each other? That way, the taproot will grow straight undisturbed at least until it reaches the diameter of 30 centimeters.
Below is a short drawing (dont laugh on the drawing :-)) i made explaining what i am thinking of.
Step 1: plant 4 seeds opposite to each other, leaving around 30 centimeters distance between all of them (preferably in ground - or they can be planted in 4 separate bags/pots)
(https://s32.postimg.cc/dam467wg1/Step_1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/dam467wg1/)
Step 2: when the root-stocks reach a height of approximately 50 centimeters, do a double cleft graft using the two root-stocks opposite to each other. Leave the other two root-stocks untouched.
(https://s32.postimg.cc/403nu92cx/Step_2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/403nu92cx/)
Step 3: after couple of months when the graft takes and the scion starts growing (2-3 flushes straight - no branches yet), do either an approach graft or reverse veneer graft to the grown up scion - using the remaining two root-stocks. This way, one scion will be supported by 4 separate trunks / root system.
(https://s31.postimg.cc/ib1zka2tz/Step_3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ib1zka2tz/)
Please let me know what you guys think about this.
Thanks,
Sobars
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Sobars, that is an excellent idea. I'm not worried about the roots crossing below the root flare because the roots will simply root graft, even if they are circling. Encircling roots are more of a problem when they are on the surface and encircle the above ground trunk, usually around the root flare.
With your technique, I see the advantage of allowing the multiple rootstocks more room to expand instead of immediately fusing. With your method, the tree should be more stable as well.
Simon
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Here's an update on the progress of my Jumbo Kesar on DSG. The recent flush is fully hardened and the next flush is about to pop. I had two main branches but removed one of them to give this tree more vertical clearance. Notice how deep green the leaves are. This is probably my least problematic tree, I believe it is on Mallika rootstock but I have to double check.
Simon
(https://s32.postimg.cc/c8ezbfi7l/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/c8ezbfi7l/)
(https://s32.postimg.cc/r5ngcfvg1/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/r5ngcfvg1/)
(https://s32.postimg.cc/944ben1f5/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/944ben1f5/)
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I want to start my first double stone graft but my rootstock just flushed. Should I wait for the new growth to harden before attempting? I have some NDM budwood that is prime, but I'll wait if I need to.
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You don't have to wait for the current flush to harden unless you are transplanting the rootstocks. The original DSGing method utilizes seedlings in the copper/red color leaf stage because at this particular stage in the seedlings developement, it is utilizing stored nutrients from the embryo and it is in an undifferentiated state which allows for greater success.
If the initial copper leaf stage has passed and you are on the second+ flush, you are basically green wood grafting even though the next flushes can still have copper colored leaves, it will not be utilizing the embryo as a major food source if at all.
You must wait for the current flush to harden only if you are about to transplant the rootstock, which I don't recommend you do right before grafting as it will damage roots and the rootstock will not be in am optimal growth state. I always have my rootstocks transplanted into its container as soon as possible to give it the most time to recover before the grafting process.
Keep the new graft out of direct sun for 1-2 weeks. Please keep us updated on your progress and good luck!
Simon
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Simon
I've been doing DSG on turpentine rootstocks on in ground trees. I do an approach graft onto the rootstock. The drawing illustrates a double cleft graft what is your suggestion for those trees that have been on the ground for a few years?
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You don't have to wait for the current flush to harden unless you are transplanting the rootstocks. The original DSGing method utilizes seedlings in the copper/red color leaf stage because at this particular stage in the seedlings developement, it is utilizing stored nutrients from the embryo and it is in an undifferentiated state which allows for greater success.
If the initial copper leaf stage has passed and you are on the second+ flush, you are basically green wood grafting even though the next flushes can still have copper colored leaves, it will not be utilizing the embryo as a major food source if at all.
You must wait for the current flush to harden only if you are about to transplant the rootstock, which I don't recommend you do right before grafting as it will damage roots and the rootstock will not be in am optimal growth state. I always have my rootstocks transplanted into its container as soon as possible to give it the most time to recover before the grafting process.
Keep the new graft out of direct sun for 1-2 weeks. Please keep us updated on your progress and good luck!
Simon
thanks for the tips. i'll post my progress. i have a few in the red stage too, but they aren't spaced close enough. that's why i was waiting for the first growth to harden--so i can transplant them so they are closer together. i am guessing that it wouldn't be safe to transplant when they are just sprouting(?).
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Simon
I've been doing DSG on turpentine rootstocks on in ground trees. I do an approach graft onto the rootstock. The drawing illustrates a double cleft graft what is your suggestion for those trees that have been on the ground for a few years?
Hey JF, I don't see the drawing but from your explanation, it sounds like you will be doing a nurse graft or regular approach graft. Approach grafts on older wood is much more difficult. If approach grafting Florida Turpentine trees, you may simply be accelerating the rate of droopiness although it may help. If you were somehow able to approach graft the scion, so above the Turpentine rootstock, it may help the tree overcome the issues with the current rootstock.
As an example, when I graft Tomatos onto disease resistant rootstocks, I must not allow the grafted scion to root into the soil or else it will bypass the immunity imparted upon it by the disease resistant rootstock.
For my Florida Turpentine rootstock trees, I have planted Mango seeds next to my Florida tree and instead of expending time and energy on healing the Turpentine rootstock, I simply graft the cultivar I want onto the seedlings. I allow the Turpentine rootstock to continue to grow and fruit so as not to waste the time and resources already spent on it but at the same time, the next generation on better adapted rootstock is growing and will eventually overtake the Turpentine rootstock. Since the seedlings and the Turpentine rootstock trees are sharing the same hole, I don't have to expend energy on digging a new hole or watering or fertilizing. The only problem is that if you graft the seedling too soon, it will be induced to bloom in Winter. It may be better to plant the seeds and let the seedlings fully establish before top working the trees.
Simon
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You don't have to wait for the current flush to harden unless you are transplanting the rootstocks. The original DSGing method utilizes seedlings in the copper/red color leaf stage because at this particular stage in the seedlings developement, it is utilizing stored nutrients from the embryo and it is in an undifferentiated state which allows for greater success.
If the initial copper leaf stage has passed and you are on the second+ flush, you are basically green wood grafting even though the next flushes can still have copper colored leaves, it will not be utilizing the embryo as a major food source if at all.
You must wait for the current flush to harden only if you are about to transplant the rootstock, which I don't recommend you do right before grafting as it will damage roots and the rootstock will not be in am optimal growth state. I always have my rootstocks transplanted into its container as soon as possible to give it the most time to recover before the grafting process.
Keep the new graft out of direct sun for 1-2 weeks. Please keep us updated on your progress and good luck!
Simon
thanks for the tips. i'll post my progress. i have a few in the red stage too, but they aren't spaced close enough. that's why i was waiting for the first growth to harden--so i can transplant them so they are closer together. i am guessing that it wouldn't be safe to transplant when they are just sprouting(?).
Actually, newly sprouted seeds are the one exception that is easily transplantable without wilting as long as the roots are not severely damaged. At the newly emerging sapling stage or copper/red leaf stage, the energy is still coming from the embryo and the seedling is surprisingly resilient.
Simon
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Here's a few updates of my Jumbo Kesar on DSG. I just recently removed one of the main upright branches for use as a scion in another experiment and this tree immediately pushed three more buds. These DSGed trees definitely want to grow in a bushy form as reported by others that have used multiple rootstock technology.
(https://s32.postimg.cc/4uvmru7q9/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4uvmru7q9/)
Here is my Sweet Tart on DSG pushing new growth.
(https://s32.postimg.cc/pbtcf74rl/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/pbtcf74rl/)
Simon
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Here's a few updates of my Jumbo Kesar on DSG. I just recently removed one of the main upright branches for use as a scion in another experiment and this tree immediately pushed three more buds. These DSGed trees definitely want to grow in a bushy form as reported by others that have used multiple rootstock technology.
(https://s32.postimg.cc/4uvmru7q9/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4uvmru7q9/)
Here is my Sweet Tart on DSG pushing new growth.
(https://s32.postimg.cc/pbtcf74rl/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/pbtcf74rl/)
Simon
This good news! I will secure all my turpentine rootstock trees with Manila type rootstock.
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It's been about a year since my first Double Stone Grafted Mango tree went into the ground and I wanted to discuss a few of the failures that I have seen so far. The majority of my DSGed trees have been growing extremely well with a lot of vigor with low branches and in a compact manner. I have two DSGed trees that were in pots and the scion pushed and hardened a few leaves but the scion then stalled and one of the rootstocks eventually died back. I left the tree to continue growing in the pot but the tree was obviously stunted as it was dependent on both rootstocks. The tree eventually looked weaker and weaker and the scion eventually died. If I see one of the rootstocks die, I now consider the tree a loss and either discard the tree entirely or re use the scion for another graft.
The majority of the DSGed trees I grafted have been given away and I have noticed a pattern that trees that are immediately planted into the ground perform well but those left in pots have been hit or miss. I have two reports of trees that were left in pots that have either died completely or one of the rootstocks died back. I know for certain that one of these trees died from overwatering as the owner watered the tree approx every other day in Winter even after I told him to let the soil dry out in between wage rings and to cut back on watering during Cold weather.
I have to stress that these trees should be planted into the ground as soon as possible. The initial round of DSGed trees were Not planted into root pruning pots as I was trying to keep the tap root intact so that it can tunnel deep into the native soil. DSGed trees should have their current flush of leaves full hardened before transplanting into the ground in order to prevent wilting unless you are extremely careful.
Planting these trees into native soil ASAP will enable the tree to establish sooner and you will significantly reduce the liklihood of you tree dieing from root rot. In areas where Winters are mild enough, you can even plant the tree into the ground in Winter as long as there is no possibility of frost.
Simon
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Here is my slowest growing DSGed tree with the most nutrient deficiencies. It is a Julie on Julie and Carrie rootstock IIRC. This tree is very slow growing and the leaves are very chlorotic. One issue I keep encountering with this tree is that it keeps pushing new growth below the graft so much energy is wasted. I think it finally got the picture and it is now finally pushin a new branch from the scion. I highly recommend using the most vigorous seedlings when growing in cold climates. I used Julie and Carrie as the rootstocks just to see if it will grow slower and it definitely has.
Other DSGed trees grafted at the same time is double if not triple the size of this tree. For those wanting a smaller tree, selecting smaller or weaker seedlings may give you a more compact, slow growing tree. There is definitely a possibility that it is the Julie scion that influenced the rootstock.
(https://s32.postimg.cc/4z42aya0h/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4z42aya0h/)
Simon
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Hi Simon,
Interesting results and technique. I have planted a couple hundred mango seed the last few weeks, my first seedlings are almost ready to graft and Im going to try the double stone method while they are in the copper leaf stage. Ive never grafted mango before so I am about to find out!
I have number 11 and turpentine seeds for rootstocks for the farm. and just for fun/experimenting a few other mango types ive been eating all season. ive erected a shade house and will be using the little grafting scion bags as seen in the video on the first post in this thread. they are planted in 1 gallon nursery pots filled with the native sandy soil from the farm
Ill report back on my results.
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Hey Luke, the Turpentine seedlings should work very well for you. I would recommend using different seedlings in your pairings in order to increase diversity and possible adaptability to various growing conditions. I would also suggest using at least one Polyembryonic and one Monoembryonic seedling as there are reports that one is better for Anthracnose and the later is better for Powdery Mildew. A razor blade works really well for these newly sprouted seedlings.
Simon
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(https://s7.postimg.cc/wec95r23r/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/wec95r23r/)
Here is a 1 week update of my Sweet Tart on DSG( see reply #213). Sweet Tart is a fast grower. All these DSGed trees seem to want to stay bushy with short internodes.
Simon
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simon from your experience is it possible for the graft to push through if only one side/rootstock takes? Is it even possible for one side to take?
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If only one side takes, then the scion could initially push but I think the graft will ultimately fail because DSG requires large scions and a single rootstock will unlikely be able to support such a large scion by itself.
Simon
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If only one side takes, then the scion could initially push but I think the graft will ultimately fail because DSG requires large scions and a single rootstock will unlikely be able to support such a large scion by itself.
Simon
Oh, okay. I'm asking because I can already see 2-3 of my grafts pushing so I'm curious if I was successful, but I guess I will need to wait a bit longer.
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DSG approach graft took to reinforce turpy rootstock
(https://s9.postimg.cc/clx2z5btn/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/clx2z5btn/)
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DSG approach graft took to reinforce turpy rootstock
(https://s9.postimg.cc/clx2z5btn/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/clx2z5btn/)
I just put one for my sunrise, wondering how close should I get the plant to rootstock (turpie)? mine was like 6" away, am thinking about moving it closer. I plan on doing this for my peach cobbler as well. Rest all my plants are on manila or ataulfo.
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DSG approach graft took to reinforce turpy rootstock
(https://s9.postimg.cc/clx2z5btn/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/clx2z5btn/)
I just put one for my sunrise, wondering how close should I get the plant to rootstock (turpie)? mine was like 6" away, am thinking about moving it closer. I plan on doing this for my peach cobbler as well. Rest all my plants are on manila or ataulfo.
I put mine 2-3" from the trunk. Try not to disturb the roots they usually fuse in two week at this time of the year
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Looks good guys, it takes me a lot longer to get callousing when I innarch greenwood to hardened brownwood. Instead of nursing the existing bad rootstock, I have started seedlings next to my Turpentine trees and grafted them with the variety I want. I thought about nurse grafting but the possibility of the Turpentine rootstock influences still exist and there may be delayed rejection of approach grafted tree.
Simon
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Here's a pic of the one I have that's pushing
(http://i.imgur.com/T6brhbLl.jpg)
This was actually on green rootstock... still curious if both rootstocks took.
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How long after you grafted did it take to push? Generally, it takes 2-3 weeks when I perform a DSG before the scion pushes but it depends on how mature the scion was, the temperature and the vigor of the rootstock. Congratulations and please keep us updated. Remember to plant into the ground as soon as possible but make sure the current flush has fully hardened. If your going to keep it in a pot, make sure you have a fast draining soil or soilless mix.
Simon
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How long after you grafted did it take to push? Generally, it takes 2-3 weeks when I perform a DSG before the scion pushes but it depends on how mature the scion was, the temperature and the vigor of the rootstock. Congratulations and please keep us updated. Remember to plant into the ground as soon as possible but make sure the current flush has fully hardened. If your going to keep it in a pot, make sure you have a fast draining soil or soilless mix.
Simon
almost seemed too quick... about a week give or take. that gives me hope for the other two that haven't pushed yet. should i plant at such an early stage or wait at least for the first flush to fully emerge? i'll update as it progresses
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Direct planting in the ground is a bit complicated but here it goes. If it was an actual Double Stone Graft with both seedlings in the copper leaf stage, you can plant directly into the ground if it took your scion between 2-3 weeks to push as long as temps are not too hot. You can do this because in the copper leaf stage, the seedlings are still depending on the stone(seed) for energy. If the scion took between 2-3 weeks to start pushing, the callous at the graft Union should already be formed and there is less risk of the graft Union drying out.
To be safe, I would recommend everyone keep newly grafted trees in an area with partial sun to allow the union to heal. Once you see the scion begin to push, gradually place it in an area with increasing amounts of sunlight until it is adapted to full sun. Allow it to grow in full sun until the first flush is fully hardened.
Once the initial flush is fully hardened, immediately plant your tree into the ground. Beware that when you remove the tree from the pot, there is an excellent chance the entire rootball will fall apart on you. In order to stabilize the two rootstocks, I use grafting tape to tie the two seedlings together about 1 inch above the soil line. This will prevent the two seedlings from being torn apart during transplanting. These are newly sprouted seedlings and their roots have not had a chance to fill the pot yet. This is OK. If the rootball falls apart, continue planting as normal but be very careful not to split the two seedlings apart.
If you feel you damaged a lot of the roots, give your seedling some shade by moving a potted plant next to it for a couple weeks. Mulch heavily and your tree should grow well for you. Every DSGed tree I have and that I've seen in my friends yard has grown in a horizontal bushy manner. They want to push branches out at very short intervals. Even Lemon Zest is pushing new growth on short branches.
Simon
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It's not mango but I did a DSG for avocado. I got scion from Frank, so it was very fresh. I also grafted onto Joey at the same time. The DSG are just starting to push 2 weeks after grafting. Those grafted on Joey is not pushing yet. I'll keep my fingers crossed.
(https://s9.postimg.cc/pyb3l8r0r/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/pyb3l8r0r/)
(https://s9.postimg.cc/64yzsjdmz/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/64yzsjdmz/)
I did DSG on mangos last week, but nothing yet. Van
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Nice work but your not out of the woods yet. Sometimes the initial push is from stored up energy from an overly mature scion bud. Once the first flush has fully pushed and hardened, you will be in a much safer position. It looks promising!
Simon
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Yes. I was even hesitant to post this, but it is good information to know that just because it pushes doesn't mean the graft has taken. I'll keep you updated.
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saw this video shared in a facebook group that I follow. Quite an interesting way to graft two rootstock at the same time.
https://www.facebook.com/jualbibittanamanbuah/videos/1064677420306452/ (https://www.facebook.com/jualbibittanamanbuah/videos/1064677420306452/)
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saw this video shared in a facebook group that I follow. Quite an interesting way to graft two rootstock at the same time.
https://www.facebook.com/jualbibittanamanbuah/videos/1064677420306452/ (https://www.facebook.com/jualbibittanamanbuah/videos/1064677420306452/)
That was really cool!!
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saw this video shared in a facebook group that I follow. Quite an interesting way to graft two rootstock at the same time.
https://www.facebook.com/jualbibittanamanbuah/videos/1064677420306452/ (https://www.facebook.com/jualbibittanamanbuah/videos/1064677420306452/)
Thanks for sharing the video! That is really cool. Looks like you can use more mature rootstocks with this method, perhaps giving you better survivability of both rootstocks. With the method I'm currently using, if one rootstock dies, the graft will linger and eventually die. With two, more mature rootstocks, there is less chance for one rootstock to die off.
Simon
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I've been out for a while so I decided it's about time to update some of my experiments.
As most of you are aware, I've been recommending that people in SoCal either use seedling rootstock or Lavern Manilla rootstock as they are proven to grow well here. Lavern Manilla is a safer bet because they are more uniform in what to expect where as seedlings are a gamble although I've had great success with the random seedlings I use.
Numerous people have contacted me regarding purchasing my Double Stone grafted trees but I have not sold a single tree firstly because I'm not in this for making money and secondly because this technique is still unproven here in SoCal. Please remember that these experiments are in reality far from true controlled experiments that the agriculture industry typically imploy. My experiments are more of a backyard hobbyists seeing what would happen if I did this.
I did give away many DSGed trees to various orchards around SD and preliminary results are enough for me to conclude that this technique should not be recommended for the average back yard mango grower here in SoCal.
The initial point of these unscientific experiments is to create a mango tree that shows accelerated growth in our marginal climate. Although initial growth of these DSGed trees was amazing, typically about double compared to single rootstock trees, second year growth was stalled due to continual flowering. Because these trees are grafted with mature scions, they will flower within the first year and there after, wasting valuable resources.
Approximately 50% of the DSGed trees I gave out have eventually died after 1 year or at least one of the seedlings has died leaving only a single rootstock. Many of the trees were given to new mango tree growers that probably over watered the potted trees in Winter but that is beside the point.
Initially I believed this technique would benefit us here in marginal climates with accelerated growth but instead, I'm getting super bushy trees with short internodes that wants to continually flower. I now believe that this technique will most benefit those living is Florida where control of tree size is more important and heavier, more frequent flowering and short bushy trees is preferred.
The growth of the trunk is one of the most amazing attributes of these DSGed trees but the growth is dependent on random seedlings(non clonal) and scion to rootstock influence that nothing can truely be concluded regarding which rootstock scion combinations work best.
Although I do have a couple examples of accelerated growth with this technique, the survivability of the trees combined with the complicated(to the average grower) grafting procedures point to the fact that the risk does not outweigh the reward.
For those growers in SoCal, stick to planting random seedlings in the ground or planting Lavern Manilla or Ataulfo seedlings and make sure you DO NOT GRAFT the tree until it is fully established and has reached fruiting size. By grafting a young tree, florigenic influences(namely cold weather) will induce blooms within a year or two and there after.
For those still not satisfied with typical or average growth, I have utilized the experience I have gained with DSGing and hopefully improved upon it with the California Super Rootstock experiments where I basically innarch multiple seedlings together yielding a tree with multiple rootstocks but Without grafting mature scion onto the seedling so all energy will be focused on vegetative growth. Without the florigenic influence of mature scions, the seedlings should not bloom as quickly as the DSGed trees did.
Simon
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Please see this thread if you are interested in experimenting with multiple rootstocks.
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=20852.0 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=20852.0)
Please don't get confused, I am still recommending either planting random seedlings into the ground or purchasing Lavern Manilla seedlings and planting those into the ground for mango growers in SoCal. I have had great success growing random seedlings from store bought fruit into the ground and also excellent results with Lavern Manilla seedlings. The most important thing is Not to Graft with mature scions until the tree is fully established and is fruiting size!
If you live in an exceptionally warm microclimate, you may get enough warm weather to inhibit flowering but this is not the case where I live. If you live in one of these warm areas, your mango trees should grow sufficiently without multiple rootstock technology.
I want to emphasize that I live in a marginal growing area for mango. I get frost every year and my soil pH is 8.2. The soil pH is as much of an issue, if not more so, than the cold weather because micronutrients are not made bioavailable at this high a pH.
In my DSGed experiments, the plants showed explosive growth when first planted into the ground, most likely because I topped the soil with organic amendments and the pH was closer 7. Now that the pH has drifted higher and the nutrients are gone, the growth has slowed dramatically.
I still believe the DSGing technique will be useful for accelerated growth if your soil pH is in the proper range but you will still run into issues with over and pre mature flowering. I believe this technique will be very useful for nurseries especially in Florida with the potential of accelerated growth, precocity and dwarfing the size of the tree.
In case you are wondering, single grafted trees also flower within the first year where I live.
Simon
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Here is a picture of one of my DSGed Sweet Tart that is doing pretty well despite flowering the first winter I grafted and this year as well. This tree is about 1.5 years old from seed, IIRC, and is over 3 feet tall with flowers growing on 4 main branches. One of the main branches is literally on the ground because I wanted to see what happens if I let it grow naturally. In hind site, I should have pruned it early on because it is extremely lopsided now.
(https://s4.postimg.cc/71qgx6d2h/IMG_1696.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/71qgx6d2h/)
(https://s4.postimg.cc/4lonjbuzt/IMG_1697.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4lonjbuzt/)
(https://s4.postimg.cc/5pdd9150p/IMG_1698.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5pdd9150p/)
My dates might be wrong but you can look back through this thread for exact dates. I forgot if I tagged the tree with the date I grafted the tree or if I labeled the tree with the date I planted it into the ground.
Simon
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I just cleared out some of the weeds and finally staked up the branch that was drooping to the ground. This Sweet Tart is about 1.5 years old and is in full bloom. I can probably let it hold a fruit or two but I will be removing all the fruit for at least the next couple years. I just wanted to post this picture before I remove the blooms.
(https://s16.postimg.cc/7cyo0aqpd/IMG_1833.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/7cyo0aqpd/)
(https://s16.postimg.cc/idtt5biy9/IMG_1835.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/idtt5biy9/)
Simon
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like the low canopy shape there.
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Thanks Behl, unfortunately it is blooming at much too small a size. I lost at least one growth flush because I grafted it too young. At least I'm learning from my mistakes and pushing forward. I hope others can learn from my mistakes as well:)
Simon
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R D kokan Aplhonso mangoes are multiple-rootstock grafted trees.
https://rdkokan.com/eng/
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The R D Kokan mangoes are also the mulple stoned grated trees
https://rdkokan.com/eng/
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Here’s the DSGed Sweet Tart holding a few fruit. The nubbin fruit with aborted seeds often crack and have significantly more lenticels.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XXVZ67KG/A52-F34-AD-635-E-4716-87-F2-B0-FF17893-B25.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XXVZ67KG)
Here’s an update of the original DSGed Lemon Zest that started this whole thread. It is starting to Bush out a lot.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Lq3HxLby/830-CA88-B-02-A7-40-CC-9-A89-D539-F3-CB06-D3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Lq3HxLby)
Here is a DSGed LZ that I planted in ground at Leo Manuel’s orchard. It was growing slowly and because of the susceptibility to fungal diseases, we decided to remove it. I dug it up several months ago and stuck it in a pot where it began to flush and push a late bloom on one or two branches. This late in the summer heat, fungal diseases are not as prevalent and this tree is holding some very small fruit.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hQFphQSB/7-EC8-B574-5-DDC-4-DE3-A78-A-09-B1-CC88-D7-A6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hQFphQSB)
(https://i.postimg.cc/fJfBTbpG/8-B19-E7-E9-72-C3-4431-B30-E-F6-ED4-F230304.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fJfBTbpG)
I want to emphasize that I Do Not recommend DSGed trees in SoCal or colder marginal climates as the trees get stunted and grow very low and bushy. In warmer locations, the dwarfing effect may be beneficial but not in San Diego unless you are growing in a pot or doing Bonsai.
I do want to say that as a Bonsai tree, the trunk and overall growth and shape of the tree is absolutely beautiful.
Simon
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(https://i.postimg.cc/qtf7f571/811-F509-C-12-BE-4-B1-F-AC6-B-AEC80-A58-BBFD.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qtf7f571)
First time I have tried a double stone graft (Simon you have inspired me to try this) showing signs of life after 1.5 weeks. The scion is from a seedling Sweet Tart (cheers MR) so hopefully we’ll see how it shapes up down under.
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Hey Canvo, in warmer climates, this technique may be beneficial in keeping the tree compact and increase precocity. Hopefully the tree will grow well for you. Please keep us updated!
Simon
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Will do, i did about 5 or 6 different varieties, so should be interesting